AMD's New 12nm Ryzen Laptop Chips Look To Put the Pressure on Intel (theverge.com) 105
AMD has been pushing its Ryzen lineup of processors for a few years now, with the company looking to put pressure on Intel's seemingly unbeatable hold on the chip landscape. From a report: At CES 2019, AMD unveiled its second generation of Ryzen laptop chips, which look to jump ahead of Intel's 14nm roadblock to offer some of the first 12nm processors on the market. To that end, AMD is launching a new lineup of Ryzen 3, Ryzen 5, and Ryzen 7 chips across both the 15W U-series and 35W H-series lineups, almost all of which are built off of the company's new 12nm Zen+ architecture. For the more powerful H-series, there are a pair of new chips: the Ryzen 7 3750H, offering four cores / eight threads, a base clock speed of 2.3 GHz (which can boost to 4.0 GHz), and the Ryzen 5 3550H, also a four core / eight thread processor, but with a 2.1 GHz base speed (which can boost to 3.7 GHz), and only eight GPU cores to the Ryzen 7 3750H's ten. Further reading: AMD Gets Serious About Chromebooks at CES 2019.
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Meltdown, Spectre, etc (Score:3, Interesting)
Are CPUs with the same number of cores/threads immune from some of those security holes?
(ex: The new entry-level 2018 Mac mini has an i3 with 4 cores/4 threads)
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Couldn't you post that in the main thread?
Why put your rant below my post? I don't care about the orange guy, I don't even live in the USA.
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Meltdown and Spectre don't depend on the number of cores/threads.
These attacks exploit branch prediction and cache timing, and even single core CPUs are affected.
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Meltdown is Intel-only, it is because of Intel allows speculative execution involving addresses that are supposed to be unreadable. Spectre is helped by hyperthreading but still works even without hyperthreading.
Re:Meltdown, Spectre, etc (Score:5, Informative)
Meltdown was never a problem on any AMD CPU. That's Intel.
Spectre affects Intel, AMD, Power, and even some ARM designs. It's unclear what mitigations AMD may have added but since these are based on Zen+ rather than Zen 2, it's likely the same as the more recent desktop chips (Ryzen 7 2700 and so on )
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Meltdown was never a problem on AMD but it was a problem on Apple ARM, so not only Intel.
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Frequency doesn't matter. It's possible for a newer chip to be faster and yet have a slower frequency.
Goto a benchmark site and look at all the frequencies of different generations of chips. When intel launched core/core2 chips they smoked pentium 4 chips that ran at higher frequencies.
Similarly, AMD's newer ryzen chips are significantly faster than bulldozer and piledriver chips and at lower frequency.
The only time frequency is really helpful is if you're comparing the same architecture and generation.
Zen 1.0 (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Zen 1.0 (Score:4, Informative)
No, the 3000 series APUs are Zen+, the second generation, same as Ryzen 2700 etc. Zen 2, the 3000 series non-APUs are third generation Zen. I know, it's confusing. Just remember, the new APUs are 12nm, with modest IPC and clock speed improvements vs first generation Zen.
Intel should not worry too much... (Score:2)
...for AMD has been trying for decades with no success. In addition, name recognition alone favors Intel as far as I can tell.
The mantra "Intel Inside" in the late 90s & early 2000s made it seem like, "If it's not Intel, then you're doing something wrong" or "you aren't getting the 'best' deal."
That mind-share kind of stuck.
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I think it is more to the fact, that AMD makes a set of chips which are a little better then Intel, then they ride that train until the chips are out of date, while Intel keeps their designs up to date,
Back in the Mid 2000's with the Multi-Core (Core 2 Duo) chips really shook up the competition back then. And put AMD into a 13+ year tail spin.
The problem is going with Intel you are probably going to get the fastest chip for its model. While with AMD you might be able to get the best performance for the doll
Re:Intel should not worry too much... (Score:5, Insightful)
Back in the early 2000's AMD had a clear and convincing lead in both absolute performance and price-performance for 2.5-3 years. Intel successfully kept them out of mass-market OEM products and cash-starved AMD was not able to keep up with Intel's research budget-- eventually paying a $1.25B settlement to AMD but this was not sufficient to make AMD whole.
Following that, we've had an extended period of stagnation on Intel's side until this point where AMD is again neck and neck with them.
The processor market is a whole lot better for everyone when this competition exists.
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This competition would be even better for everyone if Intel didn't keep cheating.
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Back in the early 2000's AMD had a clear and convincing lead in both absolute performance and price-performance for 2.5-3 years. Intel successfully kept them out of mass-market OEM products and cash-starved AMD was not able to keep up with Intel's research budget -- eventually paying a $1.25B settlement to AMD but this was not sufficient to make AMD whole.
September 23rd, 2003: AMD launches Athlon 64, kicking ass
July 24th 2006: AMD buys ATI for $5.4 billion
July 27th 2006: Intel launches the Core 2 Duo
They had more than $5 billion to invest in R&D/fab technology. They spent it on graphics instead and on top of that Intel took the opportunity to throw nVidia out of the IGP market, giving them full control over chipsets and the chance to undermine the graphics market by integrating their graphics on the CPU. Almost nobody took advantage of the APU synergy be
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My wife had $500 to invest in some Kickstarter whinge. Instead she spent it on a pig, which is now fattening up in the back yard, on some weird personal hypothesis that bacon is a going concern, although I have my own doubts, and Kickstarter is never wrong.
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I don't really understand what you meant by that. But the fact that you have bacon in your back yard would make me +mod this if I had points... You lucky man, you. Enjoy that bacon. Make sure to fatten it up with some good slop so it tastes good too. Not that bacon can taste bad, at least I'm pretty sure about that.
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That sounds like a lot of money, huh? But A) it wasn't all cash, and B) a leading-edge process node for processors costs $2.5B or more. Design costs for an microprocessor are a couple billion.
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I think it is more to the fact, that AMD makes a set of chips which are a little better then Intel, then they ride that train until the chips are out of date, while Intel keeps their designs up to date
Like most things, I think there are a number of factors involved. I think the GP is half right, half incidentally-right. I think that while Intel is a household name that even nontechnical people know, AMD is...less so. Convincing people to buy a $700 AMD-based laptop vs. a $700 Intel-based laptop is going to be a very tough sell, even if they were identical in every other way. In the mid-2000s, when 3GHz Athlon64 processors were superior performance for similar prices, there was room for AMD to compete. Ho
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Actually, divesting the fabs was more important to AMD's survival than acquiring ATI. Arguably, the ATI investment could have been better employed in internal R&D. In an alternate universe, AMD still owns the console market, but with Nvidia GPU cores. Anyway, I like that AMD has ATI, but I am not sure it was the optimal path in retrospect.
And incidentally, looking forward to 7nm Navi later this year. Also wondering how AMD will answer the raytracing challenge.
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Actually, divesting the fabs was more important to AMD's survival than acquiring ATI.
Absolutely correct. Now that Intel is faltering in this department, they look like geniuses.
Arguably, the ATI investment could have been better employed in internal R&D. In an alternate universe, AMD still owns the console market, but with Nvidia GPU cores.
Nvidia has delusions of grandeur. They probably wouldn't go for it. They want to be in control.
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I think it is more to the fact, that AMD makes a set of chips which are a little better then Intel, then they ride that train until the chips are out of date, while Intel keeps their designs up to date,
You might want to review who rides their train to the bitter end. Recall the super pipeline of the P4 architecture that got its ass whooped by AMD's Opteron? Intel then essentially copied AMD's approach. Remember the x64 extensions? By AMD again? Intel licensed those. Then recall the various antitrust lawsuits Intel lost to AMD to the tune of several billion dollars which was the result of Intel using their market leverage to severely hurt AMD in the market? And now AMD has come back with Ryzen, a better de
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I think technically that lawsuit is what gave us Ryzen. So technically Intel bought Ryzen for AMD. We should thank them.
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The version I always heard was: "Looks nice on the outside but...Intel Inside".
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There is a difference now. Intel has been stuck on the same process for several years. They're not innovating right now.
AMD chips are also more secure due to lack of meltdown issues. Both are affected by spectre of course.
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Intel's biggest innovation recently was to get fully behind Linux. That has really helped them build sales in the data center, their main saving grace.
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Intel's killing backward compatibility with UEFI 3 soon. They are not open source friendly.
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Where AMD is, more so in the Graphics division I believe.
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I've been proudly applying my included AMD labels to my cases since my first Athlon. (I had a K6, but I bought it bare.) And then there was the mockery, e.g. Evil Inside, FDIV Inside...
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I would hope there's now a "Zen Inside" label on it.
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I would hope there's now a "Zen Inside" label on it.
The plan is to have Zen2 inside, probably. I'm still on a FX-8350, which is still doing what I need it to.
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zen 1 with nvme from 8370 with ssd felt like atleast 3x as fast for everything. its lovely. and wasn't very expensive even with fast ram.
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zen 1 with nvme from 8370 with ssd felt like atleast 3x as fast for everything. its lovely. and wasn't very expensive even with fast ram.
I have a Samsung 850 Pro 512MB, so I have adequate SSD. What I don't have right now is work...
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Yea thats not a bad one. I stick with cheap ssd's mainly. They do the job and dont kill the wallet. But NVME is in another realm. As for the work part... That's shitty hope it works out. Vegas always has companies hiring, casino corps. is where its at. And I know a lot of people that leave california for here and love it.
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Nah, I'm over pissing in a cup, and I quit tobacco. Either way, a casino is no place for me. Not to mention that the whole point of such a business is to take advantage of people's addictions. Sick, sad world.
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Well since weed is legal here the majority of companies dont UA for new hires. Plus lower cost of living. I was raised here so i learned at a young age gambling is bad. But an addiction is an addiction. It's the person that needs to change. And I used to be addicted to drugs. It's easy if you want to stop something.
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I don't want to stop something. It's the system that needs to change. I'm tired of feeding the wrong beast. If that means I suffer, well, I've been suffering anyway.
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The problem is that, for quite a while, AMD CPUs did not perform as well as Intel on a dollar-per-dollar basis. They cost more, performed worse, and ate up more energy.
The Ryzen CPUs consume less power and are close to equaling the per-core performance of Intel (they only lack in high-end gaming, but that could change). They can make up performance differences by providing more cores and better value. If the recent leaks are to be believed, AMD will double max core counts. They may even have 6/8-core AP
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No, AMD cpus never cost more. And by Steamroller the value equation was firmly back on AMD's side. Zen was a sea change, leaving Intel far behind in value, and Zen 2 will add insult to injury by also grabbing the single core performance crown.
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Intel makes profits by building silicon more cheaply than others who have to buy it from a foundry
That used to be true until TSMC and Samsung outgrew them and outsmarted them.
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Intel is changing architectures pretty drastically, to a CCX design, while trying to fix speculative exploits via hardware. I think you'll see performance drop, as you dont change architectures without losing performance.
ECC Support?! (Score:1)
All AMD Ryzen Zen, etc CPU's support ECC RAM.
So which laptops have motherboards that support ECC RAM?
My systems all run ECC, I won't buy anything without it,
and tired of buying Intel which really only has it in Xeon,
some i3's, and a few other non leading lines.
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Re:ECC Support?! (Score:4, Interesting)
Unless you use your laptop often on commercial jets, ECC isn't getting you much extra protection closer to sea level.
The best thing about ECC isn't protection from cosmic ray bit-flips, it's protection from memory cell failure. I haven't had full ECC since I was a Sun guy since I'd rather have fast RAM, but it's pretty great when the machine corrects for a memory failure and lets you know about it so that you can order replacement parts without any interruption of service.
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No, speed is the rub. You can't get really high speed RAM in ECC. Or if you can, it costs all the money. Compare like speeds and ECC costs much more than t% more.
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People who want ECC memory want it for a reason. Pointing out yet again that most people don't need it much most of the time is not helpful.
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Replying to myself - just checked the PassMark site to help illustrate my point.
So, in single thread performance, what do you think is the highest place that an AMD cpu attains?
Top ten? Top twenty?
Nope, not even vaguely close. According to my count (which is not easy to make given how far down the list it is), the top AMD cpu is in roughly one hundred and tenth place. Yep, 110th, no accidental extra digits.
Call me when AMD is _really_ catching up. (Oh yes, and I DO want them to catch up - I just need it to
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You missed one.
At position # 103, AMD Ryzen Threadripper 2850X at 3.50 GHz with a score of 2,211.
That's against # 1, Intel Core I9-9900K at 3.60 GHz with a score of 2,897.
For the single thread PassMark test, the Intel processor is 31% faster, and it's less expensive.
My home processor is i7-870, with a PassMark single thread score of 1,302. It's disappointing that in seven years performance has improved only 122%
I'm not sure if this is impressive or not (Score:2)
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And how does it look when you compare AMD integrated graphics with Intel integrated graphics?
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It's relevant for entry-level laptops. There's no discrete graphic cards in those.
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AMD might introduce a future APU with HBM2 onboard a multi-chip module. This will basically be a GPU card in the CPU. Limiting factors are HBM2 price ramp and thermal envelope. I guess it's probably going to happen, maybe by this time next year.
MacBook Air (Score:2)
Too bad Apple is married to Intel, I would have loved to see a 15 watts Ryzen inside the 2018 MacBook Air.
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I doubt that Apple is all that loyal. Let's see what happens when AMD closes up the single core performance gap.
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I don't think ARM is quite there yet. No SMT for one thing.
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I doubt that Apple is all that loyal. Let's see what happens when AMD closes up the single core performance gap.
It's not about performance. It's about ability to guarantee production. Apple puts out a line of computers and needs a sure source for so many millions chips. AMD won't guarantee they can supply that many in a year, and Intel will.
Try selling CPUs without built in back doors. (Score:4, Informative)
Intel has Management Engine - a total-control backdoor that's already been broken.
AMD has ASP/PSP. It's claimed to be less of an issue. But as long as it's closed we can't audit it and thus must assume that it IS an issue.
A plague on both their houses.
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What sucks is they have us by the nuts, There is not a whole lot of option if you need performance. Your best bet is to destroy any network chip on the motherboard and go at that point. making it so it cant be connected to a network is really your only option if you need to be sure.
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Destruction is overkill. Just don't use the sucker. That doesn't really guarantee that nothing nefarious is happening, though. The CPU controls the IOMMU and whatever management CPU they hid in the CPU controls the CPU...
Disappointing. Press conference link. (Score:1)
Here is the link to AMD's press conference. https://youtu.be/ZKlrSOjzKsw
The presenter is spot on about the age of laptops these days. My laptop is a Dell XPS 17 with a i7-2630M in it. 16GB RAM. It is 7 years old. I retired it 2 years ago for a Gigabyte Brix with a i7-5775R, but still use it from time to time just because I need a mobile computing platform.
I use my laptop for code development. My XPS17 was a desktop replacement, as is the Brix. My computing platform needs to be mobile.
I think AMD has misse