Microsoft Won't Vouch For Linux 208
theodp writes "Gov. Christine Gregoire applauded Microsoft's job training partnership with WA state and county government agencies, which calls for the distribution of 30,625 training vouchers statewide during the next 90 days. 'This program [Elevate America] is all about equipping people with the new skills they'll need to get a job in the changing economy,' said Microsoft Counsel Brad Smith, who also made it very clear that getting 'workforce ready' won't involve acquiring any Linux skills. At least this offer appears to be no-cost, unlike the $35 Microsoft requested in an e-mail come-on for 'The Stimulus Package for Your Career' (so much for Smith's and Gregoire's war on spam)."
They ought to provide training for Linux (Score:5, Funny)
Next year could very well be the Year of Linux on the Desktop.
All these people with their outdated Microsoft training. Whatever will they do?
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All these people with their outdated Microsoft training. Whatever will they do?
You're right!!! We need to wipe Linux off the face of the face of the earth and what better place to begin than by destroying those smug penguins. I would like to take this opportunity to encourage all /. readers with outdated Microsoft training to sign on as commercial Penguin hunters on my upcoming expedition to Antarctica. I need lots of people with deadly chair throwing skills.
Re:They ought to provide training for Linux (Score:5, Informative)
Just look at the iPhone - Apple came out of nowhere to dominate the smartphone market in a 2 year timeframe.
Actually, no they don't. Nokia dominates the smartphone market with almost 39% marketshare. Apple was 2nd last time any sales figures were released at around 17% followed by RIM with around 15%.
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Re:They ought to provide training for Linux (Score:5, Funny)
OS X and Linux are STILL just playing catchup to where Windows was 5 years ago.
That could be a good thing. Vista wasn't around 5 years ago.
Re:They ought to provide training for Linux (Score:5, Funny)
OS X and Linux are STILL just playing catchup to where Windows was 5 years ago.
That could be a good thing. Vista wasn't around 5 years ago.
I would argue that neither OS X nor Linux have reached parity with Windows yet: neither have a virus problem or an entire software industry (AV) spawned to support it.
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More money makes politicians better, right? (Score:3, Insightful)
Now that I understand, think I am going to call up my bank and thank them for r
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Interface-wise, Windows is STILL playing catchup to where the Macintosh was 12 years ago.
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OS X and Linux are STILL just playing catchup to where Windows was 5 years ago
Ok, now that I am done laughing, I am still a bit puzzled. Catch up to what? Compatibility in running Microsoft software? Cleverly tricking [consumer] people into giving them money? Yeah, you get back to me on that.
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I wouldn't be so sure. Right now, Windows XP is dominating the desktop, both in the home and in the corporate office. That's right, an obsolete OS which MS is desperately trying to EOL. Vista came out a couple years ago, and no one wants it, especially not corporations which are refusing to give up XP for their workers' desks. Now they're going to try to push Windows 7 and finally kill XP. Will it work? Who knows, but it's a big gamble. With this shitty economy, this is a great time for businesses to
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Not exactly. They have to buy new ones sometime, and then they have to choose what to install on them. For most companies, that means XP, because they have a standard build that everyone's computer runs. They can't have some people running Vista when all their other infrastructure is set up for XP (all their various little utilities that their IT department uses to monitor everyone's machine, for instance). If they change OSes, it has to be done for everyone, so they can't use something that won't run o
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I think it depends a lot on the company. Your company doesn't sound like a very large one, as they typically aren't very tolerant of different MS OSes, especially really old ones like 95. Typically, the largest companies have a "standard build" that they deploy on all desktops in the corporation, and it includes all kinds of crapware (from the user's point-of-view as it slows down the system), such as applications to allow the IT department to take control of someone's desktop during a support call, to mo
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I don't know how you define "a very large" company. But one of my clients had about 800 desktops on my country alone. Not only you will find lots of Windows 95 here (most are XP), but the same is true for almost every site they have around the world. I can't give specific worldwide numbers for this company but, on my country, I would say that about 90% of the desktops/notebooks are XP, with the other 10% composed of 95 and Vista.
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We aren't very typical then! Around 10,000 desktops (or is it 15,000?), standardised on Windows XP Professional SP2, but we give Administrator access to "Domain Users" on every policy controlled workstation, and to take control of desktops we use Microsoft's built in Remote Assistance. People across the organisation have every browser under the sun and every game known to man.
It's a bastard to support.
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Re:They ought to provide training for Linux (Score:4, Insightful)
Wrong again, for the reasons you state.
Vista came out a couple years ago, and no one wants it, especially not corporations which are refusing to give up XP for their workers' desks
So why, pray tell, would they give up XP (when you say the don't want to) for Linux? Why do they want to keep XP? Application and infrastructure compatibility. You're not going to get that (even make it worse) by going with Linux. I'm sorry, but 2009 (nor 2010, 2011, etc.) will not be the year of the Linux Desktop. The only way people would be jumping off the M$ ship is if Redmond were to suddenly implode, sucking into its massive black whole every installation of Windows with it. And even then, companies would still be using XP with bootlegged copies.
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I never saw a company upgrading their computers because they were switching Windows versions. Yes, it can happen, but I never saw it.
On the other hand, I saw several companies switching Windows versions WHILE upgrading their computers.
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Hey stupid, Red Hat, Novell, and other all sell professional support for their versions of Linux. Stop trolling.
Selling Digital Shiney != Selling Digital Literacy (Score:5, Insightful)
I am sure this sounds like typical fanboyism, but have you ever listened to someones excuses for not wanting to learn to read, write, or learn basic algebra? It is the same excuses: It won't be relevant to the career I want, I get along just fine speaking, that's just for smart people. Well, how is it that Linux can be both demonized for being inferior AND only for the really smart computer genius type. Might it be worth a moment to try and see what they see? Honestly, that is what convinced me that despite the fact that it was HARD, and there were things I had to LEARN or even REMEMBER, it was about communicating, building, developing, and working together in a radically different way. I think it took me about a year to get comfortable with Linux, several more before I really began to see why it is used in all the places that it is, and why people feel so passionately about it.
Some people see a computer as a fancy typewriter for papers, a canvas for painting a picture, and an easier way to send letters and pictures than via snail mail. digital music is just another way to listen to music. For all those old things done in new ways, there is something uniquely special that can be expressed through a computer that isn't just a digital form of the same old thing in a different way. There is something uniquely powerful that enables people to fundamentally work different, and only Linux is where people can share instantly and unlimitedly the tools to express yourself and communicate with the world DIFFERENTLY.
Sure, Microsoft and Apple let you push the button, but just like reading and writing, no matter how good the story is told, don't think that is any kind of substitute. You just aren't talking about the same thing. It isn't digital literacy.
But don't worry, sure I am making a big deal out of nothing. You can already read and write, and computers are really just like books where it is easier to fix mistakes without wasting paper. There are nerds out there that take care of this stuff so that normal people can use them like books. Doubt learning how they work would ever be something worth anything to the 'normal' user.
I stopped paying attention when it went from "The year of Linux" to "The year of the Linux Desktop". Didn't anyone notice what happened in between? Further, The Year of the Linux Desktop was 2004 with the release of openSuse. The Year of Linux was 1997 with the Internet. If you care about being literate in a digital age, you know about Linux.
Wish I had made the effort to learn earlier, but guess just happy to be there. Having been there, there is just no way to explain to an adult illiterate person the value of learning how to read and write. I know it sounds elitist, but it really just struck me today how similar the arguments are. Think about it.
Alright, now flame away.
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I think it was intentional - notice that they actually have no figures beside Android? It's possible it was separated because it would unfavourably skew results away from Linux because they have no values for it (although the author of the image claims they created it entirely themselves, they are failing to credit the actual figures, located here [wikipedia.org] and sourced from Gartner).
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That's not exactly an earth-shattering statement there. It's well known by now that MS considers Linux to be a legitimate threat. Next thing you'll tell us that they're worried about Google, too.
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Next thing you'll tell us that they're worried about Google, too.
Didn't Ballmer *BEEEP* kill it already?
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These things take time if you want to do them right.
Re:They ought to provide training for Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody would even bother to mention a competitor who is sub par.
probably not...(he didn't mention Linux in TFA either.)
Plenty of reasons to hate MS if someone wants to, but their stance of 'we aren't spending our money training you how to use someone else's software' isn't a very good one.
And you expected something different? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:And you expected something different? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not only that, but honestly, if people are getting training in Microsoft products, that probably means... Windows, Word, Excel, Powerpoint, etc.? I'm thinking it's not so much Visual Studio / MCSE type stuff, but I could be wrong.
I'm guessing this is aimed at people who are considered unskilled, and after training, will now be able to work in jobs that require basic computer skills that we take for granted. This is not exactly a segment of the population that needs to learn how to use a command-line, or to manipulate strings with sed and awk.
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Yeah, you're right. All GNU/Linux users use command-line interfaces and manipulate strings with sed and awk. Mere mortals should be confined to the Microsoft sandbox. They could never be expected to be productive with anything but the quality products from Redmond.
What are "Linux skills" (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, that brings up the question, what exactly are "Linux skills"? I mean, if it's using a desktop, moving windows around, learning about files and directories, word processing, and spreadsheets, those aren't Linux skills, they are generic computer/office skills, in which case people are better off learning those skills in Windows, since at that level, that is what they will be using in their new job.
When I hear "Linux skills", I think "skills you need to use Linux but don't need to use Windows/Mac." So, yeah, command-line. Man pages. If you can't use a terminal or man pages, you're not going to get far with Linux. Maybe it's possible if you're using Ubuntu on very popular hardware and you never do anything exciting with your computer, in which case the skills you need are just as easily learned from Microsoft.
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Yeah, now that I think about it, I was wrong. Training from Microsoft is the best way to learn to use word processors and spreadsheets.They did invent them after all.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_processor#History [wikipedia.org]
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Thank you for supporting my point.
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Training from Microsoft is the best way to learn to use word processors and spreadsheets.They did invent them after all.
GP made a reasonable point that "people are better off learning those skills in Windows, since at that level, that is what they will be using in their new job." You are just being a passive-aggressive douche.
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If you're arguing that people should learn the Microsoft machine because they control the industry, then you're part of the problem, so I'll take your insult as an indication that I'm doing something right. While it might make sense for an individual to take a "free" voucher from Microsoft because they need to learn Microsoft products for potential jobs, a government supporting Microsoft's dominance isn't good for anyone in the long run.
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If you have an average Linux sysadmins at your office you won't need to do anything with the cli. In a work environment you can easily use Linux without stepping away from gnome. In fact using the cli could be seen as you trying to break out of your approved environment. I've been lucky enough to have Linux desktop (and plenty of Macs) and the Linux(or same applies to mac) users are usually a lot more self sufficient.(And trust me they aren't geniuses).
At home, well, I'm sorry but I see plenty of people
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The people who in an office would on Linux use the command line and Sed/awk are the same people use the command line, edit the registry etc on Windows, they are called network admins or developers?
The people who actually use the computer, use a word Processor, spreadsheet, email, web-browser and various other apps, the operating system is largely irrelevant to them, and the technical parts, are often too technical for them no matter what operating system is underneath
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The people who actually use the computer, use a word Processor, spreadsheet, email, web-browser and various other apps, the operating system is largely irrelevant to them
That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. If the OS is irrelevant, then what will they gain from training on Linux with OpenOffice? Nothing. In fact, they will be better off training on Windows with Microsoft Office, because that's what the vast majority of offices use.
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Yeah, you're right. All GNU/Linux users use command-line interfaces and manipulate strings with sed and awk.
Yup! And don't forget gcc!
It's the MIT/Linux folks that use X Windows...
YMMV I guess (Score:2)
This sounds more like a belief system than a fact. In both cases the consultants know a lot of stuff that is Windows specific or UNIX specific. If you spend most of your time with one or the other you might confuse OS specific knowledge with general computer knowledge.
The best example I can think of is how some people believe that knowing a CLI means you know more about computers.
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Yeah, I've heard good things about PowerShell, though I haven't had an opportunity to use it. Perhaps I will if I need to do some scripting on Windows. OTOH, I generally prefer Python, which runs on a very wide variety of platforms, and gives full access to the underlying system in a portable way.
Although Bash (as well as other *nix shells) is great for interactive commands and short scripts, it's a terrible programming language, so I generally switch to Python when a script exceeds about a page.
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Yes, I've had the unpleasant experience of providing this kind of training through a state agency (not Washington state). The training material will be from existing companies that are Microsoft-approved to do the teaching; the dollars Microsoft pays out will stay within the Microsoft ecosystem. The training will cover basic Windows operations and portions of MS Office (typically Access training is weak or non-existent, while PowerPoint is unduly emphasized). Graduates will have skills in such things as cre
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Wouldn't touch Linux with a 10 foot pole (Score:2, Funny)
Full of holes and viruses...
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If that company fits the definition of a monopoly, yes.
What Will Canonical do? (Score:5, Insightful)
So a company is giving training on their platform, and this is wrong how? Specially, if I understood correctly, it will be "free" (as in, neither the state nor you will pay with money for it, and not the "but they will be brainwashing the masses" type of cost)
What about Canonical try to partner with a state to offer training vouchers statewide and train people on the ways of Linux? That would be sweet, and awesome. Only think would be try to get Linux users with teaching skills for the non-technical. After all, your public wouldn't be grad students.
Re:What Will Canonical do? (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps the objection is that the state partnership gives it the appearance of neutrality? Not sure.
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This could be a great way to use grassroots education (open-source education, if you will) to increase the Linux userbase. Also some great PR, as the LUGs get to put a face on Linux users -- some facetime with Joe Sixpack could really help bring Linux into the
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But I understand you point... however, do you REALLY, REALLY, think it would be smart of our government to provide computer training on ANYTHING BUT the OS that has 90% market share (yeah, out of thin air, but it has to be close, especially for business). I would argue that giving Mac training would be a considerable waste of tax payer money, and it is probably far more familiar to these people than Linux.
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Therefore the most cost effective method would be teaching on Linux and teaching people to quit expecting everything to be spoon fed to them. As a result we might also have a better workforce and less of an excuse to send jobs overseas.
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Re:What Will Canonical do? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, Canonical needs to hurry up and sell it's own version of education exploitation.
You teach someone to breath your brand of air, they might be skeptical to try someone else's.
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Site needs some work.
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learn PowerPoint and Access skills (Score:2, Insightful)
She'd be better off learning a scripting language, that way she won't have to sit there filling in click boxes. Instead let the computer do the job, instead of what invariably happens under the Microsoft paradigm, helping the computer do the work.
Re:learn PowerPoint and Access skills (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, the lady who doesn't know how to use POWERPOINT is going enjoy learning scripting. [huge eye-roll]
Gettysburg PowerPoint address .. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:learn PowerPoint and Access skills (Score:5, Funny)
How do you pronounce 'grep'? I've always just said 'grep'. But I've heard some from out east say it like 'grep'.
One guy from Europe even goes so far as to emphasize it as 'grep'.
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Sup dawg, we heard you like 'grep' so we put 'grep' in your 'grep' so you can 'grep' while you 'grep'
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She probably doesn't want to get laid off again. Filling in click boxes will give her the appearance of being busy and needed.
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Huh? I'm a big proponent of Linux and scripting, but this is silly. Creating PowerPoint presentations is not something that can be automated, just like any other artwork. Yes, PowerPoint is evil, and PP presentations are mostly completely useless, but still, someone who makes PP presentations is not a programmer by any stretch of the imagination.
This is like saying photographers should learn a scripting language so that they don't ever have to use Photoshop. Yes, some repetitive tasks in PS can be scrip
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I love how people are snobbish and then try to prove their geek cred by pointing to scripting languages. Come on, even if you've never done assembly language you could at least point to C.
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This is just utter silliness. To get a job by learning scripting, one has to reach a level today that is likely unattainable to her. This is because scripting by itself is not sufficient (even if she can learn enough). One has to understand the context in which it will be used. That means most likely a decent understanding of either system administration or QA. And you want her to learn that with this voucher?
PowerPoint is used in corporations in thousands of
MS also won't train you on DB2 (Score:2)
LOL (Score:5, Interesting)
Get a FREE retake of a failed exam plus an E-Learning Collection for just $35 USD
Now how can it be a free retake if you have to pay 35 dollars to get it? Is this the same scam like "Free" Credit Report.com that actually requires you to buy a subscription to their site to get the "free" credit report?
In other news, (Score:5, Funny)
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Microsoft refuses to bankroll the "We Are Linux" marketing video campaign.
Tux dodged a bullet there.
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What would Linux skills be? (Score:2, Insightful)
Really, what would Linux skills be? The only things that are really uniform between different Linux distributions are the same elements that are already present in Windows anyway.
And, in general, the common applications available on Linux are also available on Windows. Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, etc.
Re:What would Linux skills be? (Score:4, Insightful)
For server skills, learning scripting is de rigueur if you want to be a serious techie. As Cisco would attest to with its Cisco IOS [wikipedia.org]. The Windows click->select->click_down->select_again->fill_in_a_text_box, is confusing at best, at worst it's difficult to trouble shoot.
Re:What would Linux skills be? (Score:5, Informative)
But as far as I can tell, this Microsoft program is focused on the basic use of standard GUI office applicaitons, not server administration, installation, command line use, tweaking, etc.
The Elevate America program isn't about churning out techies who can troubleshoot network problems, it's about teaching people to use Word.
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Really, what would Linux skills be? The only things that are really uniform between different Linux distributions are the same elements that are already present in Windows anyway.
Any Linux training would be for a specific distro such as the training provided by Red Hat or Canonical which could encompass a whole wide variety of topics. Here's a list of the courses from Red Hat's training course site: https://www.redhat.com/courses/ [redhat.com]
Re:What would Linux skills be? (Score:4, Informative)
The basic concept of a bash shell.
The structure of a typical distribution.
Why exactly a distribution doesn't have to be typical, what makes things appear to be uniform.
The server/client model.
Elements of security.
Logic.
Doing shit yourself.
Slashdotters: regard this as a GOOD thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux is taking over in the data centers of America. You don't WANT competition from voucher trained indviduals. The free market will value your Linux skills, and the scarcity will drive your value up.
Look what MCSE boot camps did to Windows SysAdmin salaries. Just historically chart them with Janco data or Salary.com historical data.
Personally, I want EVERY government training program to be training people is skills the real free market considers useless. Don't you?
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Personally, I want EVERY government training program to be training people is skills the real free market considers useless. Don't you?
Your point is well taken, but I think you underestimate the value of basic computer skills that Microsoft is offering training in. I found the list of stuff they're offering (three [microsoft.com] different [microsoft.com] tiers [microsoft.com]).
So apparently they are offering some more advanced training in stuff like .NET, Visual Studio, etc., but I'm betting that the vast majority of people who find this useful are going to be learning basic computer/MS Office skills, and those are things the free market values highly - in fact, they're pretty much ta
Re:Slashdotters: regard this as a GOOD thing (Score:4, Funny)
Agree with the above.
Being a "guru" has historically meant you will get paid well for doing a job that isn't all that difficult.
I once heard a story (can't cite a source sorry) about a computer tech working in an office for a cable company. Another computer tech from a different office had shown up, and something prompted one of the ladies in the front of the office to reboot her computer. The computer tech from the other office told the lady he could help her reboot (read: windows 98 was the OS), at which point the lady almost had a panic attack and said that John (the computer tech from this office) was the only one that could reboot the computer. John is called on the intercom, comes to her workstation, fiddles with the underside of the keyboard, the back of the computer, and finally restarts it. When asked later why he did all of that just to hit Start->Shutdown->Restart, he replied "job security."
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While that's all quite true, our objectives are very different. You're after the green stuff, we're after a better society. Thus this deal is rotten.
Re:Slashdotters: regard this as a GOOD thing (Score:5, Insightful)
As a citizen, I would say, "no." I don't want the government to waste effort training people in skills that are useless in the marketplace. I do not, in general, want the government to do stupid things. I fail to see how that would benefit me at all.
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Sure... unless you're hiring people
The Gov. of Wash. is in the tank for Microsoft? (Score:5, Funny)
School house versus library (Score:2)
I like these responses to the current unemployment situation. It is a easy way to get people retrained on your product, which may result in co
It can't be any other way (Score:5, Insightful)
Read the classified adds.
Visit your state employment office. Talk to a temp service. Look at the number of jobs which demand competence in MS Office and Windows.
Look especially closely at entry level jobs. Re-entry jobs for retirees and others long out of the job market.
The Linux market is in the back office. Where you will be expected to deliver the sun, moon and stars at the deep-discount price.
This isn't entry level employment. It isn't even your basic up-grade.
It's for the guy with five to ten years experience managing really, really, big, mission-critical networks and systems.
I must have missed the memo... (Score:2, Insightful)
bust isn't Microsoft's Windows being sold as if "grand ma can even use it" all of a sudden one needs to learn how to use a computer... what happened to intuitively poking around and make things work?
I find it VERY ignorant of anyone (including some family members) not having realized that the computer revolution that started in the 80ies is actually something that they need... whether they LIKE it or NOT.
Now a company like Microsoft needs to give incentives to make people use computers? Common... wtf... ta
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what happened to intuitively poking around and make things work?
You might learn best that way, and I certainly learn well that way, but thousands of sales reps, admins, clerks and middle managers can't learn that way.
Not won't, can't.
Just the same way us geeks suck at lots of the things that are intuitive to them.
What is being done vs how it is being done.. (Score:5, Interesting)
First off, extra caution should be kept in mind in dealing with actions from a convicted monopolist.
That said, two aspects worry me:
-Government endorsement of the program. This is just so very peculiar and even outside of the monopolist context, kind of disturbing.
-I suspect they'll be able to write off expenses incurred in this as a donation. However, MS extracts a non-trivial amount of marketing leverage and as such, expenses should not be considered charitable in nature. As anyone who has undergone MCSE training, MS training programs are comprised of a significant amount of salesmanship.
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"First off, extra caution should be kept in mind in dealing with actions from a convicted monopolist."
Or even Microsoft.
Meanwhile, in other news ... (Score:2)
Suddenly we see (Score:2)
30,000 new hotmail.com accounts and 30,000 new Silverlight downloads.
I guess if you can't get people to try your crappy software and services on their own, you can shove it down their throat by gov't mandate. Nice.
On another news (Score:2)
Redhat isn't vouching for Windows either.
In other news... (Score:3, Funny)
I read the article, and it really is as stupid as the summary and article title. Microsoft won't vouch for Linux! OMG, it must be a Microsoft conspiracy against Linux, let's post it on Slashdot! Who seriously expects Microsoft to provide training vouchers for competing products?
In other ridiculous and pointless news...
Oracle won't vouch for SQL Server, MySQL or PostgreSQL.
Red Hat won't vouch for Solaris.
EMC won't vouch for Equallogic.
Dell won't vouch for HP/Compaq, or IBM.
Google won't vouch for Windows Live Search, or Yahoo.
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-- insulting influx of competion, further invalidating prior certs and attendant costs
Freudian slip? It is true, though: nothing would be more insulting to a skilled nerd than to be replaced with somebody with nothing but a Microsoft voucher being paid 1/3 the salary!
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Because it's her own state's most famous industry.
Christmas Trees?
Mod Whoosh (Score:2)
You know, I think someone missed your point when they modded you down.
Someone either has no critical thought skills, or, so insecure about the superiority of one OS over the other that they must mod down comments that fly against their preconceived notions.
Your pick.
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Not only did I expect Microsoft to promote Linux, I expected them to remove all DRM features from Vista, hire Richard Stallman as CEO, drop M$ word in favor of a new product named Visual Emacs, and demote Steve Ballmer to blowing the dust out of Linus Torvald's desktop.