U.S. IT Hiring Increases Despite Outsourcing 497
surefooted1 writes "A CNN article reports that a new study has shown that U.S. tech hiring has increased, despite oversees outsourcing. It mentions that the job market is higher today than it was at the height of the dot-com boom." From the article: "The study suggests that there are several factors in the continued growth in demand for IT workers here. The report said part of it is due to the use of offshoring by U.S. companies, including start-up firms, to limit their costs and thus grow their businesses. That, in turn, creates more opportunities here even as an increasing amount of work is done overseas. The study also said that companies from a variety of sectors in the economy continue to discover greater efficiency and more competitive operations through investment in IT."
It's Obvious (Score:4, Interesting)
How addicted? So addicted that we'll hire people skilled in it no matter where they live.
Don't believe me? Learn how to speak English and get an I.T. related degree. Bam! You're employed.
The United States is a developed nation. What do developed nations do? Just sit around on their hands waiting for the other nations to catch up? Not quite. Industrialized is one thing but to have a solid infrastructure and to lead the world in technological advances is the current goal in the game.
Everything is beginning to depend on computational devices. Maybe they aren't used in the end result but they're most certainly used in developing/researching any and all products. Even farming has many uses for computers. It's the new basis for information exchange and delivery. How much more important can an industry get?
Why then, is it news that the United States has a great job market for IT Workers? This shouldn't be surprising at all. These workers are needed everywhere and anyone who can't see that hasn't looked at the stock market recently.
Re:It's Obvious (Score:2)
Keeping America competitive requires affordable technology. And here we have a serious problem: America is addicted to technology, which is often outsourced to spicy-food-eating parts of the world. The best way to break this addiction is through oil. Since 2001, venture capitalists have blown nearly $10 trillion to develop faster, cheaper, and more reliable technology sources -- and the guy who throws chairs at
Re:It's Obvious (Score:2)
Louisiana?
Mmmmm...gumbo.
Re:It's Obvious (Score:2)
Re:It's Obvious (Score:5, Insightful)
There are still millions of homes that do not have computers at all; that number is shrinking every day. And more and more households are building home networks, some even going so far as to add servers. Home automation is becoming practical and affordable, meaning even more IT-related equipment is going into the home.
Schools are still trying to catch up to the digital revolution as well. The local district has a 4:1 student to PC ratio, and their target is 1:1. They'll be buying PCs as quickly as budget allows. The more they buy, the more they'll spend on IT--and most of that will necessarily be in the immediate area.
And of course businesses are investing more and more into IT as they stop seeing it as a money sink and start viewing it as a way to increase efficiency or even as an investment.
The outsourcing we're seeing is simply the offloading of what jobs can be done without being on site. There is a lot more IT work that requires proximity than work that can be sent overseas.
Re:It's Obvious (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't even think that computers are important in the traditional sense.
They are too complicated for the average consumer.
Devices that eliminate the horrible computing UI that just perform simple tasks are what the masses need.
Look at how DVD has replaced VCR's in the media player sense.
People get the -buy an electronic device, -buy content for that device, -hit play.
A good bit of the VCR's sold were just that, players even they had the record feature.
A lot of people that did record on VCR's recorded at the time they were watching becuase that's the concept they know, get it as it's happening.
Remember those Internet appliances at Y2K? They required a monthly subscription and still too complicated for the end user and not really a reason for the common person to use it.
People get iPod. The extra step required to get their music on it is a self-educational step they're willing to take.
Really a computer isn't needed for that. A network appliance with an Internet connection and iTunes interface is all that's required.
Take digital photography today, that's the barrier that will bring or self-educate the end user to the electronig age. The ability to instantly share photos and experiences.
Kodak and Flickr and other photo outfits have the right idea about setting up a shared space for users to share photos (although I disagree with the requirement for a viewer to have to sign up). People who didn't know how to program their VCR do understand how to use Kodak's interface and share photos.
I believe that Microsoft and Apple are the reason that computing or computing devices aren't really in more homes. The term 'computer' sounds like you have to be smart to know how to use it.
The same people that bought NES and Playstations with their Disney VHS tapes don't buy computers because there are too many choices.
For MS and Apple to keep the computing angle going (their livelihood), they've abandoned the appliance market.
People would just be fine with an Internet Browser, and a way to organize their photos. Pre Y2K when digital photography didn't have the market it has now, we all knew that those expensive appliances would fail.
If there is going to be a $100 laptop, why not a $100 screen with basic OS and can handle simple networking and external storage?
Hmmm (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not so sure about this. My previous experiences in retail would seem to say otherwise. I mean, there are still similar devices available; MSN TV still exists. I've even sold one.
One. To an old lady who kept coming back to the store once a month for 6 months to look at it before buying it.
In contrast to hundreds of computers. Even people who only want simple internet access seem to prefer to buy a full fledged (if bott
Re:It's Obvious (Score:4, Insightful)
I dunno. Saying we are addicted to technology is like saying we are addicted to air and clean drinking water.
Secondly, business is like war. Those with the most resources and better technology win (or go home with the bigger stock options). A company that doesn't have a competant IT staff and workers skilled in using computers and is competing with a company that does, is like a band of spear men going against a tank in a war game.
Sure, if you throw enough spear men at a tank, you can beat it like in Civilization II, but your basically bleeding more money than a drunken VC at a Phantom Console shareholders meeting.
No one wants to be sent on a Bi-Plane with machine guns against a guy with Stealth bombers and guided missles. The same goes for a guy with a hand crank calculator and a peice of paper going against a guy with a copy of excel and a laser printer.
Re:It's Obvious (Score:4, Interesting)
Only if you're REALLY, REALLY, REALLY lucky. A tank could literally roll over entire armies of spear men, crushing them where they stand. And God forbid they should stand close enough together for the tank to fire a slug. You could lose hundreds of men in a single salvo.
Consider other scenarios for a moment:
* The firing lines of Civil War soldiers could be completely cut down by a single man with a modern machine gun.
* A Roman Legion [wikipedia.org] could be completely destroyed by a single bomb from a fighter or helicopter.
* An RPG or Bazooka could eliminate a castle's defenses by simply blowing a hole through the side.
* The armor of a knight would fail completely in the face of armor piercing munitions. (It's quite possible that an average handgun would be sufficient to penetrate many armors of the time.)
* The most fearsome warships of the Spanish Armada could be destroyed over the horizon through shelling by battleships that are now a century old.
* The best biplane pilots would have been eliminated by guided missles before they ever got their guns close enough to take a shot at a jet fighter. (Assuming they could catch a jet aircraft, which they couldn't.)
* The best battleships of World War I could be easily destroyed by planes from a modern carrier without any losses on the carrier's side.
You point still stands, but it's actually stronger than you think. Having old weaponry won't necessarily prevent you from winning, but lacking technology will guarantee your loss.
Re:It's Obvious (Score:2)
I think that the A10-A may be able to fly slow enough that if the Biplane was at it's maximum altitude and used that to get to maximum mechanical tolerance velocity (don't know the proper term for the spped just shy of when the wings shear off), he may just possibly catch up to the A10. Not that his guns would do much of anything.
Sorry, I know it's off on an un-needed tanget but it was fun to think about.
-nB
Re:It's Obvious (Score:2)
Easily. At close range, even a
Chip H.
Re: Bam, you're employed. (Score:3, Insightful)
At that point, you'lf find yourself categorized and pigeonholed based on the tech that you've had formal wexperience with, not the tech you actually know.
It's easier to find work (in some ways) when you're fresh out of school.
Re:It's Obvious (Score:2)
Different areas and nations of the world tend to specialize in certain things.
From what I see, the US does most of the initial innovating. Japan and Europe take that initial innovation and attempt to "refine and perfect" it. Nations with sweatshop labor like China and Mexico specialize in manufacturing.
And Europe, Japan, and the US do most of the buying, because few people in China and Mexico can afford to.
Re:It's Obvious (Score:2)
Re:It's Obvious (Score:5, Informative)
The jobs aren't going to be searching for you so I have to question what are you doing to find the jobs? I realize you are upset at not having found anything, but my experience is that the jobs are available. Personally, I've recently had calls/emails from former co-workers all trying to cash in on hiring referrals (both new and experienced hires). The IT job market seems pretty strong to me.
So the questions for you are:
Then you're stupid (Score:2, Insightful)
I delivered pizza in college, and averaged around $15 an hour.
I'd say your problem is that you make decisions like accepting a job at McD's when then are other options out there. In other words, you don't do a very good job of looking.
And save your retort, there are ALWAYS pizza delivery jobs around college campuses. If you try to claim otherwise, I'd like your approximate location so I can check.
Told you so (Score:2, Insightful)
This doesn't mean you can get complacent and stop learning and innovating. Just that everyone can learn, innovate, create, and all humanity can benefit and get wealthier.
Re:Told you so (Score:2, Troll)
System Administrator ($60k/yr in the states) ==> India (CHEAP)
Software Engineeer ($80k/yr in the states) ==> India (CHEAP)
Data Entry ($8/hour) ==> United States
Classified Ad Placer ($xxx) ==> United States
Yes, everyone benefits. Some much more than others. The rich get richer, the poor, get poorer. Some really super poor get to move into the middle class, but the middle class in the states gets shafted.
This is how the "global economy" works. As long as there's some pseud
Re:Told you so (Score:3, Insightful)
So.. "I" should be working harder? hello? (Score:2, Troll)
You sound like a supply sider who needs a wakeup call.
Complete and Utter Bullshit (Score:4, Interesting)
Pretending it does is utterly and prima facie dishonest.
But since you mention it, the free trade premise is complete and utter bullshit.
Free Trade (sometimes also known as Globalization) just means that if you don't like the laws somewhere, you can go somewhere else to avoid them. If you think it would be more economically advantageous to grow cotton with slavery, you can find a nation where it's legal, and these free traders will happily buy it back where it *used to be* illegal. By the way, do you think anyone benefits from a labor "market" that's so "free" it includes competing against slave labor?
Well, I guess the slavemasters benefit, temporarily. But not even them, in the longer term. But I digress. Now, remember, IT outsourcing isn't cotton picking - but it piggybacks on the imbalances (currency etc) created by the same differences in social and legal policy.
"This is not about slavery!" Of course not. But the reason the example is so upsetting is that it's the perfectly logical conclusion of laissez faire ("free trade"). We used to have laws that would compensate for the legal and social differences between trading partners, so that you could actually have effective legal protections for workers, social safety nets, and so forth. Free trade is a conspiracy to delicately and gradually remove these policies by making them economically unviable through trade policy.
As a more practical matter it comes not to explicit American-style slavery but "working conditions." It's quite respectable in some economic circles to have a society where the proletariat is, from the age of 6-8 years old, forced to work 14 hours a day in a factory for subsistence wages, where when unsafe working conditions result in some heinous injury making them unable to work means they're thrown onto the street, and without any form of welfare they beg and die there.
Without meaningful public education, class stratification occurs and you once again get back to where we started, a hundred or two years ago.
The problem is that even beyond all the outrageous dishonesty in the free trade policy and rhetoric, it's also a stupid idea. The first world's economy is powered by consumer spending - by a big old liberal lower and middle class. It feeds off the innovation, curiosity and energy of a large population of educated people with leisure time and disposable income.
We've already come from Laissez Faire, and we ran screaming into the Liberal's arms, where we found the most incredible prosperity in human history.
Re:Complete and Utter Bullshit (Score:2)
Re:Complete and Utter Bullshit (Score:3, Insightful)
anti-market = anti-laissez-faire market.
more efficient = child labor, no workplace safety, no education, no free speech, no ability to associate or organize or participate in government policymaking, no hope, no future, in other words, being completely fucked... until, since there's no democractic process, a violent revolution takes place. Or not.
Slavery is efficient. Neofeudalism is efficient.
You know what though? All this efficiency is just shitting where you sleep. It's the Asian Brown Cl
Re:Told you so (Score:3, Insightful)
Empirically, most of the time when jobs are outsourced form one country to another the country that is having
Re:In other words (Score:2)
There are more jobs, not less.
There are more IT jobs now than during the dotcom era. Pay is going up, not down.
Your little timeline is inane and ignorant.
Stop acting like you have a clue, because you don't.
Re:Slashdot discussion summary: (Score:2)
When you say "destroyed," what do you mean? US GDP growth continues to be higher than OECD averages, US unemployment remains below OECD averages, and with the exception of one recent quarter US average total worker real compensation has been rising (most of the increase going to health care, but since we aren't outsourcing that it remains expensive).
Compare with Germany, a country with a trade surplus, but
So outsourcing hasn't killed the economy? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:So outsourcing hasn't killed the economy? (Score:4, Insightful)
Correlation != causation. There's nothing to say the tech industry wouldn't be even more vibrant without the outsourcing.
Re:So outsourcing hasn't killed the economy? (Score:2)
So pick only two:
1) Against outsourcing
2) For trade
3) Have a coherent point of view
Re:So outsourcing hasn't killed the economy? (Score:2)
1) Against outsourcing
2) For trade
3) Have a coherent point of view
Listen, I don't know much about economics, but couldn't there be a rational middle ground of "for trade, but not for quite as much importing as we're doing"? I mean, the trade deficit and INCREDIBLY low % of savings we in the USA have...I mean, there's got to be some questions of sustainability about that, right?
Similarly, with outsourcing...I think that we're "lucky" that it's been proven not to be a panacea, that it brings
Re:So outsourcing hasn't killed the economy? (Score:2)
The rallying cry of the ignorant. There is a dramatic & distinct difference between indirect correlation, i.e. synchronicity, and direct correlation, i.e. causation.
Every day I get up when it's dark outside and scratch my arse. Shortly thereafter the sun rises in the sky. However, correlation != causation so I know that scratching my arse does not cause the sun to rise.
After scratching myself, I slam my head into a brick wall. Shortly thereafter I have an intense headache. Howev
Re:So outsourcing hasn't killed the economy? (Score:2)
Correlation does not equal causation. It doesn't mean that there's never a connection between the two, or even that there's necessarily rarely a connection between the two. It just means that there's not ALWAYS a connection between the two.
The rise and fall of a job market is not a simple thing. The very valid point the post you replied to had was that outsourcing didn't necessarily help things. He didn't say the the supposition was wrong. He merely pointed
Re:So outsourcing hasn't killed the economy? (Score:5, Informative)
I beg to differ. The theory of comparative advantage [wikipedia.org] says that the tech industry wouldn't be more vibrant without outsourcing.
Re:So outsourcing hasn't killed the economy? (Score:2, Insightful)
In other words, outsourcing has actually helped our economy and provided new employment opportunities for the displaced, just like almost every respectable economist has said it would, just like it has always done over the years.
It's helped IT workers the same that it helped Autoworkers 20 years ago. From TFA:
expanding opportunities for those trained in fields such as software architecture, product design, project management and IT consulting
Depending on what one would call Software Architecture, most of t
Re:So outsourcing hasn't killed the economy? (Score:2)
While I am all in favor of providing opportunities for success, personal responsibility must still be first and foremost. If they are not watching out for themselves, there is nothing more that I feel obligated to do.
Ok, I have to (Score:3, Insightful)
(I'm not advocating that outsourcing be banned, however, I am advocating that something be done to help those who were displaced)"
I vehemently disagree on the educational front, and would suggest you post facts for the "economical" d
Re:Ok, I have to (Score:2)
There are two catchs on the education argument:
1) availablilty: schools are crowded, not all that apply are accepted.
2) accountability: many of the same people that say "woe is me, I'm disadvantaged" do not accept accountability for their actions. Our schools have a very bad tendancy to pass the problem on, rather than holding students back.
The economic devide does, in fact exist. It's roots can be traced back to a decrease in quality of education.
The solutoion is to spe
Re:So outsourcing hasn't killed the economy? (Score:2)
Indeed, autoworkers working in Toyota factories in the U.S. are far more productive than those in American-owned factories. Of course, this is because of restrictive union contracts.
On the other hand, in Japan it is mainly robots on the assembly line.
No, I think he's exactly right... (Score:2)
Depending on what one would call Software Architecture, most of these "expanding" fields are ones that require higher education than those who were displaced. The jobs that have been lost are the ones of entry level programmers, IT support individuals-- in fact, the expanding opportunities are ones that have not been moved, or have been minimally affected. The problem with the statement "everything is going to be ok" is that it's not ok for everyone.
You said: NOWHERE in the paper does it des
Re:So outsourcing hasn't killed the economy? (Score:2)
"outsourcing has actually helped our economy and provided new employment opportunities"
1+1=2, "great efficiency" means that there are being sacked people in other then IT depratments because IT department helps to be "more effecient"...
So does it mean that there are more _IT_ employment opportunities and less overall employement opport
Re:So outsourcing hasn't killed the economy? (Score:2)
Not always. That's why there used to be a vicious cycle of depressions until the 1950s (of course, some argue that recessions are just muted depressions).
But there are
Re:So outsourcing hasn't killed the economy? (Score:2)
The "vicious cycle of depressions" before 1950 was mainly a macroeconomic effect because of poor central bank management (as was Stagflation in the US during the 1970's).
Paul Krugman has been more right than wrong
Can you document this, or are you just making up this data?
Grammar police (Score:2)
Re:Grammar police (Score:2)
Re:Grammar police (Score:2)
For every word you type, there are quite a few (actually alot of) words within just one edit distance and the chances of hitting one
a little more info please... (Score:4, Insightful)
And is this at all related to turn over in the industry? are we seeing more hiring because the people who shouldn't be there in the first place are finally bailing?
Re:a little more info please... (Score:2)
Are we seeing a rise in higher paying jobs, or low paying jobs?
From the fine article:
Citing information from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, it said that IT workers have seen steady gains in average annual wages for different fields in the sector of between about two to five percent a year.
Peace be with you,
-jimbo
That doesn't match the Cost of Living increases. (Score:2)
So a 2% increase is less than the 4.1% increase in Social Security. So you're "increase" in salary still means you're falling behind.
Re:That doesn't match the Cost of Living increases (Score:2)
It's not clear from the article whether or not the wage increases adjust for inflation.
Peace be with you,
-jimbo
Mod parent up! (Score:2)
It's the number of jobs at each salary range. Let's make it easy. Here's how it should look.
$20,000 and below | old # | new # | percent increase/decrease
$20,001 - $30,000 | old # | new # | percent increase/decrease
$30,001 - $40,000 | old # | new # | percent increase/decrease
And so on. Then you also need to look at the actual JOBS. Things like "programmer" (entry | mid | senior) and "network engineer" (entry | mid | senior).
Remember, most people do NOT start as the "senior" level.
GREAT!!! There are more jobs... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:GREAT!!! There are more jobs... (Score:2)
Re:GREAT!!! There are more jobs... (Score:2)
Noooooooo!
All my hopes are still pinned on the IT fairy.
Re:GREAT!!! There are more jobs... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd have to disagree. Mostly, because I believe economics and technology is hard to predict. We might see somthing similar in the 2020's if Nanotech took off or neural interfaced VR etc. Heck, we might a second bubble in the 2010's with robotics.
All our current college degrees and current certificates might be worthless when a new technology pardigm comes along and shatters our current economic mode.
The internet boom from 1999 to 2001 was unpredicted and unexpected. It was a shock to the current economic system today and changed all our lives. This is of course the nature of accelerated changes in technology growth.
To sit back and say "This won't ever happen again." is kind of a 'head in the sand' kind of mentality. Personally, I know it may never happen, but I am keenly aware of the fact that if I fail to constantly update my skills and be willing to learn, I might miss out on future oportunities and in worse case scenario also face a pink slip because my skills and degree are no longer valid.
Re:GREAT!!! There are more jobs... (Score:2)
Maybe that point in time was the aberration (Score:2)
Outsourcing Slashdot Writers (Score:3, Funny)
Looks like writers could be the next to suffer outsourcing
Re: (Score:2)
Business is Moving To the Internet (Score:2)
view from the North (Score:2)
Outsourcing Not Worth It (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Outsourcing Not Worth It (Score:2)
As a project manager who has worked with developers in India, I can say that the preceding statement is false.
I found it just as easy to keep tabs on what was going on. The fact that the developers were not right next door made us do a much better job on requirements gathering, design, and change management.
It's all in how t
New IT Jobs (Score:3, Funny)
Replacing workers (Score:5, Insightful)
what the hell is it? (Score:4, Interesting)
Second it's a meaningless acronym. Information Technology
So an I.T. specialist could be anything from an archeologist, librarian to a systems admin with 10,000 IBM servers under their thumb.
My larger point here is just the vast sums of meaningless techno babble that swings around in the press. "IT hiring is up"
For the love of god stop over simplifying everything. Yes we use words like "doctor" or "mechanic" but we still acknowledge they have specialties. Why isn't it the same when we're talking about "business". Is it just because it's simpler to hide the truth and sounds more important?
Tom
Outside of the US (Score:2)
IT hiring is up" ... what the fuck does that mean? In the states? In Canada? globally?
Ofcourse he means the US of A. The rest of the world is just target coordinates.
Re:what the hell is it? (Score:2)
Bureau of Labor figures (Score:2)
the original press release... (Score:2, Informative)
It's High Level Jobs at Lower Pay (Score:4, Interesting)
I've also seen that we pay quite a bit less for manager level jobs than we did before. I make less today than I used to have to pay a developer five years ago. I know lots of developers that got out of technology because the market was so dismal. Forget being a college kid trying to land an entry level programming job, they just aren't available.
So we're basically eating our children. There's no future in entry level jobs for the US tech worker -- those jobs are gone. By definition, the pool of senior people is getting smaller each day, so those jobs should become higher paying over time. But right now there's a lot of highly experienced people available and even though hiring is up, salaries are not following because the pool of people available is still pretty large.
20 years from now we'll be as dependent upon foreign tech workers as we are today on foreign oil.
Re:It's High Level Jobs at Lower Pay (Score:2)
Re:It's High Level Jobs at Lower Pay (Score:3, Interesting)
Offshoring not outsourcing (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Offshoring not outsourcing (Score:2)
Why does an imaginary line in the sand make outsourcing to Joe White 3000 miles away on the opposite coast but under the same government OK, but not to Miguel Brown 200 miles away under a different government?
Offshoring bad? (Score:2)
As for your blanket statement that offshoring is bad, let me rebut that by brining up several areas where offshoring is good.
(1) It provides high-paying technical jobs to countries that don't have a vibrant IT economy. This in turn will help bootstrap their IT economy, perhaps making them viable competitors with the US an
Here is the equation that explains this (Score:2)
do{
programmer = hireprogrammer();
software= programmer.work();
costs+= programmer.pay();
costs+= software.market();
revenue=software.sell();
} while (revenue > costs)
The above function says that if your costs of marketing and paying programmers is less than the
amount of money you make from selling the software than you'll always keep hiring programmers.
Since there are tons and tons of possible profitable applications to make there will almost
Missing info from the told-ya-so's (Score:4, Interesting)
So for example, the overall economy is better because of the invention of the automobile (*). It has opened up new markets and new ways of doing business and increased productivity in our country in countless ways. But it obliterated the businesses of horse-drawn carriages and buggy whip makers. So, while *OVERALL* the economy is better, that doesn't prevent pockets of the economy from massive suffering.
(*) I didn't say anything about the environment being better or worse.. just the economy.
The same is true with offshoring & outsourcing. The IT industry may be hiring more overall, but that doesn't discount the fact that there are pockets in that industry that are suffering massively as a result. My guess is that coders are the most impacted by this.
But don't fret too much. There are other jobs that are becoming available now that coding is getting comoditized. And don't forget that the same facility for easily shipping code half way around the world has also given us free/open source software. So, it's not all bad, and *OVERALL* it's good.
Don't see it here (Score:2)
Re:Don't see it here (Score:2)
Re:Don't see it here (Score:3, Interesting)
In DC, Monster.com lists 255 jobs for "web developer", 225 jobs for "systems administrator", 146 for "programmer", 100 for "tech support", 51 for "web designer".
Perhaps not up to "dot com" era, but then at that point totally unqualified people were being hired. Wrapping nail artists who spent two weeks with "Perl for Dummies" were doing production code work!
This is an ACM study, but who funds the ACM? (Score:5, Informative)
While the ACM or IEEE are theoretically advocates for US IT workers, they both receive a lot of money from the same companies advocating no cap on H1-B visas and so forth. Go to ACM's events and conferences web page [acm.org] and click on SIGCSE 2006. Who is sponsoring this in big letters on the bottom? IBM, Microsoft and Sun, the main drivers behind more H1-B visas.
There are other organizations which are not as in debt to these organizations. I did a web page [geocities.com] of my own about this a year or two ago. Any organization like the ACM that takes massive money from these corporations which advocate no H1-B caps can not be trusted to advocate for IT workers. Only an organization that only depends on money from IT workers can be trusted. It's common sense. In fact, these corporate officers usually have more sense about these things, and who is on whose side, than many IT workers.
high end positions only (Score:2)
No doubt (Score:2)
Every time we have an open position, finding someone reasonably competent is like pulling teeth. We routinely have applicants lie about their experience. We had one guy say he's been doing NT support five years longer than NT has existed.
When we hire C programmers, we give a programming test. Most applicants don't
Dynamic economy (Score:2)
Every action changes the world. This is true whether the actions are done individually by one person, or whether they are the aggregate actions of millions. We could follow the cascade of changes that occurs when o
The ACM is not free of bias (Score:3, Insightful)
So says the "trade group" ... (Score:4, Interesting)
This article has been planted by the "trade group" to further their self-serving interests. Their lobbyists can point to it as an example of why the cap on H1-B and L-1 visas should be extended or why all the outsourcing and sweetheart trade deals with foreign gov'ts and companies ain't so bad afterall.
Well, it doesn't jive with the Bureau of Labor Statistics data. According to the BLS, IT lost 17% of it's workforce in the US over the past 5 years, communication equipment lost 43% of it's workforce and semiconductors and electronic components lost 37% of it's workforce. The US electronics industry has shriveled. Hundreds of thousands of engineers have been unemployed or underemployed (in menial jobs) as a result. I personally know several dozen. No doubt they bristle with rage as they read these rosy assessments of the job market.
Who ya goin'ta believe, the ACM or your lying eyes (Score:4, Interesting)
I read the New York Times report on the ACM study this morning. All I could think of was that old joke about catching your significant other in bed with someone else. "Really", they tell you, "it's not what it looks like. Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes".
My resume [bearcave.com] is published on my web page. So one way I judge hiring is by recruiter calls (obviously this lacks something in the scientific rigor catagory). The other way I judge this issue is by press reports, which I've collected in an annotated bibliography that is at the end of my web page An Economics Question [bearcave.com]. Many of these press accounts describe the experiences of other engineers in today's job market. There are a few conclusions that I draw from the current engineering employment environment:
There are still interesting jobs that pay decently out there. However, pay and stock options are definitely not what they were, even in 1992, much less 1999.
Job instability is way up. The days when you could get another engineering job relatively easily if you had a good background are over. This greatly increases the risk of working for a start-up, since you could experience many months of unemployment if the start-up fails and you're out of a job. The problem here is that most start-ups do not compensate you for this increased risk. They pretty much give you the same pay and stock options that you got a decade ago. But in this new environment you stand the risk of losing your savings or even your house because of a long period of unemployment.
Job security is also way down. There remains a big pool of engineers looking for work and employers definitely have the attitude that they can always hire another engineer, so you're a disposable, interchangable commodity. With many software development jobs there is always the threat that your project will be "offshored" or that when you complete it, maintenance will be offshored and you'll be out of work.
While hiring is at best tepid in the United States and Europe, hiring is booming in India. Employment demand for Indian engineers who graduate from schools with education comparable to schools in the US or Europe has entirely outstripped demand. The good news is that this is forcing salaries in India up. But my lying eyes tell me that what is fueling the demand in the Indian job market are "first world" jobs that are being outsourced.
With the ACM report working engineers are faced with that question of "who are you going to believe, the ACM or your lying eyes". My lying eyes tell me that the story told by the ACM does not reflect the employment experience of the ACM membership.
Re:We're losing entry-level positions (Score:2)
Re:We're losing entry-level positions (Score:2)
I agree, but I'm still uncertain how to advertise yourself as such (even if you have the skills).
When I was unemployed between Jan 2002 and Sep 2004, I found that I was unable to find work (or even get an interview!) in things like PC support or Linux sysadmin work despite having 15+ years of the former (mostly informal experience building dozens of machines/Multi-OS setups/LANs/etc) and 8+ years of the latter.
Even through a temp agency, people wante
Re:Jobs in the USA (Score:2)
Filled entry level is a good thing (Score:5, Insightful)
It's kind of ridiculous.
Dude: Oh no! We've outsourced our cashier positions! Now we're only hiring management, finance, and HR positions for Americans.
Me: But... isn't that a good thing?
Dude: Those positions require more education!
Me: But... isn't that a good thing?
Or.
Dude: I used to get paid $95k as an entry level programmer. Now my friend who just started at the same position is only making $45k...
Me: So you were probably being paid more than market value.
Dude: Yeah, but outsourcing is causing my position to become commoditized!
Me: So you should probably educate yourself more and move up, huh?
Dude: That requires work!
Me: So I guess $45k aint so bad for that mentality eh?
Dude: NO, but I used to make $90k! This isn't fair!
Me: If your company paid everybody double their market value, they'd go under and have to lay you off. That probably isn't fair either.
--
Last time I checked, entry level programming postions aren't something you just walk in off of the street and do. It requires learning too. The IT industry, much with every other revolution, raised the minimum standards of education, training, and expectations. That's the sort of thing that keeps America competitive and able to call itself a developed nation.
Re:Filled entry level is a good thing (Score:3, Insightful)
Pardon me, but IT positions are not like cashier positions. While cashiers do get promoted over time, its not because they've learned anything being a cashier. In IT, as in other professions, you can't graduate from college and suddenly be the senior IT manager (unless you know people in a company that will automatically hire you). You need to gain on the job experience, which most senior positions list as a requi
The Privileged (Score:2)
So you would deny developing nations both jobs and trade with the U.S. If all modern nations took that attitude, the developing nations would be doomed to near-eternal poverty. Until their labour laws are up to U.S. standards, they can't do business with the U.S. And until they can do business with the U.S., they can't generate the wealth to improve thei
Re:Indeed, I pity the young (I'm 45!) (Score:2)
Re:Indeed, I pity the young (I'm 45!) (Score:2)
Don't think that can be said enough
Re:Outsourcing is not evil. (Score:3, Insightful)
What is best for society is normative, not positive.
Note: lower prices mean nothing if pay and number of jobs are also lowered.
read this guy's post [slashdot.org] or this guy's [slashdot.org]
Prices may be lower, but the motive is profit, so this means the number of jobs and the salaries paid are not tracking the the lower prices. The public is losing a percentage of their real income to firms, and it is doubtful that this mas
Re:Nice Job! (Score:2)
How do you define respectable?
The Indians respect many econimists that think offshoring's a good idea.
Instead of being totally subjective your statements would be more effective if you'd explain why offshoring is absurd.
HOW?! (Score:2)
At some point, it all collapses because there's nobody left in the country that are able to pay for what is being offered, albeit at lower prices (though I don't see housing going down, I see it going up along with the ability to pay for it going down hard...).
Re:HOW?! (Score:2)
In a situation where products are becoming cheaper and profits are decreasing, you have to enhance productivity through technology. That is how you stay ahead.
Recessions are part of natural business cycless, but the truth is that real depressions (like the US Great Depression) are a combination of a recession with a massive macroeconomic mistake by the central bank (in the US,
Re:Whoa ho! Hold it folks! "Trade Group" ??? (Score:2)
Huh!?!? ACM == Association for Computing Machinery. [acm.com] It's an organization of computer professionals. I've been a member for over 25 years and trust me ACM does not represent computer manufacturers.