Install Vista Upgrade Without Preexisting XP

Johannes K. writes "It has previously been claimed that to install Windows Vista from an upgrade DVD requires having Windows XP installed on your computer. DailyTech reports on a workaround: no previous version of Windows is required at all." Anyone know whether this workaround moots the finding by LXer that during upgrade Microsoft invalidates your original XP CD-key?

What a solution.

So instead of installing XP, and then Vista, you install Vista twice?

This is only a benefit for people who don't have a legitimate claim to using a Vista upgrade license seeing as an XP->Vista install would take significantly less time.

Re:What a solution.

I don't know where you get the notion that

an XP->Vista install would take significantly less time

. I've installed both numerous times, and the Vista install is faster on the wall clock, but it's also less intrusive. It asks most of the questions up front, meaning I can go about other tasks until the install is complete.

Then, if XP keys are /really/ invalidated, there's the possibility of a user deciding to revert. They shouldn't be stuck with Vista if they decide that it sucks so much that they can't stand it. They should be able to reinstall XP with their previous key. That said, I've seen no evidence that XP keys are invalidated, just a bunch of people making that wild claim on blogs and then linking to a story which only talks about what the EULA says.

Re:What a solution.

I'm honestly impressed if the Vista install is now as quick or quicker than an XP install.

Choose your words carefully. It almost sounds like you're implying that an XP install is "quick".

Re:What a solution.

True, it is a rumour that the XP keys get invalidated.

However, the EULA does explicitly say:

13. UPGRADES. To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligible
for the upgrade. Upon upgrade, this agreement takes the place of the agreement for the software
you upgraded from. After you upgrade, you may no longer use the software you upgraded from.

which does imply that you are not allowed to go back to XP.

And don't say that doesn't matter if the keys don't get invalidated. If you are going to
completely ignore the EULA, why are you not just pirating it in the first place?

Re:What a solution.

After you upgrade, you may no longer use the software you upgraded from.

I've seen that on other software, and wouldn't be surprised if XP, 2000, and even Me (ugh) had that phrase. The message is that you cannot keep using your old software while simultaneously using the new package. For example, if you have ten licenses of AutoCAD 2006, and you buy ten upgrade licenses of AutoCAD 2007, you can't have twenty computers running AutoCAD--or even eleven because of the new hire who you didn't know about when you purchased your upgrade (but just try to tell that to your boss, who seemed like he was having teeth pulled when you convinced him to upgrade from R13 to 2002).

As for downgrade prevention, MS has had that built in at least since 2000. The CD will simply refuse to perform the downgrade, and you'll have to reinstall from scratch.

So everyone be quiet about the serial invalidation rumor. You're giving MS ideas for their next software release!

Re:What a solution.

And don't say that doesn't matter if the keys don't get invalidated. If you are going to completely ignore the EULA, why are you not just pirating it in the first place?

Because ignoring a EULA which hasn't been proven to have any force in law and probably isn't worth the bits it occupies on the disk is a lot different to downloading the entire software without paying for it and installing it without any kind of license? Most licenses have to stand up to a test of reasonableness at the very least before they can have any kind of binding effect - if I have a legitimate copy of XP and install a Vista upgrade, don't like it and go back to XP I'd not have a hard time arguing in court that it was unreasonable for the EULA to prevent me doing this. To say that I have to either accept a blatantly unreasonable EULA or download pirated software and these are my only options is just wrong, the third option is to contest the EULA (and the fourth is to use *nix of course... or is that the first?)

Re:What a solution.

Before, the installer installed individual files from the disc which cause among other things pretty bad seek times.

With Vista, the installer now simply decompress an image file to your hard drive.
One can read on about WIM here and how to create and manipulate such images yourself: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windowsvista/aa 905070.aspx [microsoft.com]
A less technical article here: http://www.apcstart.com/3834/inside_vistas_new_ima ge_based_install [apcstart.com]

Re:What a solution.

This is only a benefit for people who don't have a legitimate claim to using a Vista upgrade license seeing as an XP->Vista install would take significantly less time.

Not necessarily. If an XP->Vista install does invalidate your XP key (an as yet unproven supposition), then what happens if your hard drive crashes and you need to reinstall Vista? Will it allow you to use the old XP key as an upgrade? Or what if you your install of XP is old and crufty and you can no longer find your install CD? This allows you to do a pristine install. It also means that once you upgrade, you don't need to keep the XP CD and key handy in case you have to reinstall.

Can you imagine if all of MS's OS's had this requirement?

"What are you doing?"

"Reinstalling. My hard drive crashed. I have to install Windows 3.1 from floppy, then upgrade to Windows 95, then upgrade that to Windows 2000, then upgrade that to XP and finally upgrade to Vista. I'll be finished in a couple of days."

Re:What a solution.

I wouldn't mind having Balmer over for dinner, as long as I first got a chance to firmly attach all my chairs to the floor. I could show him my collection of Linux machines.

"I'm going to fucking kill your roast beef!!!"

Much worse

Anyone know whether this workaround moots the finding by LXer that during upgrade Microsoft invalidates your original XP CD-key?

It's actually much worse. I tried this trick and went out grocery shopping. When I returned, all the locks on my house had been changed.

Re:Much worse

Are^H^H^HWere you married?

Use a dodgy XP key

You bought Vista right, so does it matter that you used to be a pirate?

If you do this, your already illicit key will be invalidated, but there is no consequence.

Re:Use a dodgy XP key

Unless MS note your fake XP CD-key is linked with Vista and cut you both off.

Re:Use a dodgy XP key

You bought Vista right, so does it matter that you used to be a pirate?

Yes, it does. The upgrade version is significantly cheaper that the full retail version solely because it is an upgrade. Thus, you still don't legally have a valid agreement for the use of Vista.

"Vista upgade cupon $60"

Intentional or not? I wonder if this will end up increasing the value of Vista upgrade coupons on eBay, or if this will be patched before more are mailed out.

Ryan Fenton

Wow

Isn't this kind of thing one of the most basic ways to try to cheat the system? How could something this obvious slip through?

No evidence for XP key invalidation

I've seen many blogs that proclaim that XP keys are invalidated after upgrading with Vista. They always link to a discussion of the EULA, which claims that the license is invalidated.

Is there any evidence whatsoever that Microsoft will invalidate XP keys for their WGA check (because they'll certainly still work to install the media) if you upgrade that installation of XP to Vista? Has anyone actually tried it?

Certainly, Microsoft could probably link the two installations, if you do an actual upgrade. If they can do that, what do you think they'll do to 'upgrade' copies that were installed using the Vista->Vista trick? Maybe they'll wait awhile, then decide that these copies are 'pirate' installations, and lock you out of upgrades (possibly drop you down to degraded mode) until you pay a fee to convert your installation to a Full install.

Re:No evidence for XP key invalidation

Is there any evidence whatsoever that Microsoft will invalidate XP keys for their WGA check (because they'll certainly still work to install the media) if you upgrade that installation of XP to Vista? Has anyone actually tried it?

Nope. And the clause itself is nothing new, as said even on the link provided in the summary - XP had the exact same one. But hey, it sounds shocking and just the thing Evil(tm) Micro$oft would do, so it must be true.

Re:No evidence for XP key invalidation

XP had the exact same one

The only problem is that when you upgraded to XP, MS had no way of "deactivating" your old copy of Win98, since you weren't required to register 98 to use it. Now they have the ability to flat out deny your registration of XP the next time you install. It's probably still FUD, but who knows.

Easier way

If you bought Vista Ultimate, and have a 64-bit CPU, there's an even easier way... install Vista Ultimate 64-bit version.

The 64-bit DVD booted fine and let me do a clean install from the upgrade CD. I typed in my ugprade CD key, hit next, and it prompted me to accept the license. (The 32-bit CD would not let me do a clean install, I did try that out. It said I had to start the process from within windows.)

Upgrade Process

Wouldn't the simpler way of ensuring a legitimate upgrade be to take your old XP key alongside the Vista upgrade key, then check them both with WGA? Considering that there's still no real Vista activation crack, it's probably even secure.

Instructions from the article...

God I hate when submitters force you to read an entire article, so heres the important bit:

1. Boot with the Windows Vista Upgrade DVD.
2. Click "Install Now."
3. Do not enter a Product Key When prompted.
4. When prompted, select the Vista product edition that you do have.
6. Install Vista normally.
7. Once the install is complete, restart the DVD-based Setup from within Windows Vista. Perform an in-place upgrade. 8. Enter your Product Key when prompted.

Please Explain.

God I hate when submitters force you to read an entire article....

Explain this "reading an article" to us here on Slashdot.

a step

Well, it sounds like this is (half) a step in the right direction. I wonder how long it will be before someone finds a way to convert the "trial" install to a full version without needing to rerun the entire install process. It seems like there must be a way to run oobe.exe or something to validate/convert your trial version.

EULA is still unclear

I've still not managed to get a clear answer to whether the EULA for Vista means you can never re-install it.

The problem is that the upgrade version invalidates the agreement for XP, which means you are not allowed to re-install XP, which is needed to re-install Vista...

I suppose this work-around does allow you to re-install Vista, but they may well remove this in the future.

I submitted a support request to Microsoft about this a few days ago, but they haven't responded.

Obligatory fanboy remark

Oh, my... Will the spyware require me to have a valid Fedora Core 5 license to install my new FC6? Or will I have to go out a buy a whole new laptop that can handle all of that awesome power?

Heh heh - Just kiddin'.

Still asking questions? Ok here are MY suggestions

Five years, a couple of hundred million dollars and they still do installs like it's 1989?

Dear Redmond;

A few tips on how modern install media should work:

1) Ask no questions except to put in the install key upfront. Run everything else with basic assumptions. Run the config AFTER installation.

2) Allow for the easy and well documented input of a param file to create an install script on the fly.

3) Do a hardware seek FIRST instead of preloading every old SCSI driver and whatnot. Look, you guys do a bad job of supporting that stuff anyway, so why bother?

4) Provide a tool to EASILY and automatically move the install CD to a thumb drive and install from there. We are building machines that have neither floppy drives nor CD drives either.

5) For god's sake provide some kind of reasonably good toolset to recover a drive from an alternate boot medium. Enough is enough already that your OS 'can't run' from Boot Floppies and whatnot to run critical tools like fixboot and fixmbr. Just write some damn tools that DO work. Or write a console that runs in toto from some source other than the install CD which many of us NEVER GET.

6) Learn to work with LILO already. Would it actually kill you?

7) Look at a calendar. This is 2007, start acting like there's been some improvement in installation tools in the last 20 years.

Alternative way to install from upgrade disc

What you need is a copy of legitcontrolcheck.dll from any validated and activated copy of XP on a partition anywhere on your machine, then:

1.) create \windows\system32\ on any partition you want (even extended partitions)
2.) copy a validated 'legitcontrolcheck.dll file into the directory.
3.) you might need ntdetect.com and ntldr in the root, (try without)

(I've not tested this)

WV_SP1

This WILL be fixed with an install of Windows Vista - Service Pack 1 - Warm and Crunchy Edition. Freedom is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You must comply. ~Collective
Why do you resist? We only wish to raise quality of life for all species. ~Locutus :)

On a good note, this means that you will be able to re-install a year later when the system gets bogged down, or have they moved the "Detect and Repair" to the operating system...hmmmmm

Will this cause Bill to run away from more interviews...

Slashdot FUD

Anyone know whether this workaround moots the finding by LXer that during upgrade Microsoft invalidates your original XP CD-key?

How about, "invalid question since Vista doesn't do that?". Please stop trying to be the new digg and spreading misinformation.

Pointless to do this to save money.

It's great from an "I don't want to install XP to install Vista on a reinstall" standpoint. However, to do it just to save money doesn't work. The cost for Vista Ultimate Upgrade, for example, is $249. The cost for Vista Ultimate OEM is $199. The OEM works the same as retail, no installing twice and $50 cheaper. Am I missing something here? Using either on a system to get out of buying retail breaks the ULA anyway. Might as well save $50 while you are at it.

Re:Pointless to do this to save money.

OEM license can't be moved to a new machine. Are you planning on any sort of complete upgrade over the next four years (including collectively replacing every component, even if not all at once)?

Then, according to MS, you're SOL. At some point, with either a completely new system rebuild or enough significant upgrades, your OEM license will be invalidated.

You could probably call up and beg MS, but they are under no obligation to issue you a new key or reactivate your old one.

Am I a genius and know all about this stuff? No, it's just what I understand to be the case after reading the comments from from linked article, where they raise the same question.

On a side note, I just bought XP-Pro. It comes with a free upgrade to Vista. If I can use that upgrade for a different system using this hack, then WOOHOO! A two-fer!

I wonder what the source looks like...

I can just see it now: ... (somewhere in the vista source)

# upgrade check module

if 1=1 then #only for testing! remove in production! -boss
                        #heh heh, can you imagine if this made it into the gold master? -dilbert
                        #we don't have to imagine...*merged to gold master* - catbert ... (do upgrade)

It's worse then you thought.

If you choose to purchase an upgrade version of Windows Vista to upgrade XP, you will no longer be able to use that version of XP. Either on another system, or as a dual-boot option. The key will be invalidated, preventing activation.

Actually, it deactivates your XP Key.
Actually, it causes your XP CD to melt.
Actually, it sends all your personal information to Microsoft to make sure you don't re-install it.
Actually, it makes lawyers show up at your door if you touch the XP CD again.
Actually, it uses alien mind-ray technology to make sure you forget your XP key.

Actually, it doesn't do anything, it's just there to "legally" stop you from running both XP and the Vista upgrade at the same time.

Now stop making stupid assumptions. Remember, when you assume, you make an ass out of yourself (leave me the hell out of it).

Classic Microsoft

Not only do they make the upgrade process more tedious, at the same stroke they make it much easier to abuse.

Some interesting ideas...

Maybe you could even try installing from ReactOS.

Hell, you could even try to install from a trial version of XP, in theory.

Dunno if those would work, but it would be interesting to find out.

Confirmed, and why this is important

WindowsSecrets.com's latest newsletter also has this information [windowssecrets.com]. "The secret is that the setup program in Vista's upgrade version will accept an installed copy of XP, W2K, or an unactivated copy of Vista itself as evidence of a previous installation." (Emphasis theirs!) They also address the ethics issues.

Why is this important? Because a clean Vista install is strongly preferred to an in-place upgrade install (munging your existing XP installation so it's now a Vista installation); but Microsoft does not allow this [microsoft.com]: "you cannot use an upgrade key to perform a clean installation of Windows Vista". This same Microsoft Knowledge Base article then provides a workaround, the same thing discussed by DailyTech and WindowsSecrets: "Start the installation from a compliant version of Windows, such as Windows Vista, Microsoft Windows XP, or Microsoft Windows 2000. After you have started the installation, you can select Custom at the installation choice screen to perform a clean installation."

I'm glad for this particular huge security hole, but it makes me wonder how many more they are.

why blow up about this?

It has been this way for every DOS and Windows upgrade, EVER.

Hello?
  McFly?!

Upgrade nightmare

Here's my experience with a "free" "upgrade" to VISTA. I didn't even think you might not be allowed to dual boot. I'm a developer. I should have thought.

http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.games.micros oft.flight-sim/browse_frm/thread/87ae9b5715aa9220/ aadcae3403b448e6?lnk=st&q=&rnum=54&hl=en#aadcae340 3b448e6 [google.com.au]
http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.games.micros oft.flight-sim/browse_frm/thread/3ec1191e7c81b8e9/ ?hl=en# [google.com.au]

I'm still having dramas adding the state I live in to my address, and I've been told not to expect a VISTA upgrade DVD until April.

Microsoft may have some of the smartest developers on the planet but it's a company run by arrogant fools. If they make it really hard to be legit, they'll reap what they sew. Unfortunately if they go down they'll take a lot of people with them, and if this DRM BS stands it makes the PC a less useful too. It's a no win.

Most Users Are Still Toast.

Imagine user A -- he cleans his disk in preparation for a vista install, then starts the install. Vista complains that that he doesn't have an old version of Windows on his machine... How's he going to find out about this workaround now???

The user is 'forced' to go back and re-instal XP just to install Vista again.... Ends up with a slightly bastardized system (bits of XP left hanging off the disk). May, or may not, eventually find out about the work around and kick self.

Now if MS really is stupid enough to actually invalidate the XP key as a part of the upgrade process, (s)he is going to be sooo toast if there is ever a (perceived) need for a re-install.

This fix is great for the 1-2% of the population that reads slashdot and perhaps another 10-20% that ask us for help, but the rest of the population is gonna be toast if something happens (either on purpose or by accident) to the partition that XP was originally installed on.

Re:duh

but it could send your xp key to microsoft, who add it to a database and the next time you use XP it phones home and volia your key is no longer valid. I refused to upgrade from win2k to xp. there's still nothing new in Vista that can't be done in win2k.

Re:Oh great so now I need a DVD player?

Shouldn't a DVD-ROM be the least of your Vista required upgrade worries?

Re:Oh great so now I need a DVD player?

Try this [newegg.com]. Lite-on makes great drives and this DVD burner is only $28.99. You can save a whopping $5 if you don't need to burn.

Re:Real question?

...you actually buy computers with a name on the front and with stuff already on the hard drive?

Wow...I thought you folks didn't exist anymore...at least not on teh slash....

Re:Real question?

Most reviewers don't see it as any great leap forward, and everyone is waiting for the damn thing to be hacked. Microsoft's reputation is so bad on OS security that nobody seems interested in anything else.

Re:Real question?

Well, it worked until some *&^%$# told 80,000 /. users!