Did Gates Fib About H1-B Salaries? 345
netbuzz writes "While in Washington last year lobbying for higher H1-B visa limits, Bill Gates told David Broder of the Washington Post that Microsoft starts such workers at about $100,000. An analysis by one offshoring critic suggests that's not true. If his analysis is correct, it would undermine part of the case for lifting H1-B ceilings.
Say It Ain't So, Bill! (Score:2, Interesting)
Bill Gates: computer scientist, marketer, business man, philanthropist
Who would have thought the term Renaissance Man [wikipedia.org] could have such negative connotations?
Re:Say It Ain't So, Bill! (Score:5, Funny)
Now I wonder about Vista - will it really rock my world? Is it really more secure than Linux? Now I'm not so sure Microsoft was telling the truth about that either.
Re:Say It Ain't So, Bill! (Score:4, Funny)
If by 'rock' you mean a short form of 'rock and roll' which was a euphamism for sex, then yeah, you're f**ked
Re:Say It Ain't So, Bill! (Score:5, Funny)
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<insert well-known HomelessinLaJolla typical political spiel here>
Even I am beginning to grow weary of reading about the thousands of different ways in which the population is being controlled by one single issue: debt.
What we need is a really messy revolution. Automobiles can be restored from scratch. I can build Linux from scratch [linuxfromscratch.org] since about version 2.2. I've dissected and analyzed the inner working of world politics for six or seven
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Well, I've been volunteering myself for the post of 'Benevolent Dictator'...a post to last about 2 years, in which I can start by throwing out all current members of both houses of congress...and start anew...and changing some laws to avoid letting money become the horrible necessity it is now to run....and to fix a few other things.
I'd step down shortly after that...and let things go on their own again. However, no one has taken me up on th
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My solution which is unworkable, inhuman, incompatible with a free society, and unlikely to make things great although I'm convinced it would make things better is:
Take every of
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1. You like money, or are a controlling asshole
2. Your father is a lawyer (and a controlling asshole)
3. You're really smart and think you can use the law to make a difference in the world. Oh by the way, you could dedicate your whole life to a single cause and maybe get the wheels turning. Then some guy with a bomb strapped to his chest will cause a bigger change overnight.
T
Re:Say It Ain't So, Bill! (Score:5, Funny)
compuglobalmegahypernet (Score:4, Funny)
Vista Help Forum [vistahelpforum.com]
Re:compuglobalmegahypernet (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:compuglobalmegahypernet (Score:4, Funny)
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Let's be fair, here: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Let's be fair, here: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Let's be fair, here: (Score:5, Funny)
Well duh (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Well duh (Score:5, Informative)
Gates may not have the exact salary numbers (I'd say the average today is more like $90k base, definitely > $100k w/ bonus). The alternative (which is happening as well) is to hire the employees in their home countries and pay them 1/3 as much and not have that money returned to the local US economy.
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If that is one of the reasons, then very well could mean that non H1-Bs are finding plenty of work that you're offering for well above the price that you want for it.
Re:Well duh (Score:4, Insightful)
If that's the issue- and I hate to sound like a broken record, but I've posted this in EVERY freakin' H-1b story on slashdot- why not take UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE, and then pay for their traing so that they can fill the jobs that are available? Wouldn't that be cheaper than getting people from half a world away?
Re:Well duh (Score:5, Insightful)
So instead of looking for the best talent globally, a company should *pay* for a worker who may not have the inclination or drive to master his profession?
I'm no Republican, but if that's not the road to a stagnant country where entitlements are expected then I don't know what is.
My girlfriend is on an h1b for architecture; she's from Japan. She's also the hardest, most driven worker her company has, and they offered her ridiculous amounts of money (for architecture) during her review because she's such an asset. They didn't hire her because she's cheaper, they hired her because she's good.
I can't think of a faster way to torpedo the American character than the parent's idea.
Re:Well duh (Score:4, Insightful)
Most job descriptions for ANY tech company are overly specific, requiring experience with particular technologies that a reasonably skilled programmer can learn in a few weeks at most. And that's what HR departments use when they're screening resumes. Is it any wonder that they can't find the workers they want?
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Productivity doesn't scale linearly with experience.
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You have me completely baffled here. About the only natural born talents would be with regard to what a person can physically do...athletes and the like. I doubt MS is trying to hire a lot of H1-B's for the company softball team...especially not at $100K.
I 'almost' sounds like you're somehow trying to imply that intellect is a natural talent and that it is more abundant in a race being importe
Re:Well duh (Score:4, Insightful)
The only thing in computer programming that is NOT a trainable skill is the ability to sit in front of a screen solving problems instead of having constant human contact. I would think the prevalence of video games in the United States would have produced plenty of "inborn talent" in that arena by now.
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Have you tried offering 4-year scholarships to the winners of high science fairs? Seems to me that would be a heck of a lot more reliable than social networks, where other managers lie to you to o
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It's who they sent to campus- from that moment on I have not believed that Microsoft wants people who can make up their own algorithims.
Where are all of these talented people then?
The majority of them retrained to drive trucks after being evicted out of their homes in the
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Re:Well duh (Score:5, Insightful)
Supply and demand says that you are just simply not offering enough to make it worth someone's while. Offer the right amount and you will have absolutely no problem finding the people locally. All you are doing here is increasing the supply to dilute the value of the job. I can't blame you for wanting to do so, but it would be nice if you would least acknowledge the fact instead of trying to pass the blame on to the workers who you aren't willing to compensate.
Re:Well duh (Score:5, Insightful)
There's no such thing as "not enough qualified people". There's only "not enough qualified people for the amount we wish to pay." If you raised what you offered, you get the people you ned. If you competitors did the same, more people would enter/stay in the profession.
But only if you discount offshoring...
Once you factor offshoring into the mix, the question becomes whether the jobs move overseas until the US salaries drop to the overseas salaries plus transaction costs.
So -- the CEOs are right: we do need and H1B program. But not for the reasons they state. Politically, they can't say "give us this program or we'll move our jobs to India," politically it would be seen as blackmail. Tariffs and taxes would be up overnight.
This is not just an academic distinction. The rationale you have determines the kind of program you create. If you want to depress salaries, you have a program like what we have now. Invite 'em over for a few years, then kick them out of the country when they've achieved seniority, creating knowledge transfer to places with lower salaries ripe for offshoring.
If you want to prevent jobs going overseas, you invite people over here and encourage them to stay as long as they want; you just don't let in more new inexperienced workers and kick the experienced ones out.
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Re:Well duh (Score:5, Funny)
The tallest midget in the circus is still a midget.
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Valid point, but not accurate in my case. I did lo
I'm a former Microsoft employee (Score:5, Informative)
Now the thing is, both US college grad and experienced H1-B will be at the same starting level and will be paid the same wage. This DOES NOT mean they'll be doing the same job. There's a shortage of experienced folks, so the guy with experience will be doing things that require experience, when college grad will be doing something else. H1-B is therefore paid below the market wage for what he's doing (but not for his level). This, coupled with slower promotion rate puts him at a huge disadvantage. Given that promotion velocity is capped no matter how hard you bust your ass, you may never reach higher levels because you started lower and were promoted slower.
This is fully within the constraints of law, and not everyone ends up like this. I was in this situation and so were many of my H1-B coworkers.
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While those employees where good, they were not better
skilled than the American programmers on staff. Not
worse, but not better.
Re:Well duh (Score:4, Informative)
While those employees where good, they were not better skilled than the American programmers on staff. Not worse, but not better."
I have to agree. I find their skills, and possibly this is due to the social environment they are raised in over there, are largely ok if you give them rote coding to do, with very explicit requirements and instructions.
They just did not seem to do as well, on brainstorming, and being creative as the US citizens. And in many of the projects I've worked on...well, well set requirments and the like are hard to find. Most jobs I've been on, have been development, and you had to often make it up as you went due to deadlines and changing customer requests. I'm sure many of you out there have run into that scenario.
Don't get me wrong...this isn't every H1-B type I've worked with, but, I have seen this as a very strong general trend in my experience working with this type worker.
I think many an outsourcer has seen this come up as a problem when shipping things over to India...and then having to deal with it over phone/email. At least if you have a worker like this in your office, it makes communication a bit easier...but, even so, time explaining is time wasted. Something I've seen managers have to consider after they ran into this type of situation...
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I can't say I've ever had problems working with foreign-born colleagues. Or at least no worse than somebody born down the road. In fact I'd rather deal with somebody more worldly. Maybe your particular social background means that you haven't been able to adapt sufficiently to communicate well enough to successfully brainstorm with "them". Somebody from even as close culturally as Canada or the UK is going to take some time t
Bill G is just a parrot (Score:4, Insightful)
He meets politicians and tells them whatever his acolytes ask him to tell them. He would go to India and tell exactly the opposite story. Go look at Indian websites oooohing aaahhing his compliments and how much he is going to invest in India and how important R&D done in India is to Microsoft.
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Tom
Re:Bill G is just a parrot (Score:5, Insightful)
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I beg to differ:
"I know what I want to do," [Warren Buffet] said, "and it makes sense to get going." On that spring day his plan was uncertain in some of its details; today it is essentially complete. And it is typical Buffett: rational, original, breaking the mold of how extremely rich people donate money.
Buffett has pledged to gradually give 85% of his Berkshire stock to five foun
Bill's goals (Score:3, Interesting)
If I had Bill's money, I'd be funding a mission to Mars, building supercolliders, or something like that that would actually go down in history. Bill, on the other hand... he built himself a big house, lent money to people, and then gave the interest they paid back to charity; plus he made a few tiny (1% of net worth scale) donations himsel
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You mean he's not doing that now???
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Think about your youth when you had the summer off, unstructured, went where your bike would take you. Replace bike with car/private jet and you get the idea.
I'd be off doing endlessly long trips, seeing every nook and cranny of the planet. Screw being in one location, tied to an office, saying things I don't really believe...
Tom
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Instead of just blinding assuming whatever MSFT does is gold.
Maybe embrace and not kill some useful public open standards?
Tom
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I'm sure that if he gracefully bowed out and said "fuck you world I'm rich biatch!" they'd keep handing fist over fist of cash to MSFT just like they ar e now.
Tom
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How does Bill Gates change a light bulb? He doesn't. He just declares darkness the new in
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He could easily cash out a few million a YEAR and still live a life devoid of the 9-5 office and heartless corporate shilling.
Tom
market rates change (Score:5, Interesting)
From another perspective, Gates is saying that current market rates are ~100k. This is about right for mid-level software engineers with 2-4 years of experience, in that area.
It's not the same as looking at H1-B applications and trying to figure current rates, as they will reflect market conditions from 1-4 years ago (depending on when the H1-B process started for that individual).
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That is illegal. An H1B MUST be paid the market rate. No doing so is the same as hiring an illegal worker.
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I've seen large corporations intentionally violate labor laws on a regular basis. Many corporate executives consider them to be mere suggestions, that only need to be obeyed when the corporation is presented with a serious threat of legal action.
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So what if it is illegal? There is zero money in the federal budget for enforcement, busting a company for underpaying H1-B's is nearly impossible the way the system is set up. Everybody involved knows this, especially the people in each company that are in charge of paying the H1-B's.
Re:market rates change (Score:4, Informative)
Re:market rates change (Score:4, Insightful)
Is it the mid-90s again? That's the only possibility if someone is making that much with only 2-4 years experience. And 100k+, even in an expensive city as Seattle, is still awesome money.
The simple fact is that I've know many people, some very qualified and some not so much, who applied to MS and didn't get so much as a second look. I've known 1 person who's been hired, and he was very young (just turned 22 at the time) and very arrogant.
I think if you want to work for MS you need to be young, show that all you care about is working long hours at the expense of your social life, and be an asshole. They like assholes who know it all. That's why there's a lot of shit that get spewed from Redmond. If you're a foreigner it's even better because they can pay you more than you'd get in your own country but less than a resident and you'll probably work very long hours because you're just happy to be making 'the big bucks'!
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> years experience. And 100k+, even in an expensive city as Seattle, is still awesome money.
Nope, it's 2007, 8 years later, with 8 years of inflation behind it. $100k/year is no longer special. At the same time, the 'Net is hot again, and people are hiring all over, which adds to wage hikes.
Come on boys and girls, it's time to find a new job (if you're mobile, and not an H1-B that is)!
Age discriminatio
Yeah, its a real sweat shop...... (Score:2)
Microsoft's benefits and freebies for employees are probably the best in the industry, if not ANY industry. What you said about age could not be more false, especially in the programming ranks. Sure, there are lots of kids, but Microsoft is smart enough to know that kids need supervision.
Just because nobody in your circle made the cut doesnt mean a thing. I suggest your 'friends' just get a bit smarter, quicker, whatever, and try again.
The key to getting a job at Microsoft is not to j
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if that's the attitude you bring to the interview, you won't have to worry about being offered the job---even if it came with the extra zero attached to it.
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When a company is choosing to hire a developer out of tens of thousands of applicants PER MONTH, you think they might get someone good?
You are wrong, deal with it.
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Incidentally, thanks for crushing my current pride and sense of satisfaction
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Only if he's putting in 70-80 hours per week!
I work in one of the highest-salaried markets in the US, and nobody I know in the tech sector is making six figures unless they're in management, have 10+ years of experience relevant to the position, or both. I doubt the situation is much different anywhere else.
Tangentially related but (Score:3, Insightful)
Lying with statistics (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, TFA cites green card applications, not green card grants.
It also neglects performance bonuses (Score:2)
Maybe he was misquoted? (Score:4, Insightful)
But, whats the alternative? (Score:2, Insightful)
1. No H1-B, means higher costs for US Companies
2. US Companies compete locally (inside US), and globally with Global Companies
3. So US Companies' have a higher cost of product development or software services, compared to those from outside (which employ cheaper labor)
4.
5.
6. Profit! (BUT HOW??!!)
An alternative is to ship most of the development or services lifecycle outside, so that H1-Bs are not needed
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> Say, H1-Bs are required for cutting costs; and not due to lack of talent in the US. Even then...
> 1. No H1-B, means higher costs for US Companies
This is only true under a small group of circumstances.
> 2. US Companies compete locally (inside US), and globally with Global Companies
> 3. So US Companies' have a higher cost of product development or software services, compared to
> those >from outside (which empl
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He's probably right... (Score:3, Insightful)
When he says $100K, he's probably thinking salary+ health care + 401K + taxes. When you add that up on an average individual employee, you get to $100K pretty easily.
The difference is that when we read $100K, we assume salary only. I know lots of people working at MSFT, none of whom are making that much even after 5+ years there. Unless they are paying their H1-B's more, he's either thinking in terms of total compensation package or...he's just plain lying.
Honestly though, he may not actually know -- why would he care about an operational detail like that at this point in his career?
A more likely explanation.... (Score:4, Insightful)
The supply agency charges a company like Microsoft an hourly rate equivalent of $100,000
It happens to be true..... (Score:5, Interesting)
So, as hard as it might be for some of you to stomach, Gates is telling the truth. These are not Janitors Microsoft is hiring, but highly trained, highly sought after individuals, regardless of country of origin.
Deal with it.
Lashing out? (Score:2)
It supports..... (Score:2, Funny)
I guess it depends on your definition of "about" (Score:2, Insightful)
I am not defending Bill Gates, that's just wrong...ewwwww. But, did he state that ALL H-1B's start at about $100k? If some start in a $90k - $100k range, some start in the $80k to $90k range, and the rest are below $80k is it a lie to say they start at about $100k? I dunno. I'm back to, "It depends on your definition of 'about'."
$100,000 doesn't matter (Score:2, Informative)
Compared to the cost of living and worker productivity, workers in the US have not benefited from
Gates's Response (Score:4, Funny)
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good policy, wrong reason (Score:2)
If they can't come to the US on H1-B visas, companies like Microsoft will simply grow their overseas research labs further. That way, the US loses the talent, loses the tax revenue, and US workers will have to compete against people paid even less. So, capping H1-B visas will cause high-tech companies to move elsewh
former H1B here... (Score:5, Insightful)
There is also another law that states that no more than 15% of your workforce can be H1-B based. This law is meant to protect U.S. citizens from being displaced by H1-B's and to assure that only really critical roles can be filled with H1-B workers. No one is going to hire an HR person on an H-1B (well unless they are super critical in an HR-kind of way to the company).
Another noteworthy thing to mention is, prevailing wage != FMV (fair market value) wage, at least in my experience. This difference between the two may amount to _some_ savings, but I doubt it is as significant as, let's say, hiring a foreign Indian worker in India at 1/2 or less the salary.
Speaking of hiring offshore - this may or may not prove to be a value added proposition - if you have some seriously senior, super-technical project managers who can divvy up a project into many well-defined/well-bounded specific tasks (e.g. write code for login/logout procedures for a webapp based on Tomcat, using JAAS as the authentication/mechanism, task #2, integrate JAAS with Active Directory on Windows Server, etc.), delegating these tasks to off-shore people, it could work. But this only works in a mature environment like Microsoft probably. It could work in smaller companies too, but it's much riskier, and it could inhibit the company's growth.
Offshoring is overrated. Hiring local, U.S. talent as well as H1B is much better value. Well, that's my opinion anyway, and I'm sticking to it
MS doesn't dire dumbasses, like it or not (Score:2)
OK I read TFA (Score:2)
Or they are hiring junior people.
Or maybe they ARE hiring dumbasses.
With a population of 298 million (Score:2)
misreading or misrepresenting (Score:2)
H1-B person here.. (Score:3, Informative)
My advice to unemployed US programmers: quit whining. If you aren't getting these jobs, you aren't qualified for them. Get your qualifications, get the experience, and compete with the best. It's what I had to do, and after watching the H1-B flamewar for the last five years, I still don't see why Americans think the global economy-- yes, it's global, accept it-- should go any easier on them than anyone else.
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Want to step up and try and get one of these jobs? Or just whinge on Slashdot?
Gates and Salaries (Score:3, Informative)
I work for Microsoft on an H-1B (Score:4, Informative)
While the base salary isn't breaking $100k a lot of the time, Microsoft gives everyone (H-1B or otherwise) a bucketload of benefits that would easily push the cost to MS well over $100k.
Add into the mix the fact that Microsoft has to pay shiteloads of money for legal services, filing fees, premium processing, etc. just to keep us in the country, and you realize that it costs MS a decent amount more to keep H-1Bs in the country. Plus, the stupid Americans like to randomly tear up your visas from time to time if you come from a "suspicious" country, and let me tell you, those are expensive battles.
Oh my God (Score:2)
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You are so in for a surprise when you find out what people around you are earning. I don't mean this as humor, I'm entirely serious. Try this as an exercise: go round your neighborhood and estimate the cost of property. Now compute the price of a mortgage on those houses. Add in property tax. Now compute what salary you'd need to be able to afford those houses (and possibly maintain a family, two cars etc.). See what I mean?
WTF are you talking about?
Most houses in a neighborhood are similar in price (generalization, I know), so I think the GP would *already* know how much it costs to live in a particular neighborhood, because he already does! Duh. The things that would be purchased by a household with more disposible income are INSIDE the house, where you can't see them.
And if he doesn't know how much he needs to make to live in a house, then chances are he already defaulted on his mortgage...
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In my immediate neighbourhood (a couple of blocks in each direction) prices vary from $600,000 to about $2,000,000 so this exercise works for me. (At least according to zillow [zillow.com].)
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I just moved away from Northern Virginia, where prices are also totally through the roof, and there were certainly multi-income, not-related-by-blood-or-marriage homes there.
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You could be on WELFARE and still make 10x as much as an unemployable American in the US. Killer is right.
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"I could'a been a contender."
Talent as you define it isn't necessarily talent as Microsoft or Google defines it. Talent alone doesn't make you employable. Not everyone gets a shot at the brass ring.