First Nations Want Cellphone Revenue 513
Peacenik45 writes "The CBC is reporting that First Nations in Manitoba want compensation for every cell phone signal that passes through their land because it violates their airspace. The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs recently resolved to negotiate revenue sharing with Manitoba Telecom Services. Ovide Mercredi of the Grand Rapids First Nations says "When it comes to using airspace, it's like using our water and simply because there's no precedent doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do." This move may inspire First Nations in other provinces to follow suit."
Let's hope they win! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:5, Informative)
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Not that I'm suggesting more people get into it - there's more than enough assholes doing it now as it is.
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Yeah, but the government really hates competition in that area...
Not that it's stopped a [wikipedia.org] few [wikipedia.org] people [wikipedia.org] from trying over the years. It's a good way to end up at the end of a rope.
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There is no freedom in the US. Don't believe me? Just steal some stuff and get caught and see what happens.
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In what way is property tax not the same as rent?
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:5, Insightful)
You have the ability to choose precisely to whom you pay rent. You can avoid really bad landlords, as well as landlords who would use, or you find out are using, your rent moneys in ways abhorrent to you. You have no such choice with the government. Additionally, when you pay rent, you receive in return a service you desire and are actively attempting to obtain (a place to stay.) When you pay property taxes, you receive what the government decides to give you; you have little (or no) control over your end. For instance, it is one thing for a taxpayer to receive the "service" of schooling if there are children in the house; it is entirely another when there aren't. It is one thing to pay a tax for television transponders if you watch broadcast television. It is entirely another if you don't. It is one thing to see religions exempted from property tax, thus increasing what you must pay, if you support religion. But if you don't... And so on.
So there are differences. The ability to do much about it, however, is questionable. The larger the area you live in, the less effective your vote is; likewise, the more you differ from the average citizen, the less powerful your vote is. Representative democracy as practiced in the US doesn't serve the minority except as an afterthought, or when cornered.
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You have the ability to choose precisely to whom you pay rent. You can avoid really bad landlords, as well as landlords who would use, or you find out are using, your rent moneys in ways abhorrent to you. You have no such choice with the government.
Come now, if you find a landlord that you don't like, you can't go to another landlord and get him to rent you the first landlord's property at a deal more to your liking. If you don't like the landlord's terms then you need to rent property that isn't owned by that landlord. Similarly, if you don't like the government, feel free to get property in a location not controlled by that government (last time I checked there wasn't a single global government that controlled all property in the world). You have c
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This may work in an abstract, theoretical discussion - but in practical terms it is not even nearly as feasible as walking into a next house for rent, probably just next door.
No wait, the other way around: if you want to rent property that the landlord owns, you accept the terms he's offering, or look elsewhere.
That is simply incorrect. You and the landlord are equals, and you have as much right to change the contract as he has.
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:4, Insightful)
What weird area would that be, I wonder?
but in practical terms a landlord will be in a relative position of power in any such negotiation.
I don't know why you think so. If I talk to a salesman I don't consider him above me. I have a business offer, that's all. I'm not afraid of him. If he says no, it's his right, just as it is my right to say no. If we don't agree I will walk away, big deal.
It is often much easier for him go without a tenant than it is for you to go without somewhere to live.
Do not betray the fact that you never worked as a landlord. The ones that I know would laugh at this statement of yours. They spend 30% of their time sending reports to their bosses on how many units are rented and what are the prospects. If the number drops below a certain number they get kicked out - not that it's hard to find a replacement landlord these days... it's a largely unskilled job. Besides, you are free to return to him later and accept his offer, but he is not able to find you a week later and accept your offer. The renter has a tactical advantage.
You are just as free to try and renegotiate terms with the government.
I understand that you only restate your previous position, but your phrase is worth quoting :-)
Of course you do have another form of recourse with regard to government -- you do have a say in who makes up the government and what policies it pursues.
Huh? What country are you talking about here? Not the USA - the country of Compassionate Conservatives and Democrats Determined To Stop The War, I suppose? (I don't know what happens in .nz where you appear to be from; it could be a True Democracy for all I know.)
a government [...] still provides you with some means to renegotiate.
I would like to know some of them that still work. Soap, ballot and jury boxes have been tried to no effect. The last box is scary, and is not likely to help either. Got other ideas?
A government isn't inherently evil anymore than a landlord is.
A government has more control over you, including control that you personally haven't permitted the government to have - since you haven't signed any papers to that effect after you were born. Contracts with landlords are signed by you, and should be to mutual benefit of both parties, and they can be dissolved when they are no longer interesting. You can't dissolve a "contract" with your government, and this gives the government more chances to affect your life against your wishes.
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:5, Insightful)
a) It's a local tax, not a "US law," and some localities may not have property tax. States specify maximum taxes, but not minimum.
b) You might as well ask "what's the difference between my power bill and my gas bill?" The answer is what you get for your money. You aren't paying the government to use your own property; you're paying them for the services within their jurisdiction -- usually schools, water, roads, police, streetlights, etc.
c) It's a TAX. Likewise, try not paying your income tax and see what happens. That doesn't mean you don't have a right to earn a living, but you *also* have an obligation to help maintain our society.
d) "What happens" is usually that a lein is placed against your property, and that lein must be paid if/when the property is sold or transferred. In some localities, the worst thing that happens is that your name is printed in the local paper. In others, sale is forced, in which case you still get all the money after the government takes its cut.
So how is that like rent again, where you have nothing to show for your money, cannot transfer posession of the asset, and are liable for damages?
People who say you don't "own" the property are using very narrow definitions of the word "own." It could be argued that you don't own anything, since there are no guarantees that someone else won't take it away, and you forfeit all of it when you die. Such definitions are both impractical and misleading.
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Well first of all I need to know who the check should be made out to. I also need a good address I can use so that if I send it via airmail it flies over your house.
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A private land owner getting a decision like that is the kind of thing that would get the constitution amended in the U.S., and would make the Queen angry in Canada.
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:5, Interesting)
Why not?
For a good discussion of that subject, see http://www.amazon.com/Good-Be-King-Foundation-Con
A private land owner getting a decision like that is the kind of thing that would get the constitution amended in the U.S., and would make the Queen angry in Canada.
It doesn't matter what the Constitution says, or what the Queen thinks. Sovereign individuals are just that: sovereign. We are not subjects of the United States government. "We The (Sovereign) People" created the government, and it serves at our pleasure, and we can replace it, destroy it, or ignore it.
The only reason people obey laws and rulings they fundamentally disagree with is threat of force. And right now the US government (and it's accomplices at the State and Local levels) employ more men with guns than any individual can hope to overcome. But that doesn't change the underlying principles. We are all free, sovereign individuals, with absolutely inalienable rights, not subjects.
None of this is - btw - an argument against voluntarily forming associations (call the governments, or whatever) for various purposes where it makes sense for sovereign individuals to work in a communal fashion for the greater good of all. But the point is, any sort of construct of that nature is artificial, created, and cannot preempt the inalienable rights of Freemen.
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In any case, we're not talking about private owners here, we're talking about Native American reservations -- we're talking about sovereign States.
Nope, we're talking about Native Canadian reservations. Not that it changes the argument much, but it's good to get the country right :-)
I'm actually originally from Manitoba, currently living in British Columbia. I'm not sure how it is down south, but here Native issues are a very complex and politically charged area in both provinces. I personally have trouble trying to separate reason from emotion, and my first instinct is often to think that it's a money grab. On one hand, many reservations are in
I have a better idea (Score:2, Funny)
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Contracts are contracts, some countries treat their indigenous populations even more unfairly but when you make treaties you are bound by them, so it seems likely they have a legally arguable point because in auctioni
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:4, Insightful)
What resource is being consumed? (Score:5, Funny)
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Umm, indeed.
How exactly are the First Nations incurring a loss of use? Do they have some demonstrable manner in which cell phone traffic through their airspace is harming them financially?
Re:What resource is being consumed? (Score:5, Insightful)
--jeffk++
Re:What resource is being consumed? (Score:4, Funny)
They are First Nations peoples, and are therefore not required to show any demonstrable harm from any thing any where at any time. They are born harmed, they live harmed, and they will die harmed, and as an evil white slave-driving colonizer you will pay them the required tribute no matter when your ancestors got here and you *damned* sure will keep your mouth shut when you get the invoice. Now get out your wallet, bend over, and shut your goddamned oppressor pie-hole.
By the way, the Right Reverend Sharpton gets here in an hour. Do you have your checkbook on you?
Re:What resource is being consumed? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What resource is being consumed? (Score:5, Informative)
The Straight Dope - Disappearing Bees [straightdope.com]
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We're not having it near as bad in this part of NE as in other parts of the country, but that's an anecdotal statement and not intended as a substitute for scientific evidence.
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Re:What resource is being consumed? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:What resource is being consumed? (Score:5, Informative)
(From the FTA to which you linked:) One team of reseachers at Landau University in Germany discovered that if you put cell phones right next to beehives, some of the bees appear to become confused and have difficulty communicating. They don't die, and people who believe that this happens are apparently too lazy to even read the original research that started people discussing cell phones as a possible cause of CCD. Especially, it seems, when this sort of thing confirms pre-existing prejudices.
Standard boilerplate: In the event that the Parent is determined to be satirical in nature, congratulations! You got me.
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devil's advocate says: spectrum (Score:5, Informative)
So, pray, tell us, what resource belonging to First Nations is being consumed, so that you have less of it the signal has passed through?
To play devil's advocate since half of the posters are bashing Indian people and the other half are foaming at the mouth about how stupid a concept this is...
...spectrum. When one person is using a certain chunk, another can't until their systems are sufficiently isolated enough. Given that the Canadian and US government sold (and continue to sell) this spectrum off for huge, huge chunks of money AND as a result regulate who can use what parts...why shouldn't they be allowed to do the same, if they are a sovereign nation? (if they're not, then that's a different matter.)
There are libertarian-esque viewpoints along the lines of, "oh, we shouldn't control the radio spectrum!" Well, then you end up with your neighbor's radio tower cutting off your portable phone or making your garage door open randomly, and your wireless network causes his car's remote lock fob to not work, and the local fire department's radios are suddenly useless because Bob's Plumbing Supply implemented a digital paging system for their truck fleet.
The world has already settled on cell phone frequencies, but the moral high ground goes to the tribes if Canada didn't consult with them when it signed on to the whole "sure, we'll make cell frequencies in Canada X, Y, and Z", if geography is such that signals from towers in Canada would penetrate to any degree into these territories.
Note, I said the moral high ground- not the practical high ground. The practical high ground goes of course to the cell phone industry and Canada...
Re:devil's advocate says: spectrum (Score:5, Funny)
Let's see if the current POTUS can shed any light on that question...
"Tribal sovereignty means that; it's sovereign. I mean, you're a -- you've been given sovereignty, and you're viewed as a sovereign entity. And therefore the relationship between the federal government and tribes is one between sovereign entities." -- GWB
The devil has a point (Score:3, Interesting)
It is also true that when two signals occupy the same frequency (as far as can be distinguished, and allowing for the fact that bandwidth is very literally the width of the radio band used), those signals WILL interfere with each other. This is not just true of signals of comparable strength, although that's when you start to really notice it for analog signals. For digital signals, see most of signals theory.
Now,
Maori Spectrum Charitable Trust (Score:5, Informative)
Ultimately, spectrum is a valuable shared resource like any other. If governments are making money from selling it and they have treaty obligations to indigenous populations they're probably going to have to share that revenue. Of course it all depends on how strong the original treaty is. In New Zealand, the Maori kicked some serious butt when the Poms arrived. They negotiated a fairly strong treaty and consequently they have significantly more legal rights than, for example, Australian Aborigines.
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I am a member of a First Nations group, and I have many clues about how this stuff works. I am not an idiot, nor are the rest of the First Nations of North America. I know a good bit about wireless networks and information technology as a whole, and I feel that this sort of thinking is one of the major stumbling blocks facing both the United States and Canada, not only in regard to the First Nations, but also to people of Middle Eastern
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We s
Desperation (Score:2, Interesting)
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Hey, if I can be prosecuted for decoding satellite TV photons I'm not considered entitled to, why can't I object to photons being sent across my property?
Re:Desperation (Score:5, Funny)
A tinfoil teepee?
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Fine. (Score:4, Insightful)
And they should be charged for any rain water that evaporated from somewhere else.
Let's total up these charges...wow, looks like they come out even!
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On the east side of town, surrounded by Wichita, is a little city. Little, literally, like maybe four blocks long. If you find it and zoom in on google maps [google.com] it's completely taken up by the third zoom level from the top.
They sat on what is really the main east/west road through the entire city. Of course they halved the speed limit, had their own police force, and Eastboro was known as the biggest speed trap in the area.
Stop the insanity. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Stop the insanity. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Stop the insanity. (Score:5, Insightful)
Spike: I just can't take all this mamby pamby boo-hooing about the bloody Indians.
Willow: The preferred term is...
Spike: You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and you took their land. That's what conquering nations do. It's what Caesar did, and he's not going around saying, "I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it." The history of the world isn't people making friends. You had better weapons, and you massacred them. End of story.
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Only if he loses, I guess.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial [wikipedia.org]
I wonder how long it'll be until we start accepting the truth and quit our denial of scientific, historical, and other important facts for political reasons.
Re:No genocide (Score:5, Insightful)
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States could start on this. For example, if someone has the right to open a casino on tribal lands, give that same right to the folks with property off of tribal lands. If a tribe member gets a
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These people should be embarrassed.
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Re:Stop the insanity. (Score:5, Informative)
We (or our parents) had a choice of coming to North America. The Indian nations were here, recognized by the crown (Queen Vicky, lor bless her!) as sovereign nations within the British Empire and their land claims recognized. Then some trumped up judge in London decided to write law from the bench (a.k.a. "activist judge") that said that aboriginals had no claim to their land. In direct violation of treaties and the ruling of the privy council. The government of the day said "What harm could come?" Well, as New Zealand and Canada learned, acting on an invalid judgement is a legal time bomb and as a result, modern Supreme Courts in NZ and Canada have said "That ruling should have never happened -- the land claims and treaties are in tact".
This case isn't about what you think it. A bunch of commissions over the years pointed out the bloody obvious: life on the reserves suck because they were systematically neglected and restricted by the Indian Act on how they could earn a living and still be allowed to live on their land (Part of the goal was to erase the identities and land claims of the original Indian nations and "Westernize" them). So a couple years ago, the Feds and provincial ministers got together with the native bands to figure out how to change things so the native Indians can become self-sufficient and agreed to the Kelowna agreement [www.cbc.ca].
An agreement the current Conservative government unilaterally decided to break. This little stunt is probably going to be the first of many public actions. As some have said, it's going to be a long, hot summer in Canada this year...
(Note, I am not a Native Indian, but a real honest-to-goodness Indian (half actually), but I grew up with native Indians and have great sympathy for them. I also live in Canada and pay taxes so I'm not some unemployed, liberal hippie who won't have to pay for the settlements.
Re:Stop the insanity. (Score:5, Interesting)
Life on reserves is difficult, and I would say that native people are the most disenfranchised in Canada (to Americans reading this: they get treated with the same respect that black people get treated in the southern states.) However, I have seen no evidence that spousal abuse happens on the scale you claim.
There are ONLY TWO examples I can think of in all the media I've seen.
The most familiar to
My home town was next to a large reservation and as a result my high school had a lot of native students. There were some real nice smart kids among them, and I can just about guarantee that none of them went to university. Can't blame them of course, if you had never seen a single example of someone like you actually succeeding in an educated profession how hard would you pursue an education?
If people are really interested in native americans succeeding give them some damn role models! Have a doctor or lawyer show where a primary character is native, smart, and doesn't start talking about native rituals or ancient wisdom every chance they get. Heck even a native Brittney Spears or Brad Pitt to show them they can have sex appeal as natives (there's a reason that many native kids in my school started emulating black hip-hop culture).
I almost hope they win... (Score:4, Interesting)
Seems like a very similar argument could be made against laws that prohibit decrypting signals that pass through one's property
Fair is fair, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Little known fact (Score:5, Funny)
Now you know!
And next? (Score:3, Insightful)
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Not a problem... (Score:2, Interesting)
Oh, did we mention that costs for OUR electricity, gasoline, wood, metal, use of our roads, telephone lines, groceries, banking services, medical services, fire services, and police services for natives on band land have doubled in price?
You give an inch and they try to take a foot, this will never stop until we put a stop to it. They get all the benefits of regular tax payers, without paying the taxes, PLUS they want additional perks.
Even the majority of the my native friends think it
WTF??!? (Score:2)
Solution: build giant Faraday cages around their land. No cellphone signal inside, no problem.
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Will this ever end? (Score:2, Insightful)
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I don't know about a silver spoon, but they are completely bought into the cycle of welfare dependency. Any pretense that they are living their traditional lives is a farce; they are welfare bums. The most merciful thing that a first-world nation can do for them is to annex all of their land and end their special welfare status. This would force them to join th
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Re:Will this ever end? (Score:5, Insightful)
While I agree the current system doesn't work (in fact, it's absolute garbage which likely exacerbates the problem), pretty much everything else you've said is crap, IMO. I've been to quite a few reserves in Manitoba, and I don't see very many silver spoons in people's mouths. There are plenty of reserves that are absolute holes, where residents don't even own the crappy thirty year old run-down trailers they live in (not allowed to own them on some reserves, from my understanding). No sewage, no garbage pick up, no pavement, mud, no jobs, a laissez faire attitude by the RCMP toward crime (hence lots of juvenile vandalism, arson etc.). What's the option? Move to the city and get a job? Kind of tough when the immediate assumption by too many people, yourself included (I'd guess), is "lazy Indian expecting free hand outs.".
AFAICT, it isn't "current land claims they are proposing", but existing agreements they want honoured. Personally, I want my government to keep its word, even if it costs me. Some of these treaties are fairly recent (government agreements with natives during the world wars to get them to fight etc).
And since when did non-violent civil disobedience become "terrorist antics". You might as well paint Rosa Parks with the same brush.
If 45% of your taxes are largely going to the Indians, you need a new accountant (either that, or I need yours).
being single, white, male and in my thirties, I can speak out, but I have no recourse, I want my government to honour its agreements. Who knows, it might help.
Indeed. (Score:3, Funny)
Have them prove it (Score:2)
Other side (Score:2)
Also, any wind and rain that goes through the land should also be taxed. These are important commodities too. Rain waters crops, and wind generates power using those windmills. They better pay taxes on any rain landing on their land, and any wind passing through, that did
what, casinos aren't enough? (Score:2)
that explains it
not enough fat old people to milk for pension checks in the tundra, eh?
what happens now (Score:3, Insightful)
2. First Nations installs signal blockers;
3. the signals (using a feature that is inherent in this mode of communication) use neighbouring air to route around First Nations' air;
4. First Nations realise how stupid the whole exercise is
how did I forget... (Score:3, Funny)
6. NO profit.
Reality check. (Score:4, Insightful)
That being said, WTF? They are asserting a "property right" that has been rejected via common, statutory, and international law time and time again. A nation can control physical objects that enter their airspace, but not energy. It's like RFA/Radio Marti - nations may not like broadcasting radio waves into their territory, but there isn't dick-all they can do about it except bitch and moan and try to jam it. But in this case, jamming would be a cure worse than the cause - their own members would lose the same access.
I mean, are they serious?
Soon to be... (Score:2)
*This* is the face of unbridled capitalism (Score:2, Troll)
Moderating (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Moderating (Score:4, Insightful)
They have the right to do this (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:They have the right to do this (Score:4, Insightful)
why stop there? (Score:5, Interesting)
http://twm.co.nz/maorispace.htm [twm.co.nz]
"The group apparently told MPs that their air space extended even further - to the outer limits of the universe."
If you're going to be mad you might as well go the whole hog.
The ultimate time share (Score:5, Funny)
Commoditizing Air (Score:5, Insightful)
-The state of New York has filed suit against Ohio for dumping pollution on them through the airwaves http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/mar/mar18a_
-A portion of the electro-magnetic spectrum is going to be auctioned off in the U.S.
"the spectrum is a national resource that should be managed".
PDF: www.pff.org/issues-pubs/books/060309dacaspectrum1
google cache: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:fH_s8JehCyEJ
If governments can make money off the spectrum then why not so-called "First Nation" governments? It really boils down to how much legal and economic authority Indians should have. And it deals with the ambiguity of a people who both want to claim their individuality and distinction from the rest of society, and still be apart of that society, especially when it comes to exploiting natural resources. It's pretty much politics as usual. Seems like the typical having-your-cake-and-eating-it-to mentality.
Spirit Guide = Weasel (Score:2)
Time to end the Indian segregation (Score:2, Insightful)
It's way past time to end this ludicrous segregation of Indians into subcitizens on reservations. I propose that we convert reservations into private property contained within the states or regions encapsulating them, with the tribal council or other group elected by the tribal members given the deed to the property. Furthermore, declare a 100-year statute of limitations on all property disputes nationally.
Seriously, let's repatriate our brothers and put this insanity to rest.
Ovide Mercredi (Score:5, Funny)
We open up the dining room for dinner early for him and his group (about 10 people), as they had to get to a meeting. I get chosen to serve their table. Hey, it's as close to "celebrity" as I've ever seen in this place, so I consider it somewhat of an honour.
So I introduce myself to the table and run through the spiel. I hand everyone the menus, and then explain the day's "special" (not on the menu). I then explain that all entres come with your choice of pototoes. Now, the kitchen prepared different styles of potatoes: sometimes they were scalloped, or oven roasted, but most often the choices were mashed pototoes or a baked potato. I've been working at this place for a couple of summers now, so the words just flow off my tongue automatically. Plus, I'm a bit nervous, so I'm talking a bit faster than normal. On this afternoon, I say the same thing I've said hundreds of times: "All dinners come with your choice of pototoes: mashed or baked."
Mercredi is in the middle of sipping a glass of water. As I say this, he nearly sprays the water across the table, looks up at me, and blurts out, "What kind of potatoes!?"
Instantly, I (and the rest of the table) realize how the phrase "mashed or baked" can sound if you are being a little rushed!
Naturally, the table explodes with laughter, and I just about kill myself laughing too. They enjoyed the meal, but of course had to make a comment on how "creamy" the mashed potatoes were, and wanted to make sure that they weren't the "mashedorbaked" style of potatoes.
I wonder if he still remembers that afternoon?
Am I the only one here... (Score:4, Insightful)
If natives really cared about 'their' land ... (Score:5, Interesting)
This is just another native scam setup to suck money from the productive parts of society so they can stay on reserve.
The natives of canada pay no income tax, and are exempt from various sales taxes if the store is on a reserve. This alone should give them all the advantage they need to get ahead in life
In parts of canada, some native groups have legal rights that no one else in Canada has
Members of the Songhees band have purchased boats and cars with no intention of paying for them. To avoid collection agencies and the police, the stolen items simply stay on the reserve. In the case of one stolen boat, i watched it sit overlooking Admirals Road rotting away unused for probably 20 years. The police won't go on the reserve
For all my life native children from the Songhees band have gotten their kicks by vandalising public and private property and then stepping back onto the reserve before the police can get them. 10's of thousands of dollars have been spent simply to repair a bus stop shelter on Craigflower road that got smashed week after week after week.
How about the Tsawwassen band, that 'sold' (land on reserver is never really sold) fully loaded condos on reserve land to anyone who'd pay, with a beautiful ocean view
All across canada native leaders have been caught in corruption scandals, where millions of dollars have been embezelled while the communities they lead and were supposed to administer with the money are forced to suffer
They have had plenty of time to adapt to the modern world, they sure don't hesitate to use any modern tool like the rest of us including the very cell phones they want to steal money from.
Maybe it's time for native bands in canada to pay back other native bands for stolen land. They'd have you believe they were entirely peaceful until Europeans came along
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Boo fucking hoo. Get a job like the rest of us had to. So your great-great-grandfather got a bum deal. You're still here, aren't you? Adapt! Make something of yourself. You're not *forced* to live in abject poverty. You want to talk about bum deals? Talk to the Aztecs. Oh wait, you can't - the Spanish erased them from history. A lot less complaints from Aztec descendants that way it seems.
If you want to go all Borg-like (and this *is
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