Did Gates Fib About H1-B Salaries?

netbuzz writes "While in Washington last year lobbying for higher H1-B visa limits, Bill Gates told David Broder of the Washington Post that Microsoft starts such workers at about $100,000. An analysis by one offshoring critic suggests that's not true. If his analysis is correct, it would undermine part of the case for lifting H1-B ceilings.

Say It Ain't So, Bill!

Are you telling me that Bill Gates lied to the population about their situation? And we gobbled it up?

Bill Gates: computer scientist, marketer, business man, philanthropist ... politician?

Who would have thought the term Renaissance Man [wikipedia.org] could have such negative connotations?

Re:Say It Ain't So, Bill!

No kidding. I'm shocked -- shocked that Microsoft execs would lie about anything like this.

Now I wonder about Vista - will it really rock my world? Is it really more secure than Linux? Now I'm not so sure Microsoft was telling the truth about that either. ;)

Re:Say It Ain't So, Bill!

"Now I wonder about Vista - will it really rock my world?"

If by 'rock' you mean a short form of 'rock and roll' which was a euphamism for sex, then yeah, you're f**ked

Re:Say It Ain't So, Bill!

will it really rock my world?

From a subjective standpoint, your world rocks if you stand on an unstable platform. So, I think the answer to that might be 'yes.'

Re:Say It Ain't So, Bill!

Vista made me go "Wow". I went "Wow, I've gotta get me a Mac".

compuglobalmegahypernet

Wouldn't it be easier for microsft to move to India than to move India here?

Vista Help Forum [vistahelpforum.com]

Re:compuglobalmegahypernet

You have no idea of the amount of regulation in India. It is much easier for India to move here than vice-versa.

Re:compuglobalmegahypernet

So, the *lack* of regulation of Microsoft in the U.S. is really the problem.

Let's be fair, here:

Face facts: To Bill Gates, 10K a year IS pretty close to 100K. Sheerest poverty.

Re:Let's be fair, here:

The figure of $100000 was correct. It's in binary.

Re:Let's be fair, here:

What he actually meant was "64K ought to be enough for anybody"

Well duh

Of course Bill wants to import workers so he can pay them the same money he'd have to pay native-born workers. Duh!

Re:Well duh

I am a Microsoft manager. The salaries paid for H1-B employees is exactly the same as those paid anyone else. It is not legal to do otherwise. For every H1-B employee I hire, I have to provide a salary comparison against non H1-B employees at that same skill/job level for the government that shows we are not underpaying the H1-B employees. The issue is absolutely finding enough qualified people for the jobs that are available. There are a number of reasons that jobs cannot be filled without the H1-B visas. These include people don't want to work for MS, don't want to relocate, don't like job, don't like salary, etc.

Gates may not have the exact salary numbers (I'd say the average today is more like $90k base, definitely > $100k w/ bonus). The alternative (which is happening as well) is to hire the employees in their home countries and pay them 1/3 as much and not have that money returned to the local US economy.

Re:Well duh

The issue is absolutely finding enough qualified people for the jobs that are available.

If that's the issue- and I hate to sound like a broken record, but I've posted this in EVERY freakin' H-1b story on slashdot- why not take UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE, and then pay for their traing so that they can fill the jobs that are available? Wouldn't that be cheaper than getting people from half a world away?

Re:Well duh

What the hell?

So instead of looking for the best talent globally, a company should *pay* for a worker who may not have the inclination or drive to master his profession?

I'm no Republican, but if that's not the road to a stagnant country where entitlements are expected then I don't know what is.

My girlfriend is on an h1b for architecture; she's from Japan. She's also the hardest, most driven worker her company has, and they offered her ridiculous amounts of money (for architecture) during her review because she's such an asset. They didn't hire her because she's cheaper, they hired her because she's good.

I can't think of a faster way to torpedo the American character than the parent's idea.

Re:Well duh

So it's un-American to not have 10 years .NET experience?

Most job descriptions for ANY tech company are overly specific, requiring experience with particular technologies that a reasonably skilled programmer can learn in a few weeks at most. And that's what HR departments use when they're screening resumes. Is it any wonder that they can't find the workers they want?

Re:Well duh

That strategy implicitly assumes that what they need are trainable skills, and not natural talent based skills. If it's a natural talent, then presumably the potential labor pool is evenly distributed over the world, but there are legal complications to recruiting from the portion of that pool born unluckily outside the US.

The only thing in computer programming that is NOT a trainable skill is the ability to sit in front of a screen solving problems instead of having constant human contact. I would think the prevalence of video games in the United States would have produced plenty of "inborn talent" in that arena by now.

Re:Well duh

These include people don't want to work for MS, don't want to relocate, don't like job, don't like salary, etc.

Supply and demand says that you are just simply not offering enough to make it worth someone's while. Offer the right amount and you will have absolutely no problem finding the people locally. All you are doing here is increasing the supply to dilute the value of the job. I can't blame you for wanting to do so, but it would be nice if you would least acknowledge the fact instead of trying to pass the blame on to the workers who you aren't willing to compensate.

Re:Well duh

No, the GP is right. The fact that you pay native workers the same means that you are reducing US worker salary to the H1B level. But either way, you're paying the H1B less than you'd pay an American if the program didn't exist.

There's no such thing as "not enough qualified people". There's only "not enough qualified people for the amount we wish to pay." If you raised what you offered, you get the people you ned. If you competitors did the same, more people would enter/stay in the profession.

But only if you discount offshoring...

Once you factor offshoring into the mix, the question becomes whether the jobs move overseas until the US salaries drop to the overseas salaries plus transaction costs.

So -- the CEOs are right: we do need and H1B program. But not for the reasons they state. Politically, they can't say "give us this program or we'll move our jobs to India," politically it would be seen as blackmail. Tariffs and taxes would be up overnight.

This is not just an academic distinction. The rationale you have determines the kind of program you create. If you want to depress salaries, you have a program like what we have now. Invite 'em over for a few years, then kick them out of the country when they've achieved seniority, creating knowledge transfer to places with lower salaries ripe for offshoring.

If you want to prevent jobs going overseas, you invite people over here and encourage them to stay as long as they want; you just don't let in more new inexperienced workers and kick the experienced ones out.

Re:Well duh

I was the best programmer in my graduating undergrad class

The tallest midget in the circus is still a midget.

I'm a former Microsoft employee

And here's how this works, folks. They go to Eastern Europe and elsewhere and hire cream of the crop to entry level positions. You see, Microsoft has a system of "levels" according to which salaries and benefits are allocated. Typical starting level is 59. You can hire an average US college grad to that level (good ones go to Google these days), or you can go to, say, Moscow and hire a highly qualified, top notch software engineer with a few years of experience who has no opportunity to interview with Google first and whose negotiation skills equate to those of a squirrel. Who would you rather hire for your $70K? And you can keep L59 foreigner at 59 for much longer than a native, because his H1B process will only _start_ a year after he begins his employment and will take a few years (6 years and counting for some folks), during which moves are risky.

Now the thing is, both US college grad and experienced H1-B will be at the same starting level and will be paid the same wage. This DOES NOT mean they'll be doing the same job. There's a shortage of experienced folks, so the guy with experience will be doing things that require experience, when college grad will be doing something else. H1-B is therefore paid below the market wage for what he's doing (but not for his level). This, coupled with slower promotion rate puts him at a huge disadvantage. Given that promotion velocity is capped no matter how hard you bust your ass, you may never reach higher levels because you started lower and were promoted slower.

This is fully within the constraints of law, and not everyone ends up like this. I was in this situation and so were many of my H1-B coworkers.

Re:Well duh

"I have worked in a couple companies with H1-B employees.

While those employees where good, they were not better skilled than the American programmers on staff. Not worse, but not better."

I have to agree. I find their skills, and possibly this is due to the social environment they are raised in over there, are largely ok if you give them rote coding to do, with very explicit requirements and instructions.

They just did not seem to do as well, on brainstorming, and being creative as the US citizens. And in many of the projects I've worked on...well, well set requirments and the like are hard to find. Most jobs I've been on, have been development, and you had to often make it up as you went due to deadlines and changing customer requests. I'm sure many of you out there have run into that scenario.

Don't get me wrong...this isn't every H1-B type I've worked with, but, I have seen this as a very strong general trend in my experience working with this type worker.

I think many an outsourcer has seen this come up as a problem when shipping things over to India...and then having to deal with it over phone/email. At least if you have a worker like this in your office, it makes communication a bit easier...but, even so, time explaining is time wasted. Something I've seen managers have to consider after they ran into this type of situation...

Equivalent figures

This is equivalent to saying they are making 3 times what I make, when they're only making 2 times what I make. Regardless of which number is correct, I'm still left feeling screwed over.

Bill G is just a parrot

Mr Gates is also very much removed from reality and he merely parrots what he is told. Look at his comments about "OpenOffice taking for ever to open documents", or his engineers "breaking Mac/Apple security every day", etc. You will realize his role is something akin to a PR man burnishing the nameplate of Microsoft. He does not manage the company. Not its sales force, does not provide any technical or visionary leadership. He is just the brand-ambassador-in-chief.

He meets politicians and tells them whatever his acolytes ask him to tell them. He would go to India and tell exactly the opposite story. Go look at Indian websites oooohing aaahhing his compliments and how much he is going to invest in India and how important R&D done in India is to Microsoft.

Re:Bill G is just a parrot

To be honest, I'd be surprised if even Bill knows what his motives are anymore. Once you have enough money that you never need to work again to buy whatever you want, including small countries, the number of goals you can shoot for becomes quite small. As I see it the only real goal that isn't completely trivial is power, in the 'reshape the world as you wish sense.' This only really works, however, if you have a clear vision of how the world should be. From what I've seen, Bill doesn't. Someone like Steve Jobs or Richard Stallman does, and so I'm quite glad neither of them have Bill Gate's money (although Steve Jobs is pretty well off...) since I'm not sure I'd like to live in the world that either of them would create.

market rates change

What's not said in the article is that market rates change. Typically market rates go up (and I'd argue that they are up quite a bit right now). The greencard application process takes some time, and rates likely change in that time. If the greencard takes 2 years to apply for, and it's in process, then those H1-Bs don't want to change jobs and restart the application process. These aren't typical highly-mobile employees: they don't want to change jobs because the application process starts all over again. So, salaries of H1-B employees are likely to be considerably lower than current market rates.

From another perspective, Gates is saying that current market rates are ~100k. This is about right for mid-level software engineers with 2-4 years of experience, in that area.

It's not the same as looking at H1-B applications and trying to figure current rates, as they will reflect market conditions from 1-4 years ago (depending on when the H1-B process started for that individual).

Re:market rates change

Yeah, an H1-B application includes a Labor Condition Application (LCA), part of which specifies that the salary that will be paid is at least the mean salary for one year of experience for the specific occupation and geographic location, at time of application. I didn't see any explanation of when or where these figures were from.

Re:market rates change

From another perspective, Gates is saying that current market rates are ~100k. This is about right for mid-level software engineers with 2-4 years of experience, in that area.

Is it the mid-90s again? That's the only possibility if someone is making that much with only 2-4 years experience. And 100k+, even in an expensive city as Seattle, is still awesome money.

The simple fact is that I've know many people, some very qualified and some not so much, who applied to MS and didn't get so much as a second look. I've known 1 person who's been hired, and he was very young (just turned 22 at the time) and very arrogant.

I think if you want to work for MS you need to be young, show that all you care about is working long hours at the expense of your social life, and be an asshole. They like assholes who know it all. That's why there's a lot of shit that get spewed from Redmond. If you're a foreigner it's even better because they can pay you more than you'd get in your own country but less than a resident and you'll probably work very long hours because you're just happy to be making 'the big bucks'!

Tangentially related but

Business Week [businessweek.com] is running a story about how the H1-B visa is ACTUALLY being used, and it seems it is used much more often than not to act as a conduit to offshore outsourcing, ie get the Indians or whoever over to the US, train them at a crappy salary(comparatively) and then send them home. While some firms certainly are using the visas to get foreign talent to the US, they are being crowded out by body dumpers. One suggestion proffered by the article is to only let US companies get H1Bs.

We should give him a break...

When you're Bill Gates, what's the difference between $71k and $100k? They're basically the same thing from his prospective.

Lying with statistics

TFA says the median is $71,000. Given the nature of salary distributions, the arithmetic mean is likely to be higher. How about full disclosure? Give us a graph.

Also, TFA cites green card applications, not green card grants.

For sure they are cheating

I don't know about the salary amount issue. But in support you have people all over the place that work for one manager but yet report to the cost center of another. We stumbled upon this accidentally and the explanation was that they are supposed to work at one position for a certain amount of time according to H-1 rules. To get around this, they still move people around but leave them on the original cost center. This should come as no surprise. Microsoft has made it very clear that their ethic is they will do whatever they think they can get away with. Funny this is, if I stooped to their level, I would walk out every night with a hard drive in my pocket. But I dont.

Maybe he was misquoted?

I know it's completely against the bizarro-world mentality you folks have to even consider this, but wasn't the original quote related by a third party? I know...crazy.

But, whats the alternative?

Say, H1-Bs are required for cutting costs; and not due to lack of talent in the US. Even then...
1. No H1-B, means higher costs for US Companies
2. US Companies compete locally (inside US), and globally with Global Companies
3. So US Companies' have a higher cost of product development or software services, compared to those from outside (which employ cheaper labor)
4. ....
5. ....
6. Profit! (BUT HOW??!!)

An alternative is to ship most of the development or services lifecycle outside, so that H1-Bs are not needed anymore. This is even worse for the US, isn't it? The money wouldn't even get spent in the US. That is, "offshoring" or "bangaloring"

As they say, treat the disease, not the symptom. Reducing work permits is not the answer.

Possible Mistake

He could possibly be mistaken. I would believe Bill Gates more on matters related to product marketing. For this case he may only be a parrot throwing up misinformation.

Salary

When is cost analysis for an employee is calculated it's not only calculated on how much is paid to that employee in cash money. It includeds applicable taxes, fees(think Workmans Comp), health insurance splits(if health insurance is provided). An employee that grosses $50,000 a year can actually cost an employer $65,000 or more depending on all the benefits,taxes,etc...

He's probably right...

When I first read that, I was as outraged as the rest of you, but if you think about it from his perpective, he's probably right.

When he says $100K, he's probably thinking salary+ health care + 401K + taxes. When you add that up on an average individual employee, you get to $100K pretty easily.

The difference is that when we read $100K, we assume salary only. I know lots of people working at MSFT, none of whom are making that much even after 5+ years there. Unless they are paying their H1-B's more, he's either thinking in terms of total compensation package or...he's just plain lying.

Honestly though, he may not actually know -- why would he care about an operational detail like that at this point in his career?

A more likely explanation....

Bill Gates told David Broder of the Washington Post that Microsoft starts such workers at about $100,000


The supply agency charges a company like Microsoft an hourly rate equivalent of $100,000 /year. The agency then takes 60% of this as commission, and the H1-B applicant gets the remaining $40,000.

It happens to be true.....

When I left Microsoft, the going base rate for new hires averaged $85K. Add stock options to that, and you easily top $100K in overall costs. Even though Microsofts stock packages are nowhere near as generous as they used to be, when then made the change they also increased base salaries.

So, as hard as it might be for some of you to stomach, Gates is telling the truth. These are not Janitors Microsoft is hiring, but highly trained, highly sought after individuals, regardless of country of origin.

Deal with it.

It supports.....

Those MCSE commercials I hear all the time...

H1-B is BAD either way

Seriously, if H1-B salary is high, they take away our well-paid jobs, and we shouldn't let them. If H1-B salary is low, they take away our lowly jobs, and we shouldn't let them too.

And the article tries to criticize Bill Gate's H1-B comment by green card data. Come on, there are at least a dozen
- How many H1-B's are in Microsoft? What is the time period of study? And there are only 1202 green card applications?
- Not every H1-B holders want a green card. Honestly, I believe the higher salaries they are, the less inclined they would apply for a green card.
- If you want to have a "cheap, controllable" labor source, you will not apply green card for them. Simple.
- Green card takes a few years to process. $71k in 2002 worths a lot more now.

I guess it depends on your definition of "about"

It must depend on your definition of the word "about". Is $70 about $100? Is $70k about $100k?

I am not defending Bill Gates, that's just wrong...ewwwww. But, did he state that ALL H-1B's start at about $100k? If some start in a $90k - $100k range, some start in the $80k to $90k range, and the rest are below $80k is it a lie to say they start at about $100k? I dunno. I'm back to, "It depends on your definition of 'about'."

$100,000 doesn't matter

It doesn't matter if Microsoft is paying H1B workers $100,000 a year.

Economic growth since early 2000, when the Dow reached its previous peak, hasn't been exceptional. But after-tax corporate profits have more than doubled, because workers' productivity is up, but their wages aren't -- and because companies have dealt with rising health insurance premiums by denying insurance to ever more workers."
--NY Times [nytimes.com]

Compared to the cost of living and worker productivity, workers in the US have not benefited from from their own increases in productivity. "Between 1980 and 2004, real wages in manufacturing fell 1 percent, while the real income of the richest 1 percent -- people with incomes of more than $277,000 in 2004 -- rose 135 percent. --NY Times [nytimes.com] Microsoft may pay H1B workers $100,000 a year (or not) but even if they do, it is not a fair wage relative to the cost of living and the increase in worker productivity. There is no question that H1B workers hold down wage increases. If Microsoft and other tech companies increased wages, reduced demands for unpaid overtime, and attempted to retain workers older than 35, they wouldn't have any trouble hiring. Instead they import low wage workers and as a result hold down all wages increasing corporate profits at the expense of the workers.

Gates's Response

Bill Gates responded by saying, "I always tell the truth... even when I lie."

good policy, wrong reason

It doesn't make any difference whether H1-B workers are paid less than American workers when they come to the US. Why? Because they will be competing with US workers no matter where they are.

If they can't come to the US on H1-B visas, companies like Microsoft will simply grow their overseas research labs further. That way, the US loses the talent, loses the tax revenue, and US workers will have to compete against people paid even less. So, capping H1-B visas will cause high-tech companies to move elsewhere and will cause US engineers to compete against highly skilled engineers in lower-wage countries.

Of course, that's exactly why it's the right thing to do: Europe, India, and China are (directly or indirectly) responsible for a large amount of US high tech exports, yet most of the highly skilled work is still being done in the US. That's obviously not fair, and restricting H1-B visas is one of the ways in which this problem can be fixed.

former H1B here...

To Bill Gates' point - H1B's that get hired by U.S. companies are required to pay the prevailing wage for the profession the H1B is being hired in, for the region they reside in. I immigrated into the U.S. via the H1B route (I'm a citizen now and I also did my undergraduate in CS here), and have been able to verify that the prevailing wage was indeed paid to me while I was an H1B.

There is also another law that states that no more than 15% of your workforce can be H1-B based. This law is meant to protect U.S. citizens from being displaced by H1-B's and to assure that only really critical roles can be filled with H1-B workers. No one is going to hire an HR person on an H-1B (well unless they are super critical in an HR-kind of way to the company).

Another noteworthy thing to mention is, prevailing wage != FMV (fair market value) wage, at least in my experience. This difference between the two may amount to _some_ savings, but I doubt it is as significant as, let's say, hiring a foreign Indian worker in India at 1/2 or less the salary.

Speaking of hiring offshore - this may or may not prove to be a value added proposition - if you have some seriously senior, super-technical project managers who can divvy up a project into many well-defined/well-bounded specific tasks (e.g. write code for login/logout procedures for a webapp based on Tomcat, using JAAS as the authentication/mechanism, task #2, integrate JAAS with Active Directory on Windows Server, etc.), delegating these tasks to off-shore people, it could work. But this only works in a mature environment like Microsoft probably. It could work in smaller companies too, but it's much riskier, and it could inhibit the company's growth.

Offshoring is overrated. Hiring local, U.S. talent as well as H1B is much better value. Well, that's my opinion anyway, and I'm sticking to it ;) (for now).

Salary...

My father actually came to the United State on a H1-B, to work for Unisys. There were issues (seemed like there was foot dragging on Green Card acquisition, and of course the inevitable fear of being fired and having to start over - regardless of how small the risk my have been), however he made a healthy amount of money per year - just under a 100k per year his first year. Later terms of employment took him over 100k, even while still waiting for the green card (it took a few YEARS). There are bad uses for the H1-B, but definately at least some companies do use it well.

MS doesn't dire dumbasses, like it or not

That about right for an experienced non-dumbass in the inflated Seattle metro area. It's about as expensive as the SF Bay Area now. He might be padding his stats by including some benefits. And I'd guess MS has a better track record than most about paying H1Bs more or less the same as the natives.

With a population of 298 million

With a population of 298 million, there isn't a job description Microsoft can concoct which a single American can't fill.

misreading or misrepresenting

In the quotation, Gates says "salaries for these jobs at Microsoft start at about $100,000 a year. Their counterparts can be hired more cheaply in China or India..." This implies to me that domestic hirees are paid around $100K initially, and that those hired through a visa program cost less. Has Mister Oak misread the quotation or is he purposefully misrepresenting it?

H1-B person here..

Started with a major software company out of college, five months ago. Salary: $95000. No, I'm not a genius, and no I'm not an exception. Five CS people (out of 10) in my graudating class were hired at the same rate by comparable companies. And before you ask, the other five aren't unemployed: they're in grad school. Not because they couldn't find anything else, but because they wanted to go.

My advice to unemployed US programmers: quit whining. If you aren't getting these jobs, you aren't qualified for them. Get your qualifications, get the experience, and compete with the best. It's what I had to do, and after watching the H1-B flamewar for the last five years, I still don't see why Americans think the global economy-- yes, it's global, accept it-- should go any easier on them than anyone else.

Gates and Salaries

I'm a fresh university graduate working for a Seattle area software development company on a TN visa. My salary +signing bonus+stock options doesn't get me to $100k but it's close enough that I believe Gates. Considering that Microsoft is bringing in people with several years experience (and therefore paid more) under their belts that number could easily get to $100k.

I work for Microsoft on an H-1B

I and other H-1B's get paid exactly the same, if not better, than my American citizen counterparts.

While the base salary isn't breaking $100k a lot of the time, Microsoft gives everyone (H-1B or otherwise) a bucketload of benefits that would easily push the cost to MS well over $100k.

Add into the mix the fact that Microsoft has to pay shiteloads of money for legal services, filing fees, premium processing, etc. just to keep us in the country, and you realize that it costs MS a decent amount more to keep H-1Bs in the country. Plus, the stupid Americans like to randomly tear up your visas from time to time if you come from a "suspicious" country, and let me tell you, those are expensive battles.

Pick yer nit or yer teapot

The investigation showed, base salary averaging $71,000. Let's see, there's also health insurance, social security, worker's comp, unemployment insurance, etc. etc. Normally one would add on another 30% or so to cover benefits. So, salary plus benefits would come to $93K give or take. Bonus of 8%? Puts you up to $100 K. So, much as I hate to weigh in on Mr. Gates' side, on this one, the criticism is very unfair. Let's not dilute the legitimate critique of the Redmond Hegemon -- ultra-DRM in Vista, jacking up cost of OS for not benefit worth the cost, etc. etc. Hey, Bill, what's your response to Steve Job's brilliant piece on DRM? But, for the H1-B visas, the choice is, pay high-skilled valuable people more in the US, or pay them less in India Philippines China Pakistan Egypt etc etc etc. As I approach retirement, and do the calculations on the social security system, I say, open the gates to even low paid $50 K workers, instead of paying them $10K somewhere else!

Complete bollocks !

Iiiiiiffffff you add in 'benefits' including 'benefits in kind', I am sure that Billiam is speaking something close to the truth. If you consider wage alone, this is absolute non-sense.

Assume that Billiams workforce is spread pretty evenly across the earnings spectrum. This is a pretty safe assumption considering how many employees M$ has.

Do the numbers and you will see that he would have to be paying a full 15% of his top earners that kind of money for the statement to be true.

Well, we happen to know that the top earners are almost universally not H1Bs. ( I can name about 10 of the top 50 that are almost universally natural born americans, mostly of Northern European decent).

Yet another example of Billiam spreading semi-truths I'm afraid.

H1B's really get paid the same?

There's something I don't understand...

Many here are quite convinced that H1Bs have to get paid the same as equivalent American workers. The company also has legal fees associated with this. Therefore, H1Bs must cost the company more than equivalent American workers.

If this is all true, why do companies do it? What could motivate them? For example, I find it implausible that there really isn't anybody available in Raleigh that can do network-protocol programming in C (despite what my employer's Labor Condition Applications say), but that's the only explanation, if we believe the comparable-pay arguments. It also presupposes that companies will pay more for higher-quality employees; also rather implausible.

I know the law says they have to get paid comparably... the law also says you can't use Kazaa, but it happens...

As a gun-toting, business-loving Republican...

I just love it when tech companies try to rationalize H1B visas. "We can't find enough qualified people" They *ALWAYS* leave out the second half of that sentence: "...at the salary we're willing to pay."

Supply and demand is a bitch sometimes, but it *does* work. If you were to pay, say, $1 million a year, Microsoft would probably have to hire armed guards to keep the horde at bay. If they are having problem finding qualified people at, say, $100k, perhaps they should try $120k, or $150k? But that's crazy talk...

H1B visas function as a corporate subsidy, creating a price-ceiling on domestic wages. It's strange how businesses think market economics is a wonderful thing, unless it happens to be against you. Then they run crying to Washington with a train of lobbyists to ask Uncle Sugar for "help".

There should be a law, that you aren't allowed to pass legislation that doesn't pass the muster of a freshman economics textbook.

Cost to Microsoft

Possibly Bill was talking about the cost to Microsoft rather than their take home pay. Benefits, social security etc.

Even so it would still be a pretty stupid thing to say.

Almost True...

Having worked for the empire, I can say that most H1B visa's are contract workers. The billing rate for those workers is in the neighborhood of $60/hr. So that is in the $100k range... Unfortunately most workers see somewhere around 1/3 to 1/2 of that. They (managers) think they are getting some high-powered guru because of the high price tag. When in fact, they are probably just getting a pig in lipstick with a bloated resume to match. Woe is microsoft.... and all the people who use their products.

verifiable

Broder is a hack. Gates' statements can be easily fact checked. When an employer brings in an H1B they have to file with the Dept. of Labor and indicate they made a good faith effort to recruit an American. They also have to report the salary being offered. I deal with this frequently at work (as critic not HR douche) and invariably the salaries are ridiculous. A quick glance at the database shows that Microsoft is not nearly as bad an abuser of the system as some (I've seen sub 40k for experienced software developers), but it doesn't average to 100k. Facts are our friends: http://www.flcdatacenter.com/CaseH1B.aspx [flcdatacenter.com]

Could Gates Be Contributing to the Autism Epidemic

Check out the rank ordered list of bi-variate ecological correlations with autism (ecology at the State level) [laboratory...states.com]:

Maximum by-State bivariate corelations with autism percapita 2000.

The following lines each contain the following items:

1) Correlation coefficient.
2) A function applied to adjust a State's percapita autism.
        () means no function applied.
        sqrt() means the square root was taken.
        log() means the natural logarithm was taken.
3) The bivariate formula predicting the previously adjusted autism rate.
4) r1 is the correlation of the first variable alone with autism.
5) r2 is the correlation of the second variable alone with autism.

To generate a scattergram and see the raw data:

See http://laboratoryofthestates.com/cgi-bin/correlate [laboratory...states.com] .cgi [laboratory...states.com]

then enter "AutismPercapita2000SansOregonAndMass" for the vertical
and the formula given below for the horizontal.

-----------------

0.600310870050065 () sqrt(FinnishPercapita1990*ImmigrantsIndiaPercapita 1998) bettering r1=0.416806570345255 and r2=0.429065274233648
0.599979036637678 sqrt() log(GSPIndustriesPerGSP1999*ImmigrantsNonWesternPe rcapita1998) bettering r1=0.0415403559840862 and r2=0.428994227300325
0.599618721521368 log() log(GSPIndustriesPerGSP1999*ImmigrantsNonWesternPe rcapita1998) bettering r1=0.032753948828485 and r2=0.433268832849086
0.594501164716388 sqrt() log(GSPIndustriesPerGSP2000*ImmigrantsNonWesternPe rcapita1998) bettering r1=0.0386533075155627 and r2=0.428994227300325
0.593739683661006 log() log(GSPIndustriesPerGSP2000*ImmigrantsNonWesternPe rcapita1998) bettering r1=0.0293946227549309 and r2=0.433268832849086
0.590410355019427 () sqrt(FinnishPercapita1990/UFOReportsPercapitaPerSq uareMilePerYear1941to1996) bettering r1=0.416806570345255 and r2=-0.245662040082846
0.589344939529547 () (FinnishPercapita1990*ImmigrantsIndiaPercapita1998 ) bettering r1=0.473217563942744 and r2=0.3948977437946
0.588776855937162 () log(GSPIndustriesPerGSP1999*ImmigrantsNonWesternPe rcapita1998) bettering r1=0.0504680681454933 and r2=0.41596504785053
0.586104765698104 () sqrt(FinnishPercapita1990*H1BWithJobsPercapita1997 ) bettering r1=0.416806570345255 and r2=0.322376040851882 ... etc.

Re:Fraud!

Exceptionally talented in some circles is not always the same as in other circles such as the business circle. Did these people get interviews with Microsoft? How did they do in the interview? Being a successful employee often requires more than '1337' skills.

Re:Outsource Bill... Please Outsource...

How can this nonsensical rant get a 3? This sounds like a wealth hating troll.

Re:Fraud!

I know of a couple exceptionally talented programmers that couldn't even get an offer from MS.

"I could'a been a contender."

Talent as you define it isn't necessarily talent as Microsoft or Google defines it. Talent alone doesn't make you employable. Not everyone gets a shot at the brass ring.

Re:Is MS looking for people?!?

Actually, had you clicked on the link (on that same page) that says "See all jobs with Microsoft Corporation [computerjobs.com]" and looked at the individual descriptions, you would have seen that they have posted more than 237 jobs right on that site alone!

Everybody, quick, put down Slashdot for just a moment, and get your resume over there!

Re:No need to expand H1B

No need to do so. The US is already flooded with lawyers, doctors, academics and politicians... what it lacks is qualified technology people, and that's what H1B visas are there to help with.