Confidential Microsoft Emails Posted Online
Posted by
CowboyNeal
on Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:10 AM
from the behind-the-curtain dept.
from the behind-the-curtain dept.
dos4who writes "From the class action 'Comes et al. v. Microsoft' suit, some very enlightening internal Microsoft emails are now made public. Emails to and from Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Jim Allchin, etc all make for some mind blowing reading. One of my favorites is from Jim Allchin to Bill Gates, entitled 'losing our way,' in which Allchin states 'I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft.'"
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Confidential Microsoft Emails Posted Online
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2001 (Score:5, Funny)
Re:2001 (Score:4, Funny)
(http://ettlz.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Sunday February 12 2006, @06:53PM)
Re:2001 (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.last.fm/user/uhlume/)
One of my favorites (Score:5, Interesting)
"Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language."
Re:One of my favorites (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:One of my favorites (Score:5, Interesting)
It was written the the Visual J++ Product Manager.
This speaks volumes to the company's strategy.
Re:One of my favorites (Score:5, Informative)
From the links:
A program manager "[l]eads the technical side of a product development team, managing and defining the functional specifications and defining how the product will work." These PMs are, as you intimate, a dime a dozen at microsoft.
A product manager "[f]ormulates business and marketing strategy." These PMs have a lot of authority and make decisions at a much higher level.
Just compare the description of a product manager [microsoft.com] compared to that of a program manager [microsoft.com].
There are a 110 product manager job openings at MSFT compared to 365 program manager openings.
Re:One of my favorites (Score:4, Informative)
That's BS. For example, Jim Allchin is the Windows Product Manager. He had pretty much the final say over what features were and weren't included in Vista during its development.
Context is important (Score:5, Interesting)
As an EDSer, I've seen plenty of my former colleagues take a "screw EDS" view in their new companies... they were dissatisfied with aspects of business and how they were managed (sometimes justifiably, sometimes not so much); until they became just as disafected by their new employers, they were considerably hostile in words and action, at times, to their old employer.
Given that they were involved with J++, discussing a cross-platform mandate (big with Slashdotters, but not even a blip on the radar screen with 99% of Microsoft's customer base), and the context of the discussion involved co-opting lessons learned and design imperitives (not really the product itself), this discussion was not exactly the smoking gun you guys would like it to be.
Context. (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://lists.clickers.org/linuxsig/index.html | Last Journal: Friday November 09, @11:00PM)
Given that they were involved with J++, discussing a cross-platform mandate (big with Slashdotters, but not even a blip on the radar screen with 99% of Microsoft's customer base), and the context of the discussion involved co-opting lessons learned and design imperatives (not really the product itself), this discussion was not exactly the smoking gun you guys would like it to be.
The attitude is not so easily dismissed and it shows itself again and again. While the comment might be aimed at Sun, it ultimately harms the customer.
"Cross-platform" is a huge subject that customers deeply care about but one that M$ customers will always be disappointed with. People desperately want their computers and other devices to work together but it's not going to happen with a company like M$ around. People want their PDA, cameras, portable music players and DVRs to work together and share information. Anyone trying to provide that for customers on a M$ platform is doomed to have their work broken when M$ inevitably comes in to steal the market. "Let's steal java," is a perfect example. When he says that, he means "we have the market share and can define what works and what does not." I watched them do the same thing to Palm, when "security" updates screwed over sync on W2K, so that the new Windoze Pocket PCs could gain market share. And, we've seen the same kind of thing in portable music players [theregister.co.uk]. The third E of EEE is extinguish. Once the treat to M$ dominance has been removed, the thing stolen will be ignored or removed. The issue is so much larger than Java and one or two employees. When you sum up all the pieces, the picture that emerges is not pretty at all, is it?
Re:Context. (Score:5, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Friday August 17, @08:29AM)
There is a point of diminishing returns, where MOST consumers simply don't want an all-in-one device, for example, or simply don't care to have a spreadsheet work in Linux and Windows. People just want to turn on a computer and USE it. They want to turn on a DVR and USE it. They want to dial a number and USE it. Inter-operability, multi-functionality, cross-platform code... all results in more complexity, and usually a "Jack of all trades, master of none" device. This is also known as the "lowest common denominator".
Exactly. They just want to be able to buy a DVR and hook it up to their existing television and use it, without worrying about ensuring they're the same brand or dealing with masses of different, subtly incompatible, non-standard products. What's more, most of the time they can. (It's odd how incompatibilty, lack of standardization, and the resulting inconveniences, monocultures and near-monopolies are so widespread in software, when people wouldn't stand for it elsewhere.)
Linux material (Score:4)
In doing so, I noticed the first hit is a document outlining their strategy for partially breaking networking compatibility with Linux. "Our Linux Strategy" [iowaconsumercase.org]
Another document [iowaconsumercase.org] from January of '99 describes Linux's greatest strength over NT as its flexibility, and its greatest weakness as its ease of use (although nearly every usage problem specifically mentioned no longer applies in modern Linux distributions). It also describes two of their worst-case scenarios being that IBM and Sun adopt Linux. One quote of interest is, "There is the very real long term threat that as MS expends the development dollars to create a bevy of new features in NT, Linux will simply cherry pick the best features an [sic] incorporate them into their codebase. The effect of patents and copyright in combatting Linux remains to be investigated."
Re:broken legal system (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://trolltalk.com/ | Last Journal: Saturday November 03, @08:45PM)
These aren't "illegal leaks" - they're evidence that has been made public - and rightfully so - because justice must not only be done, but seen to be done. Don't expect to be able to keep illegal anti-competitive activities secret because of some non-existent "corporate right to privacy."
Re:broken legal system (Score:5, Informative)
(http://trolltalk.com/ | Last Journal: Saturday November 03, @08:45PM)
It was originally attorneys-only.
Subsequent litigation .... different case .... documents admitted into evidence .... court ruled they can be made public in this instance.
Its the same as the original AT&T / BSD agreement. It *was* secret, but the world has changed, its no longer secret ...
Re:But corporations are people too! (Score:5, Informative)
(http://trolltalk.com/ | Last Journal: Saturday November 03, @08:45PM)
The "right to privacy" doesn't extend to evidence admitted in open court.
This is necessary to uphold the integrity of the courts. Otherwise, people won't know the basis on which a finding of guilt or innocence was made, leading to all sorts of accusations of favoritism and backroom deals, bribes, etc.
BullSh*t (Score:5, Informative)
Giving corporations HUMAN rights is completely messed up. They should enjoy the same rights as any group of people, but they should never be given human rights. Microsoft is allowed to have internal documents that it can protect. But when these documents are demanded by a court, the court can allow the documents to be made public. The judge has allowed Roxanne Connlin to release all of these documents on the website. Microsoft has petitioned to keep some documents out of the public domain, and these documents are not on the site.
Curiously, this is the first time that Bill Gates testimony to the DOJ is viewable by the public. This case is shining a great deal of light on Microsoft business practices.
Re:broken legal system (Score:5, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Sunday November 06 2005, @11:51PM)
Re:broken legal system (Score:5, Informative)
(Last Journal: Tuesday September 13 2005, @03:45PM)
No leaks at all.
Re:broken legal system (Score:4, Funny)
(Last Journal: Tuesday September 13 2005, @03:45PM)
Email (Score:5, Funny)
In communist Russia... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:In communist Russia... (Score:4, Funny)
(http://nzruss.blogspot.com/)
Re:In communist Russia... (Score:5, Funny)
No. Please don't.
It just goes to say that (Score:4, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Saturday April 01 2006, @09:51PM)
Re:It just goes to say that (Score:5, Funny)
Groklaw coverage (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://arungoodboy.wordpress.com/ | Last Journal: Monday June 18, @06:41AM)
Re:Groklaw coverage (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://stsp.name/)
Which is hilarious in itself :)
Quote:
2-and-a-half years later, Windows Vista has turned into a phenomenal product, better than any other OS we've ever built and far, far better than any other software available today, in my opinion. It's going to be available to customers on Jan 30, and I suggest everyone go out and get it as soon as you can. It's that good.Next thing he says is:
The spirit of being self-critical continues to flourish at Microsoft.
Re:Groklaw coverage (Score:4, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Saturday May 15 2004, @08:33PM)
Next thing he says is:
The spirit of being self-critical continues to flourish at Microsoft.
You are not seeing the people who are already working on making their feature 'have more features'. You are not seeing the work that the team is doing in preparation for a Service Pack, which will not add much in the way of new features but will address any late breaking issues or customer-reported features requests/bugs. And most importantly, you aren't seeing the individuals who are extremely passionate about the products that are shipped by Microsoft, the people who write ranting emails to other teams, the people who use the product and file bugs about how something is lame, or the people who go to meetings and sometimes have to get in to shouting matches with other people who just don't get it.
Vista, like it or not, has turned into a 'phenomenal' product, by definition. Is it better than any other OS MS has released? Well, in some places it is, and in some places it isn't. There is a lot of new code that fixes a lot of old issues, but there are new behaviors that are less than pleasant. Is it far better than any other software available today? I don't really know what that even means. 'Better' in usability, stability, feature-bredth, customer-focus, opportunity for 3rd party develops, source code quantity? Who knows, luckily he put 'in my opinion' after it so we don't have to try to figure it out.
But, the point is: The spirit of being self-critical is alive, and though every now and then it suffers a minor setback those events are simply small battles in the larger war.
Re:Groklaw coverage (Score:5, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Thursday May 24, @01:08AM)
Re:Groklaw coverage (Score:5, Informative)
Try this: http://web.archive.org/web/20041205152641/www.appl e.com/ilife/video/ilife04_320.html [archive.org]
Embarrassing stuff.
Re:Groklaw coverage (Score:4, Insightful)
including a clarification from Allchin on that 'I'd buy a Mac' quote.
Where I live we don't call that clarification, we call that spin.
Clarification and Implications. (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://yro.slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/177855 | Last Journal: Sunday November 04, @10:56PM)
Nothing could be more clear than the intention of the rant, so I'll type it here for those too lazy to click the link. It deserves the space.
-Jim Allchin, January 07 2004
It's obvious they did not listen to him and that's good for everyone. Vista is 10 GB in size and wastes all sorts of processing power for it's DRM insanity, after they dropped their silly new file system and many other vaporware improvements. While it will be difficult if not impossible to make Vista work under Linux or Mac, it's not going to matter because Vista is going to kill the platform. The failure of Vista, more than the failure of Zune and Xbox shows that M$ is going to have to compete on something other than, "It's M$ and you are going to need them tomorrow no matter how crappy their stuff is."
HAHAHA (Score:5, Insightful)
Classic stuff.
Coral Cache (Score:4, Informative)
(http://www.geocities.com/jim_bowery | Last Journal: Tuesday September 19 2006, @10:20PM)
Thats nothing.. (Score:3, Insightful)
(http://www.moogr.com/ | Last Journal: Friday October 31 2003, @12:16PM)
Losing our way? (Score:4, Insightful)
Now this gets me thinking, because we in FLOSS care a lot about security and performance, but not too much about the end users experience and the applications that are important to them. We all know how Apple just Gets It(tm) and we should, too, if we ever want to expand our installed base and market share beyond geeks and tech savvy users.
Re:Losing our way? (Score:4, Funny)
try:
COPY NUL: C:\COMMAND.COM
Re:Losing our way? (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://www.soundepartment.com/)
You're right, under 60% or so they're merely "predatory practices!" :D
It fits people's needs by being on their computer when they bought it; people don't choose OS's, they're considered features of the box you pay for. Thus, Windows is useable for people, but the economic signal that drives Windows quality is the demands of the OEM bundlers, not the users. MS is trying to change this slowly, and maybe they'll just have to start selling their own computers at some point.
It's an important part of a bunch of positive feedback loop, not least of which is: more users -> more developers -> more software titles -> more users.
Re:Losing our way? (Score:5, Interesting)
Netscape was better up until around Netscape 4, when it turned into a clunky, steaming pile, and IE actually became the better, smoother, more enjoyable browser for a while. Today, Firefox is better.
After Corel bought Quattro Pro and WordPerfect, they turned into steaming piles. I know... I worked there. :-) I think around WordPerfect 9, there was a latency in your typing that made it feel like a telnet session. And it crashed a lot. Excel and Word crash too, but generally, they've always been consistently solid, enjoyable products that get the job done.
Could this explain... (Score:1, Funny)
Stay tuned!
Very Interesting -- Tux Looms Large! Who Knew? (Score:4, Interesting)
The Linux Strategy???
Since we now know that Microsoft is willing (nay, obsessed) to go "to the mat", as it were, the Linux strategy should be to exploit this tendancy as often as possible. If it happens often enough, either it will become an un-tenable situation for Microsoft, wherein after Microsoft will no longer be able to make any kind of TCO statements regarding Linux vs. Microsoft; and/or else they will go broke in all these no-profit deals (okay, admittedly, it will take them awhile to go broke... but it could happen!
If nothing else, these documents reveal _very_ publically (what many of us already knew) that Microsoft is scared SHITLESS of Linux.
Why should the market leader (a monopolistic, strong-arming, dirty-tricks, no-holds-barred leader at that!) be scared of a FREE operating system and open-source applications-- unless they can see that their dominant position is deeply threatened?
Maybe Balmer will throw some more chairs at somebody. Better be prepared to duck fast.
I wonder what business Microsoft will get into after computers, software and IT?
Re:Very Interesting -- Tux Looms Large! Who Knew? (Score:5, Interesting)
Given that the youth of America have been brought up on MS products, they're going to have a stronger attachement to them than those of us who were brought up on Commodores, Amigas, and Apples. MS *clearly* knows this. Think about that.
Wishful Thinking (Score:5, Interesting)
This is because the promise of Linux has been wasted by the lack of production of true killer applications, allowing both Microsoft and Apple to further embed their OS's among their faithful.
New systems shipping with Vista are sticking a finger in the Penguin's eye, because when it comes down to it, its all about the apps.
Re:Wishful Thinking (Score:5, Insightful)
I remember sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for Linux's world domination, but I don't think that that was ever its promise. The whole concept of the "killer application", IMHO, runs contrary to the Linux way of doing things. In fact, the more obviously useful a "Linux" app tends to be to large numbers of people, the more likely you are to see Windows and OS X ports.
Linux let users run whatever machine they could get their hands on and have a stable, supported (as in patched and secure) system that would run current apps while the Mac and Windows worlds had people running to the store to replace perfectly good machines. Schools in under-funded districts and governments in poor countries slowly discover that proprietary software vendors hold them over a barrel while FLOSS just gives and gives. These aren't strategies that get you ahead by the next fiscal quarter, but they get you ahead of where you were four or five years ago.
MSFT and Apple fight for their share of consumers (and MSFT pretty much takes the business world for granted) while the FLOSS world makes sure to keep doing what they're doing and their share of developers, enterprise users, and savvy home users expands slowly but steadily. Linux isn't out to get people to come on board because it's got something you'll be deprived of if you don't, and it isn't out to attack or exploit how the other guys slip up. Hell, Linux isn't marching lock-step towards any single goal - it's fragmented, huge numbers of disparate groups and individuals working towards different ends, which Linus has said is exactly what he likes to see. Linux developers achieve a means to an end, polish up the rough edges when they've got something that's going to be around for a while and the users demand it, and let you get off the roller coaster of everyone else deciding what latest and greatest features you just have to have. You want Linux? Here it is. You want to wait a few years for it to improve some more? It will, and it will still be yours for the asking. [insert stream vs. boulder or similar Taoist metaphor]