QNX "Opens" Source Code

Arista writes "QNX has announced that effective immediately, the company will open the source code to its QNX embedded, RTOS, microkernel operating system. From the press release: "Effective immediately, QNX will make source code for its award-winning, microkernel-based OS available for free download. The first source release includes the code to the QNX Neutrino microkernel, the base C library, and a variety of board support packages for popular embedded and computing hardware." OSNews features an interview with the CEO of QNX, Dan Dodge, on this announcement."

That's cool

These are the guys that released that really cool Desktop GUI + PPP stack + web browser and OS on a single floppy disk back in the 90s. I remember also reading that the Photon GUI would let you pass applications between computers through a dock on the side of the screen. Neat stuff.

Re:That's cool

So a dual license? Blasphemy! I've never heard of a successful open source project using dual licensing!

Re:That's cool

I've never heard of a successful open source project using dual licensing!

From TFA:

We aren't releasing the OS code under an open source license.

Dual licensing is fine, but none of them is open source. Also from TFA:

If fact, we're providing three licenses: one for commercial users, one for noncommercial users, and one for QNX technology partners.

It's no different from Microsoft's Shared Source. None of the licenses counts as Free Software.

Re:That's cool

Insightful? I was trying to be funny... =( I guess I'm gonna have to go back to prop comedy.

Re:That's cool

"Open source" is a term of art with a very specific meaning [opensource.org]

That's one definition. Here [answers.com] is another. `Of or relating to source code that is available to the public'.

People redefining words to fit their agenda (for good or bad) is nothing new. And like it or not, the English language is ambiguous, and one word or phrase may mean different things to different people. And just because they use a definition that doesn't jive with the one you prefer, that doesn't mean they're `wrong'.

Anyone in the software field, or any related field, who thinks that "open source simply means the source is available" is dangerously ignorant.

Anyone who speaks English but honestly thinks that words or phrases can only have one meaning is either 1) in denial or 2) doesn't really speak English.

Let me be the first to say....

Cool!

Voting machines

This is huge news. One of the most popular paper ballot systems, the ES&S model 100 optical scan runs on QNX. this means it is now theoretically possible that ES&S could go open source if they wanted to.

Re:Voting machines

int maxDonation=0;
int bestCandidate=0;
for (int a =0; a<= numCandidates-1; a++) {
if (candidates[a].donation > maxDonation) {
maxDonation = candidates[a].donation;
bestCandidate = a;
}
}
 
candidates[a].CastVote();

Not only corrupt, but also buggy. It always casts the vote for the last guy + 1, overflowing the candidates array. Apparently the last defense of democracy is that people code like crap.

Microkernel? WTF?!

Don't they know that it's standard wisdom on Slashdot that microkernels can't work? What's wrong with these guys?!!! Myself, I'm still waiting for GNU/Hurd :)

Re:Microkernel? WTF?!

Myself, I'm still waiting for GNU/Hurd

Oh right, I heard Duke Nukem forever requires it.

Re:Microkernel? WTF?!

Myself, I'm still waiting for GNU/Hurd

Oh right, I heard Duke Nukem forever requires it.

No, the Duke box will actually say "GNU/Hurd or better". That's why I installed Vista.

Excellent news

QNX has some of the best real-time features of any OS and its message passing architecture is reliable and pretty simple to use. The main problem so far was its price, lack of source and overall lack of applications. This will likely change quickly if it is open-sourced. I can see it become a serious contender to the various complex and poorly documented patches to turn Linux into a real-time system. Excellent news indeed.

Under what license

I didn't see it in the article, but what license are they releasing this under I wonder. Will be one of the standard ones or will it be YAOSL (Yet another open source license)?

Re:Under what license

TFA:

" under a new hybrid software licensing arrangement. "

And:

" Access to QNX source code is free, but commercial deployments of QNX Neutrino runtime components still require royalties, and commercial developers will continue to pay for QNX Momentics® development seats. "

(Hint: It's definitely not GPL)

License key?

I've been trying to get the non-commercial key from them for Momentics, but it doesn't seem like they plan on sending it to me anytime soon. Anyone else having any luck?

Source Available, NOT Open Source

Sheesh, this is no better than Microsoft's "Shared Source"! They restrict commercial development, just like Microsoft.

This is Source Available software, NOT Open Source Software. You don't have all the freedoms available to you that are described by the Open Source Definition.

They're being demolished by linux

I've done a few embedded linux projects over the years - we would have loved to run QNX, as I was exposed to it in university and enjoyed it, very robust, supported etc - but the licensing fees are killer. The offered advantages, at least in the applications we've worked in make it a no brainer to go embedded linux.


Access to QNX source code is free, but commercial deployments of QNX Neutrino runtime components still require royalties, and commercial developers will continue to pay for QNX Momentics® development seats.

Looks like I'll be keeping my investment in embedded linux environments. Royalty vs. no royalty with same functionality, I'll tell you who wins every time. Linux keeps getting better, too.

Good news.

Its good news for me. I played around with QNX (around v6.1 I think) and was really impressed by the speed it could run on older machines. If I had a single CD install that could browse files, play MPS and run firefix then I would install in without a seconds thought. I remember being vaguely unimpressed with the license and installing Mandrake instead (hey, it was a few years ago..)

For a fuller office experience Ubuntu would win because of the application support, but for simple client Net/Music use in places like a lounge or bedroom QNX has got to be a good option.

It's time to talk about "free software"... *again*

The title of the press release is "QNX Publishes Neutrino Source Code and Opens Development Process". Arista, on the other hand, didn't seem to mind mangling this in order to get this article posted to Slashdot.

I imagine this kind of thing might be why Bruce Perens said way back in 1999 that it's time to talk about "free software" again [debian.org].

Non-free licence means minor event

It's a shame that QNX won't be released under a more free licence, as it really is a nice product. It has one massive advantage -- it's very small and slick -- it'll run on anything. It'll make a useful side-tool for development (most likely for compatibility testing), but it won't be able to compete with GNU/Linux at any real level if it ain't GPL'd.

It's "shared", not "opened".

Don't drink the PR Cool-Aid(tm) boys. Distinguish this PR hype from reality and call it what it really is -- "Shared Source". It's not Open Source(tm), and it's not "Free".

You need licenses to do things like release your own version, and that puts it in the same ballpark as Microsoft's shared source initiative.

Mixed memories of QNX

I used to program it when it wasn't a POSIX compliant kernel but some weird ass vaguely Unix-like thing. The compiler was terrible, the tools were terrible, the OpenLook-like UI was terrible but it was still a lot more liberating than programming Windows or DOS. You could do some very whacky things since it didn't really matter too much if you were talking to a process or filesystem on your own machine or somewhere else on a token ring. The real time and multitasking performance was generally excellent. I remember wasting a good portion of work just trying to port Unix and DOS tools like MicroEMACS over to it to make the environment more tolerable. In some ways the switch to Posix probably killed some of the charm QNX used to have - it was like trying to build a kit car without all the pieces. Nowadays it's just another *nix clone, even if it still focuses on the realtime market.

A Brilliant Open Source Move

QNX has a viable business model just selling the test suite and certification package for the OS, without selling the OS package itself (although they will still make a killing licensing it for commercial use). They have an established base of customers in the embedded systems market who need to prove to regulatory bodies that the OS will do what it claims to do - and these documents would be worth every penny. This is an excellent way to take advantage of open source licensing.

Frustrating: QNX

I find the history of QNX very frustrating. When I first heard of it in the mid 80s, it was advertised as a simple Unix-like OS with very low hardware requirements. It was network-aware, supported distributed computing, and had a nice microkernel architecture.

But the most important thing was that it was a real OS, with the ability to multitask and to effectively isolate hardware from software. Contrast this with MS-DOS 3.0, which had only the most primitve, kludgy excuse for background processing. (Patterson knew zilch about os design when he set out to clone CP/M; it never occurred to him that OS code needed to be reentrant [wikipedia.org]. And MS-DOS did a really lousy job of isolating hardware from software. Ironically, this fuckup assured lockin of the IBM-compatible/PC combination: software written for this platform was essential impossible to port to other platforms.

What was particularly tantalizing was that QNX claimed to run well even on very limited hardware — even 8088 systems were said to run robustly. And it shared some key features with CTOS [wikipedia.org] an first-rate OS that was then dying off, due to its dependence on proprietary hardware.

The problem with QNX was that commercial license fees were very high; that's why I never played with it. It did become popular at universities (cheap academic licenses) and among certain kinds of embedded application developers (because of its nice feature set and minimal hardware requirements. I'm told that by the late 80s, most video stores used POS systems based on QNX.

Then MS-DOS/Windows started grabbing more and more of the market and QNX was forced to specialize. So for a long time now they've advertised themselves as a real-time operating system. And yes, their real-time features are very good — but they're just one part of a really good general-purpose OS.

Now, much too late to do me any good, there's an open-source version of QNX. I wish the QNX OSS community well, but there's just no place for it in the world I work in. Hopefully, embedded application developers will keep QNX alive. But I'll always be sad that QNX never found a following among common PC users — which it surely would have if the marketplace were driven by technical excellence instead of various sordid realities. This is one of the great lost opportunities in computing history. And should be a lesson to Linux advocates who think they can easily displace Microsoft.

in other words

QNX is not doing as well as they would like, so they think they can capitalize on open source and maybe take advantage of those who are afraid of the GPL v3.

Yeah that may sound trollish, but there are several companies that are doing the open source thing because they are not doing so well.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I'm just saying QNX is not doing as well as I think they would like to.

Free BSP?

Cool, that was the one thing that was missing in the past with the free version. All i ever found was ix86. Anything else was $.

Use It for Linux

Now Linux kernel developers can use code from QNX to make a RTOS that runs Linux apps and the smaller (but still valuable) library of QNX apps. And maybe port Linux (or the new combo) to HW that now runs QNX but not Linux.

It comes too late to finally get Linux working on the Geode-based 3Com "Ergo Audrey" [wikipedia.org] I had such hopes for. But the HW was already obsolete. Maybe now a QNX/Linux OS will get such a promising "home GUI" to work with all the apps that would make it such a neat terminal.

The noncommercial version returns - maybe

The problem is, QNX management has said that before:

"The new QNX initiative consists of several key elements . . .

• In recognition of the ease with which developers can obtain and begin development with Linux, QNX has decided to make their new QNX Realtime Platform free "for non-commercial use". Developers can now download the software and its associated development directly from the QNX website.
• In response to the growing desire for source code that has resulted from the exploding popularity of open-source Linux, QNX will soon release the source code for many QNX applications, drivers, and libraries."

That's from a press release back in 2000 [linuxdevices.com].

Last time, the free version of QNX stayed around just long enough that free software developers ported their major packages to QNX. Then QNX management yanked it away.

Despite the new press releases, the QNX CVS source repository [qnx.com] hasn't been updated in six years.

Sweet, now I can...

...dig that old iOpener out of the basement and, wait, I don't have a basement, damn, I sold the iOpener to some kid, maybe I can score a v5 on eBay, ACK! Only 3, and they obviously don't know which rev they have... dammit, I'm gonna have to work on this, l8r, much, !sleep. Must have.

misleading article, it's not open source

This article tries to make you believe it will be release under an open source license, but apparently, it will be nothing more than a proprietary license that lets you look at the source code.

It looks like a lame marketing campaign to get people to contribute for free to their proprietary project.

Not a surprise

This is not a surprise really. VxWorks the other big embedded OS opened it source a couple of years ago. This was not long after listening to the CEO of Vxworks telling us the vxworks source code was the crown jewels. Well some crown jewels that was.

The truth is all embedded OS have been forced to do this by the rise of linux in the embedded world. Also believe me the difference is huge when you have the source. Wierd behavior and unexplained bugs suddenly become transparent when you can dig into the source. In the end though it doesn't really hurt the vendor since you still pay them for support and development tools.

Cool ! A new Unix system in the open source family

A lot of systems are based on QNX, such as the new Cisco operating system, IOS-XR.
I'm happy to see a RTOS in the open source family !

Makes verification easier

When you have to certify a computer to "Design level" as in DO178-B. You need to have the source code for the OS to be able to prove certain characteristics. What this does is remove the negotiation of the cost for the source from the equation. Though this means the company that uses the product will have to certify the OS themselves.

Does anyone else use QNX?

My company has several dozen computers running QNX Windows 4.25 as the embedded OS under our control software. I have to work with it every single day. It's not pretty but it works. I don't know that the OS has ever actually failed. The hard drives and motherboards give out before the software. I personally think opensource on this is more of a win for the consumers, because the developers just don't care, any more.

I will also admit that all of our new systems run Windows XP Embedded. Yeah, I designed and built a better system. That was me.

Re:Under what licence?

Without knowing the license type, well could mean everything.

Isn't Java Opensource, too?

However for learning purposes it's still great news. QNX is quite something even people happen to know who can't really tell the difference between Linux and BSD...

I bet it isn't GPLv3 d'oh

Re:Is QNX dead?

It's dead in the sense that OS/2 and CP/M are dead.

Actually, I think it's dead in the sense that Solaris is dead, meaning that it ain't.

Re:Download page?

http://www.qnx.com/products/getmomentics/ [qnx.com]

Re:Download page?

svn checkout instructions, and source browsing instructions are here:

Re:Download page?

(2nd try.) The instructions for svn checkout of the qnx os source is here: http://community.qnx.com/sf/wiki/do/viewPage/projects.core_os/wiki/Os_source_guide [qnx.com]