A Decrease in M-Rated Sales to Kids 118
hammersuit writes "GameDaily Biz reports on a new undercover FTC study. From the article: 'Forty-two percent of the secret shoppers - children between the ages of 13 and 16 - who attempted to buy an M-rated video game without a parent were able to purchase one. In the 2003 shop, 69 percent of the shoppers were able to buy one. National sellers were much more likely to restrict sales of M-rated games. Only 35 percent of the secret shoppers were able to purchase such games there. Regional or local sellers sold M-rated games to the shoppers more frequently - 63 percent of the time.'"
What does this have to do with anything? (Score:5, Funny)
We need a new study, counting the number of "violent" and "offensive" games sold to minors, where "violent" and "offensive" is properly defined... by taking the people selling the games to court over and over until the prosecution gets a jury that will agree that the game is violent or offensive!
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:3, Insightful)
This study IS relevant, to see if the rating system, and the policies of retailers ar
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:5, Funny)
I know Jack Thompson is a real nobody, but you don't always have to be so mean to him.
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:2, Insightful)
Nothing is currently banned and no one is currently telling me what I can and cannot buy. That is different from what could take shape if there is government involvement in the whole system. Dream with me for a moment:
1. Selling alcohol to minors is illegal.
2. Supplying alcohol to a minor is illegal, even if you're the parent.
1. Selling violent games to minors is illegal.
2. Supplying violent gam
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:2, Funny)
In many states, it is actually legal to serve alcohol to your own children (or to an underage spouse.)
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:3, Informative)
But just because something is legal, doesn't mean you can't be arrested, convicted, and go to jail for it!
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:1)
You got some splainin to do
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:3, Informative)
By Ellen Miller, Special to the News
November 16, 2005
GRAND JUNCTION - Allysan Isaac, 24, was held nearly a year in work release for something that a judge said Tuesday was not even illegal.
"You were incarcerated for a case that was not a crime," said Mesa County District Judge Brian Flynn, who presided over the case.
Flynn, the prosecutor and Isaac's defense attorney were unaware last year that the offense she was charged with was not a violation of the law.
No one had noticed
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:1)
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:1)
"You sold an M rated game to our secret shopper/minor. Guess what we're pulling all our M and T rated games from your shelves. No GTA and Halo for you, good luck selling the latest My little ponies game while the store across the street sells twice as much on AAA title release days."
I guarantee you'd see it getting enforced right quick.
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:2)
I'd also like to know how this study compares with a study of places that sell R-rated and unrated DVDs to the same age group.
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't rely on the store to not sell games to your kids. Don't expect others to take care of raising and protecting your kids. Do it yourself.
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:1)
"If the Video Game industry would actually do something about vendors who sold to minor there the Government would have no excuse to step in."
I completely agree that parents should keep a close eye on their children, but stuff like the ESRB ratings are there as a tool for parents to help them make more informed decisions by quickly and easily determining the type of cont
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:1)
This is where you and I disagree. I think that a parent who provides housing for a child should have enough control and have instilled rules into a child's head so that they won't buy games that they know they are not supposed to. Your demand that all vendors adhere to the ESRB 100% of the time is both unreasonable and enco
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:1)
I'm not saying society needs to look after your kids, but there are certain rules that stores, theaters, whathave you need to follow to help enforce whatever parental decisions are being made.
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:1)
Those are different examples and not really relevant to a much higher priced item that is brought into the home where the parent lives. The example of cigarettes is one where I support government control of its sale. Cigarettes represent a documented health risk an
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:1)
Let me make this clear:
I COMPLETELY AGREE THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS NO BUSINESS CONTROLLING THE SALE OF VIDEO GAMES OR ENFORCING ESRB RATINGS.
I've held this opinion since my FIRST POST, go back and read it.
The reason the Theater ratings are enforced is because back when they first started using them the MPAA would pull it's movies from any theater who refused to enforce it.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M PROPOSING FOR THE VIDEO GAME INDUSTRY.
I never said the Go
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:2)
Unless, of course, you're under 18, like I was about 1.5 years ago.
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:2)
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:2)
Thus bans of selling violent and offensive games to minors?
Regardless of how YOU think a game should be rated
I don't care how the games are rated. The problem is that so far every law that has been passed (and subsequently killed) has refused to admit that a rating system exists, instead choosing to use vague language that will inevitably create another "Miller-test" situation where the pimply teens working the cash register will have an arre
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:2, Insightful)
If your 13 year old kid can make it to the mall, spend 50 bucks, and play an entire video game in your house without you ever knowing about it, chances are you have much worse things to worry about than whether they're running the hot coffee mod.
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:2)
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:1)
Basically yes its true, the ratings are voluntary. At least in name. In truth, they are voluntary in the way that paying your mortgage is voluntary; sure you are free to not pay it, but if you don't, then the bank is going to take your house away and sell it to someone else. Entirely voluntary no?
Why? Well how did this voluntary regulation come about? Basically congress threatened legislation, which may or may not have pass
Re:What does this have to do with anything? (Score:3, Funny)
Could someone explain the "flamebait" mod? (Score:2, Flamebait)
Then again, I'd only have to read a few of my less serious and more sarcastic contributions to find that out.
Yeah, mod me flamebait. THIS time at least it fits.
Um... (Score:5, Insightful)
I could care less what people do to rase there own kids but it should be there choice. If a kid can only buy an M-rated game with a parent present then it is no ones responsability but the parent.
Selective parental apathy is the biggest "ill of scociety" in my opinion... if you don't care to control your childs purchaseing you don't get to try to get "violent" video games ban for the sake of your children.
Re:Um... (Score:2)
"If a kid can only buy an M-rated game with a parent present then it is no ones responsability but the parent."
Parental responsibility *is* the nurture that fucks children up, not the games themselves.
Re:Um... (Score:1)
It isn't, that is my point.
Video games are no diffrent than TV, movies, books, magazines or any other kind of media. They all have the same potental for harm as well as good. Just having a parent care about the wellbeing of there child and do something about it (personaly, not try to make others do it for them) is a step in the right direction, and leting your child behave like the dominant member of the relationship at a young age is a big leap in the
Re:Um... (Score:2)
Sure they are. There is no imminent risk that the sale of TV, movies, books, magazines, or any other kind of media will be regulated by ratings.
Re:Um... (Score:1)
Jaysyn
Re:Um... (Score:3, Insightful)
imho, any legislation that targets the games industry and ignores other forms of media is being made simply because the games industry is a convenient scapegoat. If this legislation were seriously aimed at fixing a problem, it would never specifically mention games, but instead of would focus on a general policy that could be applied across all media - novels, comics, games, movies, TV, etc.
Re:Um... (Score:3, Insightful)
You could argue that pornography cannot be
Re:Um... (Score:2)
Re:Um... (Score:1)
I hear Uwe Boll is already working on a film adaptation of that one.
Re:Um... (Score:1)
Let's look at this another way. Retailer-based rating/permission systems are flawed because they do not in any way consider
Re:Um... (Score:5, Insightful)
Using your logic we should do away with the drinking, smoking restrictions, and are requirements for drivers licenses and porno. Because hey, if your parent(s) taught you right, your age wouldn't matter. Now tell me, how many 13 year olds would you hand the keys to your car to? Especially if they had a cig hanging off their lip and a 1/5th of tequila in a brown paper bag?
-Rick
-Rick
Re:Um... (Score:4, Insightful)
It's society's responsibility to both employ your offspring as a responsible young adult... and restrict your same offspring as an irresponsible child when using his or her earned income to make entertainment decisions?
That is the most absurd thing I have ever seen in my life.
Using your logic we should do away with the drinking, smoking restrictions, and are requirements for drivers licenses and porno.
Ah, yes. The ol' slashdot analogy. Despite the fact that drinking and smoking both cause chronic, potentially fatal diseases, and that driving before being fully equipped is a good way to get killed, or kill other people, go ahead and compare that to, for example, watching a cartoon zombie eat people which, to the best of my knowledge, can't cause any liver diseases or cancer, or run over the neighbor's dog.
As far as porn, that's just puritan nonsense. I don't care if your kid buys porn. Like the rest of the responsibility you're trying to shirk, I shouldn't be the one that has to enforce that rule. Don't want your kid to buy porn or Stubbs? Tell him or her that. Don't trust them to listen to you? Then the kid's not responsible enough to hold a job anyway, so don't let them have one.
Re:Um... (Score:2)
No, it is my son's responsibility to himself and to society to be a productive member of the society in which he lives.
"and restrict your same offspring as an irresponsible child when using his or her earned income to make entertainment decisions?"
All societies, cultures, and sub-cultures have acceptable norms. Whether you as an individual accept those norms or not is irrelevant. The question then becomes a matter o
Re:Um... (Score:2)
-Rick
Re:Um... (Score:2)
-Rick
Re:Um... (Score:2)
I always, for non-trivial posts, crtl-c it.
Every once in a while I get my comment back lost after a fail.
As for your comment, the only thing I am against is arbitrary age values.
The parent should know but younger people who happen to not have been on Earth for a few billion miles around shouldn't be "punished" becase of kids who can't handle it.
I can't think of a remedy that prevents age discrimition AND all
Re:Um... (Score:2)
In the absence of a clear and logical option, society will choose and arbitrary number of their own liking. In the US, that number for the most part is 18. Not saying it is right or good, just that society will create a norm when a need is determined.
"I am 28 but have thought this way since 10. I could have been biased then and just carried it over these last 2 decades."
I used to be a very stubern person, I sti
Handheld video games (Score:2)
If you buy a video game you still need to take it home, put it in the console and turn on the TV.
You claim that restricting access to the TV set on which a video game can be played is an effective method of restricting access to games with content not suitable for minors. So do you claim that minors shouldn't be allowed to own GBA, Nintendo DS, PSP, or GP2X systems?
Re:Um... (Score:2, Insightful)
And if the child only has X dollars in his hands because he managed to skim that money from several smaller amounts that wer
Re:Um... (Score:1)
But what about this case, where we're talking about passing up awful to wait for useful?
I don't want the responsibility of raising your kids. I don't care how hard a job you think it is - you were free to not fuck back when you spawned the little hellions. Now it's your problem. I will reject every effort you put forth to share that responsibility.
You don't like my attitude? Too bad. I don't have c
Re:Um... (Score:2)
So you don't want to be responsible for raising my kid, and you have no kids of your own, despite your rather ridiculous tone, I would guess you are 17+ years old, which would mean these restrictions have no bearing on you. Unless you are working as a register clerk for a retail store, in which case, you will politely shut the hell up and ring the register like the manager told you
Martin Niemöller (Score:2)
I would guess you are 17+ years old, which would mean these restrictions have no bearing on you.
See First they came for the Communists... [wikipedia.org] for the rebuttal to that line of thinking.
Re:Martin Niemöller (Score:2)
For instance, we shouldn't support laws against murder, because some day they'll come for those who think about murder, and then some day they come for those who are predisposed to murder, and eventually they'll come for the rest...
In this case, nothing is being outlawed. Nothing is being removed from society. The only issue at stake is whether or not consumer retail stores are r
Re:Um... (Score:1)
But if the parents don't give Junior X dollars, then [he/she]'ll just resort to prostitution and selling drugs to get the money. Or so I learned from watching Lifetime.
Re:Um... (Score:2, Interesting)
No, and not for the obvious "Stick it to da man" reason...
Parents have the responsibility of teaching their kids to do the right thing not just in a safe, isolated environment, but on their own and with temptation aplenty.
It might make it easier to look like a good parent if Little Billy never even has the opportunity to drink, smoke, swear, or look at porn, but it doesn't teach Billy anything at all (o
Re:Um... (Score:2)
Yes. The lesson clearly is "Dad's a facist."
Re:Um... (Score:2)
To the slashdot crowd: Those below 18 PLEASE refrain from answering this question.
Re:Um... (Score:3, Insightful)
Nope.
Because the laws keeping GTA:San Andreas from the hands of children are one stepped removed from the laws keeping GTA:San Andreas out of the hands of adults, simply because the politicians disapprove of them.
Every single law that they try to pass about keeping games 'away' from kids isn't about the kids. It's about the fact that the religious right (or is it left? All the same lately) disapproves of suc
What about movies? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What about movies? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What about movies? (Score:2)
A kid goes to movie multiplex, purchases their ticket, and then walks from the theater with the G rated movie to the theater with the R rated movie. They usually take tickets at the entrance to the movie theaters to the consession stand, not at the door of each theater. As long as the usher doesn't question anyone, all is good (and hell, I haven't seen an usher walk the isles in about 10 years, as long as kids are quiet they
Re:What about movies? (Score:1)
Buying tickets online?!?
Bullshit!
Re:What about movies? (Score:1, Interesting)
Ushers, especially on new releas
Re:What about movies? (Score:2)
And people under 30 still patronized this theater? I'm surprised.
Re:What about movies? (Score:1)
Sucks for the kids... (Score:1)
Re:Sucks for the kids... (Score:3, Interesting)
I was in a Best Buy yesterday looking at PSP games and I noticed a mother pushing a son in a stroller and another kid of about 9 and she had GTA: Liberty City Stories in her hand. She was going to buy it for the 9 year old. Personally, I think there's only so much legislators can expect these ratings to do, and then they just have to let it go because they've given parents the information and the rest belongs out of their hands.
Re:Sucks for the kids... (Score:2)
For example, after trawling the cheap bins after Christmas, my 9 year old and I walked up to the register with 3 games for the Playstation. One (for me) was rated M. The cashier did mention to me the game was rated "M for mature", which at first surprised me, but on further
Re:Sucks for the kids... (Score:2)
Re:Sucks for the kids... (Score:2)
She sounds like exactly the kind of parent that then pitches a bitch about it when she discovers the game has prostitution, drugs, and violence. (Oh, my!)
Re:Sucks for the kids... (Score:1)
The difference is generally nudity, because it's okay to kill at 17, but screwing before 18 is immoral.
Re:Sucks for the kids... (Score:2)
That's partly correct.
While the numerical values are correct, 'M' means that it should not be sold to people under 17. It is not solid and is mallable (e.g. if a 16-year old acts highly mature or casually states that he needs to get hands on a gaming engine for programming). At worst, a clerk may have a meeting with a manager which is just a coaching session at worst - usually th
Re:Sucks for the kids... (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, a very disturbing trend, visible in Kingdom Hearts II:
what are these kids complaining about... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:what are these kids complaining about... (Score:2)
Never underestimate the aerobic exercise involved in running for your life from the local bully. You kids today are too damn fat and lazy to get up off your rear-ends, go out, and cause your own violence!
Down But High? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm glad to see that progress is being made, but it seems like there's still something else that needs to be done to bring the results more in line with other purchases such as movie theaters(anyone have numbers for those, BTW?).
Re:Down But High? (Score:1)
Probably.
I'm glad to see that progress is being made, but it seems like there's still something else that needs to be done to bring the results more in line with other purchases such as movie theaters(anyone have numbers for those, BTW?)
Sooo... you're glad that the results are falling, but you're not happy that they're not in line with a number you don't currently know?
Ya I'm a girl - do you have a problem with it, bub?
No, but it annoys
The funny thing is: (Score:3, Funny)
The word will get around as to what retailers will sell them what games. 42% just means that there's a hole. And anything short of pure dictatorshp won't stop it.
Any legislation that prohibits sales of games to minors fails completely at its goal. Which is, of course, to prevent them from playing those games.
Still, I'd expect political doublespeak out the wazoo for a while, saying that they've been "wonderfully successful" at getting mature games out of the hands of children, and that there's "work still to be done."
I hereby copyright those phrases. Any politician using them must immediately resign and pay me an amount of money equal to all of the money they will ever earn (and have earned) in their entire lifetime, plus one Mexican peso.
Re:The funny thing is: (Score:1)
The Mexican peso would be included in all of the money they will ever earn in their lifetime. This is an interesting plan as the politician will forever be stuck in a loop getting you one more Mexican peso. Everytime the bring you what they think is the last peso you tell them now you have earned one more peso and th
Re:The funny thing is: (Score:1)
Re:The funny thing is: (Score:2)
Any legislation that prohibits sales of games to minors fails completely at its goal. Which is, of course, to prevent them from playing those games.
Substitute cigarettes or beer for video games in your argument and see if it still holds water for saying that we shouldn't even bother with such laws. Poor enforcement is better than no enforcement so
Re:The funny thing is: (Score:1)
Completely banning a product to a subset of the population is Communist.
Now that's not to say that everyone who does it IS communist, but that's where the idea comes from.
It has its roots way back in the olde days of Chinese philosophy. Legalism (on which nearly ALL of our current governments are based) emphasized the idea of using "Carrot-on-a-string" approaches to government. Either threaten the people with punishment for what they do, or reward them for what they do.
In America, we chose
Re:The funny thing is: (Score:2)
Completely banning a product to a subset of the population is Communist.
You lost me. Banning alcohol to teenagers and children is somehow equivalent to state ownership of property? I think you have a very poor grasp of what Communism actually is.
Either threaten the people with punishment for what they do, or reward them for what they do. In America, we chose the former because of a very simple reason.
Yes, this of course is why the Constitution is missi
Parents trump dictators, given a chance (Score:2)
You're right: kids aren't stupid -- and neither are parents, given half a chance.
There sure is some middle ground between "sell 'em what they want" and "card every buyer." I'm a single parent of 12-year-old twins. It isn't necessary for me to ensure that every possible retailer in my area follows the letter of the M-ratings law. My kids know
Re:Parents trump dictators, given a chance (Score:1)
Complete lack of maturity or humanity, there (Score:2)
Same advice back. Get some therapy, "brother."
Fact is, working people are getting squeezed in a huge way by economic circumstances. No, I do not think law school grads are the only people worthy of making the choice to have kids. Forgive my commie ass for thinking so.
Prate all you want about personal responsibility. What I'm saying is, any glorious "family values" rhetoric about M-rated games is complete hypocrisy when the economic policies of those same politicians crap on people with a famil
Re:The funny thing is: (Score:2)
Is it? I thought the idea of the legislation was to prevent access to certain games without parental consent. Which is much more sensible: if your 14 year old can convince you that Killer 7 won't shock him, he's old enough to play it. As you said, children aren't stupid - most know their limits. Didn't you, when you were a kid?
Re:The funny thing is: (Score:1)
It will get them in jail, for however long it will be in order for them to earn one peso's worth of jail sentence.
I'm still waiting for this interview (Score:4, Funny)
When they're doing their "reports" about parents who don't know jack about their kids playing violent games...
Reporter: Do you know where your son is?
Mother: Yeah, in his room.
Reporter: And what he's doing there?
Mother: According to the noise, I'd say he's playing Splinter Cell?
Reporter: And do you know what's going on in this game?
Mother: Yeah, sure.
Reporter: And you don't consider this bad?
Mother: I consider it being better than him doing it for real so you got some hot topic for your evening news.
Unfortunately, we'll never see this interview aired.
Re:I'm still waiting for this interview (Score:1, Funny)
Re:I'm still waiting for this interview (Score:2)
Movie rating equivalent (Score:1)
Re:Movie rating equivalent (Score:2)
Re:Movie rating equivalent (Score:1)
Used to work for Gamestop/Babbages ETc... (Score:2)
Ratings don't matter (Score:3, Insightful)
The religious fundementalists in the world just want you to be afraid of things they don't approve of, thats why ratings exist. It has nothing to do with protecting anyone, just another way to control you.
Less political bait. (Score:2)
Re:Phew! (Score:2)
Absolutely! Little Timmy should not be allowed to rent anything R+, be it Matrix Reloaded or Granny's Panties 7. There's absolutely NO difference!
Re:Phew! (Score:3, Funny)
Remind me to stay the hell away from your DVD collection.
Re:Phew! (Score:1)
Re:Phew! (Score:3, Insightful)
But don't let common sense get in the way of a good sound bite. It's much more important that you sound clever than actually say something smart.
Re:Phew! (Score:2)
Re:Phew! (Score:2)
and
Truly, the end of freedom in
Re:Phew! (Score:2)
Yesterday in the Senate there was a hearing, to "determine" if video games are protected speech under the first amendment. A bipartisan panel of Republicans and Democrats called witnesses, including victims of violent crime "caused by video games", sociologists who assert video games cause violent crime, legal authorities to explain why video games aren't protected under the first amendment, etc.
You got to be utterly braindead to believe that when the Republicans and Democrats both say "Video games
Re:Phew! (Score:1)
Why do I care what the Senate says about first amendment rights, since it's the courts that would have to make that decision?
Not only that, I notice you didn't say anything at all about the House, so I guess it's a good thing that the Senate can't just go off on its own little tangents and pass whatever laws it wants on its own, huh?
Oh no! A panel in one half of the lawmaking body said something about maybe restricting something they may not even have the power to restrict! Everybody run to Canada!