BBC Tests Pre-Commercial Toshiba Fuel Cell Laptop 138
nbannerman writes "Fuel cells have been talked about a lot recently, but Toshiba have finally demonstrated a working model. The BBC News website provides some interesting background on fuel cells, but does carrying a warning for the future; 'Toshiba's phase one fuel cell shows how near, but also how far, the version is from being a commercial reality.'"
Ready. (Score:1)
As a general rule... (Score:2, Funny)
Off-topic of course, but I couldn't help it. Is he trying to polish his shoes with that thing, or...? Sorry, mod me down if you really need to.
Oh, fuel cells are cool. Your car wants one.
A gas powered laptop! (Score:1)
I guess fuelcell is a little bit better than regular gas engines, but what is wrong with batteries? (electricity can be made in bulk, cutting waste, and hell, they could create that with fuelcell technology.
Re:A gas powered laptop! (Score:3, Interesting)
Two words: energy density. There is no battery technology currently available or in development, that I know of, which approaches the energy density of petrochemicals or methanol, and probably of compressed hydrogen as well. So there is a lot of interest in producing a compact power source which runs on a high-density fuel, because you could increase the capacity of the computer's power source beyond what would be practical on batteries.
Right now, it seems like in laptops you ha
Re:A gas powered laptop! (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't know if the laptop companies are thinking about this, but I tend to travel alot by plane with my laptop, and the fuel cells are probably quite dangerous in the wrong hands.
Re:A gas powered laptop! (Score:1)
I don't think fuel cells will let you carry on anything you couldn't carry on anyway.
Re:A gas powered laptop! (Score:2)
Re:A gas powered laptop! (Score:1)
JON
http://www.tsa.gov/public/interweb/assetlibrary/P
Re:A gas powered laptop! (Score:2)
Of course there'd be a minor issue of engine capacity escalation among competitors, noise regulations, smog, parking...
Never mind.
Re:A gas powered laptop! (Score:2)
Besides, you can use a hybrid system: battery for the first 30-40 minutes and only then start fuel cells.
Refulling issue? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Refulling issue? (Score:3, Insightful)
Thats right, wander around until you find fuel(a.h.a Electricity)
Re:Refulling issue? (Score:1)
I dont wander around looking for an outlet, there's three right next to my desk.
Re:Refulling issue? (Score:2)
A duck !
Sorry, got carried away there...
Re:Refulling issue? (Score:2)
Re:Refulling issue? (Score:2)
We had to use solar cells, but they are not very useful on high longitudes in spring and autumn (we were here http://maps.google.com/?ll=67.399308,68.139267&sp
Refulling issue? Alkalines are better. (Score:2)
Most people would probably replace the alkaline cells less than once every 12 months. And even with very long periods between use, the alkalines will stay usable for 8 years.
Contrast this with lugging around methanol cartridges which is A) a seriously scary toxin, B) another
Re:Go with Apple. (Score:2)
For the first 3 months whatever you say is true.
After 1 year their charge capacity drops to 55% dramatically just like that !
So your famed months-between-charges would be days-between-charges on a laptop that has been sleeping.
And secondly iBooks don't suspend or hibernate. They consume very little power keeping everything in memory while they sleep.
Re:spindly arms (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:spindly arms (Score:2)
we only use the 12in 4lbs models - they get ~3 hours of battery life.. and a spare battery is only around 80$ the laptop around 700$ so all in all sure they could pay 2g's for a laptop with 6 hours of life.. or we can buy cheep (but decent and rugged) laptops and a spare battery for much less.. and if they destroy them (which some have done) i don't feel as bad.
i know people who have bought dell and alienware laptops.. sure
Re:spindly arms (Score:2, Funny)
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=2607 [dailytech.com]
Why does an 11 year old have a brand new iBook anyway!!! I didn't even get a freakin' Speak'n'Spell until my 16th birthday.
moonshine battery? (Score:1, Funny)
10 Hours (Score:2, Interesting)
probably costs like an ink-jet printer cartridge too. But all it has to be is 'the best' and a certain class will be lining up to buy carts at $49.95 a pop, on company expense (think petrochemical and pharmaceutical industries).
Cost should be an issue (Score:1)
Re:10 Hours (Score:2)
Just the thing to use in First Class Seating (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Just the thing to use in First Class Seating (Score:2)
Re:Just the thing to use in First Class Seating (Score:1)
Re:Just the thing to use in First Class Seating (Score:1)
It's also a matter of availability (Score:1)
Re:It's also a matter of availability (Score:1)
Should not be the main criterium (Score:1)
Efficiency, heat production and ease of transport and storing should be equal factors. And since lithium ion batteries have been around for much longer, I assume things like efficiency are better.
But I look forward to see these alternative sources of energy become better and more common via the usual vicious circle; things become better->they beco
Re:Just the thing to use in First Class Seating (Score:1)
Perhaps it would be easier if they used ethanol fuel cells [physicsweb.org] as you could just board the plane with no fuel and then order a vodka or gin and pour it right in. (The real fun would begin when the lady in the next seat looks over in alarm and you just say, "Well, the poor little bugger doesn't like to fly, so I'm just giving him a little something to calm his nerves.")
Re:Just the thing to use in First Class Seating (Score:3, Funny)
And if it's a MacBook, and you've installed SmackBook Pro [medallia.com], your seatmate may decide to let you have the entire row to yourself.
--Pat
How it works (Score:5, Informative)
Re:How it works (Score:1)
Learn more about fuel cells - read the whole article!
Re:How it works (Score:2)
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=187087&cid=154 37669 [slashdot.org]
Huge (Score:3, Insightful)
I actually thought they were a lot closer than this. From the photo, it actually looks larger than a litre, I'd say closer to 1.4. In any case, fucking huge, and nowhere near practical. They need to shrink it by more than an order of magnitude to be workable.
Re:Huge (Score:2)
I'm not surprised; fuel cell hype is rampant. It's a worthy pursuit but quite a way from actual consumer sales.
That rather large device shown here is good for 10 hours running a pretty average laptop. The next generation prototype shown is a bit better, and just as unworkable for the bulk of the laptop market; too damn big.
These are prototypes; give it half a decade of development and it could pay off.
Re:Huge (Score:2)
"practical" is relative (Score:2)
Totally agree with you - I am not about to trade in my laptop for a different computer that has a 1 liter (or larger) fuel canister attached to it. Most of the
But you know who might find it practical? Anyone in the middle of nowhere, away from electric outlets, away from plugs. Field researchers, for instance, could really benefit from something like this. And powering your laptop or cell phone with a fuel cell
Re:"practical" is relative (Score:1)
Yeah, but what's really cool... (Score:3, Funny)
huhmnnhuhhmhh
Re:Yeah, but what's really cool... (Score:3, Funny)
Dear God! What are you doing with those marshmallows? Having sex with them? You sick bastard!
Safety and technology (Score:3, Insightful)
The fuel cell is loaded with sensors. When suddenly picked up and shaken, anti-tamper sensors lock down the fuel cell to avoid leaks.
As it produces heat from the reaction, internal sensors make sure that it does not overheat.
What of the odds of those various sensors failing (and you know that they will for someone, somewhere) and what kinds of damage is caused when they do?
Re:Safety and technology (Score:2, Insightful)
If you read up on the method on how the cells work and other technology it may or may not put more confidence in you. Besides, systems fail and dangerous stuff is often carelessly misplaced or misused (I once discovered a Sidewinder missle on a beach). They're going to make it as soun
Re:Safety and technology (Score:2)
Suppose this thing had a catastrophic failure. You might get a bit of liquid on your pants. It will feel a bit cool and if you wait a few minutes it will all evaporate leaving no trace.
As for spilling it on your laptop, if you do so consider it an opportunity to wipe the grime buildup off your keyboard. You know all those expensive cleaning solutions? Guess what's in many of them.
Re:Safety and technology (Score:2)
You should be hiding under your bed now, shaking, because this isn't very different from the modern lithium-ion batteries:
The rechargable lithium-ion battery required nearly 20 years of development before it was safe enough to be used on a mass market level
and
Since the lithium metal [...] is very reactive and might cause explosion, Li-ion cells usually have built-in protective electronics and/or fuses to prevent polarity reversal, over-vo
Re:Safety and technology (Score:2)
You might want to avoid Lithium-Ion based batteries too. They are highly volatile, especially during recharge and require "intelligent charging systems" to charge safely.
This thing doesn't sound any more complicated to monitor than standard battery technology.
Re:Safety and technology (Score:1)
Forget about (Score:2, Funny)
Explain that to the airport police..."Really, it is a liquid fuel for my LAPTOP! Ow, that rubber glove doesn't help much for pain does it?"
Re:Forget about (Score:2)
Re:Forget about (Score:2)
Re:Forget about (Score:2)
Still, security is fine with hassling individuals, but they don't like to get too uptight with the real paying customers (business people).
Re:Forget about (Score:2)
What is this "might"? As far as I can tell, they all do...
Here is a picture of it during boot up (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Here is a picture of it during boot up (Score:2)
Re:Here is a picture of it during boot up (Score:1)
'Hybrid' laptops? (Score:1)
In case you guys aren't planning to do so... Patent pending!
Re:'Hybrid' laptops? (Score:1)
Re:'Hybrid' laptops? (Score:2)
you use the meth as a energy storage medium (as it has a higher energy density than Li) it would buffer power through a capasitor to power the laptop but if you plug it in it back charges and converts the waste back in to meth for use later - just like how we use Li batteries
i am sorry but if i can't plug this thing into an outlet to charge it - it is well worthless
Re:'Hybrid' laptops? (Score:2)
sure if it was using a fuel that you can find all over the world then your good - but it isn't.. they are going to have to create a whole new industry for this to work.. where as if it could be recharged via AC power outlets then well.. they all of the sudden become far more appealing
Amp hours per Kg? (Score:2, Insightful)
Summary: Not Practical :( (Score:4, Insightful)
Clearly you could have a Lithium ion battery that lasts many more (20? 30?) hours at the same size...
Maybe by the 3rd generation (and a decade from now) it will be able to compete with standerd batteries, assuming standard batteries haven't improved by then this technology might be worth a second look (which is unfortunately a possiblity, given the slow progress in battery technology)...
Re:Summary: Not Practical :( (Score:2)
What do you do when your 10-hour Li-ion battery runs out and you're nowhere close to a power source for the next 3 days?
Would you rather carry 10 of those 5-lb batteries, or one 5-lb fuel cell station and 10 ink jet cartridges?
Re:Summary: Not Practical :( (Score:1, Insightful)
Hand-crank recharging instead (Score:1)
I'll tell you why: a hand crank solution has no expensive consumables to sell to consumers over and over. Also, there's the social stigma of physical effort in public.
Re:Summary: Not Practical :( (Score:1, Informative)
Although the non-consumable portion of the fuel cell does make up some considerable bulk, the 10 hour runtime was generated by only 100mL of fuel.
Put simply, by carrying a soda can-sized refill of methanol, there would be plenty of energy to run for over 40 hours.
If they made this device as a modular power source with 12V output, it could easily be used right now with your choice of energy-efficient devices. I personally could envision using this device to powe
Re:Summary: Not Practical :( (Score:2, Funny)
welcome to slashdot, you are apparently new here.
I don't think you critically read the article.
People here don't even read the articles, much less in a critical fashion.
Maybe you are not new here, and instead just confused. People here are very often critical of the articles that they have not even read... if so, please disregard my email, if not, please add me to your newsletter.
Re:Summary: Not Practical :( (Score:2)
Re:Summary: Not Practical :( (Score:2)
No, that's the problem with fuel cells. You have to go out and buy stuff, whereas you can just plug in your laptop when you're not away from a socket (and power sockets are everywhere). You can use that laptop while it's recharging, you know.
Re:Summary: Not Practical :( (Score:2)
Re:Summary: Not Practical :( (Score:2)
Not it if it ends up like ink cartridges, where you pay a lot more for a lot less because you have no alternative, what with vendor lockin and all.
Perhaps I'm just being pessimistic, but I don't see any reason this won't go the way of ink cartridges.
Battery technology (Score:2)
Battery technology isn't getting better anytime soon. We've gone from lead to zinc to lithium metals in an attemt to get the most electrochemical potential for the least amount of space/weight. But we're out of periodic
Re:Summary: Not Practical :( (Score:2)
20+ Hours on 4 AA Batteries (Score:1)
Re:Summary: Not Practical :( (Score:2)
Why someone is not producing these for laptops even at their current size if they actually work seems absolutely insane to me.
Re:Summary: Not Practical :( (Score:1)
Re:Summary: Not Practical :( (Score:1)
I rest my case.
Fuel cells for laptops already available (Score:1)
Re:Fuel cells for laptops already available (Score:2)
I wonder.. (Score:2)
Doesn't look promising (Score:4, Insightful)
It appears increasingly unlikely that fuel cells will ever happen. Although fuel cell technology continues to improve, the improvement is very gradual. It's not clear that fuel cells are progressing faster than new battery technology, in which case the two will never converge.
I should also note that the fuel cartridge (100ml) by itself, which powers the laptop for 10 hours, is not that much smaller than a battery. Even if toshiba drastically shrank the size of the surrounding electronics, making the entire cell the same size as a battery, it still would have no advantage. You would still have to carry around extra fuel cartridges (with methanol) for additional power.
Bear in mind that you wouldn't be able to recharge the cartridge by just pouring in more methanol, or buying new fuel cartridges at a convenience store. Methanol is extremely poisonous even in very small amounts, and medically significant amounts are absorbed through the skin. Therefore the fuel cartridges will require expensive and durable equipment to prevent the leakage of any fuel whatsoever when removed from the laptop. Probably the fuel cartridges will be expensive and will have to be recycled and disposed of properly.
Re:Doesn't look promising (Score:1)
Automobiles have been promised for a long time now. As an example, I remember that a production automobile was promised by Benz to be available in showrooms by 1880...then 1882...then 1883...then 1885... And we still wait.
It appears increasingly unlikely that automobiles will ever happen. Although automobile technology continues to improve, the improvement is very gradual. It's not clear that automobiles are progressing faster than new steam technology, in which case the two will ne
Re:Doesn't look promising (Score:1)
Err...What? Automobiles arrived before they were promised. There were no auto showrooms in 1880.
Re:Doesn't look promising (Score:1)
Re:Doesn't look promising (Score:2)
For political reasons the refillable ethanol based fuel cells already in labs in different forms can't be used - hence methanol. It's been more about regulation and the rules changing than practicality. Perhaps the next round of rule changes will make it so it will have to be butane fuel cells befo
Re:Doesn't look promising (Score:1)
Saw this bit, and it reminded me of something :-
Oh yeah, Microsoft Vista is what it reminds me of.Just shows, - ole Bill ain't the only boy who's takin' his time.
Yeah, but... (Score:1)
For all of you complaining... (Score:1)
Re:For all of you complaining... (Score:1)
Not likely to happen where I live, we have these giant hydroelectric dams here and up in Canada in the Rockies that supply 98 percent of o
windup (Score:2, Interesting)
How to stop the fuel cell laptop user in a crowd (Score:1)
How to spot the fuel cell laptop user in a crow (Score:1)
He's the guy to whom the girl says: "Is that a fuel-cell laptop you have, or are you just happy to see me?"
FuelSell Power (Score:3, Interesting)
The noise from the fuelcell will disappear when microfluidics are used to pump the fuel and exhaust. That will also drop the size (volume), and even the weight. Though 0.792 specific gravity methanol will weigh about 792g (1.75lbs) in the liter capacity, so the total cell will probably continue to weigh about the same. Which is a lot less than the weight of 10h in electric batteries.
A really interesting gain could come from integrating the cell reservoir with the rest of the volume of the entire notebook. Fill the spaces currently filled with air with fuel (protected of course by a tough insulating/nonflammable layer), and the overall volume of the notebook could remain about the same, especially considering the airfilled shockbarrier protecting LCDs. Clever engineering could circulate the waste heat in the fuel, much as modern car fuelpumps are cooled by the gas in the tank in which they sit. Really clever engineering could harness the waste heat to circulate the fuel not just to the heat exchangers, but also through the pump, for efficiency increase (and heat reduction).
I expect that Toshiba is already testing its microfluidics version privately. PR like the BBC review will generate excitement for even a clunky first introduction. A quiet, smaller, lighter introduction will exceed those expectations and increase sales with even better reviews.
Maybe the improvements will only come out from up Toshiba's sleeve gradually. They might patent them early, then introduce them to pump their sales curves. I don't believe they will introduce a noisy fuelcell as early as 6 months from now, so they surely have more than they're demo'ing. Which gives me more confidence that they're going to pull this one off.
Now if it will just run on sake, and give massages, Toshiba will have retaken the "Personal Computer" from the dull interpreters who have made it a boring commodity.
An affordable technology! (Score:2, Informative)
Methanol-powered laptops? (Score:2)
stand alone box would be better (Score:2)
with a cable to the laptop. This would mitigate problems of noise, fire hazards etc.
Ooooo sleek (Score:2)
Why is it not using hydrogen? (Score:2)