French Doctors to Perform Zero-Gravity Surgery 222
STFS writes "NewScientistSpace has a story about a team of French doctors who will attempt the worlds first zero-gravity operation on a human aboard an Airbus A300 dubbed "Zero-G". The patient, according to forbes.com, was chosen because of his experience with 'dramatic gravitational shifts' as an avid bungee-jumper. The operation will serve as a test for performing surgery in space."
If thats like the Vomit Comet... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:If thats like the Vomit Comet... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:If thats like the Vomit Comet... (Score:4, Funny)
WARNING (Score:5, Funny)
1) Insert a less complicated insult about the French, perhaps belittling their manliness?
2) Boringly clarify your remark with a link to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maginot_Line)?
3) EXCITINGLY clarify your remark with a link to Uncyclopedia (http://www.uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Maginot_Line)?
4) Ignore?
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Indeed. Most people here can't spell Manigot.
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Of course you can do war bad[ly] or well. You can kill hundreds of thousands of enemy soldiers and civilians, lose hundreds of thousands of your own, and win. Or you can kill hundreds of thousands of enemy soldiers and civilians, lose hundreds of thousands of your own, and lose. War may never be worth the cost (a possibility, not an assertion), but once engaged some outcomes are worse than others.
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This is a very silly explanation.
The French military of the time, just like every other in the world was stuck in a mindset of locked positions with absolutely no concept of a fluid, fast moving front and mobile units. The German army of the time reinvented it for modern warfare (dubbing it Blitzkrieg) and absolutely no other army in the world could stand before it.
The northern section of the border wasn't heavily defended be
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Even in space, it is not actually 'weightless', there is still the gravity that holds the celestial bodies in orbit. While the plane may make it more like .01 G instead of .000001 G, it's not as if it's entirely a different thing from being in space (microgravity is the term).
It's not the presence of gravity that matters, it's freefall that matters. When a body is falling freely under only the influence of gravity, it sees no gravitational force (period!) in its own reference frame. Even if the gravitat
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Re:If thats like the Vomit Comet... (Score:4, Funny)
rj
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Let's see...points for speed...points for style...nope, nothing here about survivability. Of course if the patient lives through the end of the surgery, and dies two days later on the ward, his death is obviously the nurses' fault. He was alive until the nurses got ahold of him.
Re:If thats like the Vomit Comet... (Score:5, Funny)
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Don't we all keep a few dozens of spare organs in the freezer?
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Re:If thats like the Vomit Comet... (Score:5, Informative)
From the article
1) It is ESA and not NASA
2) They are doing the operation in 20 second increments
3) There will be 30 such spots when the actual operation is done
4) Whole flight will be 3 hours
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Ban all research!
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Avid bungee-jumper (Score:5, Funny)
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No. When you are free-falling, you are experiencing acceleration due to gravity of 9.81(ish*) m/s^2. What isn't experienced is the upwards force keeping you stationary on the ground. There's a (massive) difference.
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It's like saying there actually isn't such a thing as centrifugal force. You may be technically right in that it is a result of inertia and that there is no
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It's not semantic crap though. The GP seemed to be saying that while you fall, you are in zero gravity, which is not the case. This is due to the context in which the comment was made, the OP saying that gravity is constant the whole time.
Had he said something like "well, that's true, but it *feels* like it isn't" we wouldn't be having this pointless discussion. Some of us are physics nerds at heart
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Because it's (more or less) exactly balanced by the centripetal acceleration of the earth's orbital motion. That doesn't change the fact that there is an attractive force of gravity acting so as to pull the Earth and the Sun together; it may not feel like it, but I wasn't talking about how it feels.
If it makes you feel better, pretend I said "over the course of the bungee jump the differences in the force due to gravity acting on the jumper are vanish
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No, it's not. The centripetal force is the force of gravity between the earth and the sun. It's not "balanced" by it. The grandparent poster was right on this one: you don't feel the force of the sun's gravity because you, the earth, and everything on it are all in free fall around the sun, just like when astronauts are orbiting the earth.
This is, incidentally, one of the toughest things to teach
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No. When you are free-falling, you are experiencing acceleration due to gravity of 9.81(ish*) m/s^2. What isn't experienced is the upwards force keeping you stationary on the ground. There's a (massive) difference.
Wrong. Freefall is identical to zero gravity. Einstein says so. [wikipedia.org]Re:Avid bungee-jumper (Score:5, Funny)
Oh yeah. That's exactly when I want to have someone lean over me with a scalpel.
KFG
What kind of surgery? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What kind of surgery? (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, it's not. At first.
It's going to be quick, bloodless and easy! (Score:2)
Actually a vasectomy wouldn't be a bad choice.
I've had that done. (Score:5, Informative)
Think of it as "cancer of the fat" - except benign. You get stiff fatty lumps (maybe one, maybe a scattering, maybe like a bunch of grapes). They're like regular fat with some kind of other tissue in them that makes them hard.
It's really annoying if it's above a muscle or some other easily hurt tissue: It's like a rock embedded in the fat that is SUPPOSED to be cushioning the tissue, so lying on it bruises the tissue instead.
They never go malignant so doctors will leave them in unless they're bruising something underneath or causing a disfiguring bump. They're near the surface of the skin so they're easy to cut out - usually by a dermatologist.
Sounds like the perfect test operation. Not a big deal if they don't get it all, near the surface so you don't have to cut through vital stuff or clamp stuff out of the way to get to it, etc. Easy to tell how well the op went. Much less opportunity for screwups than just about any other surgery.
Err.. Lipomas can become malignant (cancerous) (Score:5, Informative)
Dermatologist generally don't do cancer operations - they take out skin lesions a bit at a time untill they hit healthy tissue. If something is deep to the skin - i.e. a lipoma, it should be removed by a surgeon (general, or orthopaedic) that specialises in oncology. The only real way to determine if they are benign is to examine it pathologically. Generally the benign ones tend to be soft,
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Current recommendations (Score:2)
Dempsey Springfeild (at Colombbia) has recommended that small subcutaneous lipomas can be followed clinically, a MRI is recommended for the larger ones,that are deep to the fascia - so no we don't do MRIs for little s
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Hey, when it's your turn to be God, You can tell Your chosen people which parts come off and which parts stay on. Until then, shut up and hold still; this won't hurt a bit.
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Even for those among you who think there's a god, this is spectacularly stupid. By your reasoning, not only is plastic surgery out, but so are makeup, hair coloring, sunscreen, and for that matter clothing.
It's not too hard to read your statement as disallowing medicine as well.
Sheesh.
And once again. (Score:4, Funny)
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zero-g in the atmosphere. (Score:3)
Definitely tiring... (Score:5, Informative)
As well as the challenge of working in zero gravity, the surgical team will have to halt their work each time the plane pulls out and gravity resumes."
22 seconds multiplied by 30 is 660 seconds, that is only 11 minutes of surgery for 3 hours. I wonder if that tumor could be removed during this 3 hour session.
(I'm getting dizzy already, I'm not a rollercoaster type of person)
Animals first? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Animals first? (Score:5, Informative)
"Martin's team laid the groundwork for Wednesday's operation in October 2003, with an operation on a 0.5 millimetre-wide (.01 inch) rat tail's artery."
Re:Animals first? (Score:5, Funny)
And this is why space-probes are lost.
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If no procedure was ever done before it was proven safe, then no procedure would ever be proven safe, and medicine would grind to a halt.
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Re:Animals first? (Score:5, Interesting)
It has been done on animals. I worked with a NASA surgical research group for years and one of the many projects we did was surgical simulation (both computer with haptic feedback and with traditional box simulators) in microgravity. Other groups did surgical procedures on animals in microgravity. We've flown every possible piece of the puzzle, many times. This is the logical next step, and yes it is experimental, but that's what researchers do.
There are many things that could go wrong, and no doubt they'll tell the pilot to level the plane if that happens. Being in control of the gravity makes it a lot safer than trying it for the first time in an emergency aboard the space station. Sooner or later this has to be done -- I admit when I first heard this story on the news, I was hoping it was my old group doing it.
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I think the "who knows" questions are the ENTIRE reason they are doing this.
If your concerns for the patient are so strong, did you not consider they can just ask the pilot to level the plane out, and carry out surgery as normal - it would take all of ten seconds or so.
Good Grief! (Score:5, Funny)
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We get paid for bombing people? That would explain a lot about US foreign policy.
I can imagine after the surgery... (Score:5, Funny)
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Nurse, help! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Nurse, help! (Score:4, Insightful)
Probably constant dabbing with sponges or gauze would be useful in stopping the blood from flying away...but keep in mind...the surface tension of blood will keep it sticky to the site of incision, the instruments, and to their gloves. That is of course assuming they don't cut a high pressure spurting artery...then all bets are off. Point is, I don't think this minor surgery will dig that deep.
Having spent a lot of time in microgravity, my main concern would be in keeping the area sterile. Dust, hair, and everything else floats around a lot better in microgravity...and keeping particulate matter out of the incision site is going to be a task. It's hard enough to keep the planes clean of the big dirt from your shoes...it doesn't take much to spread microscopic contaminants
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I wonder? (Score:5, Funny)
Like I did?
I'll get my coat.
ISS (Score:2, Interesting)
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Re:ISS (Score:4, Interesting)
TFA mentions an accident during a low spaceflight. Well, read Baxter's "Titan" for example. But if you are not suicidal enough for that, it might be enough to note that all space crews are trained in medicine; often one crewmember is a doctor, and everyone else is good enough to help.
Another issue is that you can't compare 30-second drops and 9-minute climbs, with gravity swinging from 0 to 2G, and a quiet, stable zero gravity of a spacecraft. Who can do *anything* well in a Vomit Comet? This stunt has no value.
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We have run many surgical simulation missions onboard the KC-135, and there's plenty of research value. What happens on the ISS is very conservative and small scale, because it's so darn expensive to fly a pound of material up there.
You just don't do anything during the 2g period (which only lasts about 45 seconds). You're right, it isn't exactly the same as space, but it's also not as dangerous or as expensive. We try things out first on
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At
...And after the return to gravity? (Score:3, Interesting)
I seem to remember that in the development of the X-ray a lot of people were treated for depression of the organs, or some such illness, which later turned out to be something that was caused by the machines taking the photographs, and only caused when the photographs were being taken in the first place. Peoples' organs weren't actually in the wrong place, they were being displaced by the heavy equipment, until the equipment went away again...
I can imagine a situation where they do the operation, then land, and find that when the body of the patient settles, the stitches pull out or the organs get twisted around and he has worse problems than he would have had if they'd stayed in a relatively constant gravitational pull.
Let alone the increases and decreases of gravity during the operation. "catch that kidney as it goes past, will you nurse? Oh, nevermind, it will change direction and return to it's rightful place in 5 more seconds..." Wow. It would be like a Monty Python sketch...
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Actually, it wasn't the machines causing it. It was because the
Seems worse this way than doing it in orbit... (Score:3, Interesting)
While I'm sure they have a fancy plan for blood containment (small incisions and tubes for tool insertion), a slip-up at the wrong time could create some interesting situations (like a stream of small, bloody spheres all over the place). Another issue are the various other fluids to contend with, such as stomach acid, anal leakage and urine. Unless they plan to completely block off every hole on the guy (catheter, stomach pump, intibation tubes, ass plug/vacuum, etc...), this could get messy pretty quick.
Aside from that, what ever became of ideas like one of those large rotating room to create pseudo-gravity using constant angular velocity?
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I'd think
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Okay, I remembered that from way back, and on further checking there are a couple of separate related problem: tidal forces are one, and the other are coriolis forces, which are a lot easier to find numbers for the levels which cause concern. For the latter, to avoid dizzyness, nausea, and disorientation, the spin has to be lower than about 2 rpm (I can't find any numbers for what levels of tidal force are a concern, thou
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LOL, I don't think this is the kind of flight you're thinking of
But seriously, this is not the first time any of these problems have been dealt with in microgravity. We've flown sutures and needles and liquids and all this other stuff before. The gound crew would not be taking these guys up if they couldn't explin what mechanisms were in place to prevent it all from getting out. I can't really tell from the stories circulating now, but
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That one is only useful to create higher gravity, not microgravity.
Rotating wheels are useful to simulate gravity where there is none (i.e. on large space stations), but not the other way round.
So what? (Score:3, Funny)
Too far... (Score:2)
Pity the poor intern... (Score:2)
It's not the fall that kills you... (Score:2)
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Dr. McCoy, I can't change the laws of Physics! (Score:2)
Finally a cure for fatty tumours in bungee jumpers (Score:2)
Can we get approval for "off-label" use?
Re:How totally unethical (Score:4, Insightful)
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And to compare it to Nazi's is stupid.
May I suggest you read more about this story here [forbes.com]
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I don't really see the risk. He'll probably be in less danger, as the operation isn't performed in a hospital, so no need to be worried of getting an infection resistant to antibiotics from a hospital strain of bacteria. I think
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I mean... by your standards, we wouldn't have organ transplants, modern surgery, anaesthetics, any of the wonderdrugs we now consider must-haves, antibiotics, and a whole slew of other things that had to be tried on somebody first. How many lives ha
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With a continuously occupied space facility, private ventures planning to establish "space hotels", and with plans (mentioned in TFA) to establish a permanently inhabited moon base in the next few decades, possibly followed by manned missions to Mars which will take a very long time in transit, yes, there is a reasonably predictable, not too distant future need to have techniques available to perform surgeries in low and zero gravity.
Conducting a fairly low risk
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There will be. Most space agencies figure it's a good idea to figure out how to do it now, rather than in the 24 hours someone has to survive.
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