OSDL to Bridge GNOME and KDE 321
Trax88 writes "Open Source Development Labs is previewing work that will attempt to make life easier for software companies by bridging GNOME and KDE. The effort, called Portland Project, began showing its first software tools on in conjunction with this week's LinuxWorld Conference & Expo. Using them, a software company can write a single software package that works using either of the prevailing graphical interfaces. Working with Freedesktop.org on unifying interface issues, they plan to release a beta version of the software in May and version 1.0 in June. Ultimately, advocates hope that it will be part of a larger but separate effort called Linux Standard Base, which is designed to make the operating system easier for software companies to use."
What about the majority of users?! (Score:2, Funny)
If it's no better... (Score:4, Insightful)
If it's no better than what Redhat did with their Frankenstein mix of Gnome and KDE, then I want nothing to do it.
I'd rather one or the other. But, really the other: KDE.
WxWidgets (Score:2, Insightful)
Real problem is a single set of guidelines (Score:5, Interesting)
So I created wyoGuide (http://wyoguide.sf.net/ [sf.net]) exactly for this, to finally have a single set of guidelines. And I designed wyoGuide to be cross-platform guidelines since no serious developer codes for a single platform these days. wyoGuide can and should be used on any platform with any framework and any language. Sure I do provide sample code written in C++ with wxWidgets but I'd love to put up others sample code as well. So far nobody familiar with other's framework volunteered.
To stress this point again, the Linux desktop won't become a success unless it can't be agreed on this single set of guidelines. It's possible that everybody sits together and designs yet another set but the outcome won't be much different than wyoGuide. On the other side wyoGuide is still work in progress and I'm open to any suggestion to make it more suitable for anybody.
If somebody doesn't believe me just read the LXer article here (http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/54009/index
What I'm curious about is how the Portland project handles this info, the knew it since December 2005 (http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architec
O. Wyss
Re:If it's no better... (Score:2)
At least that was a Red Hat thing. It's nice that OSDL is taking decisions that are automatically added to "standards" and that Linux is turning into a comitee-driven crap.
Rumor has it... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Rumor has it... Oh, what a... (Score:3, Funny)
Sorry, I couldn't resist...
But, gnown as Knome is REALLY one HAL of a good one... Imagine attaching Gnome to the HAL exoskeleton.... Oh, now THAT sentence was serendipitous...
Jeez... image word: chipmunk
ask slashdot (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:ask slashdot (Score:2)
I really think the Vulcans have us beat, whatwith their mindmelds and all.
Re:ask slashdot (Score:2)
Re:ask slashdot (Score:2)
Let me be the first (Score:2)
If the "Portland Project" does not have sufficient Cowboy Neil there is no way it will be of any use to me.
Yes, I am quite aware that "Ask Slashdot" is not the same as a "Slashdot Poll".
Re:ask slashdot (Score:2)
Ask Slashdot is a powerful resource to collect knowledge, perhaps more than any other system in the galaxy.
Who the heck mod'ed this "interesting?"
Re:ask slashdot (Score:2)
That's funny, I thought it was a resource to collect questions!
Eric
Some appealing pictures to browse: Gross diseases [grossdiseases.com]
Merge ? (Score:2, Insightful)
I understand that my statement looks like a troll's dream but it would not be such a bad situation.
After all, Firefox is now the main F/OSS web browser with a large dominance among the F/OSS community. And it's not that bad. Why would it be so bad with desktop managers ?
Please enlighten me. Thank you.
Re:Merge ? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Merge ? (Score:2)
KDE is developed in C++/Qt. Gnome is developed in C/GTK. Two extremely different toolkits in separate languages. It'd probably be possible to port Gnome to C++/Qt, or KDE to C/GTK. But I know I wouldn't want to do that. Especially the KDE to C.
Re:Merge ? (Score:2)
Just rewrite every [cpan.org] thing [cpan.org] in Perl!
Re:Merge ? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Merge ? (Score:2)
Re:Merge ? (Score:2)
also, select a lightwheight theme instead of more bloated things like plastik or keramic.
the first time you run KDE (or after you rm -rf ~/.kde) it shows a wizard that allows you to select, between other things, the level of eye candy. just drag the slider all the way to the left to disable all gui effects.
or just do what i do. run windowmaker.
Re:Merge ? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Merge ? (Score:5, Interesting)
The two desktop environments do basic tasks very differently. One of the main reasons why I no longer use Firefox on Linux is because I hate the GNOME file browser that Firefox uses by default. To me, all it does is make my job harder. For the sake of a more sensible file browsing interface, I am willing to tolerate Konqueror's relative slowness at loading web pages. Who's going to negotiate those differences?
The two desktop environments use very different core libraries with different licensing schemes (Qt is GPL, gtk is LGPL). These licensing schemes may carry big implications for those who use them (for example, you can base wxWindows on gtk without a problem, but can you do the same with wxWindows and Qt?)
There may also be major architectural differences that make a merging nontrivial.
Basically, what you're proposing is a huge project. The Portland Project has a much more limited scope, and I think it's much more achievable.
Re:Merge ? (Score:2)
Re:Merge ? (Score:5, Informative)
If I didn't like Firefox so much more than Konqueror, I'd switch myself. I hate the dialogs. The KDE versions are _much_ better, and I say this as a Fluxbox user who has spent a lot of time in both gnome and KDE.
--Tyler
Re:Merge ? (Score:2)
mozilla foundation now is linking firefox and seamonkey against GTK2 by default, wich brings that awfull filechooser along with it.
most gnome apps use that anoying dialog because GTK2 is the foundation for gnome and it's apps. let me say that this filechooser is _THE_ main reason i stay away from GTK2 apps as much as i can.
Re:Merge ? (Score:2)
Re:Merge ? (Score:3, Insightful)
This brings me back to another post of mine in this thread [slashdot.org] and I'll say it again: In their quest to simplify the user experience, the Gnome developers have rendered the environment useless.
GTK File completion broken in all versions tried. (Score:2)
Type in:
The GTK completes
so you end up with:
If this manages to work the first time, backspace the whole thing, and you
will see the bug.
Or, try to type '/etc/fstab'
You get something like:
or better:
I guess if you type poorly, this interface is for you.
Type a letter, look to see if it completed for you, type the next letter,...
The bug exists from RH9 to FC5.
Re:GTK File completion broken in all versions trie (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Merge ? (Score:2)
Qt is triple-licensed, no? If you choose to license it under the QPL, you can probably create wrapper APIs that are LGPL-ed. The problem with KDE and pre-GPL'ed Qt is that the legality of GPL programs (KDE) linking against a QPL program is in question.
Solution to file browsers? (Score:3, Insightful)
I would like to see a Unix-style
Re:Merge ? (Score:3, Informative)
Well, I'd say fairly different design philosophies. Using two completely different toolkits, written in two different lanuages. Actually, I think it's more the latter than the former. If you could incorporate both Gnome and KDE as a set of "preferences" of the same desktop manager, there'd at least be a lot less reason to argue about it.
Re:Merge ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, some will tell you its good for competition. They are lieing.
Others will say why their desktop is superior because it has feature X. These people are just ignorant.
Some may even go into KDE being coded in C++ which is superior, or the reverse from Gnomers who think C is superior. These people need to go outside and get some sun, take a deep breath, and go find a real hobby.
The rest of us know the truth is that it doesn't really matter.
Re:Merge ? (Score:3, Insightful)
I understand that my statement looks like a troll's dream but it would not be such a bad situation.
After all, Firefox is now the main F/OSS web browser with a large dominance among the F/OSS community. And it's not that bad. Why would it be so bad with desktop managers ?
Please enlighten me. Thank you.
Before there was Firefox, do you think that Opera and Mozilla should have merged? Would that have been a better solution than making Firefox?
Firefox has gained dominance beca
Re:Merge ? (Score:3, Interesting)
What I LIKE about FireFox is that it respects the Gnome code enough to let me use SCIM to input Kanji and other foreign characters into the search engine right in the browser. KDE/Konqueror WON'T let me, and it **appears** I have installed all the requisite stuff. The Gnome apps, even running in Konqueror DO let me use foreign characters. OO.o refuses to play ball, too.
What I DON'T like about Firefox is the lack of a Konqueror-like page archiver. I find myself copying or cutting the URL and pasting
Remember Direct3D? (Score:5, Insightful)
Look at the Windows side... Direct3D is pretty useful and was intended to remove the need for developers to write for specific graphics cards.
What happened? For a time everything was fine until the two major players, in an effort to differentiate themselves from the other went off in slightly different directions ultimately resulting in vanilla DirectX and Direct3D being a lowest common denominator between the two sides, and still forcing developers on both sides to write specific code for major devices so as to be able to offer the best experience.
I foresee a similar issue here. A common platform that enables an app written for it to work fine under KDE or Gnome will work great, at first, but then developers will find a feature of one or the other which they need, or at least want to have optional, so will design in parallel paths of UI rendering and functionality, ultimately resulting in a common framework that is insufficient for many apps.
Re:Remember Direct3D? (Score:2)
But... (Score:5, Informative)
"I personally just encourage people to switch to KDE.
This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of
Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will
use it. I don't use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long
since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do.
Please, just tell people to use KDE."
$0.02 (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:$0.02 (Score:2)
I share your preference for KDE, but these companies need a desktop that they can unleash upon the masses and they have all concluded time and again that Gnome is the better desktop for this.
Re:But... (Score:2)
Re:But... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:But... (Score:5, Informative)
The KDEPrint framework is the same: every app that can print can print to PDF, by default. The dialogue is always the same; everything is very consistent across apps. In KDE, if you've seen one print dialogue, you've literally seen them all. Gnome feels unintegrated by comparison.
Re:But... (Score:3, Insightful)
That could be the case because up until 2.14, Gedit could open, but not save over VFS. This shortcoming has been fixed in the latest release [gnome.org].
Re:But... (Score:5, Insightful)
Then it's a good thing the benevolent dictator is in charge of the kernel and not the desktop environment. That kind of approach is great for an API, and if you have very technical users that don't mind spending hours setting things up OK for a desktop environment, but when you come right down to it most users either are idiots or want to behave like they are. That's not to say they're idiots in other areas; a rocket scientist could have problems using their computer, and there's no reason they should be an expert in both rocket science and desktop environments.
I don't consider myself an idiot, but I use Gnome and love it. It's not crippled in terms of functionality, but if an option doesn't really matter it's taken out, and if it does they put a lot of thought into making a sane and consistent way to use it. The environment not only gets out of my way, but helps me along to where I want to go.
Basically, just because he was responsible for the kernel doesn't make him qualified to make these decisions. I still like him, and he makes less asanine comments than most, this is nothing more than another addition to the list of asanine comments he's made.
Re:But... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:But... (Score:2)
Simplicity has great value. (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you read all 54,000 pages of tax code?
Are you aware of all the laws that apply to your daily life?
I believe simplicity in general, and especially simple laws and simple codes are important - otherwise you get to the point where not even one specialized person can understand a single entity.
I heartily applaud Gnome, Gaim, Firefox, and other open source projects who are making the effort to *simplify* their programs.
Simple is far from stupid; simple is smart!
Re:But... (Score:3, Insightful)
How often do you deal with the computer illiterate and have to explain to them how to work their desktop correctly? Not often I'd wager because you'd realize that simplicity is the way to go, and power is being added onto the GNOME/GTK+ platform again as time goes on. The power is simply being placed where it should, within the confines of gconf where power users are free to alter the default behaviors at will, nevermind the options already present in the menus. KDE is overwhelming for the majority of users
Cross platform? (Score:2, Interesting)
no, it won't (Score:2, Informative)
Let's not get off track. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Let's not get off track. (Score:2)
This is #2 reason why both KDE and GNOME exist (#1 used to be the Qt licence).
IMO the only way to merge KDE and GNOME is to invent a new language that is between the two.
(Java might be it, if it didn't have GC/JVM overhead)
Re:Let's not get off track. (Score:2)
Is it just me, or does this remind anyone else of swing? or wxwindows?both of which always look like crap
Re:Let's not get off track. (Score:2)
Yes, this story was never accepted by the editors and it appears in my journal. Sue me.
Re:Let's not get off track. (Score:5, Informative)
This is not a new desktop. This is a layer of separation between developers and the underlying graphics libraries Qt (KDE) and GTK (Gnome).
No it isn't. It is a set of tools that will allow applications (including installers) to do things like add menu items, add icons to the desktop, enable/disable the screensaver, etc. in a desktop-independent way.
Re:Let's not get off track. (Score:3, Informative)
One thing that looks as if it will happen is that Gtk+, Qt, and any widget set wishing to be a part of the family will have a common event loop:
http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects
One of the cool things that results from this is that it'll be possible to embed Gtk+ applications into Qt and vise versa. That will eventually allow you to write a KPart (in KDE) or GPart (in GNOME) that can be embedded transparently in the other:
http: [scheinwelt.at]
Great idea (Score:2)
It's Not a Bridge... (Score:4, Funny)
Uh-oh. (Score:4, Funny)
Portland Project is working on two ways to gloss over the differences
I hope this doesn't mean it's doomed from the start.
Lowest common denominator (Score:3, Interesting)
This has been attempted before, and it usually doesn't catch on. There are plusses and minuses to both toolkits (as there are in any GUI toolkit). The problem that arises when you try to combine them is you end up with a superset of the negatives and none of the plusses that would lead you to choose one over the other. Essentially, it's the "lowest common denominator" problem. If a certain feature is present in one toolkit but not the other, then guess what? It's not going to make it into DAPI. If similar tasks are accomplished differently in the two toolkits, the Portland project is going to have to choose one, and shoehorn the other to fit. Either that, or introduce a third way of doing the same thing.
People view the existence of two competing desktop standards a "problem." I disagree with that. As a developer, if I see a certain application already exists on my platform of choice, I'm not going to make another one, even if mine would have been better. On the other hand, if I were a KDE man, and there was an existing app for Gnome, but one that I didn't really like, then there's a little more incentive to make a native KDE version, in the mold of what I really want. In the end, it's the users who win, because they can pick and choose between both apps.
So for now, pick one and go with it. Don't fall into the trap of trying to conquer both worlds at once.
Gnome Logo on Slashdot (Score:5, Informative)
Please consider this email a formal request from the GNOME Foundation.
We, being the GNOME Foundation, as well as many GNOME Foundation members and
contributors to the project, have contacted you numerous times over the last
four years regarding the use of the old GNOME logo on Slashdot. We've posted
comments on Slashdot stories covering GNOME. We've been very nice about it.
Please update the icon used for GNOME stories on Slashdot. We have used this
logo since 2002, when GNOME 2.0 was released. It has been a *very long* time
since the marble foot logo represented our project. We're now at GNOME 2.14,
so we've shipped seven releases since the new logo was adopted. In that time
you have posted over 120 articles in the GNOME category on Slashdot.
We'd really appreciate it if you updated the icon. It may not be a big deal
to you guys, but our logo is a mark of pride for our project. We'd like to
see it used.
Thanks,
- Jeff
From: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/20
http://blogs.gnome.org/view/jamesh/2006/03/20/0 [gnome.org]
http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/random/logo/ [gnome.org]
Re:Gnome Logo on Slashdot (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Gnome Logo on Slashdot (Score:4, Funny)
Thank you,
GNOME Useability Team
Re:Gnome Logo on Slashdot (Score:3, Funny)
Please consider this email a formal request from the MS Corporation.
We, being the evil empire, as well as many other empire members and
contributors to the evil, have contacted you numerous times over the last
four years regarding the use of the old MS logo on Slashdot. We've posted
comments on Slashdot stories covering MS. We've been very nice about it.
Please update the icon used for MS stories on Slashdot. We have used this
logo since 2002, when MS 2000 was released. It has been a *very long* time
since
Re:Gnome Logo on Slashdot (Score:2)
Re:Gnome Logo on Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
I'd like to see a GNOME logo that doesn't look like a foot with a penis in it, but I've learned to live with disappointment.
Re:Gnome Logo on Slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Gnome Logo on Slashdot (Score:2)
embrace the old skool.
Re:Gnome Logo on Slashdot (Score:2)
Linux Standard Base is due any day now (Score:2)
More Standards! Yippee! (Score:3, Interesting)
What's Next (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What's Next (Score:2)
Yup: the upcoming vemacs will give you all the ease-of-use of vi and all the lean, mean svelteness of emacs.
Re:What's Next (Score:2)
Re:What's Next (Score:2)
Re:What's Next (Score:2)
Re:What's Next (Score:2)
look *and* feel (Score:5, Interesting)
There's a difference between looks like kde and works like kde. Will the menus/config/keybindings be in the right place/format? Will the application handle dcop messages properly? Cross-platform toolkits usually abstract away the differences between platforms. It might translate the function calls and provide the right look, but that's only half of getting the proper look-and-feel.
The ubuntu openoffice-kde package does a nice job, but it's obviously not a kde application. I hope this toolkit gets it right because I would kill for a KDE version of firefox (damn these infernal gnome save dialogs!).
New leading letter (Score:2, Funny)
It's crazy but it might just work!
Gnome user Converted to KDE Here (Score:5, Informative)
Gnome was doing me well until I wanted to change something and couldn't. (Window manager metacity blows) So i switched to KDE's window manager, kwin.
Then one day I realized I liked Amarok and digiKam so I installed Kubuntu Desktop via apt-get while using Ubuntu. Figured I'd give KDE a try.
Within an hour I had KDE configured to look exactly like my gnome desktop, to every last button and taskbar. Then I realized, I didn't have to make it like gnome at all!
So in summary. KDE Is better than GNOME because KDE can look like GNOME but GNOME cannot look like KDE. Same as all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. Gnome is a square.
Also, i had a preconcieved notion that KDE was a Windows desktop clone, which it might be at first glance, but you can quickly and easily make it your own.
Gnome is just inferior in comparison, but I still run it on my laptop.
Re:Gnome user Converted to KDE Here (Score:2)
I suspect that this 'look alike' is rather shallow: Gnome use word as buttons actions while KDE tend to use OK/Cancel (a pity I like better KDE but not this part), I doubt that you could change that..
Re:Gnome user Converted to KDE Here (Score:3, Insightful)
Gnome has realized that 99% of users NEVER CHANGE THE DEFAULTS. Slashdotters included; why do you think so many people complain about the paperclip and auto-format in Word instead of just spending 5 seconds turning those features off? Because they don't change the defaults; very few do.
So the key, the number one most important thing is that you must have everything working and looking good by default.
Everyone who loves KDE always mentions that they love it after spending an hour twi
Re:Gnome user Converted to KDE Here (Score:3, Insightful)
I used to do that too (indeed, my layout looked almost exactly like that). Then I realized I had to do it over for every app. Or every time I tried a new distribution. Or whenever I had to wipe my
What it does (Score:4, Informative)
The Portland project page isn't particularly informative either -- the description is too low-level: "we're going to create two interfaces." OK, two interfaces to do what?
The Integration Tasks [freedesktop.org] page actually provides information about what kinds of things they want to do: make sure apps built for both desktops will talk to the screen saver in the same way, deal with power management, share preferences like default apps, etc.
Sounds like a logical continuation of FreeDesktop.org's efforts so far, and something that will improve matters for people like me who like some apps from one desktop and some from the other.
Re:What it does (Score:2)
Maybe it will:
- give you buggy file/open dialogues
- change all verbose and understandable confirmations to read "foo?" [ok] [cancel]
- remove all of the configurability of kwin and add in all of the limitations of metacity
- remove styles and themes which have any hint of color, in favor of the "corporate 2:00pm eyestrain" look
All this and more will give the genuine Gnome experience to KDE users.
Sorry to be so negative, it's just
Re:What it does (Score:2)
Now let's see that happen with WIndows too... (Score:2)
FreeDesktop (Score:2)
real question is (Score:2)
also, will interface items like toolbars look and work like KDEs ?
not ready yet (Score:3, Funny)
How about just agreeing on dialogs, OK/Cancel? (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally, I prefer the KDE style because I use Windows at work and dual boot at home. Ok/Cancel is what I'm used to, and it makes more sense to me. If Gnome users prefer the Mac way of doing things, hey - that's great. But no matter what *desktop* a Linux user is using, they are going to be using a mix KDE *apps* AND Gnome *apps*. Can we *please* just have a configuration option that switches button order, file browser dialog style, etc. based on what the *user* wants?
Thanks
X11 virtual terminals, please! (Score:3, Interesting)
As I already mentioned in another slashdot discussion some time ago, I run KDE on vt7 amd Gnome on vt8. (And Fluxbox on vt9 just for OpenGL 3D accelerated games but that's another story.)
Just try it: On KDE 3.5.x, click "Switch User:Start New Session" on K menu. You will get your favourite login manager running on a new terminal. Pick another deskop you have installed. Switch back and forth with Alt+Ctrl+F7,F8,F9... And don't forget you still have your framebuffer consoles on Alt+Ctrl+F1..F6.
Re:Will they be able to deal with KDE sound apps? (Score:2)
Re:Will they be able to deal with KDE sound apps? (Score:5, Informative)
The UI and speed is horrendous and gnome is improving with every release. Kde4 is going to have a much cleaner and better interface with huge architectural changes. I look forward to it so I can try kde again.
Re:Will they be able to deal with KDE sound apps? (Score:2)
And speaking from experience, Qt4 should make leaps and bounds for KDE in speed and memory management.
Re:Will they be able to deal with KDE sound apps? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Will they be able to deal with KDE sound apps? (Score:2)