FTC Offput by Offsets

theodp writes "US corporations and shoppers spent more than $54M last year on credits toward tree planting, wind farms, solar plants and other projects, prompting the FTC to question whether carbon-offset money is well spent. 'There's a heightened potential for deception,' said FTC Chairwoman Deborah Platt Majoras of the green-sounding offers that seem to be confronting consumers at every turn."

disgusting

I remember in high school reading about in the middle ages when people would buy offsets for their sins so they could get out of hell or something... not far off it sounds

Re:disgusting

You are thinking of Indulgence and certainly there are some similarities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence [wikipedia.org]

Re:disgusting

I like tree planting, wind farms, and solar plants - and therefore carbon offsets. I don't see the sin in emitting carbon if you are sequestering just as much somewhere else. HOWEVER, we definitely need legal definitions, standards, and truth-in-advertising enforcement for this type of thing. Companies are sure to go for the cheapest available carbon offsets, so government needs to ensure that they're legit.

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I'd like to see this, too, but you have a better chance of seeing Hillary Clinton swear off dissembling than you do of getting a straight answer anywhere around the global warming debate. Not to mention that even if you did get a fact-filled answer from so

Re:disgusting

Not just the cheapest possible carbon offsets, but very likely the least likely to actually *do* anything. There's a difference between Ford commissioning El Verde Grande LLC to plant trees in the Nevada desert (questions like "Are the trees even being planted" and "did the seedlings survive long enough to offset any carbon" come to *my* mind immediately) and Wayerhauser [wikipedia.org] actually hiring actual workers to actually plant trees that they actually expect to actually grow to maturity.

While I know that some companies out there (say, Xcel Energy [xcelenergy.com] are indeed willing to offset their own emissions by replacing them with green technology (so long as the public is willing), the benefits of say Pearl Jam's CD production offsets, are a wee bit more vague.

Personally, I would prefer to *invest* money (with the expectation of profits and return on investment and all that corporate greed stuff) in a company that directly helps [windturbinecompany.com] the environment than to "buy carbon offsets". At the very least, I get a nice profit-and-loss sheet and a decent understanding of what they did with my money (even at the risk of, well, you know [namebase.org]).

Sorry, its wrong.

Its a license to pollute. It is the ultimate expression of wealth. You are buying permission to pollute.

All I saw at the recent get together for global warming supporters in Asia were people willing to save the environment because they are willing to make ME sacrifice. They, no, they have the money to buy themselves the right to destroy my environment and the political power to protect that right of theirs while taking mine away.

Sorry, but the primary reason I destest Al Gore is his excessive resource use which he somehow thinks he absolves by buying trees. If he were truly serious about OUR environment he would cut back what he uses, not buy the right to abuse.

There is nothing more arrogant than carbon credits : paying for excessive resource use and the right to pollute.

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I agree, but I'd go a bit further.

I think the worse sin is the fact that they are measuring amount of carbon. That's simply not complete. They should be measuring the difficulty of replacing the carbon it's supposed to offset and then investing directly

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Since everybody on this topic seems anti-carbon credit, I will provide my 2 cents (on the assumption that at least 1 organization does carbon credits correctly).

I believe carbon credits to be a good thing. First, it shows a sense of responsibility. I do

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What if the trees do offset his carbon usage? What if they more than offset his carbon usage?

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that these offsets do what they claim. If he really believes in the apocalypse that he preaches about, instead of offse

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And, it possibly may be worse... "carbon-offset" programmes are usually really "Greenhouse-Gas programmes"--i.e. they are meant to offset other greenhouse gases as well. This is usually converted (by some factor) into "equivalent carbon" which can be offse

Re:disgusting

Easy. After 20 years, cut the tree down, burn it, and measure the CO2 emissions it produces.

Seriously though, what's the point of planting a tree? Are we saying that somehow by putting a tree sapling in the ground is going to be somehow more efficient than the native plants that would grow on that some spot of land and consume the same water etc...

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I think there is the assumption that the trees will be planted on already cleared or degraded land. In Australia, at least, it is more than an assumption and a requirement.

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the surface area of its foliage for absorbing CO2

Your conclusions are correct, but I don't know why you'd need to consider surface area at all. Ultimately, isn't it the amount of carbon sequestered directly proportional to the mass of the grown plant? I do

Re:disgusting

Carbon offsets, unlike indulgences, have at least the potential to not be a scam.

Indulgences

Tree planting is especially unlikely to work. There just isn't enough land to plant enough trees to soak up all our emissions. Do the calculations, or see http://www.ptua.org.au/myths/trees.shtml [ptua.org.au]

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I think this is basically a summary of my previous comment. However, I am still divided on the merit of tree-planting projects. I don't know if they could work or not because I can't find any solid research. As your link also points out, there is the probl

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What's truly interesting is the parallel you've just drawn between Religion and the environmentalist movement. I recall reading a short Michael Crichton speech on how the environmental movement is religious in nature (some Slashdotters will no doubt be fam

Re:disgusting

a perfectly clean source of infinite energy was readily, cheaply available - would this be a good thing for the world, or a bad one? Some contend that this is the worst thing that could ever possibly happen

Just who contends that? Seriously.
Sounds like a strawman argument to me.

Re:disgusting

I'm no environmentalist, but even I would be opposed to a cheap, perfectly clean source of infinite energy. Unless it came with a cheap, perfectly clean, readily available infinite heat-sink.

Re:disgusting

I believe what the grandparent is referring to is known as the Dark Green [wikipedia.org] sect of the environmental movement. These people tend to believe that it is not pollution that is the problem, but rather the current form of human civilization itself. Some of them see the continued growth and expansion of human civilization as the worst case scenario. Thus to these groups an unlimited, pollution-free source of power, which would enable unlimited growth and expansion of human civilization, would be a worst case scenario since it would allow for unbridled expansion.

In my opinion these fringes of the environmental movement are merely using the whole "save mother Earth" as a front to push their true agenda, which is the desire to see civilization regress to an agrarian, survivalist [wikipedia.org], (maybe even subsistence,) state of existence.

Re:disgusting

Even with unlimited, clean energy, growth still leaves an environmental footprint. Increases in population demand more food, and more living space, both of which would involve expansion into unsettled habitats (e.g., cutting down the rain forests, developing grasslands).

The Dark Greens, who would prefer to not see any this destruction of habitat occur. Unlimited energy however would make expansion into undeveloped habitats cheap, and therefore easier and more likely. Thus, as a sect of the environmental movement that primarily favors preserving undeveloped territory (over reducing pollution), Dark Greens by necessity would have to be opposed to finding cheap, clean, unlimited energy.

I surmise that they would much rather see energy prices skyrocket, and no new sources be developed. This would necessitate a worldwide Powerdown [amazon.com] scenario, which would effectively halt, if not at least dramatically slow, worldwide growth. Only after this state, would their vision of society be palpable to the masses. In a nutshell, they are eco-Marxists.

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The quote shows that they either don't know basic facts or they are willing to lie. From Fusion.org.uk's FAQ section [fusion.org.uk] (or check your physics book):

The major conclusions reached by the SEAFP team in 1995 were that fusion has very good inherent safety qualit

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And if these values are really important, people ought not tie them to a crisis (imagined or real) in the state of the environment, which I believe will some day (though not in any of our lifetimes) will be made utterly insignificant by technology.

You'

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Say what you mean. Say "global warming is a hoax. global warming is a religion. I do not care about my effect on the Earth. I do not care about pollution."

Say it, science-lover. Say it, technology-lover. Say it, nerd. This is news for nerds isn't it? My,

Slow moving government...

From the article:

The FTC has not updated its environmental advertising guidelines, known as the Green Guides, since 1998. Back then, the agency did not create definitions for phrases that are common now--like renewable energy, carbon offsets and sustainability.

This is a good example of the sluggish response of big government. Perhaps a bit of that carbon offset money should be spent on updating some federal publications and collecting feedback from citizens.

"Green-sounding offers"

I find it highly ironic that the ad I got with this story was for "Rackspace Green Server Configurations".

That's accountable though!

You could have a whole industry of finger-pointers and fact checkers looking into the effectiveness of offset claims.

The example of green server farms doesn't strike me as ludicrous or faddish. It's really easy to measure things like power consumption.

Siting would in part determine where the power is coming from. You could also do cool things like setting up in a northern state that gets lots of snow, and use ice ponds [time.com] to assist the air conditioning.

It's conceivable that big farms could invest in local alternative energy plants as a way of stabilizing long-term costs and priority during shortages.

You could back up wind power with an investment in "methane farming" at a local landfill. Methane could be stored and "burned" in a fuel cell stack when the grid or wind farm can't supply cheap and/or "green" juice.

Your Government At Work

So these wankers at the FTC have been sitting around with their thumbs up their butts for 10 years instead of offering some legally-defensible "green" definitions that could have been whipped off in a few days. Now they're concerned that companies are seeking to take advantage of peoples' concern for the environment because they've been throwing money toward wind and solar energy, and the like.

Go back to sleep, you useless pack of oxygen wasters. We'll work it out for ourselves. I guess they're really concerned that a penny spent on enviro-fraud is a penny not spent on fossil-fraud.

Re:Your Government At Work

I don't think that's particularly fair. The FTC doesn't have the time of the resources to chase every marketing term out there, and these definitions are horribly muddy. For example, it took many years before the government (the FDA if memory serves) could agree on a definition of organic. This wasn't due to lack of need or desire or even trying, it was because the industry just couldn't agree on it.

"Green" marketing terms are even worse. Some would claim that nuclear power is green, while others would not. Some think paper bags are green, while others think plastic is green. Is corn-based ethanol green if the fertilizer used to grow it ends up killing off most of the Gulf of Mexico? I doubt you could nail down any of these definitions in a few months, let alone a few days.

Finally, carbon offsets are relatively new, and problematic from a consumer perspective. It's difficult to verify that way you're paying for is being done, and almost entirely impossible to verify that someone isn't selling offset multiple times. Even if you could, you can never be quite sure that someone isn't selling you a false offset. This industry is totally ripe for fraud, and it seems reasonable for the FTC to look into it.

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Hey Man! Don't rush to conclusions!

with their thumbs up their butts

They were accumulating methane to burn when their wind (hot gas) turbines weren't capable of supplying enough juice...

All Hogwash!

In Germany, the power companies are selling electricity generated by coal and atomic power stations as "green" electricity i. e. people signing up for green (derived from resuable resources - wind, sun, tides) are to be environmentally mindful get just the opposite.

They feel cheated, are mad, protest and sue.

Whole parts of cities all of a sudden are using "green" electricity, which is impossible because the resources are not there.

The power companies can do that because they buy carbon credits (or whatever that excuse to just go on as usual is called).

The corporations buy the polititians (as one can see clearly on the money spent currently greasing the US 2008 elections) and then weak laws with loopholes and missleading names (1984-style) are made.

Re:All Hogwash!

Considering the carbon emissions of atomic power are 0 that's a pretty good "offset", although I think the entire thing is a scam to separate over-indulged yuppies with guilty consciences from their money.

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Yup.

Corporations don't really care whether the carbon offsets they buy actually do offset their emissions. They only care that they get to claim to be "green."

"Green" is just marketing hype to draw in the narcissistic types who want to feel good about them

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Atomic power is not considered as "green" and people promoting the environment mostly oppose it and for good reasons. On this topic, btw.:

A recent study over there (GE) - done by respectable research bodies and ordered either by the government or the e

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Link?

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I found a relevant link [wiley.com]. I live 17 miles from a power plant I firmly believe was the motivation for "The Simpsons", and I have two small children. At this distance, I suspect air pollution and stupidity at the plant are bigger health risks to my family.

H

Re:All Hogwash!

Please present some actual evidence for everything you just said, and some conspiracy-nut eco-lobbying website does not count. I grew up in Pennsylvania, home of Three Mile Island. If you had been standing at the exhaust vent where the (minute) amount of radiation was released and had been intentionally trying to suck down everything from the accident, you would have received LESS radiation than if you had hidden out in your basement in Harrisburg for 3 months following the accident... you know why? Radon! There has never been anything even approaching evidence that this "accident" ever injured anyone, and that is the worst-case scenario of anything that GE has ever been involved int.

      If anything I'd say you are in on the scam and are trying to scare people into "saving the earth" by lining your own pocketbook while the US destroys its economy and China pollutes all it wants since somehow dirty coal burned in China is "green" but clean nuclear power in the US is terrible.

Thank you, thank you, thank you

the scam is to allow big polluters a back door by buying credits and not having to clean up the mess they are putting into the athmosphere

That's the best explanation I've seen of how Al Gore is both a big polluter and a scam artist.

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I could not disagree more - the scam is to allow big polluters a back door by buying credits and not having to clean up the mess they are putting into the athmosphere.

Do you know what else is a scam? The fact that I can go to work, earn money, then pay th

Re:All Hogwash!

The problem is that building and fueling an atomic power station takes a considerable amount of energy. The argument seems to hinge on how much fuel can be created by breeder reactors and how much must be mined and refined.

Building anything takes power and fuel. The only way to not use up fuel and energy is to sit on a rock someplace until you starve to death.

Karma-offset programme

On a related note, could Slashdot possibly implement a karma-offset programme where we can trade and share karma? This way trolls could easily offset their trollishness by buying karma off the slashdot-karma-trading-system.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

Say, YOU don't have to feel guilty about emitting all those nasty green house gases. All you gotta do is cough up the money (to me, of course) to pay for Carbon Indulgences... Oh, and don't ask me whether I can show that what I use the money for actually o

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This is why all my offsets are free:

http://www.freecarbonoffsets.com/ [freecarbonoffsets.com]

All the sin, none of the guilt :)

Self Off-Setting

While I'm sure there is a place for commercial and not for profit carbon offsetting I've never really understood while individuals, households, businesses etc don't self offset. What I mean is invest better technology. So instead of handing over hard-ear

Sunday Creek Coal Mine - Ohio

The water source for the Glouster, Ohio area is gotten from Burr Oak Lake which is man made here in the Appalachians. A dam was placed across a valley and made this huge lake.

People would drive from 15 - 20 miles away with containers to gather the water for drinking because it was so pure.

When the coal mine started producing coal approx 8 years ago all of the tailings would wash from Sunday creek area into the Lake and now it is dangerous to even drink the water because of all of the impurities.

What did the coal company do about it? They bought some of these "free passes"

So now that the coal mine is closed and another is now opened about 3 miles further up the road.

And residences of Glouster, Trimble, Jacksonville, and Burr Oak now have tainted water for ever.

The "Free Pass" is just the cost of doing business for the big companies and has nothing to do with the local residence to whom the coal company should feel responsible for fixing what they broke.

If that was the cost, what was the benefit?

I don't live in Glouster, Ohio so I'll just take your claim that the water doesn't taste good anymore at face value. (Although it appears the fish don't mind: http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/FishingSubhomePage/LakeMapLandingPage/BurrOakLakeFishingMap/tabi [state.oh.us]

Ya think?

1) The 'carbon trading system' is itself non-progressive, in the sense that it promotes NOTHING in the sense of preventing the emission of carbon. All people are doing is justifying their carbon emissions by pointing at some other carbon sequestration going on somewhere else. Sure, there is a TINY incentive to perform carbon sequestration but since there is so much capacity elsewhere and the revenue generated by incremental change is infinitesimal, that's really no incentive at all.

2) "There's a heightened potential for deception" - ya think? A globe-spanning system of compelling people into spending their money, which is neither monitored, audited, nor regulated by any objective authority. One might think that there would be an incentive for the members which feed off that system...be they scientists getting grants to study it, former government officials who are paid ridiculous fees to talk about it (& they get world recognition and adulation, itself a useful currency), or the mandarin who pass these off as genuine transactions ... might have an incentive to overvalue what they are selling? I'd be curious to see how many of the alleged owners of carbon credits (which should be anyone that owns forestland or farmland, right?) ACTUALLY have seen a dime of the guilt-money wrung from the first world on their behalf. It's White Guilt that you can absolve with CASH! W00t! Perfect for your (white) wealthy urbanite who feels that somehow they don't deserve the abundance around them. Now they can sleep with the peace of moral certitude, for only $X.

I stand on a beach. The tide has rolled out. I say "look at all this cool free land that nobody owns!" and my friends and I promptly build houses on it. When the tide inevitably rolls back in, I cry to the government that they must save us, and I make a tendentious movie purporting to prove that the tide has only now rolled in since humans built on the beach, that it MUST be humans' fault.
Different time scales, but otherwise just as stupid.

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I'm going to burn some karma here while replying to a troll. So sue me. I direct the following at the parent poster:

Fuck you and the cunt of a mother you were expelled from, you stinking little fucktard racist prick.

Thank you, I feel much better now.

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Too bad there isn't a 'Justified' mod option.

I'd like to elaborate on my previous post.

Disclaimer: I'm about ass-deep in whiskey right now, and fairly sleep deprived. Mod me as you will.

Here's some "true talk" for anybody considering posting a racist troll, whether it's on Slashdot or any other forum on our glorious World Wide Web. While I, as a Constitution-upholding sort of guy, fully support your basic human right of free speech and free expression, I honestly wish all you racist pricks would die a slow and painful death at the hands of a seriously disturbed motherfucker. I'm generally against capital punishment, with you assholes as my sole exception. Sidenote: Yep, a conservative libertarian serving in the military (hard-liners, please don't bother posting your objections to military service, I have my reasons), I'm against a justice system which could kill one innocent person.

I'm a 26 year old white guy, born and raised in Stone Mountain, Georgia. I was a career software developer and network security specialist before joining the Navy about a year and a half ago. My whole life, I've had to deal with uneducated, fuckwitted racist pricks. They're not all from the South, by the way, not by a long shot... here's some stuff to consider before your punk ass little 15 year old hands click the "Submit Comment" button on your favorite forum.

Thousands of your fellow citizens, who happened to be black, fought and died in World Wars I and II. Thousands more fought and died in Korea and Vietnam. I serve our nation alongside thousands more, many of whom are Iraq and Afghanistan right now bleeding because they chose to enlist in the armed forces of our nation and "obey the orders of those appointed over them." Many of those I serve alongside in the submarine community happen to be black.

I'll make you an offer. Why don't you email me at [e-mail] [mailto] and give me some solid contact information I can work with? I'd love to have a friendly chat with you regarding your views on racial equality. If you're out of my liberty area, that's no problem... I'm sure I can get in touch with somebody in the service in your neighborhood who would be delighted to have a friendly wrestling match with your bitch ass. I'm sure you're a fucking pussy who won't actually own up to your childish behavior, but that's okay... I'm still out here defending your right to post asinine comments on public forums. So go fuck yourself.