Design Software Weakens Classic Drawing Skills 268
mosel-saar-ruwer writes "A recent conference, hosted by UC-Berkeley's College of Environmental Design, sought to 'examin[e] the need and role for drawing today in the design professions and fine arts'. In this Reuters summary, via C-NET, the participants seem to agree that the emergence of sophisticated graphics software has coincided with a startling decline in the basic drawing skills of university students. Apparently teenaged boys don't need to practice drawing their nudes when they can just download them off the web."
And in other news (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:And in other news (Score:2)
All the 'bad' writers who would have gotten shitty grades now think they're better because they get higher grades... all thanks to automated grammar and spell checking. Some of those dingbats have an awfully high opinion of their writing.
And just as an anecdotal example, I make a lot more errors while typing than I do writing. You'll never see me write "seomtihng" or "teh" on a piece of paper.
Re:And in other news (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:And in other news (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:And in other news (Score:5, Insightful)
My bicyle skills tanked when I got a car. I also gained forty pounds in one year as my weekly mileage went from 150-200 to zero. And oddly enough, I thought I'd have a lot more time, I found I didn't.
It's a funny thing, but that seems to be the case with a lot of time saving devices. I'm old enough to remember when fax machines because cheap enough to be a common business tool. People thought it'd make their life easier, but instead of making a wednesday FedEx deadline, they'd shoot for a Thursday 9AM deadline, and fax out their lunch orders to boot. Yet somehow I don't think the quality of their work was greater in the least.
One of the things about things like drawing, or manual writing, is that it slows you down and makes you pay attention. In the end, when you look back on your life, you're not going to look with pride at the sheer volume of slapdash work you were able to create. And this is not necessarily anti-technology. The people who create great digital works by in large would also have created great manual works; but the median level, although considerable gussied up, is the same or maybe a bit less.
Re:And in other news (Score:3)
Well, if it makes a difference I didn't say that older technolgies were necessarily better, just that they had some advantages.
I've also been in the technology business for over twenty years, long enough to know that proponents of new technologies consistently overpromise, or in transformative cases usually get the nature of the transformation wrong.
My point is this: computer art tools don't make you an artist, nor do word processors make you a writer, nor do PIMS make you organized. The most i
Re:And in other news (Score:2)
When man evolved to the point that he no longer needed a tail, did our ancestors bemoan the fact that our tail-wagging communication skills were becoming lost? While I certainly would agree that much of man knowledge has become largely or completely lost -- ancient shipbuilding, much of smithing of all types (black, white, weapon, armor), almost all of weste
Re:And in other news (Score:2)
To give an analogy from computer programming, not everyone likes learning about pointers or data types or other fundamentals to Computer Science, and you can probably get a job in the real world without it. However, l
Re:And in other news (Score:2)
To give an analogy from computer programming, not everyone likes learning about pointers or data types or other fundamentals to Computer Science
Carrying that along, I'm sure the introduction of java has reduced the average CS graduate's ability to efficiently allocate and free memory. Is that a bad thing?
I'd say it's only a bad thing in a very limited sense. Obviously some people need to know how to do these things (at the very least someone has to maintain the garbage collectors), and the very best p
Same will happen to reading & writing (Score:2, Insightful)
You occasionally hear about the executive in a company who can't read or write; but functions well because his secretary does this for him - and his skills are being able to talk a good sales talk and wine-and-dine customres. With modern technology this can happen to all of us.
I think compu
Re:Same will happen to reading & writing (Score:2)
Well if that isn't the quote of the day here, I don't know what is.
Re:Same will happen to reading & writing (Score:2)
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=182444&cid=15
Re:Same will happen to reading & writing (Score:2)
Re:Same will happen to reading & writing (Score:2)
Operating a computer via some combination of mouse and keyboard is really easier [than using voice commands].
You obviously haven't watched Star Trek: The Next Generation ^_^
duno about this (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:duno about this (Score:5, Informative)
Further proof (Score:2)
It's right on the money (Score:2)
I have to agree with both the parent AND your comment. Although it is true that the de-emphasis on drawing by curriculum can be at fault (and the influence still of the "anything goes" style of rendering introduced by abstract expressionism), I began updating my portfolio in a new directi
Re:duno about this (Score:2, Interesting)
What if you don't have any drawing skills to lose? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:duno about this (Score:3, Funny)
Re:duno about this (Score:5, Interesting)
Skill? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Skill? (Score:2)
Re:Skill? (Score:2)
Hmm. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hmm. (Score:2)
suddenly changing that is startling. (i for one miss the realistic "grafix" of renaissance and classical works - i'll have none of this modern crap)
Re:Hmm. (Score:2)
check out this (Score:2)
http://www.furiae.com/gallery/spoiled.jpg [furiae.com]
Re:check out this (Score:2)
But the site restricts direct linking. Go here [furiae.com], then to "Gallery" and "Jade." Scroll down for "Spoiled." The links are there, but virtually hidden on the left.
Re:check out this (Score:3)
An AC suggested putting ? on the end of the URL, but you don't even need to do that. If you just go up to the URL, put your cursor in it and hit enter, that works too.
Re:Hmm. (Score:2)
Would you trust an architect who couldn't sit down and sketch out freehand everything you two have just discussed?
I honestly
Re:Hmm. (Score:2)
Having said this, It's been a long time since I worked in a design shop, having moved to a different area of work. And I'm not sure if what I saw 15 years ago still valid today and if that wasn't just that design shop.
Re:Hmm. (Score:2)
I think drawing with our hands shows us many of those things we naturally don't notice. Such as how vital a wrinkle, mole, muscle is to an expression. How much can be shown with how little. A smooth curve. Actually having to do something is a very important lesson.
Digital may be useful, but analogue is infinite.
New Media... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:New Media... (Score:2)
remember wh
Re:New Media... (Score:3, Insightful)
Every user is a power user (Score:3)
So anyone who uses a web browser is now a power user working with "sophisticated graphics software"?
The summary may be wacko, but the real article refers to things like Adobe Creative Suite 2, rather than web browsers, as the sophicticated graphics software.
Re:Every user is a power user (Score:2)
You can download nudes from the web!?!?!?!?!
Re:Every user is a power user (Score:2)
Consider the implications, if you will.
Shocking stuff! (Score:3, Funny)
I'm a hax0r! (Score:4, Interesting)
Last login: Thu Apr 6 19:51:14 on ttyp1
Welcome to the Infamous P.M.A.C
The-Infamous-P-M-A-C:~ sapnak$ vi comment
i
I come at this story from a different angle. I'm a tech who's starting to
be infatuated with drawing.
It works like this: I spend 90% of my time at work sitting in front of a PC
(a Mac, but that distinction is mighty blurred these days..). I troubleshoot
IT problems and design software. Historicaly, my free time at home was spent
doing thing like playing games and watching movies. It's all virtual,
abstract, and intangable.
Last year, I was in laid up for a bit and found myself with some time and
crayons on my hands -- and I realized that I have no drawing skills. So I
took a semester long "drawing for n00bs" class at a local school. I'm almost
done with it, and it's really changed me.
1) It's a great fun to be able to get down and dirty with real materials.
charcoal, pencils, ink, etc.
2) Even n00bs can make pretty things with a little help
3) I started to notice how much shitty computer-made art there is on the
web (for values of art == design).
Related to the article directly, there's something in this debate that reminds
me of the assembler vs. compiler arguments in tech circles. Is it better
if you know what's going on and how to do it yourself? Is there value in
doing it the hard way?
Re:I'm a hax0r! (Score:2)
This was one of the things I found most challenging - and ultimately refreshing - when I went back to school to get a BFA. I drew with crayons and pencils and markers when I was a kid, but I'd been a bit-twiddler for ages (going back to MicroGrafx Draw, Mac Paint, and the like). JPEG made me cringe because it was lossy.
But when I started art school, they made me work with vine charcoal. And watercolo
the question is.... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:the question is.... (Score:2)
In other news ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:In other news ... (Score:2)
Re:In other news ... (Score:2)
And what, pray tell, moves the mouse?
How is this any more offensive than using a compass, particularly given that the current state of monitor/print resolution means the compass would yield a circle closer to perfect than the one actually displayed/printed?
Where does one get the red flowers in the
yeah, but what about.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Drawing skills are seldom needed these days, and for where they are, that just makes artistic folk more appreciated...
Its not software that erodes or diminishes drawing skills, it happens when people have no incentive or reason to use said skills. No news here...
Tin foil won't make you smell better! (Score:2)
-Rick
Re:yeah, but what about.... (Score:4, Insightful)
I would have to disagree. As a student in the University of Lethbridge's BFA:New Media program, drawing skills are EXTREMLY important. Not necessarily for the ability to draw, but the skills that drawing teaches you. Drawing and traditional fine art teach critical ways of looking at things, understanding shapes, perspective, vision, colour. There is a reason that many CG Animation companies including Pixar prefer to take traditional animators and teach them computer skills than to take computer artists and teach them animation skills. Frankly, a program that teaches art skills is what separates the REAL programs from the expensive-piece-of-paper ones.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
To-get-her together its a matter of value to who?. (Score:3, Insightful)
This was done in genuine #2 pencil by a human hand http://www.threeseas.net/pencil-nude.jpg [threeseas.net]
This was done to try and correct bad caring for the artwok http://www.threeseas.net/pencil--nude.jpg [threeseas.net]
But today technology can take a photo from a cell phone and make it look like pencil.
So only to a collector might such work be of value.
Then there is the talent in photography to produce the original photo.
Honestly, a student genuinely interested in the media of pencil by the human hand, then they will pursue it.
So what it means is that we simply have more interested as collectors or at least observers.
Re:To-get-her together its a matter of value to wh (Score:2)
THAT was one HAL of a test, 3seas (u managed to link to some nip and tuck, wink wink). To-get-her was EZ. I clicked both URLs and got thru. Oh, maybe it's that the first 65 or so of us posters aren't so horny as hell as to bring down that site. They'll need to MIR-ROR HER later on, I guess...
image word: citrus
Nothing new here... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes it's true. But computers in architecture are here to stay. Drafting by hand is extremely inefficient and not done by the vast majority of architecture firms. Hand drawing skills are still to be desired however. Spending the extra time drawing by hand forces you to think more about the importance of every line you draw. When you draw in CAD, its very easy to zoom in and out and lose the sense of what should or should not be visible in a particular drawing, depending on the scale it will be displayed at. When working by hand however, you are very concious that you don't need to draw that toilette paper holder in the bathroom stall because its barely a dot or smudge on the paper.
If you can draw and draft compelling works by hand, your skills can be translated to CAD. The reverse is not true.
The remedy to this is not to take computers out of architecture schools, the remedy is to require more hand-drawing classes. If you want the students to have art skills, make them take art classes.
But, like I said, this is not a new debate... the exact same things were being said when I was in architecture school 9 years ago. And people older than me say the same things were said when they were in school. Old-timers like to bitch and moan about "the good old days". The irony is that these same old-timers were criticised by their respective predicessors for the exact same thing: newer drafting tools meant that students were getting worse at freehand drawing; newer modeling tools and materials (i.e. plastics and precut small hardwoods) meant that students were getting worse at woodworking; newer art materials (cheap watercolors, latex paints) meant that students were getting worse at guache and oil painting.
Re:Nothing new here... (Score:2)
What TFA is moaning about is a breakdown in fundamental skills, which you so aptly describe when you talked about zooming in & out and losing the sense of scale.
I don't see the harm in beating drafting/sketching skills into students while they go ahead and use computerized aids. Heck, I don't see the harm in making them go back to learning woodworking and oil painting. I
Re:Nothing new here... (Score:2)
Re:Nothing new here... (Score:2)
Agreed. I used to sell word processing in the early days of Wordstar and CP/M, and I always used to say that buying the world's greatest word processor won't make you a Great American Novelist. Nobody got it.
I started doing computer graphics when that meant FORTRAN and pen plotters, or if you were really lucky, you could wheedle some account time on a COM (computer output microfilm) machine. I
Seems unlikely (Score:2)
I think it works the other way, too (Score:2)
Re:I think it works the other way, too (Score:2)
Re:I think it works the other way, too (Score:2)
Hmmm. Maybe a tablet PC, writing on the screen itself...
Nothing new (Score:2)
Re:Nothing new (Score:2)
Two cents (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Blaming the tools is the first sign of a bad instructor
2. Drawing skills are still extremely valuable and *ARE* taught with digital tools today (Wacom tablets are wonderful)
3. Finding someone to agree (or disagree) that a piece of art is good isn't very hard; it's a matter taste to most, even the 'educated'
4. Drawing on the computer is just as challenging and frustrating as drawing in any other fashion; more so because of the myriad of tools and effects that can be used in a single drawing
5. Most professors that degrade the computer as a design tool are usually computer illiterate or barely literate and can be equated to math instructors that think that we should all go back to slide rules and ditch calculators (although for some types of calculations they may be correct)
My point is, the tool is not to blame. And, because the skills aren't necessarily directly transferrable from one medium to another (from graphite and paper to stylus and tablet, or mouse and screen) doesn't mean the artist is lacking in ability. All artists find a medium that they are comfortable with and will (in a lot of cases) stick to that medium for the duration of their careers. Just because I'm BETTER at drawing on the computer than drawing on a piece of paper doesn't make me a bad artist, creative thinker, or whatever. It means I've found a medium that allows ME to express my creativity.
Re:Two cents (Score:2)
Having used Painter for some serious drawing, I agree. Part of issue here is the software one uses - compositing software like Photoshop is NOT drawing software, though I'm sure people use it as such. Neither are other "design"-oriented packages. Maybe these reduce the level interest in software like Painter, but when you're pr
There are differences... (Score:2)
There's been a lot of cognitive studies done on right brain / left brain in regards to creative expression. For example, left handed people, tend to use their right side of the brain (which is believed to contain most of the creative and artistic processes). But many left-handers, myself i
Technical Drafting and CAD ... (Score:2)
I was a very good freehand artist until I took my first technical drafting course in junior high school. Took another one in high school, plus 6 credits of what used to be called "mechanical drafting." The icing in the cake was that we were the transition class for the switchover to AutoCAD (this was back in 1987 or so).
By the time I finished the transition to AutoCAD I could barely draw freehand anymore. I don't know if it was the tedious and repetitive drafting, or th
Damn, now this! (Score:3, Insightful)
Imagine a future world without computers... it will involve knowing how to kill things with pointy sticks!
What about the decline in common sense in recent years?
Art is whatever the observer thinks it is.
I can personally attest to this! (Score:2)
Its more of "people dont give a damn" (Score:2, Insightful)
I.e. how well can you draw a circle/line free hand?
When was the last time you had to?
Does this mean tools like a ruler and a compass decrease the ability to draw circles and lines? No it doesnt, it just means less people actually do/practice those things free hand. And there are tools that provide better results.
Same thing here, people just dont feel the need to practice drawing free hand.(so less people keep doing it
Re:Its more of "people dont give a damn" (Score:2, Insightful)
Just wanted to give props... (Score:2, Insightful)
This is, by far, the most amusing Slashdot summary I have read in quite a long time.
Sometimes it's better produced with a computer... (Score:2)
Case in point is Brian Denham's [blogspot.com] Killbox comic. The work is amazing.
Regardless of which method is actually used, it takes a mastery of the art to produce great work. Understanding is probably the greater part of any art, the rest is actual technique. You can't just sit down with Illustrator or Draw and whip something out unless you understand the theories and concepts needed to make eye-catching drawings.
Re:Sometimes it's better produced with a computer. (Score:2, Insightful)
Classic drawing skills (Score:2)
I honestly thought that when I first read it - shows you where I'm at in the 'computers dominating my life' stakes.
Happens in comics all the time (Score:2)
This can be good, such as Alex Maleev's work on Daredevil, or not so good, such as Greg Land's work on Ultimate Fantastic Four.
Greg Land gets some hate in a few places:
http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20060215.html [shortpacked.com]
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/11917 44.html [livejournal.com]
And while there are more c
This is complete garbage. Artists Point of View (Score:5, Insightful)
Why?
Because if you cant draw it, you cant truely see it. Seeing things is having an understanding of form. Yes you can have references, but you will never understand that form in your mind three dimensionally until you can express it quickly on paper.
Yes we can all make a sphere easily in 3D. We see a sphere in our mind, so we click the Create Sphere button in 3D.
BUT Lets talk about the shoulder, or thigh... the complex forms it takes as muscles work underneith the skin and fat. First we need to understand where those muscles are, what they look like and how they attach to the structure of the skeleton. We also need to know how they work, that way we can easily see in our minds the forms they create. Muscles cause our body to form interesting shapes that are very dynamic looking from all angles.
Unless we have a good understanding of this, and can quickly express it on paper through drawing, we really cant sculpt it in 3d from all angles.
I've been drawing my entire life, and I was always good at drawing arms, and chest muscles... but i noticed that i could only do them from certain angles. I had problems with foreshortening/perspective and form. I also was quite bad at legs and hands. Now its hard to draw an expressive character without understanding the forms of the hand.
When i got into animation... i noticed all of the great animators could see things in their heads as i could, but they could express them... and i could not because i could not draw like they could. I may have had the pose, or the action in my mind but i could not translate that shiluoette to paper... until i took classical figure drawing.
Now i can draw whats in my head. That is very important because 3d work is very involved. If you can not draw your idea out in a quick sketch and then refine it... work it on paper... Why would you sit down and put a ton of work into 3D modelling when chances are... its not coming from a clear vision.
Sure you can look at an empty lot, and see a giant building, and you know you can get people to build it, and you can use a hammer...
But you need to really see your vision, a blueprint before you embark on the task.
Learning classical figure drawing is essential for animators, fashion designers etc because its not only about form, its about expression.
Drawing isnt technical, its about taking that spark of thought in your brain and using your hand to express, or guesture your emotion onto a physical canvas. The thought in our mind is but a moment, but once we can capture it on paper, its easier to edit, refine and view.
Drawing is essential and its so rewarding because it really does help you to express your ideas, find poses for animation, and it has been true for a long time in animation that... those who can draw anything, are usually classically trained figure pencil artists.
The best cartoonists understand form first, then widdle down to simple toony characters because they understand the body language and how to push it to abstract levels.
Being able to draw, is to have a clear vision and a way to express it to others. A thought is but a moment in your head. Sitting down and working for weeks on a 3D designed character could proof a complete waste of time because you never had a clear vision.
Depends on the field of expertise (Score:3, Insightful)
As an engineer, the ability to be able to come up with a hand sketch at a meeting to explain to a client or an architect how you plan to solve a problem is important. being able to draw clearly enough that someone can go from having no idea what you are conveying, to understanding it to the point where they can suggest changes or alternatives is the goal.
You may well be able to drive a CAD machine to make a perfect drawing of the detail, but unless you can sketch it up in the first place, it is hard to sell the concept.
In some cases, freehand sketches are enough for something substantial to be built from, and there may be little benefit in transferring the drawing to CAD. Some engineers wont use rulers in their hand sketches (using tracing paper laid over grid paper), as the eye will more readily read an almost straight hand line as straight, but will look at a ruled line and compare it against other ruled lines, and spot any minor discrepencies in being parallel, or the like. It is counter intuitive, and took me a while to adjust to it, but my sketches are looking better for not using a ruler to get straight lines.
There is a place for both computer generated drawings as well as hand drawn, and the balance needs to be found in the training of professionals who will need to be familiar with both.
Reuters ought to be ashamed. (Score:3, Informative)
I just hope the author got a decent kickback from Adobe. At least that way *someone* would be getting something of value from this meaningless piece of drivel.
A point by point summary the article, for those who want to save a minute that might otherwise be spent reading the whole thing:
---------------------
Grandiose title, largely unrelated to the text.
"University instructors" and "teachers" say students can't draw today, and the reason is because they use computers.
Drawing with a computer is easy, and doing so makes one lazy.
A professor of architecture who hosted a conference on the topic says, "I see an increasing passivity on the part of students." (But we're not going to give you enough context to guess at what the hell his actual point might have been.)
"Teachers say" drawing with computer is easy. Not using a computer gives one the qualities of a saint.
Another professor of architecture says "it" takes a long time, and adds some meaningless spiritual gobbledegook. (What "it" is, or why on earth we should care that he finds drawing a spiritual experience, or indeed why he would bring up the subject when he's meant to be discussing the decline in his student's artistic abilities, are left as exercises for the reader.)
BLATANT, TOTALLY ABSURD, PARAGRAPH-LONG ADVERT FOR ADOBE SOFTWARE THROWN INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE ARTICLE FOR NO REASON.
Drawing is good, says the director of an art school.
Computers are good too, says the director of a computer-art school.
Some drawings sell for a lot of money.
An art auctioneer says that many people buy drawings.
Drawings are cheap compared to paintings and sculpture. (Err... didn't this set out to be an article about computers?)
It doesn't cost much money to draw on paper.
An artist says, it doesn't cost much money to draw on paper.
----------------------
I sure am glad I read that. My world view will never be the same.
Photoshop (Score:2, Interesting)
My paintings can be seen on my homepage but I'd rather recommend taking a
Know the basics! (Score:2, Insightful)
Engineers are no better (Score:2)
I suspect that the loss of "arts" in education could have a more drastic impact on our creativity as a nation
I knew someone who used photoshop (Score:2)
In other news .... (Score:2)
And I suppose the fact that (Score:2)
This thing again (Score:2)
"$OLD_SKILL is not being used so much any more because of $NEW_TECHNOLOGY. Kids these days won't learn $PURPORTED_ADVANTAGE of the old ways. $RANT_ABOUT_WALKING_UPHILL_TO_SCHOOL_BOTH_WAYS_WH
Education time is finite, adding new skills necessarily means some old skills will be pushed out.
Obvious (Score:2)
so . . . (Score:2)
Who'd have thunk it?
Been True For A Long Time (Score:3, Interesting)
Those who could draw also had other talents. One of them used to be able to mimic another artist's style (if you could call it that) almost exactly, in a fraction of the time. It was funny: he'd narrate while he was doing it, too: "Multi-color gradient, Alien Skin-dropshadow, Arial 36 point, done!"
It's still a valuable skill (Score:3, Insightful)
This is a highly valuable skill. Yes, even in today's modern world.
I heard an interview with a Pixar animator. She said they do the storyboarding drawings by hand. Why? "Because it's just faster."
As a scientist, I can communicate complex ideas far, far easier because I can quickly sketch it while speaking. When I want pretty or accurate I go to a computer.
There is no substitute for hand-drawing skill if you are someone who does things.
the geezers remember "drafting" classes (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Oh NO, anything but the drawing skills! (Score:2)
Re:Why do university students need to doodle? (Score:2)
Maybe not for most academic pursuits. But speaking just for myself, it's the most productive activity I've found during hour-long meetings in the working world.
Re:Happens every time. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Happens every time. (Score:3, Insightful)
The mxs reading on my bike computer for today is 35.5 mph.
I'm going to hell.
Anyway, since I'm going to hell I might as well play the Devil's Advocate a bit and point out that the tractor meant the development of hand planting ceased for nearly a century; and it turns out that no plow hand planting is a superior technology for small farms; and small farms owned by many create more economic and social stablility than large farms in th
Re:Happens every time. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Who cares? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Who cares? (Score:2)
Re:Who cares? (Score:2)