Fantasy Author Robert Jordan Passes Away

willith writes "James Oliver Rigney Jr, author of the long-running fantasy series The Wheel of Time and better known to millions of fans by the pen name Robert Jordan, died on 16 Sept 2007 from cardiac amyloidosis. Jordan announced he had been diagnosed with the disease in March 2006 and vowed to beat the odds, but determination and gumption sometimes just aren't enough in the face of a disease with a median survival time of just over two years. Jordan was in the process of writing the twelfth and final book in the Wheel of Time series, A Memory of Light, but the book was not slated for release until 2009 and is still incomplete. While there is hope that the book will still be finished from Jordan's notes, this is devastating news to all of us who have been reading the series since 1990."

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

Personally I hope they don't bother to put book 12 together, I stopped at 9.

There are thousands of people who have hung on for 17 years to reach the end of the tale, regardless of how much it had deteriorated in the later books. I have been unhappy with the most recent books myself, but I still wanted to find out what happens nonetheless. I probably speak for the majority of his readers in this. I'm saddened by his passing, and it would be even sadder if the story were never finished. It's almost certainly what he would have wanted.

I hope his notes at least reveal the outcome to whomever picks up the story. (Orson Scott Card, are you available?)

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

Card? It must really have gotten pretty bad.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

If Card took the helm, 60% of the final book would involve Olver as the protagonist, and Rand would become a thinly veiled allegory of Joseph Smith.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

I agree with you. I just cant decide if that would be better or worse :)

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

Card is an author that started out great and somewhere decided to market to the lowest-common denominator and churn out endless sequels. It was certainly that way with the Alvin Maker series. Red Prophet [amazon.com] is one of the finest fantasy books I've ever read, but all home that the Alvin Maker series would continue at such a high level were dashed when Alvin Journeyman came out, and it only got worse from there. Perhaps Card's turn for the worst happened around 1994-1995 when he was at work on both Alvin Journeyman, the last Homecoming book, and the fourth Ender novel, all of which were very disappointing. Now, this author who started out making real contributions to science fiction as legitimate literature is just an airport paperback writer.

Similarly, Jordan started out very fine, but around the fourth book of The Wheel of Time, when the series really took off and every high-schooler was reading it, he started to meander and stretch things out. One does wonder if Tor, the publisher of both Card and Jordan, put any pressure on them to produce unnecessarily long material.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

I have only read the first book of the series and found it quite great. Does it get worse later on? Why are you saying this?

Yeeeeeep. The first three are pretty good, they probably could have stood on their own as a quite decent, though incomplete, trilogy. The fourth one is usually when people feel it starts to dip in quality, and the nadir is about the ninth book. I understand that the eleventh book is something of an improvement, but then you've got to get through the increasing amounts of filler from four through ten.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

As the series progresses, the books get progressively slower up until book 11, when he starts really wrapping things up substantially. You could probably completely skip book 10 and not even notice it; at least book 9 something happened in the plot, even if it wasn't very much. Been a while since I read them, but I think the only significant plot advancement in book 10 was the rescue of someone (saving names so I don't spoil anything) from some Aiel, whose capture had happened somewhere in book 9. Their capture itself was not a significant plot element, and so far as I can tell has no outcome on the entire series other than to have given one of the major characters something to work on for book 10, which is good, because it's the only thing that happened.

Like I said, it's been a while since I read that book, and it could be that I'm missing something, after so many books over so many years (and many re-readings of them, including most recently listening to them as audio books), what happens in which book gets blurry.

I'm not trying to knock the series, just saying he seemed like he was stretching it out. I still think of the series fondly for all of that. I was eagerly awaiting the 12th book, and I do sincerely hope that a ghost writer is able to finish it. It's fairly epic, but the series would have been even better as 9 books.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

IIRC you are correct about the WOT being a trilogy.

Jordan's passing is all the more disheartening for this. He could have been an epic figure in fantasy lit, but he gave in to the marketing drones.

I absolutely loved the series until the last chapters of book three. His legacy is fucked now. The later books in the WOT series are as unreadable as his work on the Conan series.

Anyhow... RIP Jordan. You wrote more good lit than I ever did, even if the good material was the vast minority of your output.

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It's so true. He should have done what R.A. Salvatore has done. Rather than taking his trilogy and making it 12 books long, he just wrote another trilogy using the same characters and then another. Then he wrote a prequel trilogy and so on ad infinitum. The end result is a story-line that is nearly as long as WoT, but is manageable because you take it in chunks. Each series of books is fairly self-contained, and tells a story in itself while still leaving enough loose ends on which to base another series of books.

Actually, now, as I am writing, I am reminded of the best at this, Terry Pratchett. You don't even have to read the books in order. He really is a genius at making every book completely self-contained, yet having them still sit in a larger story line. In many of his trilogies I have actually read the second or third before the first, and it made complete sense.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

But there's a difference between writing multi-volume epics that cover multiple story lines and padding out the books with ad-nauseum descriptions of camps/jewellery/men and women arguing.

Robert Louis Stephenson once wrote that his motto was "Death to the optic nerve" meaning that he wanted books where the situation of the protagonists were presented as the story went along, doing away with the need for large chunks of descriptive exposition.

Jordan wasted his story-telling abilities with huge (try 11 pages of description of walking from one side of the camp to the other) tracts of petty details and description that did nothing to further the story or enrich the characters. This was the blatant padding that pissed of so many people that were huge fans of the first 5 or so books and then became disenchanted with the rest. It wasn't the multiple story lines or the massive number of characters - it was this repetitive (here's a camp description, here's another camp description, and here's another camp description) rubbish that polluted the later books. Winters Heart could probably be replaced by a 20 page synopsis and the first 400 pages of Crossroads at Twilight is just the rehashing of the last (admittedly important) chapter of the previous book. This isn't a stylistic style but a a plea - don't waste my time and my money.

It is a great shame that he is no longer with us but I wonder how successful the series would be if a real editor was let loose on it? It would be condensed to about 6-8 books and may well be the greatest piece of sci-fi fantasy ever written.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

Actually, now, as I am writing, I am reminded of the best at this, Terry Pratchett. You don't even have to read the books in order. He really is a genius at making every book completely self-contained, yet having them still sit in a larger story line. In many of his trilogies I have actually read the second or third before the first, and it made complete sense.

There are two author's that I have almost all their books: Terry Pratchett and Lois McMaster Bujold. Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles books (http://www.baen.com/author_catalog.asp?author=lmbujold) aren't usually as funny as Terry Pratchett, but if you are into space opera scifi at all you can easily pick up any of the Miles books and be enjoyed without having to worry about entire back stories of characters. Oh, the books are much better if you have read them all and do know all the ins and outs of the backstories, but you can lend any book of the series to a friend and usually get them hooked.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

There are thousands of people who have hung on for 17 years to reach the end of the tale

The curse of buying from a supplier with a single-source. If you're smart enough to buy a plain beige box made of parts from 30 low-bidders, that can run a variety of operating systems, you should be smart enough to buy novels written the same way. That way, if once of the writers dies, any number of other low-bidders can just pick up where he/she left off

Honestly, buying a novel from a series written by a single writer is like buying a Mac. Sure, the writing might be a little better than if it were written as a collaboration, but it's TOTAL VENDOR LOCK-IN!

Never buy a book from a series unless it has at least 3 authors!

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

"In the spirit of the man, friends and family of the deceased have requested that his eulogy be tedious and poorly written."

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

That's a pretty rough criticism of a man who wrote a story that would humble Tolkien himself.

I doubt it. Tolkien knew how to tell a story. In particular he knew that not everything that he ever envisioned happening on the face on the face of middle earth should be puked out into the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Tolkien could let characters like Gandalf go off on side quests without covering every detail. We only knew Gandalf was rescued by the eagles - that's about all that's in the book. Jordon would have taken us on that flight. We know he found his way back to Rivendell; Jordon would have taken us on that walk. At one point Sam is cooking some rabbits he caught - Jordon would have made damned sure we knew exactly how and where they were caught. And gollum? Jordon would have been sure to cover everything he did too... from leaving the mountains, to being captured and tortured, to his release, and tracked him all the way back to Moria. When the sword that was broken was remade, we didn't have half a book dedicated to the tale, nor the tale of its delivery.

Tolkien's world is famous because of its immense depth and detail. Lord of the Rings is good writing because while you get a sense of all the depth and detail, its history, and its complexity. Very little of it is actually in the book; you know its there because you can see its 'edges'; but Tolkien didn't try to tell EVERYBODY'S story. He knew better.

Consider that Tolkien had the fellowship break up. He elected to chase essentially 3 paths, not ALL of them. We could have had books dedicated to what Gandalf was doing, we could have followed Boromir's boat over the falls and into the hand's Faramir, and followed Faramir from there. We could have followed Wormtongue after he was cast out of Theoden's throne room back to Isendgard, or followed the Ents after they were roused... but we didn't.

And had we done so, it would not have improved the book.

At the other end of good 'epic' writing is the Foundation Trilogy by Asimov. Its the complete opposite of Tolkien - Asimov tells the story of the galactic empire seen through shifting perspectives at critical turning points. The effect works. You see Seldon's vision unfold, and though the vignettes are character driven and you connect with the characters, at the end of each vignette you see the big picture take another step forward.

While it may be difficult to follow the individual plots of dozens of major and semi-major characters, that is a shortcoming of the readers mind and not the author.

What is the Wheel of Time about exactly? Its not really about anything because its about everything. And its not about everything because its spends to much time focused on the minutia of individuals. It tries to paint a forest by telling you the story of every tree. And in the end you have neither a good sense of the forest, nor any decent connection to any particular trees.

That's not the failure of the reader, that's a failure of the author. Because its a poor way to tell a story.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

Tolkien knew how to tell a story.

Well, to be more accurate, Tolkien knew how to construct a plot. As far as actually "telling a story", the man pretty much stunk up the page. His prose is so dry and boring and hard to read that I've never been able to finish the books. I know I'm not alone in finding his writing unbearable.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

Rule #1 of reading Tolkien: Skip the poetry.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

I used to feel the same way till I found out that his poetry (and his prose) was an immitation of ancient styles. From that perspective, it's all very well written.

The Lord of the Rings is a book I can reread every decade and it grows on me each time, I learn knew words, passages that I skimmed over or thought were boring become my favorites, old characters I thought I knew appear in a different light, some subtlties take on new meaning for me, I come to enjoy this poem or that.

I believe now that the Lord of the Rings is a truly incredible feat of literature. Despite many surface similarities, it is wholy different than any other fantasy I have read, almost none of which could be called great literature.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

That's a pretty rough criticism of a man who wrote a story that would humble Tolkien himself.

Tolkien would be humbled by the Wheel of Time? Tolkien would be humbled by the Wheel of Time?!? Tolkien would be humbled by the Wheel of Time!?!?!?

You have got to be kidding (or on some extremely high-quality intoxicants). If Tolkien had the patience to finish TWoT, humility wouldn't be the emotion he'd feel. Annoyance, probably. Disgust, possibly. Pity, very likely. Here's a comparison of the two writers:

Tolkien

• invented roughly two dozen different languages, with free borrowings from one another and a historical development of language and dialects over time
• invented the history of a world on a grand scale from its very beginning
• wrote some detailed stories covering very small periods within the above
• finished each individual story
• could write

Jordan

• wrote three or four good books
• kept on putting huge amounts of words on paper ('writing' is hardly the term) long after his fans had decided he was insane and would never finish
• never finished

I too enjoyed the first several Jordan books. I was in grade school when they came out. I'm nearly thirty now.

I will grant that Tolkien was actually humble despite his great talents and that Jordan was proud despite rather limited ones.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

If he failed to do that

Aha, but he didn't. I personally, and all my friends who read Wheel of Time, loved it. Including the later books that are being reviled here. I also am reasonably certain that we aren't alone. Just because not everyone liked the whole series, doesn't mean he failed to make his books enjoyable.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

Respect for the dead is not inteaded to comfort the dead, it is to comfort the living left behind.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

If all critical remarks should have been withheld until at least a week after his death, then where would they be expressed? This thread will be well over by then. Is Slashdot planning to start a new thread in a week or so? (And how could they announce it, if that itself might be taken as critical? "{Please hold all negative comments about Mr. Jordan for next week, when Slashdot will re-open the thread." Oooh! that sounds pretty critical, implying that not everyone has a high opinion of Robert Jordan's works!). So, we're in a thread where some people can post their opinion, free from any criticism, because criticism of each other's posts becomes criticism of the deceased? Handy for one side!
        And seriously, the attempt to stifle one poster you're referring to (by resorting to negative personal comments) was not just illogical, it was mean spirited, petty, and vindictive. For a moment, it made me personally think less of Mr. Jordan, that he was attracting the sort of fans who would stoop so low. You resorted to the same technique by labeling people hyperactive. Apparently, there is an ad hominem fallacy in your argument for decency, so excuse me if I don't just take your word that the previousl referenced post was free of them.
        That part of the thread where you joined in doesn't just concern Mr. Jordan, although I grant he's certainly central to it. By the time you posted, there was also a living person who was being insulted and abused. Your defense of this act shows you may think well of the dead, but have less respect for the living.
        Now I'm going to have to read at least one of the WoT series. To do otherwise would be to commit a logical fallacy myself and judge the man by the quality of his fans.

   

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

I love this classic argument [somethingawful.com]. Anyone who's never made a successful movie can never say Uwe Boll movies are crap. Anyone who's never been Miss Missouri can never say that chick gave an air-headed response. Anyone who's never written a #1 best-selling book can never say the Wheel of Time series is tedious.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

I thought that he was finally getting back into form toward the end, especially the second half of #11. I'm sorry to see him go.

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Did you just say that the writer dying is a blessing? How fucking offensive, especially to those of us who were as close to him in the end [dragonmount.com] as we possibly could be as fans. I hope the death of no-one you care about is called a fucking blessing.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

Welcome to the internet, where nothing is sacred. Try not to let it bother you.

Re:a blessing on readers of Wheel of time

These books were kind of like the literary version of Zeno's Paradox. In every book, less happened than in the previous book. And extra plot lines were introduced all the time. At that rate it would have never finished. Things started to pick up a bit later, but I too stopped reading. And when I heard he was sick I vowed I wouldn't read anything else until he was done with it.

Death took him.

And I'm pretty sure it wasn't Moridin.

What really happened

God finally finished Book 11, said "Are you fucking kidding me?", and whipped out the Smite Stick.

Re:What really happened

Hundreds or thousands of decent people died in the last 24 hours. If *you* have had enough of an effect on the the world that random nerds care enough about you to make a reference to your legacy, count yourself lucky.

Robert Jordan wrote some great books. Then he turned 1 great book into 4 shitty ones, and unfortunately died before the end. Sucks. But if you can't laugh about shit, what's the point?

A real pity

Not that it is a big surprise. Personally I expected this message for about a year now.

It would have been nice for him to be able to finish the series. True, a certain amount of foot-dragging in the middle of the series got him into this fix, but still I think somebody undertaking such a large venture, and mostly sucessfully, should have the satisfaction of seeing it finished.

It will be interesting to see how this is going to be finished. The material should be there, but w