Wind Powered Freighters Return 261
thatoneguyfromphoeni writes "It appears that sails could return to the ocean's freighters soon. Newsweek is reporting on a technology to assist with cross-ocean travel. From the article: 'SkySails' system consists of an enormous towing kite and navigation software that can map the best route between two points for maximum wind efficiency. In development for more than four years, the system costs from roughly $380,000 to $3.2 million, depending on the size of the ship it's pulling. SkySails claims it will save one third of fuel costs.'"
These guys must have solved a major problem (Score:3, Funny)
Re:These guys must have solved a major problem (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:These guys must have solved a major problem (Score:5, Interesting)
Solar wind, gravitational plots, and air winds all represent very subtle and dynamic forces that can't be directly controlled (unlike aerodynamic forces and engine thrust, for instance). If these guys are able to accurately navigate through winds and do it all more efficiently (and faster, hopefully) than currently available, the navigational community could apply their methods to a lot of different methods of navigation. It's like finding a better turbine blade - jets, powerplants, and watercraft could all benefit.
Welcome to the 80's (Score:4, Informative)
Also Popular Mechanics ran an article on this like 4 months ago. In fact it was on the cover of that issue.
Re:Welcome to the 80's (Score:2)
I actually proposed something similar for providing and shipping desalinated water in my blog [jaytv.com] with Now All I Need Is A Giant Baggie..." [jaytv.com]just a week ago.
Re:Welcome to the 80's (Score:2)
Yup, and I think they'll find that materials technology and engineering have come a long way since those plans were first drawn up; sails aren't a new idea on modern ships but the parameters have been changed quite a bit so some tweaking will certainly need to take place. Good plan though- it's about time this idea came up again _^^
Big kite tech has come a long way (Score:3, Interesting)
The sky sails people seem to be trying to get
The Flettner rotorship (Score:5, Interesting)
I was looking this thing up... (Score:2)
The advantage is it could go various directions easily, and with no need for a huge keel. But apparently, yeah, it sucked.
Most interestingly, the ship moved on the same principles that make a curveball curve.
Re:The Flettner rotorship (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Welcome to the 80's (Score:5, Interesting)
Then oil prices came back down, those batteries turned out to be harder to design than they thought, and Exxon discovered they weren't very good at managing high tech. Back to business as usual. And here we are again...
Re:Welcome to the 80's (Score:5, Informative)
I was trying to remember where I somewhat recently read about this technology and thank you for reminding me that it was in Popular Mechanics.
I can't find a link to the Popular Mechanics article (I think it was in the february 2006 issue) but you can read more about this technology here http://alt-e.blogspot.com/2005/02/hybrids-hybrid-
It is pretty amazing how much more efficient the sails can make a ship, from the last link I mentioned:
"cargo vessels can increase their speed by a minimum of 10% -- in the example given speed is increased yet by 2.25 bends, equaling 15%. Alternatively by using the SkySails propulsion fuel savings of up to 50% can be implemented."
It showed that using 1200 litres of fuel per hour a normal ship would cruise at ~15.5 knots and a skysail enhanced ship would cruise at close to 18 knots, not too bad of a speed gain. If the skysail ship wanted to cruise at 15.5 knots instead then fuel consumption would drop from 1200 litres per hour to around 550. That is just awesome and I really hope this goes into wide use where it is feasable to use it.
Re:Welcome to the 80's (Score:2)
Seems like if it's sturdy enough to last a good decade or so, the savings would be quite handsome
Re:Welcome to the 80's (Score:2, Insightful)
Just like they bought up the patents for that 100 mile per gallon carbuerator and hid it away in their 'secret idea warehouse' in Area 51.
Re:Welcome to the 80's (Score:3, Informative)
So you're telling me that as demand decreases and supply remains constant, price increases? I think an econ professor's head just asploded.
Seriously, though, I really do hope that this becomes a common technology. I oversee some aspects of a domestic supply chain, and you would be surprised to know how much money is spent geting
Re:Welcome to the 80's (Score:2, Informative)
a quick search of the popsci website found this:
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/whatsnew/bc0b041c051
Re:Welcome to the 80's (Score:2)
I wonder about the article photo (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I wonder about the article photo (Score:2)
Re:I wonder about the article photo (Score:2)
Re:I wonder about the article photo (Score:2)
Re:I wonder about the article photo (Score:5, Informative)
Having the pulling force closer to the center of the ship will decrease the needed rudder force for correction; using the rudder creates friction, so that's best avoided. Another advantage of having the ropes mid-deck makes it possible to lower the kite on deck, much more convenient than fishing it out of the waves after use.
Several hundred tons? (Score:2)
Tugboat attachment points (Score:2)
They will be tacking back and forth behind the parasail.
Re:Tugboat attachment points (Score:2)
Re:Tugboat attachment points (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I wonder about the article photo (Score:4, Informative)
Re:I wonder about the article photo (Score:2)
You'll never be able to go to windward (i.e., more than 90 degrees away from downwind), because even with a steerable kite the force on the line will always have a positive component downwind...but you could very likely go 45 degrees off downwind.
rj
How big? (Score:2)
Re:How big? (Score:2)
Re:How big? (Score:2)
Re:How big? (Score:2)
Re:How big? (Score:5, Informative)
According to http://www.skysails.info/index.php?id=66&L=1 [skysails.info]
To get an increase of 35% (the max claimed by SkySails) would mean a 3.5 million euro investment, that's a lot of crewman salaries even at union wages and less than the Skysails implementation would cost.They have some interesting performance calculations on their website too about how much sail produces how much energy. http://www.skysails.info/index.php?id=89&L=1 [skysails.info]
Launching the sail (Score:2)
Good point.
My best guess is to make the sail inflatable, and fill it with helium. That at least gets it up and in the right shape. Orientation is yet another problem.
Re:How big? (Score:2)
the advantage is in running a shorter great-circle route (more or less) independent of seasonal winds and currents
Re:How big? (Score:2)
If you RTFA you would find out that this is made to assist the diesel engines on the ship, not get rid of them completely. If the wind is not going in a direction that can help you on your course then you don't use the sail to assist you. This could possibly save ONE THIRD of current fuel consumption, so even if you did h
Presumably that one-third savings is over... (Score:5, Interesting)
Likely this will still have value even if just used when the wind is positioned conveniently. Certain legs of round trips are certainly likely to benefit greatly from sail power.
Very cool. I'd certainly love to see that out on the ocean.
Re:Presumably that one-third savings is over... (Score:3, Interesting)
Wind like ocean currents is free. Airliners already try to catch tail winds when they can on the jetstream here in the US, and I guess its common for other countries as well. I believe that tankers already take advantage of currents as well.
What is interesting is that people used to be grateful to spend long periods (months?) of time to travel across oceans with an acceptable death/sickness rate of what about 30% to do international travel. Now, if an airline is delayed 30 minutes for an international fl
Re:Presumably that one-third savings is over...wat (Score:2)
Actually, that's exactly what it's called -- a ground-effect airplane or a ground-effect aircraft. The advantages are there -- safer in the event of a catastrophic loss of power (due to only falling a few hundred feet at most), able to move huge masses with more conventionally-sized wings, and less detailed training for the crew. However, I recall that fuel efficiency and noise become a problem, as does dust kick-up on overland routes.
An amusing anecdote that I heard in gr
Re:Presumably that one-third savings is over...wat (Score:2)
The showstopper disadvantage to ground effect craft are that any practically-sized ground effect craft must operate at an altitude of less than half the wingspan of the plane, in other words, at an altitude where it may be struck by a freak wave or rogue wave [wikipedia.org]. So, they can't safely be used on the open ocean. Russia did use Ekranoplans in the Caspian and Black seas - they were cheap to
Actually already in use (Score:3, Informative)
(Funny that the image whose words I have to type in right now says 'seaport' (-: )
Re:Actually already in use (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Actually already in use (Score:2)
Wind assist (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Wind assist (Score:3, Informative)
Those real world t
Re:Wind assist (Score:5, Insightful)
can't be much different to towing the ship with a tug - which is pretty common.
forces on anchor cables and mooring lines are also likely to be pretty similar.
you are right on the "someone's gonna die" level on tension (well known with eg. mooring lines), but it's going to be a manageable risk because it is already managed with ships of this size.
Re:Wind assist (Score:2)
Gotta hand it to them though for actually implementing something like this!
What was old is new again (Score:4, Informative)
Rising fuel prices during the 1970s prompted the development of a new technology that used sails shaped like aircraft wings turned on end to take some of the burden off the engines and save fuel. Slightly curved to form a wing shape, these sails were attached to a mast that could pivot and locate the best angle for the sail to catch the wind. Once the computers set the mast at the best angle to the wind, the sail created the same "lifting" force that an airplane's wing generates, except that the force pushed the ship along the water. However, this system did not always prove to be efficient for extremely large vessels. I thought what I saw was that the mast itself was a rigid aerodynamic sail.
Re:What was old is new again (Score:2)
I remember a Popular Science article on this from the '70's, but can't find any images from it on Google either. The kite approach is interesting because it is better-suited for retrofit than this mast-based technology, but has the downside of providing less ability to sail against the wind (on the other hand, the
Re:What was old is new again (Score:2)
Keep in mind that you're going to need a keel/centerboard as well unless the wind is right behind you in order to go straight.
While it is good for the environment... (Score:4, Interesting)
Stuff like this will save oil and carbon outputs, but really just allows the same wasteful economic system. I have mixed emotions.
Ahh, the military will probably ban them b/c it disrupts their radars.
Re:While it is good for the environment... (Score:2)
the equation depends on maintaining schedules and the total cost of shipping and handling---which was profoundly transformed by the modern shipping container.
we are almost two generations removed now from the labor intensive break-bulk system which was the norm throughout history.
Re:While it is good for the environment... (Score:5, Insightful)
While deplorable, it's hardly the standard.
Re:While it is good for the environment... (Score:2, Interesting)
It is unreasonable to expect a country to go from an agricultural subsitence society to a modern wonderland overnight. When a large portion of the population is living hand-to-mouth in squallor, some of these "slave labor" jobs pro
Re:While it is good for the environment... (Score:3, Insightful)
Amazing how the media only talks about things it has access to, and amazing how they talk a lot about thigns which interest it's viewers. Because in all honesty the average american gives a donkey's ass about the conditions in China.
Re:While it is good for the environment... (Score:4, Insightful)
Economics classes should be required to graduate high school.
Re:While it is good for the environment... (Score:2)
Re:While it is good for the environment... (Score:5, Insightful)
'Waste' doesn't necessarily equate with price or cost. For instance, it is profoundly wasteful that, for instance, in the US we have non-refillable containers for just about every food product we purchase. This is very inexpensive, but is very wasteful - there is no technical reason why a store could not have a sanitary 2-liter filling station where you just take the same bottle over and over to obtain your beverage of choice. This would actually be less expensive in the long run, but it would cost people who make bottles their jobs, etc. etc.
Again, remember that cost does not necessarily match with waste. In fact, generally less expensive alternatives cost less than their less-wasteful alternatives - at the initial investment stage. However, the long-term costs are always lower with less waste.
Re:While it is good for the environment... (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually there is. Well, it's not a technical reason, but a sanitary reason. Heath codes/standards, especially with concerns about people possibly deliberatly tainting stuff, rose to the point that the required cleaning/powerwashing/sterilizing to reuse containters costs more energy than the oil that that utterly cheap containers we use today. There are some places where you can refill filtered water though. It wouldn't be an unworkable idea to refill all your milk/soda/tea/juices at the store, but even if you had everyone bring their own containers, you'd have to worry about rotating, cleaning&sanitizing the various taps.
Again, remember that cost does not necessarily match with waste. In fact, generally less expensive alternatives cost less than their less-wasteful alternatives - at the initial investment stage. However, the long-term costs are always lower with less waste.
It can depend, actually. Sometimes the capital costs of a 'less wastefull solution' are such that you'll never make back the investment.
Re:While it is good for the environment... (Score:2)
Did someone mention broken windows?
Re:While it is good for the environment... (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, US manufacturing could be a hell of a lot cheaper than it is now while maintaining our good standards of living. Sadly, our labor unions don't support increased automation, so we are forced to rely on cheap foreign drudge-labor, often in countries that aren't our friends.
-b.
Re:While it is good for the environment... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:While it is good for the environment... (Score:2)
Trouble is that the manufacturing base of the US has been decimated since the 80s meaning that re-instating manufacturing could be quite difficult. Leave it long enough and even the skill sets start disappearing. I think it's easy to see evidence of this looking around.
I'm skeptical (Score:4, Informative)
Re:I'm skeptical (Score:2)
Re:I'm skeptical (Score:2)
Good for cruise ships? (Score:2, Interesting)
It's not a bug, it's a feature... (Score:2)
Re:Good for cruise ships? (Score:2)
rj
Re:40 gallons... (Score:2)
Accurate (Score:2)
Re:40 gallons... (Score:2)
Another factor to consider (Score:3, Interesting)
Sailboats tend to need keels if they plan on sailing in any direction other than directly downwind.
I'm not just mentioning this as another thing to factor into the cost of retrofitting ships; there is also the consideration of the added draft the ship needs in port in order to avoid running aground.
I see this as a potential problem for using sails, since ports may need to further dredge their channels and inlets in order to allow larger sailing craft to load and unload their cargo. Will they still consider this cost-effective?
Re:Another factor to consider (Score:2)
And why does the ship need a deeper draft, especially since they'd still have the engines to use alone getting into and out of port?
no, it wouldn't (Score:3, Interesting)
The keel is used as resistance. Because it has a large surface area, it resists the ship being pushed off line by the force of the wind. It's like squeezing a seed between your fingers. Your fingers are pushing up and down, but the seed shoots out sideways. This happens because your fingers keep the seed from going up or down.
This is needed because the wind may be blowing north/south and you need to go east/west. Just turning the sail and the rudder will only change th
Re:Another factor to consider (Score:2)
If the ships would have to be retro fitted with keels then the ships draft would increase.
it's a kite, not a sail (Score:2)
Re:Another factor to consider (Score:2)
No need for dredging (Score:2)
Re:No need for dredging (Score:2)
Re:Another factor to consider (Score:3, Informative)
Assuming that there needs to be something extra for directional stability, there are also :
I'm no sailor, but... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'm no sailor, but... (Score:2)
So, much like a normal sailboat, you can reef the wing/sail [sailingusa.info] which reduces the surface for the wind to act on. In a serious storm, the tension might still be there, but then again, so would the regular engine.
Well I was.. (Score:2, Interesting)
Jet Stream? (Score:2, Interesting)
Cool Stuff.
Discovery Channel (Score:2)
What is it with the editors? Are they watching re-runs now?
Maybe but cost didn't kill the clippers (Score:5, Insightful)
don't forget piracy/war... (Score:2)
It's unclear that war/privateers and piracy are much of a problem crossing the Pacific right now.
Re:don't forget piracy/war... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:don't forget piracy/war... (Score:5, Interesting)
Not in the Pacific, but there's issues in the caribbean, around Africa(Somolia), and certain sections of the middle east.
What protects the giant cargo ships is that they're so big it'd take a ship of equal size to steal the cargo, and even pirates could get ahold of a ship that size, it'd be rather trivial to track by satellite, and most of the navies of the world consider pirate suppression part of their core duties. If there's nothing else more important going on, even an American Aircraft carrier will divert to chase suspected pirates.
Most pirates today mostly steal the crew's effects, maybe part of a container, and sometimes take the crew hostage for ransoms.
You don't hear much about it, but cruise liners, which you'd think would be tempting targets, are also among the fastest, especially when they turn all the engines up. With the smaller boats pirates tend to use, they either lack the speed or the endurance to catch them. Even if they do, it has a huge crew that's also trained(and armed) to keep pirates from getting aboard. That and the moment they spot pirates they'll be calling for help, and remember how I mentioned most navies like catching pirates? Pirates chasing a cruise liner will have every naval asset that has a prayer of intercepting will be applying full power to the engines.
Re:Maybe but cost didn't kill the clippers (Score:5, Insightful)
these arent sailing ships exclusively (Score:2)
Fuel costs are enormous expenses in running a ship. 3 million dollars? The fuel savings would pay for it in little time on a large cargo or tanker ship.
The problem with adding traditional sails to powered ships is they reduce cargo capacity and ease of access to said cargo for load/unload. These sails are
Double check your code (Score:3, Funny)
So yeah Jeff, I was the ultimate cause for the latest oil spill, but anyone could have done it. I forgot to put an upper cap on the windspeed, and damned if the ship didn't go cruising straight into that last hurricane.
Real hybrid (Score:4, Funny)
"You call THAT a hybrid? Pfff."
Walker Wing Sail seems more practical (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.lusas.com/case/composite/wingsail.html [lusas.com]
So I think the Walker Wing Sail makes more sense than this para-sail system.
LoB
Landlubbers.. gotta love landlubbers.. (Score:5, Interesting)
The largest sailing ships (of the Chinese Great Fleet) ever made approached size of WWII aircraft carriers (Enterprise/Lexington/Yorktown size) and measured their mainsails in fractional acreage.
I've been a professional blue-ocean sailor for several years. Calm seas and no wind are two things you rarely see unless you are in a brown-water (littoral waters) environment. One of the reasons the current shipping lanes are shaped the way they are is due to great-circle fuel efficiency. The older shipping routes followed the areas of regular wind "down where the trade winds blow" and were essentially 'free'. A tradeoff of a 5% longer route for a deduction of 5% in fuel costs is something that any shipping agency would be willing to consider. There is a print-out on our bridge that shows fuel consumption ($$ also) per hour per engine at the 'sweet spots' throttle settings. My captain much prefers to not burn more fuel than he needs to.
Not what I would call sailing (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Let me guess. . . (Score:3, Insightful)
It would be shocking if the USTPO awarded a patent revolving around the basic idea of moving a ship via a wind sail. But it wouldn't be surprising if many patents were awarded for the specific construction, deployment, recovery, and anchoring mechanisms.
There are many aspects of this that
Re:Let me guess. . . (Score:3, Insightful)
B) I would say retrofitting a cargo ship with a sail in tandem with a computer system that can direct the sail mast to the correct angle to generate the most power from the available wind, dependent upon while altering the ships course, sounds pretty novel to me.
C) If you had RTFA, you would discover this is not some SCO'ish trying to build a patent porfolio, but a company that has achieved a sale of their first sail.
D) This is a German based company, so I would expec
Re:Let me guess. . . (Score:2)
Nope. Nobody made any such statement. I'm sure you're going to scream "omg it was just a joke" next.
Someone should patent unfunny, so that we can sue you off of SlashDot.
No I didn't RTFA
Obviously.