Interest in Embedded Linux Remains Low 270
burnin1965 writes "According to EE Times interest in embedded linux remains low. I was surprised to see their headline considering I just purchased a Sony TV which runs linux and I assisted my brother in setting up an Actiontec DSL modem which runs linux. A few years back I had only heard of devices that ran embedded linux and now that they are starting show up everywhere interest is low? The survey did bring up three issues which should be addressed by the embedded linux community, whether those issues are misconceptions or actual problems. 1) Incompatibility with software, applications, and drivers. 2) Performance or real time capability. And 3) support."
Dlink (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Dlink (Score:2)
Just curious here on that statment. Are you talking about Linux as in the kernel, or linux as in a distribution like redhat? Just thinking about real-world implementations of embedded Linux such as Tivo and Linksys routers... Don't recall seeing tons of security advisories for them, and they are pretty popular. Even then, most of the advisories are about APPLICATION problems and not the underlying OS.
Re:Dlink (Score:3, Interesting)
Is 17% low (Score:3, Insightful)
Real Numbers Elusive (Score:3, Insightful)
It's about economics (Score:4, Insightful)
On the other hand, if I'm making ten units of something, engineering time is my largest expense. In that case, I don't particularly care about license fees or the cost of the tools, I just want to get the job done as fast as possible.
So, consumer goods will use Linux but most developers don't design those. Most developers work on projects that won't be produced in large numbers. Therefore most developers will continue not to use Linux.
So driver support.... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:It's about economics (Score:5, Insightful)
Look at the latest Linksys WRT54 router. They've abandoned Linux and gone to VxWorks, despite the huge up-front cost for WindRiver tools, but they can use half the memory chips. This is a big win on a large production run.
On a limited production item, you often can't afford commercial tools, because it will make the selling price of your product non-competitive. Just the price of one copy of the VxWorks tools will probably add about $20 to the BOM cost on a production run of 1,000.
Re:It's about economics (Score:2)
Many product advisories are application related, not necessarily the underlying platform.
Also keep in mind that many of the linux kernel adviseries would not be applicable to an embedded platform.
Re:It's about economics (Score:3, Informative)
Not saying linux is better, but I am questioning whether it is worse in an embedded environment, or if it's about the same...
1/3 of the market is huge (Score:5, Insightful)
So, reading this backwards, a third of embedded systems developers are interested in embedded Linux and/or expect to be using it soon.
Compared with where the market was five years ago this is huge. Of the other two thirds, a large percentage goes to TRON [wikipedia.org] and probably VxWorks. And if you want vendor-provided qualified platforms and support, you can get that [windriver.com] from the same folks who make VxWorks.
Surely a change in survey results from a year ago is something to be curious about but there's no indication it's a trend.
Re:1/3 of the market is huge (Score:2)
Re:1/3 of the market is huge (Score:2)
Dupe! More Stupid M$ FUD. (Score:2)
Shame on the EE Times for this FUD! (Score:3, Informative)
However, what's NOT being reported by the EE Times is what's significant here.
If you look at the linuxdevices.com survery, the number of systems using linux is about 20-25% IIRC. Say it's 20%. This is in line with the survey.
But the REAL interesting thing here is that Linux has come from virtually nowhere in the pa
GPL? (Score:4, Informative)
Linux won't take over the embedded world, mainly becuase embedded is a commercial market. Who wants to invest money in developing a product, only to have the open source community go after you? And you get bashed for trying to earn a living.
Before you flame me, I did make a good portion of the code used in my embedded device available to the BSD community. I won, they won. Nobody twisted my arm.
I'm posting AC, STOP KARMA WHORING!!!
TDT
Re:GPL? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:GPL? (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think the GPL crowd is "going after people for trying to earn a living", they are simply protecting their work. If you use GPL'd code, you have to make it available it... those are the conditions of use. Pretty simple.
I developed an embedded device using NetBSD. I would love to use Linux, but the agressive stance of the GPL license (Linksys!!) keeps
Re:GPL? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:GPL? (Score:2)
You're the exception. The number of GPL violations (specially in embedded products) is increasing at an alarming speed. We're lucky that Linux is GPL, if they're not collaborating even when licenses forces them it's easy to imagine what would happen if the license wouldn't force them
Who wants to invest money in developing a product, only to have the open source community go
Re:GPL? (Score:2)
So? What is stopping companies from not using Linux? What I HATE is that choose Linux as their target operative system and after getting millons of lines of code FOR FREE they blame Linux for not being "free enought". Fine, just don't use it.
The word "community" has the word "collaboration" in it. Companies want a NGO-style community: Give me everything you can without expecting anything in return. The open source communit
wtf man? (Score:2)
Just FWIW, I recently bought a Sony TV. It included a copy of the GPL. You can get the code for all the GPLed software the thing runs.
Re:wtf man? (Score:2)
Re:GPL? (Score:4, Insightful)
The rules are simple : reciprocate or fuck off.
Re:GPL? (Score:2)
That's what I dig about the BSD license. It comes without the attitude and ideological baggage. It actually is free software, no strings attached. It's not a shoehorn to get you to buy into a philosophy.
Most embedded systems are one big statically-linked executable. If you use any GPL code at all, you're required to place the entire work under the GPL. Not only that, but you must provide the tools needed to compile and install it. This is the bit tha
Re:GPL? (Score:2, Informative)
It just means you need the Makefiles / install scripts etc.
Re:GPL? (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not at all about not wanting to give back your changes. The main problem is the static linking clause (LGPL kindof solves that).. in most of the projects we made, there is some part (think decoders, etc) that's licensed from a third party and simply can't be shared.
So that rules linux right out, cause more often that not everything's linked together into one big image.
We've considered using open source libraries quite often.. it'd be great to be able to use a ne
Re:GPL? (Score:2)
"Sony TV which runs linux" (Score:5, Funny)
Re:"Sony TV which runs linux" (Score:2)
Re:"Sony TV which runs linux" (Score:2)
But for me, the rootkit fiasco was just the final nail
No, I don't have any actual stats or failure rates, it's just my opinion based on personal experience of me and others I know (yes, a small sample blah blah blah...still my opinion)
What I do think this shows is that companies
Re:"Sony TV which runs linux" (Score:2)
Isn't this a good thing? I dont doubt that Samsung are a good company also, my last 2 mobiles have been Samsungs, and if I were buying a laptop then I likely wouldnt go for a VAIO b
You trust it more than you think you do. (Score:2)
You expect it to work as well or better than your Play Station. If it came from Microsoft, you probably would not expect the same. There are levels of hell in the non free world.
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Is interest low or do these devices simply work? (Score:5, Interesting)
a lot of people probably do run linux... (Score:4, Informative)
anyone got anything on the list? [hint: try under the 'game' section]
Is interest low or do these devices simply work? (Score:2)
They are actual problems (Score:5, Informative)
The second issue is a real concern. User experience is significantly degraded when the interrupt latency is longer than the expected reaction time. There are ways to reduce the interrupt latency in Linux, but the side effects are undefined.
Support is only an issue because it is so expensive. Likewise, there are only a few top-tier Linux vendors who can offer good support. Montavista, for example, is one of the premier (if not the premier) embedded Linux vendors, but they can't support everyone who wants to build a Linux-based embedded solution. They pick and choose their support contracts, and anyone not selected needs to find someone else with the relevant support capabilities.
(embedded) linux in standalone devices (Score:3, Insightful)
dont forget #4 (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:dont forget #4 (Score:3, Funny)
Eh? Anything with more than 2 components (aka, every electronic consumer product) needs an OS. Devices don't just cooperate on their own.
Re:dont forget #4 (Score:2)
And if the device is going to have an friendly interface for the point and click crowd, a web server is also needed.
Re:dont forget #4 (Score:2, Informative)
That's ridiculous. Just because something has a processor in it doesn't mean it's running an operating system.
Most embedded products still run on simple 8 bit microcontrollers. These all run some software, but most don't run anything that could be called an operating system.
Think along the line
Re:dont forget #4 (Score:2)
Please, this is a site for nerds, and nerds should be able to distinguish between 'OS' and 'OS + Shell + Tools + User Interface' (which the layman was told by the marketing to call an o
Re:dont forget #4 (Score:3, Insightful)
Such a thing is generally referred to as an OS if it's responsible for handling the execution of other programs that are loaded and unloaded from memory. However, if such a program is the only program running on a device, then it's generally not considered an OS. Most embedded systems have only a single p
Re:dont forget #4 (Score:2)
That's a pretty broad definition of "OS". And even so, it doesn't fit many embedded systems. The "starts and stops tasks" bit just plain doesn't exist for simple event-loop driven
Re:dont forget #4 (Score:2)
What is ment in this article with "OS" vary quite a bit from person to person. Point is that there is a very large difference between the "while (1) { run all apps once }" and a complete OS environment like Linux.
If you have a small embedded system it's quite probable that the while loop approach will do just fine. It may even do better than a Linux solution.
Furthermore standard Linux requires a MMU in order to run; there are many processors out there without MMU. (You can get
Re:dont forget #4 (Score:2)
Re:dont forget #4 (Score:2)
You should always look closely at why you need the power - if its just to run an OS, you've designed the code wrong.
Steve
a microwave? (Score:2)
http://www.beyondconnectedhome.com/products/micro
Re:dont forget #4 (Score:2, Funny)
Re:dont forget #4 (Score:2)
http://www.livinginternet.com/i/ia_myths_toast.ht
Ok, so they didn't use SSH... small nit to pick.
When to use an RTOS or C++ (Score:2)
Great point. Embedded developers need to ask what they want from an OS. Threading? There are several lighweight OS independant packages out there. pt threads is my favorite. Maybe you just need a round robin processing loop. Device driver frameworks for chip peripherals? Posix-like drivers are also easily developed without an OS. If you get to the point where you must run multiple processes and you need interprocess communication or full blown networking and have a larger device (ARM, PPC), then yes reach f
Not surprising (Score:5, Informative)
This, sadly, is very much an pointy-headed-boss driven decision. From the perspective of the HW/SW teams its just plain stupid. The problems are probably pretty representative why those 66% aren't looking into Linux.
Its gross overkill. Linux architecture is for general-purpose multi-user information processing loads. It does a whole bunch of things that are simply ballast for an O.S. that is there simply to control some special-purpose hardware and run a simple on-screen-display. Bigger micro, larger flash footprint, more on-chip RAM gobbled. This really really hurts in a genuinely cost-competitive marketplace. If you're building an Net appliance type of thing of course Linux is almost a turn-key solution. For embedded control... its the wrong kind of OS.
Licensing is a pain if you have non-trivial know-how you don't what to gift your competitors realised in your Firmware. You end up doing really vile hacks like doing stuff in user space via 'dummy drivers'. Debugging becomes fun fun fun....
The abstract machine doesn't fit. In the embedded control space sometimes the cleanest solution really is to do direct HW access. However, the hard kernel/userland divide of Unix O.S. makes doing this in a systematic, safe, way rather clumsy. You end up writing around a bazillion special-purpose HW-dependent ioctl's where what you really wanted was some selective access to the I/O bus. Then you need a HW workaround with hard real-time requirements and the 'fun' really starts.
In short Linux is a fine information processing
Re:Not surprising (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.pt.com/products/nexusware.html [pt.com] [NexusWare(TM) Linux-Based Software Suite]
http://www.uclinux.org/ [uclinux.org] [Embedded Linux/Microcontroller Project]
http://www.denx.de/wiki/bin/view/DULG/ELDK [www.denx.de] [Embedded Linux Development Kit ]
http [mentor.com]
Midas XL8 (Score:2, Informative)
Missing figures (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Missing figures (Score:2)
--
Evan
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Mindset (Score:2)
Embedded programmers have a different mindset, because that why they're embedded programmers. If everyone started on embedded programming we might put an end to bloat.
Steve
Designers vs Units (Score:3, Insightful)
If, for example, you have 1000 projects using an embedded OS of some kind. Let's say 900 of these are going to be either small-run, specialised devices, or flops. The remaining 100 are consumer items, mass-produced and sold around the world. If Linux's 17% happens to account for a large proportion of the top 100 projects, their market penetration is huge. If it's 17% accounts only for small-run projects, then it's not doing that great.
A better heuristic, IMO, would be how many units are being produced with embedded Linux, rather than how many designers are using Linux.
Creating perception, not reporting reality (Score:3, Insightful)
Trying to create a trend or perception where there is none. Witness all those smarmy "the suit is back" articles.
In addition to accepting paid and free propaganda, trying to create public hysteria to influence political outcomes, the MSM survives on renting reader's eyeballs to advertisers. Whatever it takes to do that, they will do. Slashdot itself has fallen into that same cycle, with regular articles about "political" subjects sure to get 800 replies (and corresponding ad impressions) but with no valid technical content.
New SuperSig:
Make the requirements to vote the same as to own a gun.
Simply go to the polling place, fill out a Form 4473 [atf.gov], show your ID [aclu.org], and the poll worker will check with the FBI database [fbi.gov] to make sure that you're not prohibited from voting. If everything is working correctly, you will be allowed to vote in a few minutes.
If the GCA/Brady system doesn't violate the rights of gun owners, then what possible objection could there be to implementing the same system for voting?
Robert Racansky
big surprise. (Score:5, Interesting)
QNX on the other hand, will practically send an engineer on site to hold your hand while you get your BSP running. Support is cheap and the runtime licenses are down in the noise threshold.
Sure, QNX has a few issues. So does VxWorks. But Linux is a real lose, and I've tried.
Frankly, if I was starting from scratch and rolling my own BSP, I'd choose NetBSD. Embedded friendly license, code purity, and it probably already has your processor arch.
Re:big surprise. (Score:2, Informative)
It's true that once the OS and eval boards are selected, a BSP has to be created by one of those vendors. This is much further down the line and usually must be well thought out in order for a project to be successful. Working with MontaVista is a pain, though.
Not to be a shill for Cirr
Re:big surprise. (Score:2)
Re:big surprise. (Score:3, Interesting)
Another thing that happens is if your product uses DSPs, the hardware people will expect that you will not even use an embedded OS and write the application directly to hardware. As one HW engineer told me, "Its very easy, what do you mean you need a driver? When I did it it was just one line of C code (to write data to memory)." Once I pointed out we were upgrading
Re:big surprise. (Score:2)
I noticed our Ricoh Afficio copier/printer/scanners run NetBSD embedded. I wondered why then thought "of course it runs NetBSD!" I haven't tried hacking into them, but there doesn't seem to be many accessible commands.
Other EL News.... (Score:2)
"A new survey released at the Embedded Systems conference reveals that more than half of all current embedded design projects are running behind schedule."
"The survey -- dubbed the "2006 State of Embedded Market Survey" -- indicated that some 55 percent of current embedded design projects are late or have been cancelled."
How accurate can any survey be when over half the projects are late and/or are being canceled? Bad mojo in the field of EL and not a good time t
34 % of respondents were not interested, 66% are? (Score:2)
66% are using or are somewhat interested?
So that's a good thing.
Programmers vs. devices (Score:2)
Embedded Linux, Industrial controls (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Embedded Linux, Industrial controls (Score:2)
An OS is only for multi-sw-part systems (Score:2)
But up to a point you are free to use per application designed common libraries and run-time systems, you don't
The other opinion (Score:2, Informative)
This is interesting stuff, as Linux, although behind Windows embedded in certain device types like smartphonse, is constantly gaining market share, and clearly leads in devices like firewall, router and wifi appliances.
-FreakGeek
"The rumors of my death are exaggerated." (Score:2)
There are already a surprising large amount of drivers around that actually works well on embedded devices as well, as long as you behave nicely and issues ordinary shutdowns. And if there isn't a device drive
Bogus Survey? (Score:2, Insightful)
I have done embedded design for more than 20 years. I have been subjected to many goofy surveys than were written by marketing suits who were clueless about how to ask proper questions. The typical survey says "Will you be doing an embedded design in the next 6 months? Y/N" and then it gives some kernels to choose from. The category of "hand rolled" is always
Linux is being used in highend embedded devices (Score:2, Insightful)
We're developing an embedded medical device with millisecond lantency needs.
We get to use a 192MHz arm chip which is more then enough to use a linux kernel and drive our application. It's not hard real-time like a rocket control but it's more then enough for us.
Kernel and framework support for the popular embedded boards and chips (arm) is growing extremely fast, so much so that its better (for us) to use the latest distributed kernel then attem
Shes fat (Score:2)
I think for most small devices Linux is just too big. However
IRC Channel Metric? (Score:2)
I personally have dabbled in developing on Embedded Linux PDA's and enjoyed it. But it seems as the hardware vendors out there (at least based on what's available in the U.
Quantum Tape Libraries (Score:2)
File and TCP/IP stack (Score:2, Informative)
Re:dvd players (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:dvd players (Score:2)
The reason most players have '.' and '..' is probably because they're using DOS, not Lin
Re:dvd players (Score:2)
VMS
RiscOS
Re:dvd players (Score:2)
WANG VS (now probably Getronics VS)
Re:dvd players (Score:2)
Status VOS uses 'this "OS Rosetta Stone" when trying to remember the one for VOS (since I unfortunately worked with it at my first job).
Re:dvd players (Score:2)
i was going on one of the characteristics that linux _would_ have and _windows_ wouldn't
What could you be referring to?
i know windows _can_ use the same format (ie ".." and "." both work on it) but it's obviously not that due to the inclusion of the superflous "."
Now, for the finishing blow:
Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.
H:\>dir
Volume in drive H is Storage
Volume Serial Number is 38F8-EFBC
Direct
Re:dvd players (Score:2)
Re:dvd players (Score:2)
linux does and has this attribute. i bet you are just some idiot windows fanboy who's never seen a bash shell
Your ignorance is actually stunning. The Windows explorer doesn't have current directory and previous directory shortcuts listed because they're superfluous in a GUI interface. They're on
Re:dvd players (Score:2)
Always slightly annoys me when I use *nix stuff, as it never seems to work (at least by default) on them.
Re:dvd players (Score:2)
Re:dvd players (Score:2, Insightful)
Although I remember coming across a distro where . was in the path by default for all users except root. I still think it's better off that . is not in the path at all.
Re:dvd players (Score:2)
Of course the way Unix works is a bit different (like the way commands like ls are programmes in their own right rather than part of the interpreter), but you could surely at least set it so that the current directory has the least priority out of the directories checked.
Re:dvd players (Score:2)
go to the root directory of your windows installation.
do a
dir dir.*
and see for yourself.
Re:dvd players (Score:2)
Of course the way Unix works is a bit different (like the way commands like ls are programmes in their own right rather than part of the interpreter)...
Re:dvd players (Score:2, Funny)
Nobody is _that_ stupid, so it must be flamebait.
Re:Embedded linux is dying (Score:2)
-Mod: Moderated (Score:2)
Re:Linux is everywhere... (Score:2)