Windows Genuine Advantage Gets More Lenient

Troglodyte writes in with word that Microsoft is revamping its Windows Genuine Advantage program so that it labels fewer users pirates. WGA now has a third category besides "genuine and "not genuine," called "not sure." Quoting: "[I]t's quite obvious what is going on here: Microsoft has added 'not sure' as a way of cutting down on the number of false positives associated with WGA. As many as one in five PCs were failing WGA checks, but this new setting should both reduce this and give Microsoft the chance to investigate further the kinds of things that are landing folks in the 'not sure' category."

First Post

Is this a genuine first post?

Re:First Post

You are making a joke. Cancel/Allow?

Not sure?

I'm not sure I want them to change anything else after being told my genuine copy was pirated.

Re:Not sure?

I'm not sure I want them to change anything else after being told my pirated copy was genuine.

Re:Not sure?

I'm not sure I want them to change anything else after being told my genuine pirate was copied.

Matey

Me thinks I need ta be labeled 'genuine pirate'. Aaaarrrrrrrr!

So

So I guess the new categories are:
1. Not a pirate
2. Pirate
3. Ninja

Re:So

Or...

#4 - A windows Volume license install that then had the WGA patched plus the install key changed to a regular Pro key that was keygened and thus passes the WGA test perfectly. Even Windows Media player 11 is happy with it.

WGA is so incredibly easy to get past it's not funny. set the patched WGA dll to read only and updates cant overwrite it.

Re:So

So like I said... ninja.

Re:So

Actually, the new categories are: 1. Guilty 2. Innocent 3. Guilty unless proven innocent

Re:Actually

I personally had to argue with Microsoft to get an activation code for Windows XP. The hard drive on my IBM Thinkpad failed, and I replaced it under warranty. Windows refused to authenticate using the product key printed on the bottom of my computer, saying the key was invalid. (I had bought the computer directly from IBM, which I expect eliminates the possibility this was a bogus key.) I called the Microsoft authentication hotline, which had an automated voice that insisted that I read out loud the 54-digit code that Windows provided. I tried typing it in, but it ignored me. When I read it out loud, the Hotline told me that number was invalid and hung up on me.

I called back. This time, I didn't try to read it the 54 digits again. When I was silent, it hung up on me. So I called back again. This time, I made random noises at it. After five minutes of random noises (which was quite amusing to those working nearby), I finally got hold of a person.

It took 20 minutes to convince the person at the other end of the phone that my license was legitimate. They gave me a new key to enter. Windows said the key was valid, and everything seemed ok.

Then I rebooted, and Windows again said I had an invalid key. I had to call back again, make random noises for five minutes--my coworkers were laughing hysterically--and get a new key. I told them to wait until my machine rebooted, and they said they couldn't. I asked for a way to reach them directly without making noises at their stupid voicemail, and she said there wasn't a way. While I rebooted, I said I wanted to speak to a supervisor. She waited a moment and then said there was a supervisor there--but I couldn't speak to him. She would relay what he said. (Yeah, right, Microsoft.) The "supervisor" told me I should type the "0" key on the phone when I got the first voicemail prompt, which would connect me back to a human operator. I said I didn't believe that would work (since I had tried typing the number already, when it insisted I read it). She laughed and said the "supervisor" had told her to tell me that, and she hung up on me. At least my stalling tactic worked--she stayed on the line until the machine rebooted so I could confirm it wasn't useless key.

I have lived through Microsoft's reactivation hell, personally. It's not FUD.

Re:Actually

Working as designed.

Little known fact: Keys from major OEMs printed on stickers on your box / under your laptop are DUMMY KEYS. You can install the OS with them, but it will NOT activate.

If you use manufacturer's recommended recovery method (Recovery CD, recovery partition), the key is never asked. If you use some other media, the key is accepted, but it _will not activate_. If you call MS and actually get a human, they usually give you a new key when you explain the situation, but the sticker key not working is WORKING AS DESIGNED.

The sticker keys used to work, but then people stole them by writing them down from PCs (shocking!), so the MS answer was to make them essentially duds.

I got a better idea

Just do away with all this crap and stop bothering paying customers. Hackers will always find a way around whatever scheme MS or any other company devises. It's just a fact of life. If humans make it, humans can break it. Vista is already hacked and it will always continue. HDDVD has met the same fate.

gasmonso http://religiousfreaks.com/ [religiousfreaks.com]

Re:I got a better idea

Hackers will always find a way around whatever scheme MS or any other company devises.

Very true, but in the 90s, companies pirating mass quanities of MS software was a major concern. Not only did it kill MS revenue, but it screwed consumers as they thought the copies they were buying were legitimate.

From working in the OEM world at that time, even our trusted vendors would often have workers that would offer 'discounted' OEM copies of MS software from another company all the time. It was so bad that our company had to put in place buying policies to ensure only geniune copies were ever purchased. And even with that policy in place, we had several hundred fake copies of MS software slip through OEM distributors that themselves didn't realize the copies were fake.

This is where all this crap started, but in the process MS lost sight of the goal of ensuring consumers didn't get screwed.

People in MS honestly think the Activation and Keys and WGA were good things to help the consumers to ensure they didn't get worthless copies.

MS just needs a real wakeup call that there are alternatives to dealing with mass production piracy that DO NOT harm or even bother the consumers.

Digital distribution could actually be a real solution as the control of licensing and purchasing could potentially be more easily controlled than relying on Keys and WGA to ensure copies weren't obtained from shady companies.

I don't agree with MS on this, although I do have understanding of where and why all this protection crap started.

Re:I got a better idea

If WGA is to help a customer ensure that their copy of Windows is genuine and not to thwart pirates then make it a tool that the customer can run when they choose not a constant bother. Make WGA help not hinder.

"Piracy" HELPED Microsoft in the 90's.

Novell would have each NetWare server broadcast its license on the network. If two boxes used the same license, both boxes would shut down.

And Novell tracked each license number by company. You could transfer your license to a different company by sending Novell a letter on your company's letterhead.

Microsoft couldn't distinguish between the serial number for a mouse and the serial number for NT server. Microsoft didn't keep a record of what licenses you had registered. They couldn't even tell you if you HAD registered any licenses.

So you could get one license code for NT server and install 1,000 "pirated" servers.

And Microsoft liked it like that. That gave them the edge over Novell.

Now that Microsoft's competition is practically dead, Microsoft is looking for ways to increase their revenue by making sure that every single license is paid for. Just like Novell was doing in the 90's.

Re:"Piracy" HELPED Microsoft in the 90's.

Now that Microsoft's competition is practically dead, Microsoft is looking for ways to increase their revenue by making sure that every single license is paid for. Just like Novell was doing in the 90's.

Good, because ultimately it will be Microsoft's undoing. Small shops that were 100% Microsoft but were able to do so only by paying for what they cord afford and pirating what they couldn't will now be forced to dump Microsoft or stick with older versions of Microsoft software because the new versions are so locked down they can no longer engage in the casual copying they used to engage in to upgrade those PC's that they otherwise couldn't afford to upgrade. They'll then focus on finding less expensive or free alternatives that can integrate with the existing Microsoft software that they are running. Standards suddenly become important to these shops and they are now open to and aware of alternatives they were not open to or aware of before. Suddenly paying the Microsoft tax seems more and more ridiculous.

Re:I got a better idea

If humans make it, humans can break it.

That's why the next version is being coded by SHARKS! Sharks with frickin' "lasers" on their heads.

-jcr

Well...

It seems even MS is willing to admit a major screw up and is willing to give consumers the benefit of the doubt once again.

Do you think people inside MS are starting to finally stop listening to Ballmer and his business/money only mentality?

It could be quite earth shaking for MS to start caring about consumers more than $$ again.

When is the category

When is the category 'We were wrong' coming?

Not sure?

I'm a Mac
I'm a PC
I'm not sure

Oh please

I mean, how hard can it be? The key either is valid or it isn't. Compare the key for validity using the same algorithm that Windows installation uses and compare it against the database of invalidated keys and that's it. No other software products have no problems with validating keys, why is this causing so much problems for Microsoft?

Re:Oh please

That is a good question. I wonder Why MSFT can't do the simple things right but can complete the complex ones. maintaining Windows codebase, Extremely complex. Building WinFS so that it works across intranets, With Leopard, OS X will introduce that functionality into spotlight.

  Though My first thought was that they wanted to cut down on customers getting the invalid key. Out of every million, 200,000 people where being told that their once valid copies were no longer valid. So in order to cut down on False Postives they added another point. So out of a million customers you have 150,000 peopling calling to say WTF fix this, and 50,000 pirates.

Their numbers still add up but the PR dept doesn't have to work so hard.

Re:Oh please

Then, take one volume licensing key which was purchased for a company to do 20000 installations worldwide. That key gets used 20001 times, which is the pirate?

It doesn't work that way. VLKs are basically on the honor system.

Re:Oh please

The problem is not that there are fake keys lying around, it's that there are real keys lying around.

For quite some time, the key algorithm for the Volume License copies of XP has been cracked. They're perfectly valid keys, they simply haven't actually been sold to anyone. That's why they can't use the same algorithm, and why they have to keep this magic database of "actually sold" keys to compare against. I have no idea how this database was generated, but I'm willing to bet it was cobbled together, and that Microsoft had no real easy way of knowing which keys were sold and which were not, which resulted in a highly error prone database.

Wow I was right

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=218426&cid=177 29478 [slashdot.org]

I hate to say it but "I told you so!"

Ok, I enjoy saying it :)

So it's safe to upgrade my computer now?

After this change takes place, can I please upgrade my CPU without having to grovel on the phone to some tech support bozo for a new key?

Re:So it's safe to upgrade my computer now?

no. also, that's Mr. Indian Tech Support Bozo to you.

"change to investigate?"

They very obviously know what sorts of things are landing people in the "not sure" category. Their software will is doing the labeling. Perhaps they want to quantify how much specific factors are contributing.

Now how about activation

This is all well and good, but what about activation? I own a student edition of WinXP Pro and every time I install the OS the internet activation fails. I'm prompted (forced) to call a 1-800 number to activate manually within 30 days. When I do so I must key in or speak a 48-digit activation key which also fails every time. I'm then forwarded to a human being (in India, I'm quite positive) who asks me to repeat part of that 48-digit key, has the audacity to ask me WHY I'M INSTALLING WINDOWS, and then reads back a corresponding 48-digit key which always works.

I have never had trouble using pirated editions of Windows. Regardless of this softened WGA check, Microsoft punishes their legitimate customers. Period.

Ah, three-way boolean logic!

But its still missing some very important identifiers. We must have at least TRUE, FALSE, and FILE_NOT_FOUND [worsethanfailure.com]!

magic

Soon the options will be:
        * Signs point to yes.
        * Yes.
        * Most likely.
        * Without a doubt.
        * Yes - definitely.
        * As I see it, yes.
        * You may rely on it.
        * Chances are good.
        * It is certain.
        * It is decidedly so.
        * Reply hazy, try again.
        * Better not tell you now.
        * Ask again later.
        * Concentrate and ask again.
        * Cannot predict now.
        * My sources say no.
        * Very doubtful.
        * My reply is no.
        * Chances not so good.
        * Don't count on it.

I can't believe it

You forgot the best one of all!

* Outlook not so good.

My genuine advange update blows up...

While I know my copy of XP is the real deal as I bought it off the shelf at a box store, I have something loaded on my machine that doesn't get along with genuine advantage update - and that update blows up midway through install. Thanks Microsoft. I didn't need those security updates anyhow, right?

Too late for Microsoft Windows for me

Shortly after WGA was released, I had a legitimate XP license expire because of WGA.

Eleven years prior (~1996), I was mostly fed up with Microsoft's business practices--quasi-monopoly, and vowed to switch to Redhat Linux or FreeBSD exclusively as I'd used them for server OSes. That proved more effort at the time than it was worth, so I resolved to use Windows 98. Once WGA expired my workstation license, rather than bother with phone calls to customer service, etc., I vowed this was THE straw that broke the camel's back, promptly loaded Kubuntu 5.10 and haven't looked back since. Microsoft OS won't be a first choice for any projects, nor will it run outside of a virtual machine on any hardware I oversee in the future.

Furthermore, I think Microsoft should grant every computer geek/technician at least one free license as we're the people that help keep them in business, recommend them, etc.

Too little, too late Microsoft; Goodbye and good riddance!

Most of you must not remember win95/98

...because in those days 1 copy of windows would supply dozens of people (family, friends, their family, etc). I'm sure it was an even bigger problem for schools and businesses. Now, I'm sure some of you believe that all software should be free or open source, however, I can also see MS's view of wanting to actually get money for their OS. I don't believe WGA is necessarily the best way of doing this, but MS will never go back to "free copies for everyone win98" days.

Microsoft is not making any sense.

In the United States, it's pretty difficult to buy a pre-made PC without a license for Microsoft Windows. Yes, I've heard about the Dell "N" series, yes, I know you can build your own. But go to CompUSA, BestBuy, Costco, Dell direct, and these machines all have licenses for Windows.

So ask yourself this... in the current situation, why is microsoft investing so heavily in WGA? Surely, there are no more licenses to be sold.

But apparently there is. Microsoft has so narrowly defined the definition of a "legal copy of windows" that you really can't be sure.

If my Dell is smoked, and I replace the motherboard, apparently, I don't have a valid license? Or maybe I do. MS will let me know when they decide.

If I've changed too many things too many times in my PC (RAM, HD, Memory, etc), apparently, I am a software pirate. Go figure.

Going back to my original point. If MS is saying 1 of 5 PC's fail this test, they're saying 20% of all PC's don't have a license for Windows. If I assume that 2% of new PC's are sold in the U.S. without a Windows license, then what happened to those other 18% of licenses?

It doesn't add up.

WGA update

I wonder if this is the WGA update XP keeps pestering me to install every time I boot it. I let the bloody thing "validate" me long ago and then blocked it in my firewall from accessing the net. I swear, I'm *this* close (and I'm holding my thumb and finger VERY close together) to deleting the XP partition altogether.

Idiocracy

This reminds me of the movie Idiocracy. The guy ends up in the future, and is mistakenly identified as Mr. "Not Sure" by the ID processing machine.

I guess it was running Windows Genuine Advantage.

The sad part is...

What's sad is all WGA does is prevent EVERYONE from getting easy access to installing security updates, leaving systems more vunerable and a possible danger down the road to the legitmate users.

And that's to no one's advantage.

The WGA tool is nasty narkware / malware

Ok, so it's clear that they don't trust us. Should we trust them? I don't trust them when their narkware/malware tool forbids me from logging into computer because "A problem is preventing Windows from accurately checking the license for this computer". Not even safe mode worked. Each time I logged in, I was immediately was booted out again with that WGA message. The MS solution is to edit the registry - although one cannot even log in! A repair-install was the only solution for me. :-(

MS automated licensing

ID Processing Computer: "Please repeat your license key as it occurs on your M$ identity card. Document number G24L8"
Joe: "Well, I'm not sure if--"
ID Processing Computer: "You have entered the license status of 'Not Sure'. Is this correct, Not sure?"
Joe: "No, it is not correct."
ID Processing Computer: "Thank you. 'Not' is correct. Is 'Sure' correct?
Joe: No, it's not. My license key is rm233-"
ID Processing Computer: "You've already confirmed that your license key starts with 'Not'."
ID Processing Computer: "Please confirm the last part of your key, 'Sure'."
Joe: "My ke-- The last part of my key is not sure. No."
ID Processing Computer: "Thank you. Your pirating status has been entered as Not Sure."
Joe: "What I mean is my status is legi--"
ID Processing Computer: "Confirmation is complete. Please wait while I tattoo your pirate status on all your word documents and email correspondences."
Joe: "Tattoo, wait what?!?"

Biggest annoyance....

Being an enterprise administrator, is having to now use key management service to 'activate' Vista PCs. We have no plans to migrate any time soon, but when that time comes (another two years?) then I can guarantee tears will be shed.

Every other enterprise admin says the same thing, they dread when they have to migrate because of activation problems.

I've joked with them about setting up a public KMS (like the china one) so we make it easier amongst ourselves.

Microsoft can't be too hard on piracy

All of the discussions I've had about Linux vs. Windows were about Linux vs. Pirated (or at least loose use of the EULA) Windows. As long as people can give Windows away to their brother-in-law (which is very hard to do under the EULA), they like it. If they ever couldn't, Linux would look a lot more attractive.

Since Vista seems to be having a lukewarm reception, Microsoft is wisely making it easier to use.

Yes, the cat did get my tongue, actually.

Hopefully "18 reinstalls on the same damned computer because the forker crashed every three months from infestations" counts as "not sure" rather than "you are a stealing mofo".

you are a pirate ... arrrr

my guess is it will probably force you to play this on every single bootup
forcing this incredibly annoying song to go through your head all day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEBbu-wkKrs&mode=re lated&search= [youtube.com]

if that isn't a deterrent, I don't know what is

Darnit!

I was hoping that Ballmer would follow through with his threat to tighten the screws with WGA! Indeed, if you are pro- Free Software, you should encourage Microsoft's crackdown on piracy.

I'm all for it. I'm for WGA turning an infringer's computer into a smoking heap.

Every person who installs an illegitimate version of Windows is another person that Microsoft can count on to not look at alternatives.

--
BMO

the numbers

This article: "As many as one in five PCs were failing WGA checks"
Another article: "...estimates that at this point one in four computers is infected with botnet software."
/. source [slashdot.org]

Weird.

I have a perfect example....

Over this last weekend my wife brought my mother-in-laws computers back to the house because it was "behaving badly". Hard drive was making some noise and thrashing constantly. This even though she had a nice anti-virus/spyware/whateverware package on it (AVG), updated regularly, and had FINALLY broken her habit of opening all those cool attachments her other computer novice friends kept e-mailing her.

Turns out the HD was going south on her, it had developed some bad sectors and whatnot and was having issues coping with these, and I suspect had some corrupted files because of it. I pull one of my spare 60G drives from my workshop slap it in and proceed to tell Norton Ghost to make that puppy the new C drive.

Still has trouble on booting because it's hanging trying to load some files which seemed to be broken. Next easy step. Pop in her XP CD (which still had the booklet with sticker showing her key) and tell it to repair the install. It does, and things boot, but now it says it's failing WGA checks. I wrestled with it for a good hour before finding that even though it had a fresh install of windows some of the WGA stuff had failed to install right and was giving "not sure" messages. I had to dig through more MS KB stuff to find the files to re-download and fix. And I kept eying that CD on my desk with the "fix WGA... but good!" tools on it that don't come from microsoft, but I know would have straightened it's nasty WGA habit right up...

They seriously need to make that less intrusive, and considerably "smarter". Before further punishing innocents with it. Of course from what I hear Vista WGA has already been cracked, so it gets back to the "why punish people with DRM that gets cracked as fast as you can release it anyways" argument.

Patch

#define MAYBE (random()&1)

Re:Rarely Just TRUE or FALSE

Give credit where credit is due: http://worsethanfailure.com/Articles/Rarely_Just_T RUE_or_FALSE.aspx [worsethanfailure.com]

Re:Rarely Just TRUE or FALSE

Ah, so it's coded in C+- [baetzler.de]?