First Nations Want Cellphone Revenue 513
Peacenik45 writes "The CBC is reporting that First Nations in Manitoba want compensation for every cell phone signal that passes through their land because it violates their airspace. The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs recently resolved to negotiate revenue sharing with Manitoba Telecom Services. Ovide Mercredi of the Grand Rapids First Nations says "When it comes to using airspace, it's like using our water and simply because there's no precedent doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do." This move may inspire First Nations in other provinces to follow suit."
Fine. (Score:4, Insightful)
And they should be charged for any rain water that evaporated from somewhere else.
Let's total up these charges...wow, looks like they come out even!
Stop the insanity. (Score:2, Insightful)
And next? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Desperation (Score:3, Insightful)
Hey, if I can be prosecuted for decoding satellite TV photons I'm not considered entitled to, why can't I object to photons being sent across my property?
Will this ever end? (Score:2, Insightful)
It really burns my ass to know that the 45% or so tax that comes off my cheque every week goes in a large majority directly to them, which they then turn around and use in a facetious manner like this lawsuit, or other such things. For a culture that has every advantage and is still in the "shitter" so to speak, maybe the problem is not a lack of money or resources or support, but rather too much.
being single, white, male and in my mid twenties, I can't even speak out, I have no recourse, and then hearing this, its absolutely NUTS.
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Stop the insanity. (Score:4, Insightful)
what happens now (Score:3, Insightful)
2. First Nations installs signal blockers;
3. the signals (using a feature that is inherent in this mode of communication) use neighbouring air to route around First Nations' air;
4. First Nations realise how stupid the whole exercise is
Reality check. (Score:4, Insightful)
That being said, WTF? They are asserting a "property right" that has been rejected via common, statutory, and international law time and time again. A nation can control physical objects that enter their airspace, but not energy. It's like RFA/Radio Marti - nations may not like broadcasting radio waves into their territory, but there isn't dick-all they can do about it except bitch and moan and try to jam it. But in this case, jamming would be a cure worse than the cause - their own members would lose the same access.
I mean, are they serious?
Re:Stop the insanity. (Score:1, Insightful)
By the same logic, the natives themselves could "stop recognizing them". Oops, now 300 million people are homeless.
Clue: there were two parties that signed those contracts. There need to be two parties that break them, if they are ever broken (and we all hope they will be one day).
Re:What resource is being consumed? (Score:5, Insightful)
--jeffk++
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:2, Insightful)
There is no freedom in the US. Don't believe me? Just steal some stuff and get caught and see what happens.
No genocide (Score:1, Insightful)
Moderating (Score:2, Insightful)
They have the right to do this (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Will this ever end? (Score:2, Insightful)
Reverse racism is racism too.
Re:No genocide (Score:2, Insightful)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial [wikipedia.org]
I wonder how long it'll be until we start accepting the truth and quit our denial of scientific, historical, and other important facts for political reasons.
Commoditizing Air (Score:5, Insightful)
-The state of New York has filed suit against Ohio for dumping pollution on them through the airwaves http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/mar/mar18a_
-A portion of the electro-magnetic spectrum is going to be auctioned off in the U.S.
"the spectrum is a national resource that should be managed".
PDF: www.pff.org/issues-pubs/books/060309dacaspectrum1
google cache: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:fH_s8JehCyEJ
If governments can make money off the spectrum then why not so-called "First Nation" governments? It really boils down to how much legal and economic authority Indians should have. And it deals with the ambiguity of a people who both want to claim their individuality and distinction from the rest of society, and still be apart of that society, especially when it comes to exploiting natural resources. It's pretty much politics as usual. Seems like the typical having-your-cake-and-eating-it-to mentality.
Re:Will this ever end? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Stop the insanity. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Stop the insanity. (Score:5, Insightful)
Spike: I just can't take all this mamby pamby boo-hooing about the bloody Indians.
Willow: The preferred term is...
Spike: You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and you took their land. That's what conquering nations do. It's what Caesar did, and he's not going around saying, "I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it." The history of the world isn't people making friends. You had better weapons, and you massacred them. End of story.
Re:No genocide (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They have the right to do this (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Moderating (Score:4, Insightful)
Time to end the Indian segregation (Score:2, Insightful)
It's way past time to end this ludicrous segregation of Indians into subcitizens on reservations. I propose that we convert reservations into private property contained within the states or regions encapsulating them, with the tribal council or other group elected by the tribal members given the deed to the property. Furthermore, declare a 100-year statute of limitations on all property disputes nationally.
Seriously, let's repatriate our brothers and put this insanity to rest.
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:2, Insightful)
In what way is property tax not the same as rent?
Am I the only one here... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Will this ever end? (Score:5, Insightful)
While I agree the current system doesn't work (in fact, it's absolute garbage which likely exacerbates the problem), pretty much everything else you've said is crap, IMO. I've been to quite a few reserves in Manitoba, and I don't see very many silver spoons in people's mouths. There are plenty of reserves that are absolute holes, where residents don't even own the crappy thirty year old run-down trailers they live in (not allowed to own them on some reserves, from my understanding). No sewage, no garbage pick up, no pavement, mud, no jobs, a laissez faire attitude by the RCMP toward crime (hence lots of juvenile vandalism, arson etc.). What's the option? Move to the city and get a job? Kind of tough when the immediate assumption by too many people, yourself included (I'd guess), is "lazy Indian expecting free hand outs.".
AFAICT, it isn't "current land claims they are proposing", but existing agreements they want honoured. Personally, I want my government to keep its word, even if it costs me. Some of these treaties are fairly recent (government agreements with natives during the world wars to get them to fight etc).
And since when did non-violent civil disobedience become "terrorist antics". You might as well paint Rosa Parks with the same brush.
If 45% of your taxes are largely going to the Indians, you need a new accountant (either that, or I need yours).
being single, white, male and in my thirties, I can speak out, but I have no recourse, I want my government to honour its agreements. Who knows, it might help.
Re:What resource is being consumed? (Score:2, Insightful)
However, this is just taking the piss.
I like the Faraday Cage idea. I'd gladly chip in for that, just to fuck these idiots and their claims over.
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:5, Insightful)
You have the ability to choose precisely to whom you pay rent. You can avoid really bad landlords, as well as landlords who would use, or you find out are using, your rent moneys in ways abhorrent to you. You have no such choice with the government. Additionally, when you pay rent, you receive in return a service you desire and are actively attempting to obtain (a place to stay.) When you pay property taxes, you receive what the government decides to give you; you have little (or no) control over your end. For instance, it is one thing for a taxpayer to receive the "service" of schooling if there are children in the house; it is entirely another when there aren't. It is one thing to pay a tax for television transponders if you watch broadcast television. It is entirely another if you don't. It is one thing to see religions exempted from property tax, thus increasing what you must pay, if you support religion. But if you don't... And so on.
So there are differences. The ability to do much about it, however, is questionable. The larger the area you live in, the less effective your vote is; likewise, the more you differ from the average citizen, the less powerful your vote is. Representative democracy as practiced in the US doesn't serve the minority except as an afterthought, or when cornered.
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:5, Insightful)
a) It's a local tax, not a "US law," and some localities may not have property tax. States specify maximum taxes, but not minimum.
b) You might as well ask "what's the difference between my power bill and my gas bill?" The answer is what you get for your money. You aren't paying the government to use your own property; you're paying them for the services within their jurisdiction -- usually schools, water, roads, police, streetlights, etc.
c) It's a TAX. Likewise, try not paying your income tax and see what happens. That doesn't mean you don't have a right to earn a living, but you *also* have an obligation to help maintain our society.
d) "What happens" is usually that a lein is placed against your property, and that lein must be paid if/when the property is sold or transferred. In some localities, the worst thing that happens is that your name is printed in the local paper. In others, sale is forced, in which case you still get all the money after the government takes its cut.
So how is that like rent again, where you have nothing to show for your money, cannot transfer posession of the asset, and are liable for damages?
People who say you don't "own" the property are using very narrow definitions of the word "own." It could be argued that you don't own anything, since there are no guarantees that someone else won't take it away, and you forfeit all of it when you die. Such definitions are both impractical and misleading.
Purchasing rights to breath the air is next.... (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not right because the use of it doesnt make it unusable for any other purpose INCLUDING reusing it for the same purpose in concurrency. If there's no scarcity, you're basically saying "We should be able to charge people for (being fertile/breathing/growing hair), and simply because there's no precedent doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do."
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:3, Insightful)
Stop pretending that you are forced into the deal, when in reality you are simply unwilling to exercise your choice.
Re:nobody likes a freeloader (Score:3, Insightful)
Boo fucking hoo. Get a job like the rest of us had to. So your great-great-grandfather got a bum deal. You're still here, aren't you? Adapt! Make something of yourself. You're not *forced* to live in abject poverty. You want to talk about bum deals? Talk to the Aztecs. Oh wait, you can't - the Spanish erased them from history. A lot less complaints from Aztec descendants that way it seems.
If you want to go all Borg-like (and this *is* slashdot, so I guess it's obligatory) :
Join our culture or perish. Your distinctiveness will be added to our whole. Resistance is futile.
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:3, Insightful)
This may work in an abstract, theoretical discussion - but in practical terms it is not even nearly as feasible as walking into a next house for rent, probably just next door.
No wait, the other way around: if you want to rent property that the landlord owns, you accept the terms he's offering, or look elsewhere.
That is simply incorrect. You and the landlord are equals, and you have as much right to change the contract as he has. You may not know it, but that's how it is. If the landlord wants your money he will accept your changes; you may for example opt out of some services, like clubhouse access or gym or parking or TV. Similarly, if you don't like his contract you will walk away. Deals between private parties can be anything they like, as long as it is not illegal. None of that is true when you deal with the government - you aren't signing any contracts with the government, and you have no practical offer (unless you emigrate.)
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, but the government really hates competition in that area...
Not that it's stopped a [wikipedia.org] few [wikipedia.org] people [wikipedia.org] from trying over the years. It's a good way to end up at the end of a rope.
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:1, Insightful)
talking... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:3, Insightful)
Nope, we're talking about Native Canadian reservations. Not that it changes the argument much, but it's good to get the country right
I'm actually originally from Manitoba, currently living in British Columbia. I'm not sure how it is down south, but here Native issues are a very complex and politically charged area in both provinces. I personally have trouble trying to separate reason from emotion, and my first instinct is often to think that it's a money grab. On one hand, many reservations are in dire financial need and the money could help them. On the other hand, I'm not sure such funds always go to where they are supposed to or are used in a manner that is really helpful.
There often still seems to be the feeling within Native communities that the Natives are owed for losses of the past. While there is no arguing that those losses were major, I'm not sure that maintaining that pattern of thinking is a strategy that will win out in the long term (or even in the short term). That feeling of being owed leads to the expectation that other people will take those troubled communities and fix them, but the fixing needs to come from within for it to work. Unfortunately, I fear that this airwaves thing is another knee-jerk "you owe us" reaction rather than one aimed at helping those communities from within. Hopefully I am wrong.
Re:Let's hope they win! (Score:4, Insightful)
What weird area would that be, I wonder?
but in practical terms a landlord will be in a relative position of power in any such negotiation.
I don't know why you think so. If I talk to a salesman I don't consider him above me. I have a business offer, that's all. I'm not afraid of him. If he says no, it's his right, just as it is my right to say no. If we don't agree I will walk away, big deal.
It is often much easier for him go without a tenant than it is for you to go without somewhere to live.
Do not betray the fact that you never worked as a landlord. The ones that I know would laugh at this statement of yours. They spend 30% of their time sending reports to their bosses on how many units are rented and what are the prospects. If the number drops below a certain number they get kicked out - not that it's hard to find a replacement landlord these days... it's a largely unskilled job. Besides, you are free to return to him later and accept his offer, but he is not able to find you a week later and accept your offer. The renter has a tactical advantage.
You are just as free to try and renegotiate terms with the government.
I understand that you only restate your previous position, but your phrase is worth quoting :-)
Of course you do have another form of recourse with regard to government -- you do have a say in who makes up the government and what policies it pursues.
Huh? What country are you talking about here? Not the USA - the country of Compassionate Conservatives and Democrats Determined To Stop The War, I suppose? (I don't know what happens in .nz where you appear to be from; it could be a True Democracy for all I know.)
a government [...] still provides you with some means to renegotiate.
I would like to know some of them that still work. Soap, ballot and jury boxes have been tried to no effect. The last box is scary, and is not likely to help either. Got other ideas?
A government isn't inherently evil anymore than a landlord is.
A government has more control over you, including control that you personally haven't permitted the government to have - since you haven't signed any papers to that effect after you were born. Contracts with landlords are signed by you, and should be to mutual benefit of both parties, and they can be dissolved when they are no longer interesting. You can't dissolve a "contract" with your government, and this gives the government more chances to affect your life against your wishes.
Re:devil's advocate says: spectrum (Score:3, Insightful)
We should be celebrating our differences, celebrating humanity as a whole, rather than waging personal racial wars against each other, simply because one was fortunate enough to be born in an affluent part of the world, and another was not. In the example of America, there is nothing more in tune with the American ideal than a person landing on the shore from another country, penniless and seasick, looking to make a living
I cannot tolerate racism. However Cultures are different. Some cultures are better able to deal with certain situations. What happened to most native cultures is it met a culture that out produced, out murdered, and was better deriving nutrients out of any given piece of land. A person born into a culture such as the deep forest cultures in the amazon is going to grow up less able and less intelligent. It's not his genetic potential that causes this but a consequence of his less competitive culture (developmental environment). Culture is not a static thing and it can be changed. The native communities in Canada are not homogeneous and some do very well but many don't. Partly because the current culture of many of them are defeatist. They wish to deny the system, as it isn't their system. They feel the system owes them. They feel the system is against them. Which become self fulfilling prophecies. Unfortunately the system is not going away and if you push too hard the system will shift much harder against those communities.
The last three decades have seem administrations sympathetic to the native communities and Canada as a whole attempting to help. Don't fool yourself, it's not out of human decency but instead out of political fashion and a bit of guilt that they have done as much as they have in the last 30 years. If you inconvenience enough people via Air Tax and high way protests and the belligerence I see from the native communities in my work this will quickly dropped out of fashion. I'm Chinese and we were discriminated against as well but We sucked it up and marched on with proving we can do just as well in the system. That is what the native communities have to do. Drop the belligerence, drop the angst, and prove they can compete just as well.