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Warner to Sell Music on DVD 365

Posted by Zonk from the lining-up-for-it-i'm-sure dept.
Carl Bialik from WSJ writes "Warner Music is planning an aggressive attempt to replace the CD by pushing consumers to buy their music on specially outfitted DVDs, the Wall Street Journal reports. It's music to the ears of some struggling retailers who seek a new physical product to re-capture some of the online (and file-sharing) market. 'As a retailer I'm going to be holding on desperately for any compelling physical product,' said Eric Levin, who owns two independent stores called Criminal Records in the Atlanta area. 'So the introduction of a new format...is cause for excitement.' More from the article: 'But there are some stumbling blocks that may discourage consumers from embracing DVD albums. The new discs would not play on normal CD players, meaning consumers could not simply pop their new discs into their car stereos or other players. And users would not be able to copy the main audio mix onto their computers. On the proposed DVD album, the main audio mix is to be protected by the same software that already protects the content on normal DVDs.'"
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Warner to Sell Music on DVD More

Warner to Sell Music on DVD

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  • DRM yadda yadda... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by duerra ( 684053 ) * on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:19AM (#15846189) Homepage
    Well now, that doesn't sound like too compelling of a physical product at all, now does it?

    For those that didn't RTFA, supposedly the DVD would contain pre-ripped, lower quality versions of the song on the disc, but not actually allow you to rip the high quality versions of the song to your computer. Well, not legally, anyway.... And it doesn't say what the format of those pre-ripped songs are, either, though it could very easily be assumed that they are DRM'd as well. If they are, it probably wouldn't be iPod compatible, either, so honestly now - remind me again what the point is in them wasting money on a product that's doomed from the start?

    • Re:DRM yadda yadda... (Score:5, Informative)

      by badasscat ( 563442 ) <basscadet75@NOspAm.yahoo.com> on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:24AM (#15846220)
      And it doesn't say what the format of those pre-ripped songs are, either, though it could very easily be assumed that they are DRM'd as well. If they are, it probably wouldn't be iPod compatible, either

      Well, you say you read TFA, but I don't see much evidence of it:

      "People familiar with the situation say Warner is close to a deal with Apple Computer Inc. that would make the digital tracks essentially identical to those the computer company sells through its iTunes Music Store service -- something that has proved elusive for others in the music industry, since Apple has been unwilling to license its proprietary copy-protection software to outsiders. People briefed on the talks said a likely solution would involve Apple creating the digital tracks and Warner putting them on DVDs."

      Makes sense to me.

      • Re:DRM yadda yadda... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Valthan ( 977851 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:39AM (#15846354)
        But... I have a creative... I hate the iPod... I can't put iMusic on my Creative, so that would totally be a shit kicker to all us non iPod users. And contrary to popular belief there are quite a large population of us.

        • Re:DRM yadda yadda... (Score:5, Funny)

          by Ohreally_factor ( 593551 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:50AM (#15846438) Journal
          I don't care how fat both of you are. It's just misleading to call yourselves a "large population".

          Joke! Don't kill me! Please!

        • Re:DRM yadda yadda... (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Yvan256 ( 722131 )

          And contrary to popular belief there are quite a large population of us.

          There may be a large population of non-iPod users, but last time I checked that was still only about 15%.

          There's quite a lot of Mac users too, but we're still only 5% of the market. So, "Welcome to my world". Except that music can easily be shifted from one format to another, unlike software.

          As for Apple putting DRM'ed AAC files onto a DVD-ROM portion of the DVD... How will they tie the DRM to the user? I thought the DRM was added serve

      • Re:DRM yadda yadda... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by andrewman327 ( 635952 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:39AM (#15846359) Homepage Journal
        Regardless of the specifics, I do not like this at all. I play CDs in the car and in my stereo in my bedroom. What good are disks that do not play in either place? If I want music on a DVD, I will buy a video of a live show. The production quality on some of those is amazing. I fail to see what niche this is filling.

        • Re:DRM yadda yadda... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by plover ( 150551 ) * on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:50AM (#15846437) Homepage Journal
          I fail to see what niche this is filling.
          The "RIAA-members-aren't-quite-making-trailer trucks-full-of-money-anymore" niche, of course.

          We should actually see this with a positive spin. We've been shouting for years that they've been doing all the wrong things to try to make money off of us. So now they're trying different things.

          That means they've been listening to us! Sure, they don't quite get the whole "DRM is a losing battle" thing. That may eventually pass, just like it did for games on copy-protected 5-1/4" floppies. Or it may end up winning via Treacherous Computing. That's for the future to decide.

          Anyway, the best way to fight this latest CRAP is the same as it's been all along: buy unDRM'd CDs; and if you accidentally end up with a DRM disc, return it to the place of purchase as defective. Support the artists you like in the format you like.

      • what's the point of that? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by artifex2004 ( 766107 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @11:06AM (#15846547) Journal
        People briefed on the talks said a likely solution would involve Apple creating the digital tracks and Warner putting them on DVDs.


        You can make unprotected AACs right now. And if they make protected AACs (Apple's exclusive), they're going to have to use a single set of keys, which will be pointless anyhow, because they'll have to give the keys out to anyone who buys the DVD. And if you have the key to one, you'll probably have the key to all of them. So why bother? Just use MP3s, which most consumers understand, now.

        • Maybe they'll be in a different protected AAC format, which iTunes will decrypt and generate an iPod-compatible AAC track serialized to your iTunes/iPod authorization keys. After all, IIRC that's pretty much what they do now, with your local copy of iTunes doing the final encryption. Of course what's to stop people from loaning out the disc to their cousin who rips his own encrypted AAC files?

      • Competition (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Zobeid ( 314469 )
        They should put the tracks on the disc as high-bitrate MP3s. Then everybody would be able to use them easily, no matter what music player they own. Oh, wait. . . But that would mean giving buyers more value for their money, rather than trying to strangle them. What was I thinking?

        Record companies -- and this applies to movie studios too -- need to think less about restraining their customers and more about competing. They need to wake up and realize they're competing against books. . . beer and pizza

    • remind me again what the point is in them wasting money on a product that's doomed from the start?

      that hasn't slowed the music industry down any:
      it seems to me like introducing failed ideas is part of their business plan.
      these guys haven't had to have a new idea in a hundred years -- they are so used to raking in m/billions without working for it...

      Well, not legally, anyway

      In the USA, yeah. elsewhere circumvention for legal use is still legal.

    • The point is that, like the article alluded to, they're desperate for a physical product to compete with piracy and online sales. Granted, it seems like a disaster in the making but, especially in recent years, the music industry isn't exactly known for its ability to work well with the real, changing market, is it?
    • From the article: The DVD would include a music album that plays in both stereo and surround-sound on a standard DVD player -- plus video footage that plays on a DVD player or a computer. There will also be song remixes, ring tones, photos and other digital extras that can be accessed on a computer.
       
      If it is reasonably priced, people may actually like it. Does anybody still use a cd player anyway?
      • Does anybody still use a cd player anyway?

        yeah, me and every single person I know.

      • Re:DRM yadda yadda... (Score:5, Informative)

        by CrackedButter ( 646746 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:34AM (#15846320) Homepage Journal
        Your ignorance is sickening, of course people still use CD players, especially when you know... music is sold on CD"S! What a silly elitist comment to make. Everyday I see those obsolete portable CD players on people as I pass them on the street and ALL the electrical outlets still sell those antiquated CD based music systems, not everything is ipod compatible. Some people still use LP's as well just so you know for future reference.

        • Your ignorance is sickening, of course people still use CD players, especially when you know... music is sold on CD"S!

          The disc player I use in my home stereo system is a DVD player. When my CD player died earlier this year I felt no compelling reason to replace it.
          Sure, my portable media player is flash-based (samsung that plays OGG!)
          About the last place I still have a CD player is in the car, and I suspect that that will end in the next generation: replaced by media inputs and probably DVD players.

          So I

          • Re:DRM yadda yadda... (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Gr8Apes ( 679165 )
            The CD's demise is certainly not pending, at least not in the near term. Just witness all the CD sleeves on autos across the country. Not a single one of those has a DVD player in the dash. Matter of fact, my 2004 vehicle doesn't play anything but straight CDs, my 2006 plays MP3s and WMAs (at least it purports to play the latter). Not a DVD in the mix.

            Those that have DVD video players are most likely not setup for DVD sound, at least I'm willing to bet on that without even checking it out. The reason? My ho

            • Re:DRM yadda yadda... (Score:4, Insightful)

              by Danga ( 307709 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @12:01PM (#15846926)
              The CD's demise is certainly not pending, at least not in the near term.

              While I somewhat agree with you I must say I think it will be less than 3-4 years before cars ditch CD players. Once personal MP3/OGG/etc players become more common I think more and more people will realize that they don't need a CD player in their car anymore, they can bring their entire music collection with them on their MP3 player and not have to worry about CD's getting damaged or stolen.

              I was talking to an older gentleman (I would say in his 60's) the other day and he questioned me about my iPod and how many songs it can hold. When I told him I put every single CD (around 8,000 songs) I own on it and still have plenty of space left he was dumbfounded. He said he still carries a discman around with him and it is a hassle to only be able to bring a couple CD's along, he would love to have access to his whole music collection at all times. I am sure more older people are starting to learn about MP3 players and the advantages they have as well.

              So, I think once more and more people realize the benefits of personal MP3 players and they become more widespread that the car CD player will be history. I also don't think that point in time is very far off. All that it will take is for MP3 players to all start coming with built in radio broadcasters (or whatever it is called) and then BAM, all you need is the radio in the car to listen to your music on the MP3 player and you don't even have to buy a separate broadcast unit. I think the broadcaster needs to be standard because I am amazed by the amount of people who don't know they exist and what they can do so they would never think it is possible to easily listen to a portable MP3 player in the car. The time is coming, just wait.
        • Heh, I just asked a question. Strung a little tight, aren't we?

          I haven't bought a cd for years, and haven't bought a player for a lot longer. People keep trying to give me old cd players. Nobody I know owns a portable cd player. Maybe I am out of touch, in with the wrong crowd, my head in the sand, but I thought that they were gone. They are definately on the way out.
      • If it is reasonably priced, people may actually like it. Does anybody still use a cd player anyway?

        I do, but no so much since i have satillite radio. A lot of people have cd players built into their car now (mine is even a 6 disc changer) or their home stereos; I doubt many would want to replace those things yet again. People DO listen to music other than with headphones.

        I can't think of other places were an iPod or whatever would not be prefered over a CD / DVD.
    • hot DAMN! I'm gonna run out and get me one of these bad boys right now! oh look... paint drying...

    • Re:DRM yadda yadda... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by cayenne8 ( 626475 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:30AM (#15846265) Homepage Journal
      "For those that didn't RTFA, supposedly the DVD would contain pre-ripped, lower quality versions of the song on the disc..."

      Hmm....well, I've not bought from iTunes because they don't offer a high quality lossless format...why the hell would I buy a DVD full of the stuff?

      At this point, I'd still prefer to buy the full quality CD...and rip to whatever format is useful for the listening environment...FLAC for high quality home stereo, mp3 or ogg or whatever for portable and car, which are horrible listening environments, and the loss of fidelity won't be missed.

    • Re:DRM yadda yadda... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Daniel Dvorkin ( 106857 ) * on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:30AM (#15846272) Homepage Journal
      "Compelling physical product" in this context means "crippleware crap that hopefully some sucker will shell out cash for." Bizspeak 101.

      You know what would be a "compelling physical product?" CD's for $5.00. Seriously. All of them. Standard price. They could still make a profit (what's the total production and distribution cost of a mass-market CD these days? Well under a buck, I'm guessing, all the way from the factory to the buyer's hands) and sales would pick up. Of course, at this point there are a lot of people who have got used to the idea of acquiring music entirely in electronic form -- either buying it from iTunes et al., or downloading it illegally, what the labels have to realize is that to most people it doesn't matter -- but I think that by and large, people still like to have a physical object they can hold in their hands.

      So here's my proposal to the labels. Give up on DRM and crippleware and rootkits and all the rest of it. Just make CD's, regular, plain, unencumbered, shiny discs with music on them, and sell them for five bucks a pop. Watch sales soar. Sit back and, you know, enjoy the music, man.

      • Re:DRM yadda yadda... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by MrSquirrel ( 976630 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @11:17AM (#15846633)
        I wish $5 CDs would happen. If the price of an album of music was 5 dollars, I would buy music again... as it is, I probably have about $20 to spend on "fun" per week (I'm a poor college student) -- current CD prices steer me clear of buying music (except from local bands) because I could only buy 1 per week and that would be my only source of fun. I can easily get the music from those CDs by clicking a button online that says "download torrent"... and that still leaves me with my $20 to spend on other sources of fun.

        I justify all my purchases on how much happiness it will bring me and for how long versus its cost: with CDs being almost 20 bucks after tax, I cannot justify this -- I make $10 an hour (University Helpdesk, crappy pay) and most CDs have less than an hour of music -- so two hours of work to get less than an hour of pleasure... pleasure that is only so-so... it's hard to justify that. I already have a lot of music, does that new CD from "Stabby McStabStab" really mean that much to me?

        If CDs were $5, I would easily be able to justify spending my money on them: "it's a half hour of work for 45 minutes of rockin' good tunes!" plus I wouldn't shy away from buying CDs due to "duds" -- so what if I bought one $5 CD that royally sucked; I also bought three really amazing ones.

        Oh well, it's not as if the recording industry dinosaurs are smart. Hopefully they'll be extinct soon.
      • You know what would be a "compelling physical product?" CD's for $5.00.

        Indeed! "Compelling" is the word they seem to gloss over.

        What surprises me about this shift is that the music industry is so narrowly focused on one use of the DVD, a use which very tightly follows how CD's already operate. High quality master, medium quality ripped files, possibly some visual extras. Ta da. CD's already do this, but they're considered less "secure" by the music biz bean counters.

        What excited me about DVD as a format whe
    • Indeed.

      The music industry has for years struggled to develop a new physical format that could spark increased sales by replacing the CD.

      CDs have been replaced. By digital music files.

      And it's not just CDs that are dead or dying - the entire idea of media coming on a physical disk is, like, just so last-century it's untrue.

      Seriously, though - when even my grey-haired aunty has heard of MP3s, iTunes and iPods, and when the majority of people in the west have broadband access WTF are the chances that you'll b

  • DVD players (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Eternauta3k ( 680157 )
    This will either lead to people hooking up their DVD players to their stereos or to the appearance (sp?) of small DVD-audio players to hook up to the stereo. I guess those small, portable DVD players could get slimmer and replace the walkman.

  • protected? (Score:5, Funny)

    by McGiraf ( 196030 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:22AM (#15846203)
    "the main audio mix is to be protected by the same software that already protects the content on normal DVDs"

    I was not aware that DVDs where protected... hum ...

  • Umm, ok.... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Doctor_D ( 6980 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:22AM (#15846208) Homepage Journal
    And why would I want this?
    • Again record exec's are proving exactly how incredibly stupid they are.

      The only recent RIAA band/album I bought was a nice SonVolt CD that had a DVD on the other side of the CD! CD to play and enjoy, DVD of concert Footage and band interviews. This was way worth it so I snapped it up in spite of my no RIAA music bought new rule.

      They do more of this and people will buy them, they make the CD player obsolete, it will fail completely and miserably.
    • Drill holes in them and hang them from fruiting trees - they keep the birds away.

  • Why? (Score:3)

    by mgblst ( 80109 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:23AM (#15846213) Homepage
    What really does this offer the consumer? Does he actually include anything extra on the DVDs?

    I kinda feel sorry for the guy how owned the two music stores, but he became complacent and should have got out a while ago. If there is any room for small players in the music store business, there won't be soon. How can you compete with the online retailers?

    The writing is on the wall.
    • What really does this offer the consumer? Does he actually include anything extra on the DVDs?

      Exactly!

      Many artists these days don't even fill up the first 50 minutes of an 80-minute CD, so I can't imagine myself wasting money on DVDs, DVD Music player, etc.
      • There is a few extras, that might actually appeal to the pre-teen crowd, for some more picture from their favourite boy band/idol stars.

        Blah, I say. A waste. If I want music, then I want music, and I can download that!
    • I haven't gone as far as reading the fucking article, but i would guess they'll add stuff like surround sound for the music and probably include music videos.

      Now, since MP3s don't really support more than two channels (as far as i know) this might improve support for other formats (hopefully ogg, probably m4a, hopefully not WMA or whatever MS calls them nowadays.).

    • I kinda feel sorry for the guy how owned the two music stores, but he became complacent and should have got out a while ago. If there is any room for small players in the music store business, there won't be soon. How can you compete with the online retailers?

      While I agree that in the long term (maybe even medium term?) the Music Store is going to die off and be replaced by a combination of on-line and mega-store "music sections" there will always be a place in retail for a store that sells to a niche.
      The

      • This is what I thought might be happening, but the Music store operator is at a huge disadvantage. When you are able to download music, how can the store hope to cope with the huge array of music online?

        Sure, there still is a market (albeit small) for LPs, but I can't see CDs holding on in the same way.

        Your last statement sums up my belief: So imho the guy needs to re-invent himself or close the doors...
    • Even online music stores are a huge ripoff. I live near 2 amazing used music stores and I've bought more CDs than I ever have in my life. I was in heaven a few months back when one of the stores had a clearance on tons of electronica albums - I bought 35 CDs for $65! And then, while waiting for my girlfriend to finish shopping, I found a few more, and the store owner thanked me again for all my patronage and told me take those CDs for free! What online retailer would ever do that?

      And I feel I'm oblig

  • 5 years late (Score:2, Interesting)

    by jugglerjon ( 559269 )
    I remember wanting something like this 5 years ago when it was difficult to have a portable music source that had more then an hour or so of content. Now I can't see anyone adopting this technology because it's not better then what we already have.

  • Oh No! (Score:5, Funny)

    by oscartheduck ( 866357 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:23AM (#15846217)
    The current DVD encryption algorithms are SO EFFECTIVE [google.com]! How will ANYONE manage to get around this? All teh warez are dooomed! [google.com]

  • DVD DRM cracked (Score:5, Informative)

    by bcat24 ( 914105 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:24AM (#15846221) Homepage Journal
    On the proposed DVD album, the main audio mix is to be protected by the same software that already protects the content on normal DVDs.
    If they mean CSS, hasn't that been cracked for, like, years? So it should be *possible* to copy the music. (Of course, if you can't copy the songs with iTunes or WMP, it is protected from most users.)

  • Not going to work (Score:5, Insightful)

    by GmAz ( 916505 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:25AM (#15846230) Journal
    This will fail. Its inevitable. The difference between a cassette tape and a CD was enormous. This isn't. Most people don't have a stereo system in their car good enough to even care about the audio quality of DVD Audio or even the surround sound capabilities. Nor would people go out and pay for a new stereo for their car. I looked into it once and DVD Player stereos are expensive, many exceeding $400 easily. The ability to use an MP3 player is also key. True, the DVD already has a low quality rip of the music, but who wants that. If they bought a new 60gig ipod so they can have high quality sound, they won't settle for low quality.

    If this were to succeed and CDs were replaced with DVDs, online purchase of music for download would skyrocket because at least those songs can be put on their MP3 player.

  • And they wonder... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by William_Lee ( 834197 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:26AM (#15846232)
    And Time Warner is surprised that their stock is a flaming dog turd, and that they were unable to leverage the AOL merger in terms of media distribution?! These guys are so out of touch with reality that it would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. They refuse to see any opportunity in new ways of digital distribution, and only look for new ways to screw their consumers.

  • BZZT! Wrong Answer! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ToxikFetus ( 925966 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:27AM (#15846242)
    "The new discs would not play on normal CD players, meaning consumers could not simply pop their new discs into their car stereos or other players."

    And thus these discs will not sell. Well, that was easy. Next question?

    • (Paraphrasing slightly): The new discs would not play on normal CD players, and thus these discs will not sell.

      That's not the reason they won't sell. You can't play CDs in a tape player or record player, but they eventually took off enough to replace both those formats. The reason these won't sell is that CDs are good enough. There's no reason to replace your entire record collection again with something that may sound slightly better (then again, if it's a lossy format, it may actually sound worse in so

  • What would the consumer benefit be of a shift to DVD music? The switch from vinyl to CD provided the consumer with a more robust media and a cleaner sound. Even so the switch took many years and its still possible to buy on vinyl.

    I just can't see this flying unless they come out with a compelling reason for the general public to buy into it. This looks like a way to milk another run out of the back catalogue rather than anything else.

  • On the proposed DVD album, the main audio mix is to be protected by the same software that already protects the content on normal DVDs.

    No thanks.

  • Two reasons (Score:5, Insightful)

    by maztuhblastah ( 745586 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:28AM (#15846249) Journal
    Here, boys and girls are the two reasons why this system is doomed (and why it's obvious that Warner hasn't figured out how the consumer and the pirate think/work)

    1) the main audio mix is to be protected by the same software that already protects the content on normal DVDs

    So much for stopping piracy.

    2) The new discs would not play on normal CD players, meaning consumers could not simply pop their new discs into their car stereos or other players. And users would not be able to copy the main audio mix onto their computers

    And there goes consumer interest as well.

    If SACD taught us anything, it's that consumers don't want to re-buy their collection, or replace their favorite stereo just for a minor difference in quality. It's just not gonna happen. There may be a small uptake, but the majority of consumers will say "Doesn't work in my stuff? Well then why bother?"
  • Can't play it in existing CD-players, can't rip it to MP3 players: Do they expect me to carry my laptop around with me? I find that I listen to 80-90 percent of my music while mobile - running, driving, walking to class - places where I don't want to carry another player just for one record company's music.

    Not to mention, no mixing, no randomized playlists, and I have to carry a bunch of DVDs around with me?

    Now that's a surefire flop.
  • You don't suppose they'd put more cookie-cutter crap on every DVD, or higher quality sound would they?

    Most likely, after the novelty wears off, they'll go back to releasing 35 and 40 minute DVDs that cost $30 each, with one good song and the rest just filler.
  • The "good" part is that most people have their DVD sets already hooked to their audiophile monsters anyway (for dolby effects and all the other goodies that come with today's DVD movies), so it's only logical that they would accept a DVD as a music medium, too. And with all those DRM-crippled CDs (or rather, non-CDs, since those things do not conform to the CD standard and thus may not be called CDs), the argument that you can't play it in your car-CD or portable CD player doesn't hold much water either, si
    • The "good" part is that most people have their DVD sets already hooked to their audiophile monsters anyway (for dolby effects and all the other goodies that come with today's DVD movies), so it's only logical that they would accept a DVD as a music medium, too.

      My only speakers are on my iBook. When I buy a desktop, I'll be spending $50 on speakers. I think most of the middle class USA falls more in line with my setup (although I'm more low-end than usual) than your monster audio Home Theatre setup.
  • So, in other words, they are forcing me to play my music in the livingroom while I have 4 cd players through the entire house?

    Or; in more words; they are forcing me to buy 4 DVD drives and screens? What kind of bullshit is that?

  • Subtracted value (Score:2, Funny)

    by lbya ( 880645 )
    So basically it's a CD that you can't play in your car. Sounds like a winner.

  • Um, yeah. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Gulik ( 179693 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:31AM (#15846274)
    So, they'd like to sell me a disk that won't play in my car stereo or my portable CD player, with video content I doubt I'd ever watch and pre-ripped DRM'd tracks I can't use, most likely for more money.

    Wow -- where do I sign up?

    And what really cracks me up is they think that, not only will I want to buy new music in this format, but that I'm going to rush out and replace my existing CDs.
  • Because as far as I know, 5.1 Dolby Digital is 492Kbit/s for 6 channels. Not exactly lossless.

    Do DVDs support any raw format? Anything lossless?

    I sure hope this guy isn't thinking about DVD-Audio format because as we all know these flopped went the way of the dodos.
  • I forget which one of these I have, but I was able to create a DVD with 40 albums on a single 4.7GB disc.

    See here [google.com].

    The one I have even lets you put a picture on the main selection screen.

    I believe there's another one out there that will allow you to put a picture for each individual song.

  • Capitalistic Humility - what WB forgot (Score:5, Insightful)

    by qbzzt ( 11136 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:31AM (#15846286)
    Capitalistic Humility is the virtue of selling what the customers want to buy, not what you want to sell. Seems WB forgot that. It is obvious why this format will be better for WB and the music industry in general. The only drawback is that it sucks for the customers, the people whose money the music industry wants.

    They seem to be like Ford prior to the attack of the Japanese car manufacturers or Apple before the release of Windows 3.1. Complacent, expensive, and sure there is no other alternative for the customer. It might be a good idea to short their stock.
  • They are going to use CSS to protect audio? Wasn't it cracked like 8 years ago? So, in other words, the format is not out yet, yet the DRM on it has already been cracked? I like this.
  • this reminds me so much of the bomb that will be hddvd and blu ray.

    Unless there is a signifigant advantage in a new media it will be extremely hard to get the customer to pic it up. DVDs were HUGE over VHS, CDs were equally superior to audio cassettes, who were supperior to LPs (in portability). But what does DVD audio have to ofer over a CD? When you consider how little data on the average 80min cd is actually being used by the music it makes you wonder just how much extra they can fit on the disks t
  • This is a great idea for the music industry, and solves their copy protection problems.

    It's a horrible idea for consumers. Sure I have a DVD player at home but not in my car. This is risk that the music industry faces every time they change formats.

    It's sure better than suing people who have purchased your product in an unencrypted format for using it appropriately though. It's your fault for not encyrpting it in the first place.

    DVD audio will be ripped anyway, so this is really a crutch.

    Better not charge m

  • Idiots (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:35AM (#15846325) Journal
    I don't ever listen to CDs. When I buy a CD, I pop it in the computer, rip it, put a copy on my iPod, and then put the CD in a safe place. When I am at work, I listen to music on headphones connected to my computer. When I am walking in, I listen with headphones connected to my iPod. When I get home, I listen with my iPod in its dock.

    When I walk around town, I see people with digital music players everywhere, so I doubt I am the only person who does this. Changing disks every album, and not having a random shuffle mode is simply not a convenient way of listening to music. I didn't listen to nearly as much as I do now when I had to change discs periodically; I would listen to an album and then stop.

    This is a step backwards.

  • Higher Fi? (Score:3, Informative)

    by fussili ( 720463 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:35AM (#15846326)

    One of the Joys of CDs is that what you hear is almost precisely what the band hears - Vinyl actually has its own sound so really you're not getting a carbon reproduction of the music.

    Audiophiles decried the 22khz suggested rate for CDs and what we accept as digitally recorded music played back from a computer. CD audio is instead recorded at 44khz and it's pretty much as faithful a reproduction of what you'd hear 'in the booth' as can be expected.

    DVD audio would probably record at 24bit/96khz. To be frank it's faintly ludicrous and almost entirely unnecessary, even for the most vainglorious Audiophile. Consumers can't be lied to and told that there's a difference between the quality because there really isn't. Purists claim they can hear the sizzle on a crash cymbal but since the levels of other tracks are almost always too high for a human to pick that out, it's really just posturing.

    99% of music pushed out of the door is Brick Wall Limited anyway so we're not even using 16-bit 44khz sound to its full potential.

    The ONLY consumer attraction for Audio DVDs would be the increased storage capacity and hence the ability to include more than one album on a disc and in a world where an MP3 player or iPod holds your entire music collection, short of the Studios making it "good value for money" (don't bet the farm on it) that's unlikely to be a big selling point.

  • This must be from the same guy that thought that non skippable anti-piracy propaganda at the begining of legitimately purchased dvd's and before movies at the theatre would be a good idea. Sure I'd love to buy my music again, limit my ability to play it even further and pay more for the privilege in exchange for some poorly done drm'ed digital versions that I could have done a better job of myself provided I had the CD.

    Id really like to see what kind of money is wasted at crap like this and new methods of

  • Bad Headline (Score:5, Funny)

    by BigDumbAnimal ( 532071 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:36AM (#15846331)
    Should read:
    "Warner to Offer Music on DVD"

  • Criminal Records (Score:3, Insightful)

    by truthsearch ( 249536 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:37AM (#15846337) Homepage Journal
    'As a retailer I'm going to be holding on desperately for any compelling physical product,' said Eric Levin, who owns two independent stores called Criminal Records

    Now that's funny. A retailer "sanctioned" by the RIAA called Criminal Records who's afraid of "criminal" file sharing. That's more interesting than these DVDs they're talking about.

    • Re:Criminal Records (Score:3, Interesting)

      by mypalmike ( 454265 )
      I live just down the street from Criminal Records. It's right next to Savage Pizza. Really. It's a very cool independent shop. They know their music. Sadly, I don't think their market is going to be saved by a new physical format.
  • So, if this were to actually happen. And companies were to start selling DVD music players for cars, walkman, stereos, etc. This could become really cool and interesting! Think of the physical size of a DVD vs a CD. Instead of artists spitting out 10 or 12 songs per album, they could produce 100+ if desired! Or, something kinda interesting, with each DVD you buy, the artists could include all the previous songs they ever recorded. Imagine compilation DVDs, they could include Billboard top 100 or somet

  • Wait, let me get this straight (Score:3, Interesting)

    by grasshoppa ( 657393 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:39AM (#15846363) Homepage
    So this new and exciting product will

    1) Not play on CD players ( given it's a dvd and all )
    2) Not be copyable to a computer ( given the same dvd DRM already in place. Stop snickering in the back )

    So their target audience must be...uh...hmm.

    The young and the gullible? But I don't think they'd be willing to drop this kind of scratch on a whole new music infrastructure ( car, home, portable ). So make that the young, gullible with rich parents.

    A remarkably small subset. It would seem these folks are taking a page out of Sony's play book when promoting new formats.
    • You've got it backwards.... The target is the middle-aged, gullible, and rich. No young, rich kid is going to carry around a portable music player large enough to play a DVD-sized format.

      If the music industry ever wants another new phyiscal media to catch on, it has to be tiny... SD card or NDS cartridge sized would do... Anything signifigantly larger than 1" square is doomed unless it is easilly rippable to mp3. But when is the last time the music industry introduced new technology? This has been the least
  • There is already working solution called "SACD", Super Audio CD. It allows "Hybrid" thing so on ordinary CD player you play it like CD (16bit) and SACD player 24 bit stereo (5.1 sometimes)

    I keep saying if I was in USA, I wouldn't think a second. http://www.sonymusic.com/sacd/ [sonymusic.com]

    I may bet the DVDs they try to sell will not have DTS which is much better than Dolby Digital too.

    I really think there should be some offering to us in 2006, to original CD (plastic) buyers (puppets of RIAA?) but this is not it.

    (before
  • Hmm.. Selling a format that I can't play in my car or import into my iPod. Treading over the same ground of DVD-Audio and HDCD, which failed miserably; but offering lower audio quality (standard compressed DVD audio).

    Should be a smashing success.
  • Any good applications out there that can rip the audio off of a DVD track?

    I would love to copy the songs out of some of my daughter's DVDs to play in the car. I can handle the editing once I get the rip onto my PC.

  • And again the music industry proves.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Big Boss ( 7354 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:44AM (#15846398)
    that they just don't get it. This will sell exactly as well as DVD-A (which is probably what it is) and SACD. There isn't a big enough improvement to justify having to buy new players and probably have to buy the CD twice so that normal people can listen in thier cars and such. I have 4 devices that can play DVD-A, and 0 that can play SACD. Well, maybe 2 for SACD if it works in computers, I don't remember on that one. I have a dozzen or so that can play CD-A. Even those I don't use much, preffering my iPod.

    Not to mention, that most bands seem incapable of putting out a GOOD CD, so I end up only listening to 30% or less of the music I paid for in the first place. So now I can't just rip the songs I like onto my computer for burning to MP3-CD mixes and my iPod. That interests me how? Oh yeah, it doesn't.

    I mean really, who wants this? The 1% of music listeners that we call "audiophiles"? MP3 is good enough for most people, so better sound isn't going to sell more shiney plastic things. Think about it, what do people clammor to pay for? Easy, convience. Make it EASY TO DO WHAT THEY WANT IT TO. This is so amazingly simple. Apple is the closest of the legal providers to "getting it". iTMS is fast, easy, and the restrictions aren't bad enough that it bothers most people. I still don't use them for the same reason I don't use DVD-A and SACD, I have a dozzen devices that can play MP3, I have 4 that can play AAC, encrypted or not. The point is, I recognize I may be a minority in that case and see the value for users.

    Personally, the best I have seen is AllOfMP3. Yes, they may not be legal, however, thier system that allows you to choose the encoding format and bitrate is "the way it ought to be" (tm). Those who are happy with MP3 can have it, those who want FLAC have to pay a little more, but they have have it. You OGG lovers can have yours as well. I think the music industry should buy AOMP3, charge a little more, and call it a day. If I could have a legal download in any format I want starting at, say, .50 for 64K MP3, to $1 for 160K MP3/AAC, to maybe $1.50 for FLAC, I know I would be all over that. But the files have to be in the format I need, MP3 or FLAC so I can convert to whatever I want, and they need to be unencrypted. That's the online service I would use, and it's the online service people WANT. You could even set it up so that the user could say "I have an iPod" and it would default to AAC. A legal service like that would get slashdotted in minutes with people wanting to give you thier money.

    Yes, some people would share some music. Reality check, people do that now and they aren't going to stop. If you make it fast, easy, and reasonably cheap, it's eaiser for me to just get on the site and download from you directly. Perhaps the files could be wattermarked? I don't know. I do know that if I were using AOMP3 a lot, I wouldn't bother to ask friends and family if they had a song, I would just go get it myself.

    As for physical retailers, have a setup where people can come in and download songs to thier devices. People don't want to have to go to the store all the time to get things like music. Deal with it. But if you have something like this, people can drop in and grab a song they just heard on the radio or something. Or perhaps retail music is dead, will anyone really miss it?

  • Yep. gonna fail... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Churla ( 936633 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:46AM (#15846407)
    The only way to make DVD's viable as a music platform IMHO would be to increase the amount of real content (i.e. music) which was on the thing.

    As someone mentioned, you can cram up to 40 albums on a DVD without even getting to the higher capacity setups.

    Of course studios would never do this because then you could buy , for instance, every Beatles album on one dvd. PERIOD. Either they would have to charge both arms and a leg for it (how much is the Beatles CD collection complete again?) which people wouldn't normally pay in one drop. Or they'd have to admit that larger collections of media aren't proportionally worth more than single new albums.

    Not to mention several artists would struggle to put together a DVD worth of real solid content without videos.

    Now, on the other hand a DVDA car stereo which could play DVD's I cram full of music? I'm on that. But easier to just get a 30g ipod with a car hookup. So no reason to push that technology either.

    End result, music companies are struggling because they don't want to accept that the consumer is deciding the path of the industry and they aren't.
  • And here I thought the point with a profitable music industry in today's social climate would be to move *away* from these so called "physical products". These DVD's will supposedly contain low quality versions rippable to CD's. Now they just need to answer the question of why people would rather rip low quality music than full quality music for CD's and various portable devices. I suspect the audio masochist community is rather small.

    I'll pirate music and just assume this will flop while I wait for your an

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:52AM (#15846448)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • The market is begging for more convenience (e.g. mp3), not better quality physical media. Especially some drm "protected" junk. Not to mention the incredible inertia they would have to overcome just in the number of players that would have to be replaced. They are just setting themselves up for a painful lesson.

  • CDs are just too good (Score:5, Insightful)

    by General_Corto ( 152906 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @10:53AM (#15846456)
    The music industry doesn't seem to have realized that the Compact Disc is just too good a (physical) format. Consumers are happy with the quality of the sound reproduction (even though the dynamic range being used is fractional thanks to today's editing style), and there's a MASSIVE infrastructre built around the medium.

    There is no future in physical media. The movie business might be realizing this with the whole Blu Ray/HD-DVD debacle, and the music industry should be watching those download vs. physical purchase statistics, because they're tilting further and further towards digital distrubution.

    I expect my next car stereo to have a Type A USB socket on it, so I can plug in a flash drive, or an iPod, or whatever else the TECH industry (not the music industry) comes up with.

  • DVD-Audio? SACD? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by norminator ( 784674 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @11:02AM (#15846511)
    So basically the audio quality will be somewhere between CD and DVD-Audio quality (so it's less good than a product which has, for the most part, been a complete failure among the general music purchasing population), but we're promised the possibility of extra features, like pre-ripped, iTunes compatible tracks (which wouldn't work with non-iPod players) and ringtones (WOW! we should be so lucky to get annoying ringtones with our music!) and videos which are probably available elsewhere on the internet anyhow.

    No Thanks.

  • confusing terminology (Score:3, Informative)

    by DrRobert ( 179090 ) * <rgbuice@m a c .com> on Friday August 04, 2006 @11:02AM (#15846515) Homepage
    The article keeps referring to pre-ripped tracks that are separate from the "dvd-audio" tracks. However I would expect that there are no DVD-Audio format (higher than cd quality) on the disc, only regular cd audio on that has been stored on a DVD. Consumers didn't want the higher quality DVD audio even though it had tracks that could be played on a a regular DVD player. Why would they want a DVD with lower quality tracks that won't play in the cd player. This makes no sense on so many levels. It's so complicated that even knowledgable audio people will have to stare at the stupid package and read the fine print just figure out what they are supposed to be buying. If I can't rip the disc to lossess flac for playing on the home system, then I don't want it... although I'm sure I could rip it if I really wanted to...

  • Foot vote. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by mustafap ( 452510 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @11:03AM (#15846522) Homepage
    I'll not buy them. Simple.

    This will push up online sales, not lower them.

    I still remember buying LPs rather than cassettes because of the quality of the album cover ( early genesis fans will know what I mean ). I'm sad those days are gone

  • Format wars (Score:3, Interesting)

    by zoeblade ( 600058 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @11:04AM (#15846534) Homepage

    OK, so no one's buying SACDs or DVD-As. Bearing in mind that DVD-As can store sound in an uncompressed or losslessly compressed format, and DVD videos store it in a lossy format, why would someone who hasn't bought a DVD-A buy music on a DVD video, without as much video footage as a DVD video showing a concert recording?

    Warner Brothers should just face it: two formats are already trying to outdo CDs, and both are failing. This one will also fail. Most people don't want a better sounding format - CDs are adequate. If anything, MP3 sharing as proven that what people want is convenience, the kind you can't get from a physical disc.

    Personally, I'll stick to true CDs. They have no "digital restriction management" as RMS fondly calls it, and you can still sell them second hand.

  • CD will be the last successful physical format (Score:5, Insightful)

    by swordgeek ( 112599 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @11:19AM (#15846654) Journal
    Someone else said it very well: CDs are just too good.

    There has always been a trade-off between convenience, reliability, and quality. For many decades, records (in one form or another) were the consumer cusp of this triad, although not as convenient as some (cassette and 8-track) nor as good as others (reel-to-reel). CDs came along, and provided truly superior quality, a high degree of reliability, and were very convenient. The CD was and still is a very nearly perfect physical format for consumers.[1] Really, there's no need to replace it with anything, and that's what really worries the recording industry. The only format that will successfully supplant CDs is a non-physical format, and they still haven't figured out how to sustain an entire industry on that. Thus, they keep coming out with new physical formats to delay the inevitable.

    The sad thing is that they're looking for sales hooks, and know that they're not getting them. The sound quality is already flawless, the convenience is as good as it practically gets, and so they're adding 'features.' Two-channel classic recordings remastered to 5.1, video clips, and now bloody RING TONES? I don't think they're really that stupid, just desperate.

    Ah well. Good riddance to yet another crappy format.

    [1] Yes, I know, the CD format has a ton of little flaws: Flawless sound is difficult to achieve in 44kHz/16bit, the plastic scratches too easily, some CDs rot, the cover art isn't big enough, the CDs aren't small enough, etc. etc. But it's close.

  • I have 20 CD players and 2000+ CDs. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Richard Steiner ( 1585 ) <rsteiner@visi.com> on Friday August 04, 2006 @11:26AM (#15846705) Homepage Journal
    Even if a new format came out that was somehow better than the classic CD format, my investment is such that a new format is probably not worth converting to. The conversion to CDs from LPs and tapes made sense -- no more crackling from dust, and no more linear-access media. But CDs are already digital, random-access, small, and reliable. All a DVD offers is more space, something a classic album doesn't need (and something which I can already provide with several of my CD players using data CDs with MP3 files).

  • Only WB could be so dense. (Score:3)

    by MrCopilot ( 871878 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @11:26AM (#15846706) Homepage Journal
    I don't get these guys. 10yrs to develop a brand on television and they change the name.

    20 years of raping profits from CDs. Now any person on the planet can get a CDplayer for 10bucks, a CD/MP3 player for 20.
    They want to change the format. WTF, Ahem

    Memo to Warner Music Division.

    We want the physical media.
    We will pay a REASONABLE price for it.
    We do not want to be forced to upgrade all of our equipment.
    We have no desire to re buy all of our music all over again.
    We do not want Restriction on the use of OUR media other than copy resale.
    We want access to our music and choice of purchase Web/CD/Satelite

    To acommplish all of these, you can either:

    Release your DRM-less music on the web itunes/napster/WBStore whatever, Reduce the price of CDs to less than $10 and Be the alternative to the Sony Empire. Reaping profits and customers lowering R&D/liscensing costs across the board.

    or

    Follow through with this profit killing, customer betraying, Stock tanking, disastrous, nefarious, expensive plan, Risking Being made irrelevant in the music industry.

    Never let it be said that I didn't try to help out the big guys.

  • DualDisc is Underused (Score:3, Interesting)

    by DavidD_CA ( 750156 ) on Friday August 04, 2006 @12:24PM (#15847101) Homepage
    From TFA:

    ...and most recently DualDisc, which plays like a CD on one side and like a DVD on the other. Warner ... But the capacity of both the CD and DVD sides of DualDiscs is limited compared to normal CDs and DVDs. In contrast, the storage capacity of the planned Warner DVDs is up to four times what can be held on the DVD side of a DualDisc.


    It's a shame that there isn't more use of DualDisc. I thought it was a very cool idea. Unlike this proposed new format, the "music" side of a DualDisc works in any CD player. I saw it as an added bonus that you'd get a few videos and other junk if you popped it into your DVD or computer.


    The notion, however, that there isn't enough storage capacity is lame. I've never seen more than a handful of low-resolution videos (at 3-5 minutes each) on a DualDisc. Today they're probably only using 25% of the capacity offered. If they have 4x as much room on the new format, how will that change anything?

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