Illumninatus! Author Needs Our Help

Criceratops writes, "Almost every fringe-geek worth their salt has read 'The Illuminatus! Trilogy,' or at least the 'Principia Discordia,' and much of the enlightenment therein came from Robert Anton Wilson. On the eve of 'Xena' being officially named Eris, Douglas Rushkoff's blog reveals that the extremely ill Mr. Wilson can't make his rent. Another testimony to how our society refuses to reward those who enrich it... but not if we can help it!"

If you send him $5, the fnords won't get you.

[fuzzybunny]

I bought the Illuminatus! trilogy in college, and it gave me many hours of pleasure--not just from reading the book, but from games, references, in-jokes, cultural bits and bobs and whatnot.

I don't care what he spends his money on, or why he's in trouble, but this is just one of those little bits of culture, like Snow Crash, Neuromancer, Iain Banks' Culture series and any number of other miscellaneous books that contribute to letting me look at life in a more fun way.

I agree with the guy who said "if a bum asks for money, buy him a sandwich". Where this differs is that here's someone who's actually done something cool and worthwhile and inherently nifty.

Re:

[j_snare]

I'm not saying anything about the guy here, but it's more accurate to say that what's being asked here is not similar to "if a bum asks for money, buy him a sandwich", it's more accurate to "if a bum asks for money to pay for food, you give him money trusting him to use it to buy food." I don't see contact information for his landlord or something anywhere.

There is zero accounting here of where this money is going. Hell, what happens if this request is so successful that he gets enough money to pay his re

Re:If you send him $5, the fnords won't get you.

[David Gerard]

http://www.rawilson.com/ [rawilson.com] - same PayPal address, the author's own site.

Re:

[metamatic]

Obligatory Monty Python sketch [ibras.dk]:

Hello? Ah, Mr Victim, I'm glad to say that I've got the go-ahead to lend you the money you require. Yes, of course we will want as security the deeds of your house, of your aunt's house, of your second cousin's house, of your wife's parents' house, and of your granny's bungalow, and we will in addition need a controlling interest in your new company, unrestricted access to your private bank account, the deposit in our vaults of your three children as hostages and a full leg

Re:If you send him $5, the fnords won't get you.

[Profane MuthaFucka]

I agree completely. Even Jesus commanded us all to do background checks before giving a bum an hamburger. That's why he's the savior. He thought of everything!

Re:

[stapedium]

I'm sure Jesus had background checks in mind when he said,

"Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back."
Luke 6:30

Re:

[Simulant]

Someone please mod parent down. This should most certainly NOT be the first post one sees when clicking the article.

If you don't know the guy or his work then don't send him money. Nobody is asking you to. There's plenty of us fans that will and have, and we certainly don't need or want you looking out for our financial interests.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:

[Captain Splendid]

We call it a dictionary in my neck of the woods.

Payment for his copyrighted work?

[rueger]

Another testimony to how our society refuses to reward those who enrich it... but not if we can help it!"

You posted that on Slashdot, where every third post is a complaint about the tyranny of copyright and payment for the use of intellectual property?

How naive.

Re:Payment for his copyrighted work?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

You posted that on Slashdot, where every third post is a complaint about the tyranny of copyright and payment for the use of intellectual property?

How naive.

You mean the very same slashdot where non-traditional methods of compensating creators are constantly under evalluation and up for debate? Where people recognize that it takes not only time and effort to create something new, but that nothing is ever completely new and that we all stand on the shoulders of the giants who have come before us?

Yes, how naive indeed.

Re:

[Frosty Piss]

You mean the very same slashdot where non-traditional methods of compensating creators are constantly under evalluation and up for debate?

Unfortunatly, his landlord and the local grocer don't take "non-traditional methods of compensation."

Re:

[raddan]

Because the vast majority of those people producing works are raking it in, right? I work for a publishing company, and I can tell you man, that it ain't so. There really are fat cats out there. The people who run the publishing companies are absolutely filthy rich. Authors and musicians regularly get stiffed, mostly because they sign away all their rights-- those are the only terms that most publishers will accept.

Re:

[Rogerborg]

Not really. The Slashdot zeitgeist is that creators should live on pity handouts, like mimes, and only earn as much as they can stuff in their cheek pouches, like squirrels. That fits this begging post rather neatly; I'm almost certain that I recall mime-squirrels forming a core part of Discordia.

Re:

[petrus4]

Not *everyone* who reads /. is a rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth Communist.

I'm aware that mine is a minority opinion around here, but I feel that capitalism has its' place just as much as socialism/communism does. The keyword is balance...like any other problems, financial/sociological ones need to be solved on a case by case basis. Sometimes that calls for a capitalist solution...other times it can call for a more Marxist one...sometimes something in between. Both philosophies are equally useful in different s

Re:

[bhsurfer]

What's wrong with rewarding a "slightly loopy world view"? Isn't that what artists exist for?

I'm not necessarily saying "give give give" in this particular case (although I like his the books and his world view), but I personally feel that life would be much duller without people who have the insight to see things differently and the guts to put it out there for public consumption. Lots of artists & writers have died poor -> don't make the typical mistake of creating eqivalency between *talent* ==

Re:

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I think there is an issue with taking the "slashdot platform" as a whole and using it to assume that slashdotters are inherently hypocritical. The people that argue for abolition of copyright may not be the same people that spit blood when the GPL is violated. I hope no one here is arguing for both because that is hypocrisy - GPL is protected because of copyright law, without it, we probably would not have seen the Linksys router software released, among other things.

Re:

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I hope no one here is arguing for both because that is hypocrisy - GPL is protected because of copyright law, without it, we probably would not have seen the Linksys router software released, among other things.

You don't understand the intent of the GPL. It is a hack of copyright, intended to turn copyright law against itself. The fact that it depends on copyright law is part of that hack. In RMS's ideal world, there would be no need for the GPL because the market would reject non-Free software as defect

Re:

[bogado]

There is nothing "hypocritical" with the point of view of the many people who disagree with copyrights. The main problem is that copyright is not to reward the authors, but to maintain an industry that has not adapted to the new era of the Internet. It is about Disney and others to be able to keep milking mickey and other "high valued" culture and at the same time keeping the reels of film that have the record of many of what our father saw when they were children rot, for they do not have immediate "market

Re:Payment for his copyrighted work?

[div_2n]

I grow tired of the "Slashdot hates intellectual property rights" argument. I get the sense reading the posts here that very few are against rewarding people that create worthwhile material whether it is music, books, programs or graphical art. What I believe the overwhelming majority here protest is publishers, *AA getting the bulk of profits off the backs of creative geniuses. Also, after paying, "we" want to be able to put it on whatever medium we wish to use what we've already paid for. That's it.

Personally, if I could Paypal bands/artists/creators directly for their works I enjoy, I would. Heck, I'd probably pay again for the same work down the road in the right setting. In the end, the amount they get from me would be substantially higher than what their distributors pay. But that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

Re:Payment for his copyrighted work?

[ScentCone]

I grow tired of the "Slashdot hates intellectual property rights" argument. I get the sense reading the posts here that very few are against rewarding people that create worthwhile material whether it is music, books, programs or graphical art.

Of course it's not "slashdot" that "hates IP," it's a very noisy, seldom-challenged group of loons that post comments along those lines. The "you shouldn't get to make money later, off of work you did yesterday" crowd is shrill, carping, ridiculous... but also rarely called on what's wrong with their take on things because they also tend to give comfort to people who are too cheap to pay for their entertainment in general.

Personally, if I could Paypal bands/artists/creators directly for their works I enjoy, I would.

And, as is so often pointed out here, you can. Unless the artist has chosen to do business a different way. Most successful/promising ones would rather concentrate on their art, and hire someone to do all of the paperwork, the promotion, the publishing, the legal crap, and so on. Those publishers are sometimes members of a trade association or two, and those trade associations are the pet demons, around here. But people here keep forgetting that many an artists chooses to personally form a studio or a record label so that they can, themselves, help cultivate and promote new talent, and they quickly realize there's a lot to be said for letting a single entity help with their industry representation and other not-about-the-art-itself activities.

So, if you don't like the business decisions that an artist has made (including the media and related DRM-ish stuff that comes with those deals), don't do business with that artist. Couldn't be simpler!

Update to this story - Money raised

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI there is an update to this posted on BoingBoing yesterday. They were able to raise enough cash to pay for at least the next 2 months rent. Check it out: http://www.boingboing.net/2006/10/03/robert_anton_ wilson_.html [boingboing.net].

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

I feel compelled to repeat what was said on boinboing, it might lead to a change of heart in some:

Anyway, this morning Bob's daughter showed up at his house in tears because she had checked his PayPal account and found money for next month's rent plus more. Bob called me to say that he couldn't believe people would care so much about him and as we talked (which isn't easy for him at this point) he was overcome with emotion more than once. He is so touched and RELIEVED at the possibility of staying in his ho

The predicament of the American Artist...

[MsGeek]

Not everyone can be Stephen King. The Bestseller List is a zero-sum game...there are only so many slots and there are a buttload of writers out there. And the Bestseller List is not the place where the cream floats to the top...it is often the place where the familiar trumps the artistic.

Another thing people seem to be having trouble with is the concept of Post-Polio Syndrome [wikipedia.org]. It's a real malady and it's a real mutha to have to deal with. RAW was born before the Polio vaccine. RAW had Polio as a kid, and he

Quoting the man

[fruey]

Dr Lecter, my candidate for the male archetype of 1951-2000, will never win any Nice Guy awards, I fear, but he symbolizes our age as totally as Bloom symbolized his. Hannibal's wit, erudition, insight into others, artistic sensitivity, scientific knowledge etc. make him almost a walking one man encyclopedia of Western civilization. As for his "hobbies" as he calls them -- well, according to the World Game Institute, since the end of World War II, in which 60,000,000 human beings were murdered by other human beings, 193, 000,000 more humans have been murdered by other humans in brush wars, revolutions, insurrections etc. What better symbol of our age than a serial killer? Hell, can you think of any recent U.S. President who doesn't belong in the Serial Killer Hall of Fame? And their motives make no more sense, and no less sense, than Dr Lecter's Darwinian one-man effort to rid the planet of those he finds outstandingly loutish and uncouth.

On the strength of that, it's not hard to understand how he ends up being on the fringe of society. Even if he does kind of have a point.

Re:

[sacrilicious]

Dr Lecter's Darwinian one-man effort to rid the planet of those he finds outstandingly loutish and uncouth

... and tasty. Don't forget tasty.

Re:

[Nimey]

Bob is a trip. As another poster said, he's opened my eyes to a whole new way of looking at things.

In other news ...

[Kombat]

In other news, another 300 cancer patients died today because they couldn't afford the examinations that would have detected their disease earlier, at a preventable stage. Nor could they have afforded the treatment that could have beaten their cancer, even if they'd known about it.

If you're looking for sob stories about nice people falling on hard times, there are for more worthy cases than Robert Anton. Why don't you stop by the local Veterans hospital, or contact the Children's Wish Foundation, if you r

Yes, but

[Goonie]

Mr Wilson has clearly given a lot of pleasure to many Slashdot readers. So, as a thank you, some of them might wish to ensure that his last few months of his life more comfortable.

If you're looking to do the most good for the most people per dollar, money invested in, say, vaccine distribution or malaria prevention is always going to outweigh helping anybody living in the West. And that includes US Army veterans and sick kiddies (in fact, the treatment of Western children with life-threatening illnesses is arguably the single most overfunded branch of the medical profession). But it's only human to want to help out those who we feel a connection with in some way. And Mr. Wilson's work has made a connection with many Slashdotters. I'm not among them, I haven't read it. But if, for example, Linus Torvalds or Joss Wheedon turned up destitute on my doorstep, I'd help them out (even though in both cases them ending up destitute would indicate some very poor life decisions), to thank them for what they've given me.

Re:

[adavies42]

Ah, altruism. Charity doesn't count if it goes to someone you actually know something about and want to help--it must go to complete strangers so as to eliminate any remote possibility of your benefitting from giving it. What a way to live.

Veterans are worthy actually

[jeffs72]

Soldiers are there to defend the country. It's not really their fault if some jackass president wants to send them half way around the world to take out the guy that tried to assassinate his daddy, is it?

I was in the Army, mainly to turn my life around and get some direction and focus. College wasn't an option for me at the time. My brother hates standardized education and wanted to do something besides work at a McJob so he joined the Maries. My uncle joined the Navy during Vietnam so he could learn t

Re:

[meburke]

I'm glad someone thinks so. The VA doesn't care too much, and all the administrations have tried to reduce healthcare for Vets at the VA. In Houston, we have one of the best VA hospitals in the nation. The digital communications and computer-supported diagnostics and care were top-of-the-line when it first opened. Digital imaging meant that your X-rays were immediately available to any clinic in the hospital, and the record-keeping was superb. Unfortunately, since then they have replaced most of the IBM sys

Re:

[Aim Here]

FYI, that's NOT how it works. Bone up on the Nuremberg trials, from which the legal principles spring from. Obeying orders to commit war crimes (and invading another country is the supreme international crime) is a war crime, no matter if the government approves or not.

Re:

[Nimey]

Pretty much. He and the other guy probably don't know any military people and so it's easier to stereotype than think. I know many military people and they're human just like you and me. There are always the bad sort (see My Lai), but most are just trying to do the best they can, given the circumstances.

Re:

[Kombat]

I've never understood the "If you can't help everyone, why help anyone" arguement.

I didn't say that. I gave 2 specific examples of other people you could help.

Everyone is not equal, and should not be treated as such. I am far more likely to give money to a cultural icon whom I personally respect, than some guy I don't even know.

Why? Because he wrote some books? That makes him worthy of charity?

Let's keep things in perspective here. You're saying that since this guy wrote some books, and is famous, that

Re:In other news ...

[ArsenneLupin]

But instead of giving $25 to random folks, I could give that $25 to someone I know.

$23, darling, $23.

Save 2 dollars, and please him even more by showing that you remembered the number.

Re:

[LunaticTippy]

$25 is twice better than $23.

$ (2+3) * (2+3)

Re:

[ArsenneLupin]

Groovy! Is he cute at least?

Ancient Greeks need cash too!

[Speare]

I've heard that the ancient greek civilization has come on hard times too. Since they were the ones who actually created the Eris / Discordia mythology, shouldn't they get a spare dime too? I mean, it's nice to rework some old public domain ideas into a story and copyright it (see Disney), and it's nice to be generous to your fellow man, etc., but I don't get this call to action slashdot article stuff.

I wish it were easier...

[Delusion_]

...to find out what way is the "best" way to buy published works that funnels the most money back into the content creator's pocket as opposed to the distributor.

Sometimes, it's fairly easy - I prefer to buy CDs at concerts, where a band I already know I like (hey, I did pay for a ticket after all) and possibly some new opening band(s) gets a substantially larger cut of the profit from the sale. Some music and books are also available at the creator's website, particularly if the group or author has a "van

So... why can't I just pay some more taxes...

[neuraljazz]

So that EVERYONE can have good enough, free healthcare, rather than choosing some single lucky soul.

Also, we do value authors - that's why copyrights run out after 25^^50^^75 years so that creators^^^^^large businesses can make money inperpetuity.

Enlightenment Window Manager?

[cab15625]

Is someone asleep up there in the editing room? What does a sci-fi author have to do with the Enlightenment [enlightenment.org] window manager? He may have written some nifty (well, strange) books, but AFAIK, he's never coded a epplet in his life. (click the article's icon if you don't know what I'm talking about)

Re:

[rayde]

i read through the wikipedia article, poked further through the related links, and only then became enlightened that this guy pretty much has nothing to do with Enlightenment.. :-\ bad use of topic icons.

Wrong enlightenment

[Virak]

Am I the only one who was a little confused by seeing the Enlightenment [sourceforge.net] logo up there?

Re:

[fatboy]

Nope, I was too.

Who's fault is it?

[lixee]

An excerpt from "Wealth of nations" by the father of capitalistic economics, Adam Smith.

"Wherever there is great property, there is great inequality. For one very rich man, there must be at least five hundred of the poor, and the affluence of the few supposes the indigence of the many. [. . .] It is only under the shelter of the civil magistrate [read, the police] that the owner of that valuable property, which is acquired by the labor of many years, or perhaps of many successive generations, can sleep a

Degenerate case

[istartedi]

In a degenerate case like this, theory breaks down. In an economy of two, say, travelers stranded on a desert island, money is unecessary. If they were Adam and Eve, and had children, that would be radicly deflationary unless they had a printing press too. Even then, they wouldn't have a need for money as we know it until they had managed to populate the island to some critical number.

I'm not disagreeing with your main point though. I'd much rather be a trailer park resident in the modern US than a ki

RAW changed my life.

[LazyPhoenix]

My first exposure to RAW was through the Principia Discordia and the Illuminatus! trilogy, but it was his other books that changed the way I think about a lot of things, Cosmic Trigger and Prometheus Rising especially. Quite honestly, I consider him a great influence, and I suspect there are a lot of others like me. That is why this call for help is meaningful here and elsewhere, and why I'm sending a donation.

Those of you who haven't read any of his work and also feel some sort of strange self-righteous lack of human kindness to the point of telling a terminally ill man to "get a job at Wal-Mart" might do well to never grow old, sick, or widowed.

testimony blah blah

[Mr. Underbridge]

"Another testimony to how our society refuses to reward those who enrich it."

Society votes with it's wallets, and deems itself insufficiently enriched.

Damn...

[$1uck]

That man is one of my few heroes. Normally I'm of the opinion that I'm doing the world a favor/all the charity I can afford if I'm taking care of myself and not sponging off others. Call it low self-esteem, call it selfish-loutish or anti-social behaviour. I think I'll have to go and order what few books of his I don't have, maybe buy a few I already have and make them this years xmas presents.

After having read these post and the article...

[StressGuy]

I'll comment:

Some of the post here state that, there are people who are worse off and less well known and perhaps such support would be better directed toward them.

Other post questioned why he was receiving private care when he could go to a state hospital.

These are valid points, no argument from me...largely because I don't know much more about him other than he needs help.

However, I'm having difficulty seeing how it follows that it is "morally wrong" or "hypocritical" to provide assistance to someone when:

1) You know they need the help

2) They have, in some way, help you or otherwise enriched your life in the past

3) Maybe you just simply admire them.

If you are moved to help this guy, do so and don't let anyone here call you a "hypocrite". If you're really curious, perhaps use this to learn more about his particular afflicition. Who knows? Someday there may be a fund in his name for this very purpose.

Lance Armstrong's got the "Livestrong" foundation...I wonder what his would be called?

Re:

[Megane]

Lance Armstrong's got the "Livestrong" foundation...I wonder what his would be called?

[badtaste] Diescordian? [/badtaste]

It looks like he got enough fnords sent to him for now. I'll keep a watch for a second wave of requests. No need to stuff his PP more now and either get it shut down for "fraud" or to attract the unwanted attention of a Three Letter Agency.

Speaking of which, just what kind of problems does he have with the IRS anyhow? The Wikipedia page doesn't mention it, other than them being a b

Re:

[Rydia]

The fund would be called "universal health care," and would come about when we realize that: a) our health is too important to trust in the hands of a for-profit organization, b) "voting with your wallets" is nice romantic nonsense, but betrays the fact that we as a public have extremely little control over said corporations (as opposed to a government which can be moved if need be... see 1994), and c) insurance works by insuring as many people as possible, to counter claims at one point with non-claiming m

Is there anyone here who hated the book?

[OakDragon]

God bless the poor guy, and I do feel sorry for him... But I own a copy of this trilogy, and honestly, I tried to read it and couldn't. It was just crap (my opinion, obviously). So I was a little surprised to see so many people here who admired it. Is there anyone here who found it unreadable, like me?

RAW's Life After Death

[Jon Luckey]

Robert Anton Wilsons autobiography is titled Cosmic Trigger. There were several updates/sequals including Cosmic Trigger III: My Life After Death [amazon.com]

What the subtitle refers to is the false stories that he was found dead in his home on February 22, 1994 that propagated on the internet and the insights he had from watching the situation unfold [rawilson.com].

I really hope that again the current story is also unfounded. But I am afraid its not, so I will be sending a check.

For all those 'the hippy should gedda job' folks, th

Also: Former "Playboy Advisor"

[joe_n_bloe]

R.A.W was an editor at Playboy for several years - his name was on the masthead. Somewhere I have some of those issues. The letters he read must have been great inspiration.

Schrodinger's Cat and The Trick Top Hat were two of the funnest/funniest books I read in my late teens. The Illuminatus Trilogy didn't do much for me, but I do make jokes about the Dog Star from time to time.

Now, I'm going to go Burger.

The Justified Ancients of Mu Mu

[ettlz]

I call upon Drummond and Cauty to come forth. The KLF once burnt a million quid made with the indirect help of this mythos.

Come on, people!

[v1x]

Most of the arguments here are whether or not this person is worthy of receiving such donations. Considering that disease & death will spare none of us, and that bad things do happen to good people, how many of us can say with utmost confidence that such a thing will *never* happen to them? I've never read any of his books, but then again, to say that he does / does not deserve anyone's help based on that is just plain callous. Helping, like many other things in life, is not about you. If you are able & willing to help, kudos to you; and if you are not, the least you can do is not to try & discourage those who are.

Re:I Don't Know, Man

[WhyteRabbyt]

[i] Get a job as a stocker at WalMart and stop being an anarchist/conspiracy theorist (hey, that's what it says on the linked Wikipedia page) refusing to do actual work for money in our 'system'.[/i]

Kind of hard to do that when you're housebound and only have a few months to live, y'know.

And where on earth do you get the assumption that he ever refused to work for money?

Re:I Don't Know, Man

[onion2k]

Get a job as a stocker at WalMart

Did you miss the bit where the article says he's extremely ill? I imagine that a shelf-stacking job isn't a viable option.

Re:I Don't Know, Man

[aplusjimages]

I always find it funny when people try to discourage people from doing good deeds. If you want to start a fund for Robert Jordan I say do it. I won't write a short essay on how I think it's a waste of time and how there may be some hidden agenda to buy drugs with the money.

I understand discouraging people from replying to spam or supporting terrorism, but to discourage people from helping another person just seems like time wasted on everyones part.

Re:I Don't Know, Man

[ischorr]

Several things that you supposedly read should have tipped you off.

Summary: "the extremely ill Mr. Wilson can't make his rent"
Article: "whose *infirmity* and depleted finances"
Article: "Bob is a human being in a rather painful fleshsuit"
Article: "I refuse for the history books to say he died alone and destitute"
Wikipedia article (which you say you read) depending on when you read it:
Wikipedia: "This author who has changed the lives of many is dying of post polio syndrome"
Wikipedia: "Robert A. Wilson is currently under hospice care at home with friends and family." ...But you didn't actually read any of this (you even quoted the article wrong after being called out!!). You skimmed a few things, jumped to conclusions, then rushed to get first post by being about as much of an ass about it as possible - revealing how much you're just a sad, sad, excuse for a human being.

RAW himself did not ask for money. A fan of his, however, did. Your high horse died about 2 posts ago, *get off of it*.

Also, you've never once taken a homeless guy into a restaurant. Liar.

Re:

[Descalzo]

No, he's asking for donations to medical research.

Re:I Don't Know, Man

[I(rispee_I(reme]

I haven't read any books by him, so maybe I'm really missing out on something. But instead of sending him money, I'd rather send him a letter advising him on how to live a better life throw a steady income job.

You seem supremely qualified to comment, sir. I told Emily Dickinson practically the same thing: "Shut up with that emo shit. It's not paying the bills, and they're looking for a girl to do needlepoint in the village." Sadly, she didn't listen to me, and she died poor, alone, and unappreciated.

Re:

[minus_273]

" I told Emily Dickinson practically the same thing: "Shut up with that emo shit. It's not paying the bills, and they're looking for a girl to do needlepoint in the village.""

Clearly you have not read Emily Dickinson. Shudder.. cringe..

Re:

[iion_tichy]

"Get a job as a stocker at WalMart and stop being an anarchist/conspiracy theorist (hey, that's what it says on the linked Wikipedia page) refusing to do actual work for money in our 'system'."

Perhaps you missed the part where he is 74 years old and extremely ill?

I also would like to know more about the why and how he got into his situation, but your comment really seems to be far over the top. Not everybody who is poor is "refusing to do actual work".

Re:

[qortra]

I think the reason is already given: he's ill, and he's receiving hospice care or medical care. Even with insurance, medical bills add up REALLY QUICKLY. For that matter, I don't know how good writer's guild insurance really is (or even if such a thing exists), but I imagine is probably isn't stellar. People can blow through fortunes (like 7 digit fortunes) in a matter of months if there are expensive procedures to be done. I don't know what he makes from book sales or how much he had saved, but he'd ha

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

Even with insurance, medical bills add up REALLY QUICKLY

Sorry for going off topic here, but what do you mean? Isn't the whole reason for medical insurance that your insurance pays the bills for you?

Coming from a very different coutry to yours (where we care for our infirm, rather than deride them like the first poster) I find it hard to get to grips with some of the concepts.

In fact sometimes I think I'd prefer not to know. I've often wondered what happens when someone needs life-saving medical treatment bu

Re:

[supasam]

Even if you have insurance, they can drop you at any time for what ever reason, they can refuse treatments, and they will just cut you off at a certain point. It's pretty much bullshit.

Re:I Don't Know, Man

[HiThere]

It's not bullshit, but they are businesses with the morals of businesses. And they do drop people unless contractual obligations require that they not.

That said, authors don't have much of a guild. I'd be surprised if they had a group insurance plan. Bob Wilson was crippled with polio as a child, and though he was able to overcome it for years, he also was subject to recurrence (of muscular weakness, not of polio). If he's now both old and sick, he probably can't walk. I'd be surprised if he was insurable for this problem, as it's ... well, not congenital, but definitely pre-existing any possible insurance.

OTOH, a good health plan is contractually obligated to NOT drop you. Such exist. The good ones seem to do reasonably good jobs. (And hospitalization is STILL expensive.)

As for his savings...Bob's books may have sold well for a long period of time, but he was never at the top of the charts. He's never been wealthy, and often lived very near the edge. I'd be surprised if he had any savings. (I'm also fairly certain that the finances would have been managed by his wife, Arlen, who's been dead for years. Also a writer, "relatively successful" [i.e., she's been published in places that paid money, but I don't think enough to live on].)

Writers, painters, musicians...all of these can expect to end life as paupers...if they're lucky. There are exceptions, but that's what they should expect. If Bob was local I'd want to offer him a room and meals. I don't know if I'd be able to, but I'd want to. Unfortunately, he moved away decades ago, and I've lost track of him.

Re:I Don't Know, Man

[miyako]

It's actually a rather complicated situation, and I'm not sure anyone in the US really understands completely how it works. Here is my attempt to explain it anyway.
Basically, medical insurance in theory is supposed to help protect you in the case that you have a bunch of medical bills. In practice what actually happens is that insurance companies either require deductables on the order of thousands of dollars per procedure (where every tiny thing is it's own procedure) or they simply don't cover very much.
Furthermore, unless you're extraordinarily healthy, once you get past a certain age it can be very difficult to get health insurance at all, because insurance companies are afraid you might actually use their services.
Finally on that note, even crappy insurance is extremely expensive- and unless you work for a company who helps pay for it, or are rich, you can't afford health care.
Now, for people who don't have health care, there is Medicaid and Medicare. These are basically government insurance. The problem is that over the last several years they have been gutted to the point where they are even more impotent than they used to be.
Whether you have Medicare or Medicaid or some insurance plan, the bills quickly add up and people are usually left in a situation where they can't afford any more medical treatment. From there the options depend basically on what exactly the person is dying of.
If you get shot/stabbed/dismemebered/etc. Then basically you can walk into any hospital in the US and they are required to give you "stabalizing treatment" - which basically amounts to stopping you from bleeding to death before they take your billing information. For people dying of long term terminal diseases (e.g. cancer, organ failure, etc.) then there are free hospitals. The idea is that when you go to one of these hospitals they take as much as they can get from you, and leave it at that. Of course these hospitals also generally have abysmal quality, so nobody who can afford to pay any medical bills goes to them, so they never get new equipment/have the budget to hire good doctors/etc. This makes a viscous sort of cycle. These also tend to be in rather bad areas in the bigger cities- they mainly serve to tread drug overdoses and gunshot wounds. If you live in a small town and need to get to a hosptial like this- too bad.
Your other choice aside from the free hospital is to go to a hospital that is equipped to give you some of the best medical care in the world, but it basically involves liquidating all of your assets and turning them over to the hospital, then getting as much on credit as you can, then when you have no more to give they cut you off of treatment and transfer you to the free hospital. These hospitals generally aren't equipped to keep up the level of treatment you've been getting, so at this point generally they dope you up on pain killers and let you die.

Re:I Don't Know, Man

[VJ42]

Thanks for the info; you've also made me feel infantely better about the NHS, from whom I got anti-epileptic brain surgery absolutely free when I was 15. According to my then conultant only 12 of these particular operations are carried out per year at that hospital (the world renound Great Ormond Street children's hospital). Had we had to pay for it, well I think my parents would still be paying back the debt now, a couple of years short of a decade later.

People continually moan about the state of the NHS, but it's safe to say I'd rather become ill here in the UK than over there in the USA.

Re:I Don't Know, Man

[somersault]

Amen. I've broken a few bones, and had plastic surgery on my ears on the NHS. I guess I should stop being annoyed at how much the government taxes everything, since the NHS sounds so much better than anything Americans will have anytime soon.. :S The pricing does sound extortionate too though. Drug companies must be making a killing (no pun intended).

Re:I Don't Know, Man

[jdcook]

This wasn't bad but I think some clarifications might help:

1) It is extremely important to distinguish between employer-provided insurance and privately-purchased insurance. The theoretical purpose of medical insurance is not, as you say, to protect you in case of a large number of bills. It is to pool risk and collect enough money from each insured to cover the cost and a bit of rake-off for the insurer. The purpose of medical insurance *companies* is to make as much money as possible. Therein lies the rub.

Employer-provided insurance tends to be pretty good. Most people work for large companies and these companies use their bulk purchasing power to get something very close to this risk-pooling arrangement. People trying to buy insurance on their own, however, are completely at the mercy of insurance companies. They will face possibly ruinous exclusions, especially the nebulous "pre-existing condition", and a great many hurdles. The insurance companies work hard (which is expensive) to find reasons not to pay the claims of these people.

2) The long-term problem is a bit similar. If you work for a long time for a large company, you are generally well covered until Medicare (*not* Medicaid) kicks in. Increased worker mobility (i.e. decreased job security) makes the insurance problem greater.

3) Medicare hasn't been gutted (though there was a debacle recently with the new PHARMA welfare act, err, new drug benefit) because it is for old people and old people vote. Medicaid has always been pretty crappy because it is for poor people.

4) The US already has a decent program in Medicare and a very good program in the Veteran's Administration Hospitals. However, expanding these programs to universal coverage is politically impossible at the moment.

Even the mediocre NHS is far better (even Canada's crappy system is better though France's system may be best of all) from a coverage per dollar standpoint. The administrative costs associated with the US system are extreme and provide no medical benefit to anyone.

I remain convinced that the US will eventually embrace single-payer under a less corrupt Republican administration (a Nixon-to-China moment if you will) when big business republicans realize they cannot afford it any longer and faux libertarian (that's a bit of snark since I don't believe there are any *real*, i.e. uniformly consistent, libertarians) entrepreneur types realize that the dangers of leaving a job and foregoing insurance can make entrepreneurship far too risky. (I'm not entrepreneurially inclined but if I were, I'd worry a lot less about losing my house since I could always go back to the rat race and rent than losing my insurance since I might get cancer while uninsured and simply die).

'markets' vs. 'socialized medicine' vs. ...

[doom]

This is a pretty good summary of the present situation (though as others have pointed out the world looks different if you're a 'professional' with medical perks).

The next question would be "Why do we put up with this?" rather than go for a centralized, government run medical system. Back in my more libertarian days there were roughly three arguments that I was impressed by:

1. If you artificially reduce prices, demand goes out of control, and you pay for it with long lines (queues).
2. A capitalistic

Re:I Don't Know, Man

[@madeus]

Now you tell me that even if you have health insurance, there's no guarantee that you won't be turned in to soylent green?!

Can anyone explain how your country works in this regard?

As difficult as it is for those of us in less barbaric countries to imagine, you are indeed hung out to dry if your health insurance runs out, and it's only good up to a point. Usually the limit is up to a specific dollar value - or covers treating a given illness for a limited time span. The maximum amount a policy covers it varies depending on the premium you are willing to pay / can afford each month.

Where the system falls down is when someone has a serious long term illness, such as Cancer, and the treatment works, you can easily end up running out of insurance cover 2 or 3 years down the road. When that happens, you have to sell all your possessions (house, car, TV) to pay for the drugs (which are really expensive - often hundreds of USD worth a month). When the money ultimately runs out, and you are lying bed ridden, flat broke in low rent accommodation - having been forced to sell all of your valuable possessions just to stay alive - you simply stop getting the medication you've been getting and you are left to succumb to the illness (that is, to die).

If you have a partner, then they are left with nothing when you die - not even the house you used to live in (because you'll have used up all the money from the life insurance pay out that would already have been made when your condition was diagnosed on the medication you needed to keep you alive), making it a double tragedy for them. I don't know how someone is supposed to get their life back together after something like that.

"Emergency rooms" are required to treat all patients brought in (regardless of insurance or ability to pay), so when you are at the final stage of your illness at deaths door (days, or hours before the end) they will give you medication to control the pain, but that's the extent of the free treatment available (and you / your partner will still get a hefty bill for any services rendered, they just can't - by law - refuse to treat you even if they know for sure you can't pay it).

Scary stuff.

Such is the price people seem willing to pay in return for lower taxation and greater spending power at the checkout.

Re:

[Nimey]

The best part? The fundies in power who won't let such terminally-ill people commit suicide or be willingly euthanized because it's against their religion, and they're not willing to step up and pay for it. If I'm ever in that situation, I'll do my damndest to check out before my family is destitute from paying for my meds. Prolonging my life for a short time isn't worth that much.

See the ruckus over Oregon's death-with-dignity law. See der Fuehrer and congressweasels scrambling to take away Oregonians'

Re:

[geoffspear]

If a man with a gun comes into my house and wants to take all of my possessions, I'd certainly want eeryone in my community to pay money to some other guys with guns with nice cars with flashing lights who might want to try to stop him. I may even wish they'd hired enough of these guys with guns to provide a deterrant so the bad guys with guns would think twice before breaking into people's houses.

But why would my neighbors, who haven't been threatened by anyone with guns, want to be required to pay for t

Re:

[Knuckles]

why should others want to do so or be required to do so

Very simple, because the less desperate people you have in a society, the better life is for everyone. The result of the US mentality of every-man-for-himself is that even the wealthy live like prisoners in their own communities with walls, fences and security guards.

Re:I Don't Know, Man

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

The well off person who has millions in the bank to cover all medical eventalities has likely been fortunate enough to have been born with a skill that has enabled them to obtain that money.

Funny. Statistically speaking, the well off person was born into a family that is well off. The secret to wealth is to be born to rich parents, then, since you have money, the money condensation principal kicks in. You can just loan money to those who were born poorer and collect interest.

I've been in tears since this thread started and the thought that America can stand by at let its citizens die sends shivers down my spine.

While the stated goal of pretty much any government program, or lack thereof, is to make people's lives better, we all enter into that with a lot of preconceptions and principals. Americans are predisposed towards independence and each person taking care of themselves. This is reflected in our lack of socialism and in our stance on drugs and firearms. Much of Europe is more predisposed towards placing responsibility on a central authority as is reflected in their beliefs about those same topics. Neither is optimal for quality of life, but it is pretty obvious that overall, Western Europe is closer to the ideal.

If you want to hear some scary numbers take a look at the number of Americans that are financially ruined by medical expenses. I think the last time I heard it was something like 50% of all personal bankruptcies were due to a medical problem.

Re:

[Requiem Aristos]

Sir.

I find your suggestion to "work hard, live a fiscally responsible lifestyle, live below your means" to be about as helpful as Marie Antoinette's suggestion that the poor should "eat cake if they have no bread". I suspect you have no idea of the magnitude of health care costs.

I work hard, and live within my means. I'm fortunate enough to make more than a goodly percentage of the population while not similarly scaling up my expenses. Assuming all goes well, and my reasonable investments provide a reaso

Re:

[Abcd1234]

That is horrific. Why doesn't anyone do anything about it? I can't believe that a majority of the population would rather let people suffer than have to pay a bit extra in tax for a public healthcare system; especially when the future is uncertain for everyone. Anyone could end up suffering, even the greedy.

Communist!

Re:

[YrWrstNtmr]

I can't believe that a majority of the population would rather let people suffer than have to pay a bit extra in tax for a public healthcare system

Basically, we don't really trust the government to not screw it up.

(Any government, not just the current bunch of fools)

Re:

[VJ42]

Well, the Majority (all?) Europian governments have managed it; even us here in the UK. Canada and Australia seem to manage aswell. I'm sure you over in the USA don't have standards of governance all that far behind the rest of the western world. If you're anything like us, you'll continually complain about your national health service, but I'd still rather become ill here, than over there in the USA.

Re:

[Mr. Slippery]

Basically, we don't really trust the government to not screw it up.

Yeah, so instead we let a bunch of corporations (which are creations of the government) screw it up.

The free market works well when buyers and sellers meet in the marketplace with equal power, full knowledge, and all costs accounted for in the transaction. These assumptions do not apply to basic medical care: there is a tremendous power and knowledge differential, and if my neighbor can't get treatment for his bird flu or TB (or even f

Re:

[voice_of_all_reason]

Book? Drug addict? Stephen King?

O, Discordia!

Re:I Don't Know, Man

[shivan]

if you would have bothered to research just a little, you would've found out why

The general deal is that he's suffering from the more morbid symptoms of post-polio syndrome, can't really walk, has trouble swallowing, and is extremely frail. He has friends serving as fulltime nurses and aids, but doesn't have family capable of providing support. The IRS and medical bills have also worked against his solvency.

Try getting a job with those symptons ..

Re:

[alexgieg]

In a perfect free-market society, the remedies one needs would cost less, because they wouldn't be patented, being thus manufactured by lots of companies. All goods, including houses and terrains, would cost less, because there would be far less taxes on them, and there would be no additional annual taxes either. Houses would cost way less to build, because the company who makes them would be able to contract extremely cheap labour to build them (persons who would love to receive these low wages, because th

Re:

[mmkkbb]

And as a secondary effect, the lack of environmental protections and labor protections would result in a wasteland controlled by those with the cash, with the bonus that the only power available to those without money is labor. No thanks.

Re:

[gentimjs]

Actually all of that is nonsense. In your so-called "free" market, the costs would be exponentially high as we have seen with attempts at free-market systems where the wealth continually travels upwards to the most greedy who find ways to exploit excesses of labour (cheap or otherwise) and charge "whatever the market will bear" for the product... thus, for things that people actually need like homes and food, the maximum possible will be charged, and NOT a fair price. And before you try and claim that score

Re:

[AcidLacedPenguiN]

yeah and probably like 5 years later too. . .

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

So, I have a job and insurance

He was paralyzed by polio. Try keeping your job and your insurance when you can't even move. I know we have the medical leave act, but I think "I need medical leave for the rest of my life" doesn't count. Even if he had insurance on his own, they'd have almost certainly raised his premium until he was forced to drop it, and if not, he probably hit that 1-2 million dollar lifetime maximum pretty quick by the time he got to 74. Too bad his family isn't rich, the Republicans w

"Compassionate Conservativism"

[gentimjs]

A compassionate conservative sees a man and his family eating grass on the side of the road. The CC pulls over and asks "what are you doing?" the man replies, "we are too poor to eat, and cannot find work because of ethnic and religious discrimination". The CC tells him "thats terrible, hop in my car" so the man and his family joyfully get in the car hoping for a hand-up for a job offer of some kind.

After driving a ways, the man asks the CC "So where are we going? Do you know where I can find work?" to which the CC laughs, and says "Oh no heh, I dont have a lawn mower, and the grass is much taller in my yard."
..........
They never understand.

Re:Cue all the anarcho-capitalists....

[vertigo]

Hello,

>So, I have a job and insurance, because I don't want to be like this guy.

Trust me, there's no risk you'll ever be like that guy.

Hail Eris!

You do what you want, we'll do what we want

[spun]

No one is forcing you to do anything. We are pressuring you. There's a difference. We are playing on your compassion for other humans. Sick, I know, trying to get you to care about others, what's wrong with us? Don't we understand what America, the free market, personal responsibility and Social Darwinism are all about? This man is sick. Society doesn't value him, he deserves to die.

Okay, enough sarcasm. Here's the deal. We live in a free country. You are free not to help this man. But we are free to call y

Re:

[Oligonicella]

There are no fictional books that are 'required' reading, despite the plaints of those who have read them and think others that choose not to "wouldn't grasp them anyway". Pompous, and probably wrong.

I write, but I do not expect that to float me unto death. I work as a backup to what I enjoy.

He appears to have sold books. That puts him way the hell ahead of most writers.
 

Key word: Consider

[gentimjs]

Key Word: Consider.....

Re:

[gentimjs]

So your choice of what car you purchased or what fast food joint you ate at last was compulsary forced on you personally, at gunpoint, by Mike Dukakis and his tank I suppose then?

Re:

[kfg]

. . .if you drum up money for someone else, you might have a better chance of succeeding if you ask people to donate to personal accounts of that person. . .

According to Bob's own website the account is his personal PayPal account.

KFG

Re:

[ArikTheRed]

Wow, thats the most innocent sounding question I've ever heard of Slashdot! I imagine a small child, ragged hat in hand and doe-eyed, speaking with a whistle through a lost front tooth.