Surprises in Microsoft Vista's EULA 385
androthi writes "Scott Granneman takes a look at some surprises in Microsoft Vista's EULA that limit what security professionals and others can do with the new operating system. You want to post benchmarking results? Well, Microsoft may now have a say in it. Vista's EULA no longer shows up on Microsoft's software licensing page, but does still exist — also take note of Windows DRM deciding what you can and can not listen to, and Defender deciding and removing what it considers spyware automatically (by default)."
a way around? (Score:3, Insightful)
What an Awesome Idea! (Score:4, Funny)
study our own computers' performance.
tell people what we find
share ideas on how to improve them
Before you know it, we'l have "free speech" as I like to call it.
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Just get some minor to click it. Or let your dog/cat play with the mouse.
In any case how can they prove "YOU" clicked it.
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Why would they need to, when they can just keep the case going until you'll go banckrupt ? Alternatively, they could - as a gesture of goodwill - settle with you out of court. It should give them nice additional revenue too.
Yes, it is only a matter of time until Microsoft takes up the fine traditions of RIAA, MPAA and Mafia. They have to try and maximize their shareholder value, after all.
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I never sign a EULA (Score:2)
UCITA and EULAs (Score:5, Informative)
Wikipedia's article on the subject, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCITA [wikipedia.org], does however claim the UCITA "has only been passed in two states as of 2004 -- Virginia and Maryland". If you live in one of those, you might be out of luck.
In other jurisdictions, EULAs are probably unenforcable. Wikipedia has another article that covers the US situation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrinkwrap_license [wikipedia.org].
In Germany, a few years ago Microsoft failed to enforce the EULA that disallowed separate sales of OEM software. The court ruled that an equivalent of the First-sale doctrine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_first_sa
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Law is not a permissive pursuit--it's a limiting field. That is, it's legal until it's ruled illegal. Still, if you need examples, ProCD v. Zeidenberg is the de facto standard here. There have been other, smaller cases in a number of states as well. Further, there has been no case that has categorically overturned EULAs.
"More specifically, can you cite case law upholding contractual terms entered into under duress?
In what way are users under duress when
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sined, sealed and delivered (Score:5, Interesting)
To quote the Buckaroo Bonzai [imdb.com] movie, Microsoft's locked in monopoly is sined, sealed and delivered. The EULA for Vista provides more evidence Microsoft is the 800 lb. guerilla that doesn't care about potential faceoffs on these issues any more. The article seems to think differently:
I'm not sure how the article's author would see the user base reacting. Pick a different platform? How? At what expense? No, Microsoft has got this one in the bag.
I predicted in the late 90's if Microsoft didn't have to pay real consequences for their business practices, eventually they would be rolling out OSes at any price they wanted and noone would be able to do much about it. This was at a time where hardware dramatically was decreasing in price but Windows, all flavors, continued to sustain an amazingly different cost curve. I predicted eventually:
It looks like we're pretty close to both. I'll continue to do my development in my Linux world, but I'm guessing there will be a momentary raised eyebrow with Microsoft's Vista, Vista's EULA with it's almost amazing restrictions (especially compared with already draconian past EULAs) and then business as usual.
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I wonder which happened:
1) OEM companies didn't like that a person could buy off-the-shelf components to make a cheaper, faster, and more reliable machine. They then asked MS to make this more expensive for the user.
2) MS realized that most of their OS sales was to OEM companies, and that they could rip off consumers buying the OS unbundled.
What are we paying for now that we weren't getting 10 years ago? Fancier versions of Media Player (which happen to get wors
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Spyware, DRM, an OS that requires 1GB of RAM and high-end accelerated 3D graphics, DRM, Trusted Computing, DRM, and plenty of 0-day exploits.
So, in summary, I'd say mostly DRM.
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There's the negotiated price, and then there's the rebate. I have no idea what either the negotiated price or rebate is, but I have heard the essence from multiple sources. The profits are so thin on building PC boxes, that you simply can't make sufficient profit if you buy Windows at the negotiated price. The profit comes when you get the rebate, and though they're technically not allowed to make the rebates "Microsoft loyalty tes
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Office Max has a no-name 160 GB external USB drive on sale for $80 USD.
The mass market OEM Windows box --- the box that ships out of Austin every two or three minutes --- is what m
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They're Idiots (Score:2)
I know exactly how the user base will respond: They won't buy it.
Windows XP Professional works fine for me, and as such I've bought my last Microsoft operating system. I will never buy Vista. Microsoft has completely ignored the requests of it's customer pool on this one, and has instead opted for responding with "you'll lump it and like
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DirectX maybe not that significant. (Score:3, Interesting)
Consoles have networking and multiplayer and downloadable games, which used to all be hallmarks of the PC
If the console manufacturers don't make it a pain in the ass to develop games (wh
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They also could just wait until the OEMs offer Vista with most of their systems. Most people have only a vague idea about what an operating system is anyway. Most people, nowadays, only buy a new computer when the older one breaks down (or becomes riddled with viruses/spyware/etc.), and most new computers will come with V
sined, what and delivered? (Score:2)
The movie is Buckaroo Banzai, [imdb.com] not "Buckaroo Bonzai."
And the actual part of the movie that the OP is talking about (the initialization of the Oscillation Overthruster) is "Sined," "Seeled" and Delivered.
Geez. If you're going to quote a cult movie, at least be part of the cult.
John Bigboote? Is that you?
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What a great film.
Re:sined, sealed and delivered (Score:4, Funny)
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As you know, Linux is growing in leaps and bounds. The rate of improvement in both Fedora and Ubuntu (the only two I follow closely) is amazing. The rate of improvement is way beyond anything Microsoft has done in years... But you're still right about Windows dominating, and users forking over the $$ to help them.
There are basically three kinds of users: business users, professional home users, and gamers. The other sub-categories, like us hackers, are tiny in
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Viva la Revolucion!
Oh boy (Score:4, Insightful)
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sounds like a fair amount of 3rd party security software i have used in the past.
what would you like them to do?
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Microsoft are damned if they do and damned if they dont. Making the system default to dealing harshly with malware sounds a *good* thing to me. Sure theres a chance of a false positive, but given the fact that I'm getting maybe 50 spams an hour at a minimum, anything that helps cut down on the amount of zombied machiens out ther
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* Write a clever virus which tampers with Windows Defenders signatures and makes it remove legit files. This makes the virus code very fragile as it depends on a particular version of Defender and exploits which MS will quickly disable via Windows Update.
or:
* Simply make the virus delete the legit files it wants directly, and skip the middle-man.
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Abrogation of authority to a "higher power" is not a bug, it's a feature.
KFG
The only winning strategy (Score:5, Funny)
There is no spoon (Score:2)
Moo (Score:4, Funny)
I'll post it as soon as Microsoft oks it.
who cares (Score:2)
most of us have probably been bugging our families and friends to try ubuntu or buy a mac for the past few years. i switched to a mac this year and never looked back. there are people with MUCH higher application and compatibility requirements than myself who can switch to linux (or apple)
.net3 is more benchmark friendly then .net2 (Score:2)
With
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And MS knows this too
Kiss of death for Enterprises (Score:2)
Different EULA for enterprises? (Score:2)
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So what exactly is the scope of this phrase, does it include using an active directory user and limiting their rights to the file to be read only, say on a webserver? So lets say I want to put a picture up on a website and give access to just the .NET account so it can serve it up with t
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http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/crd/qemu_openbsd_n
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What they're saying is that windows DRM cannot be counted on to work properly inside of a virtual machine. If that is somehow an unreasonable statement, I haven't yet figured out how.
Oh and for independent devs too (Score:2)
If they dont like these completely superfluous restrictions, defend it by saying there arent very many of them. Fascinating, like I said. This is truly a test of what people will put up with."
source:
http://btetc.blogspot.com/2006/11/eulas.html [blogspot.com]
I say we encourage them as much as possible... (Score:2)
Cool.
Steve, Bill. You and your engineers are doing a great job. Keep it up. Is there any way you could be more restrictive and sell it as consumer choice? If so, do it.
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Aw, C'MON, give me a break. The above quote clearly states that you have no wife or a girlfriend (at least not of any female kind).
The Benchmarking is for .NET 3.0 only (FUD) (Score:4, Insightful)
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I don't remember exactly what the restriction is, but I think that nobody can publish TPC [tpc.org] (the Transaction Processing Council) benchmarks, they can only submit them to the TPC, which will then make them available. So if you
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No, it isn't just .NET. Microsoft has such restrictions in the EULAs for other products as well, such as XML and SQL Server. See this EFF piece on problems with EULAs [eff.org]. To be fair, this isn't new in VISTA - Microsoft has had these restrictions since at least 2003, and it
isn't just Microsoft that does this. Other companies with similar EULAs include McAfee and VMware.
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From http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms973265 . aspx [microsoft.com]
The Last Straw.... (Score:2)
I'm sure I'll have to deal with Vista at work at some point, but for me it's Mac's (with Boot Camp and Windows XP for games) on systems I buy or recommend to others from now on. Vista is a joke. All of the coolest features have long since b
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I think the metaphor you want is "went off the deep end", or maybe "shot themselves in the foot".
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I think I'll keep XP-Pro, thanks... (Score:2)
The iron is hot (Score:2)
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I know why... (Score:2, Funny)
Might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a la (Score:2)
Stupid, tired arguments (Score:4, Insightful)
1. The benchmark testing and posting applies to
2. This version argument is really tiring. In some ways I see their logic, in other ways I think the six version idea is stupid. Actually, there are more versions of XP then two. Technically, there are four. Windows Media Center Edition and Starter Edition. I imagine Starter Vista will be virtually unseen like XP SE. As for Win MCE, I suppose that would be Home Premium. XP Home = Vista Home, XP Pro = Vista Business. Guess this only leaves two extraneous versions...
3. The Virtualization argument is pointless. How many home users do virtualization? How many business (which do the most virtualization) actually use XP Home licenses? I really think this is a non-issue like #1.
4. The license transfer is more stringent version of the current license transfer. The example they give is a bit weak. At work, if you get a new workstation? I seriously think that corporate licensing will have provisions for this sort of thing. How many people buy their own work computer licenses? Unless you own your own business, not many. Most home users keep a machine for several years. If you assume a home user is on a 3-year replacement cycle (the most common business practice I have found), they will probably only need a single transfer before the new OS is out (though after this, you never know.) Also, how many new PC purchases do not come with a new license?
I by no means am a Microsoft supporter. I have said on multiple occassions that Windows XP would be the last Windows OS I would ever use. I intend on changing my mom to Linux when XP support disappears. I do think that some of these arguments are very bogus though. There are plenty of other reasons to hate Vista, including the evil DRM, more Microsoft monopoly violations, and stupid, half-assed "security" tools.
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Oh I don't know... maybe hardware manufacturers, software makers, people that need to test their stuff and find that virtualization is actually useful??
I'm betting you are one of those people that think having a serial port on your computer is stupid because YOU dont have a use for it. Just because you don't do something does not mean that lots of other people do.
The Noose Is Tightening (Score:2)
The DRM noose around the average user's neck is being sold like a nice, new necktie. The 32-bit version of Vista will be dropped ASAP in favor of 64-bit locked-by-microsoft-only version. This in turn kills the 32-bit processor.
Then it is only a matter of tightening the noose.
So what? Well, there is no market mechanism for loosening the noose. Therefore, the price of loosening the noose around your neck is made by Microsoft. (A price maker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly#Coe [wikipedia.org]
benchmarking (Score:2)
You make it sound as if there is a blanket ban/clause against benchmarking.
FTA:
It is clearly st
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It's THAT bad?
It looks like (Score:2)
And even if I indicate that I accept the EULA, what proves that I have understood it?
Anyway - Windows Vista cracks will appear sooner or later. There are always those who see it as a challenge.
What Microsoft seems to forget is that all these copy
My favorite (Score:2)
My favorite quote from the Vista license is in section 8:
You may not: work around any technical limitations in the software
I guess they are talking about things like intentional limitations such as only installing on one PC. It just cracks me up though.
No virtual DRM == Anti-Macintosh (Score:2)
I know there is a Mac version of office. But it doesn't have the VBA components that drive many corporations.
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I know there is a Mac version of office. But it doesn't have the VBA components that drive many corporations.
That's okay. All the companies still paying Office licensing fees and relying on VBA for internal apps will be crushed by the competition in a few years anyway :)
Torn as a gamer... (Score:2)
Not unusual for MS (or others) (Score:2)
Cost of using Visa - Per Day (Score:2)
I estimate that I'll be able to use a copy of Windows Vista and actually use the software for 2 years, before I either upgrade my machine and don't have any more installs left.
I compare it with other stuff I buy and use daily, and break things down to a per-day cost.
Per Day charge:
Vista (Pro equiv, $299 2 years) : $.41 per day
Tiger ($129, 2 years till next os upgrade) : $0.17 per day
XP Pro (Used 1 copy since launch - 5 years paid for OEM, apro $150): $.08 per day
Ubuntu : $0.0 per day , maybe a fracti
Microsoft's Matt Evans Had This To Say: (Score:2)
No rational person thinks this, but suppose anyway that that is our secret plan, and that we're going to come up with some scheme whereby apps can't run unless they're magically signed or some other scheme.
Guess what - we already have that, in a few forms even (i.e. SAFER, SRP, etc), and the majority of people don't use it, and don't want to, and even if we did have it, there will still need to be a box that says "ru
Suprises? (Score:2)
Surprises in Microsoft Vista's EULA? No-one's surprised about this sort of thing any more, surely?
The answer is simple: if you don't like it, don't install/buy/use it; and similarly, discourage others from installing/buying/using it.
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Now I am thankful for XP... (Score:2)
Security through obscurity (Score:2)
The second rule of Vista is that you DON'T TALK ABOUT VISTA.
Seems that they're taking the security through obscurity approach when it comes to performance reviews as well. Can't have the public actually KNOWING anything bad.. now can we.
multiple install limitation reversed! (Score:2)
Legalese? (Score:2)
While I agree that that is a problem(And that is, essentially, the reason why noone reads EULAs. They won't know what it actually means if they do!)... Just because my Mother would think
Microsoft are simply... (Score:2)
Just remember...the only real way they can trap people now is with games. Non-DRM mp3s are still available if you know where to look for them, and we still have Open Office. As long as B
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People shouldn't just be getting disgusted today. They should have been reading these EULAs for years.
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And finally, I take such clauses as a sign that the software is actually inferior, at least in some scenarios. Why else would they need that clause?
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RE: Defender (Score:2)
It's the big round one, the same one that turns the fans off.
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