Analog Revival Means Vinyl Will Outlive CD 800
An anonymous reader writes "In the age of the iPod, an unlikely revival is taking place — kids are turning to 7" vinyl to get their kicks. Sales of 7" singles are apparently through the roof. Bands like the White Stripes are releasing thousands of new singles on the format, and record purchases have risen by over a million units in the last year — back to 1998 levels. NME told CNET: "it's very possible that the CD might become obsolete in an age of download music but the vinyl record will survive,". The article explains how indie kids are drawn to vinyl because "the tactile joy of owning a physical object that represents your attachment to a band is infinitely more enjoyable than entering a credit card number into iTunes.""
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- CDs have a much, much higher dynamic range than vinyl. Compare CD's 90db or so to vinyl's 45db on a good turntable.
- CDs lack an infinitely variable volume level. At 16 bits of resolution, there are 65,536 possible volume levels (including silence), in distinct steps. Normally one would never notice, but the limitations of digital DO have a profound effect while processing. This is one of many reasons a studio will work with 24, 32, 48, or even more bits of resolution, even if eventually it will be downsampled to 16 bit audio. All of the processing/mixing will normally be done at a higher resolution. Incidentally, this is why many bands still record using analog equipment, and some even do all of their mixes on analog. AAD or ADD is almost invariably going to be better than DDD if you listen to music with a lot of texture and dynamic range.
- CDs have a hard limit for frequency response, with an immediate cutoff at 22050hz, whereas vinyl's frequency response extends past 25000hz with a very gradual rolloff. This should be taken into account by the recording or mastering engineer with the top end attenuated on a gradual slope. This problem used to be evident with very early CD pressings where the CD would sound "harsh" or "overly bright" compared to cassette or vinyl pressings, until the recording or mastering engineer rolled off the highs with a gradual curve. Of course, if you blasted your eardrums with headphones at 120db, you won't hear the difference anyhow because you probably can't hear much beyond 12000hz, plus it wouldn't be evident with most pop anyhow, mainly with classical, jazz, and progressive rock.
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Bah! Vinyl will never replace (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Bah! Vinyl will never replace (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Bah! Vinyl will never replace (Score:5, Funny)
That begs the question... (Score:3, Insightful)
I've not seen those for years...and actually would like to get one to at some point, transfer a lot of my vinyl only stuff to digital.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Bah! Vinyl will never replace (Score:5, Insightful)
Thinking about that again -- that's a stupid question. We have an Internet nowadays...
Re:Bah! Vinyl will never replace (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Bah! Vinyl will never replace (Score:4, Informative)
i have a cherished record collection of older mid to late 80's hardcore and punk that is in the process of being ripped... and well, since the darn things wouldn't fit into the CD player... i went out to my local best buy... and 10 minutes later (after aggressively rejecting the extended warranty) had a sony turntable.
Re:Bah! Vinyl will never replace (Score:5, Funny)
You fool! Now you'll get rootkits on your LPs!!!
The truly geeky way to play/record your vinyl: (Score:3, Interesting)
"It's the warmth of vinyl, man! It's got a richer tone!" -- Trent Lane, Daria, "That Was Then, This Is Dumb."
How is that any different... (Score:5, Insightful)
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i dont understand it either, but i know what they're talking about. the punk scene has had a fetish with vinyl since the beginning, and i dont understand why. but because certain albums are only released on vinyl, i had to get a turntable. and, i have to say, there is an inexplicable feeling that comes from the ownership of a vinyl record, rather than a cd.
it probably has something to do with an elitist attitude.
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Naturally you need a valve amp to plug your turntable into, and hand-wound speakers to make the sound.
Probably kills brain cells, too. (Score:4, Informative)
It's the smell.
(sniffs record) Sweet, sweet acetate...
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Its the visuals I get nostalgic for - the artwork on CD's feels really bleh after having grown up with nice big record sleeves to hold. For instance owning both formats of Led Zeppelin albums - I prefer looking at the album cover on the LP's but the CD's are what I'd play. Having said that I still love the artwork on my own bands CD [karmadillo.net] ;-)
My choice would be to have CD's delivered in LP sized cardboard album sleeves - mine all go into a big folder wallet anyway.
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Or some kind of toxic fumes coming off them?
Re:How is that any different... (Score:4, Insightful)
A larger package also permits the inclusion of more goodies. How many of you remember the old Alice Cooper album "School's Out" that looked like a school desk? In the first few printings, the sleeve hinged open to reveal a picture of pencils, erasers, etc. It also had fold-out legs, and the record itself had a pair of panties stretched over it.
You cannot get that kind of coolness from a CD and a jewel box.
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Re:How is that any different... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:How is that any different... (Score:4, Informative)
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This makes me think the record companies are behind this promotion of vinyl!
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Of course then they would outlaw cameras and scanners as "circumvention devices".
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I, for one, don't want vinyl. How the hell am I supposed to rip that to put on my computer and iPods?! Sampling? With all the resulting noise? No thanks!
Re:How is that any different... (Score:4, Insightful)
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When I was a teen, I collected vinyl mostly from Indie punk bands. I don't anymore, but I still have my collection. I was very surprised that my daughter (who is eleven going on twenty) is actually very into it and thinks those records are much cooler than CDs.
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Re:Can't scratch them? Are you insane? (Score:4, Funny)
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1) Because you don't have to buy the whole album
2) It is cheaper
3) You put the needle on the record yourself (try that with a cd)
4) You can watch the record spin (possible with some cd turntables, but not most players)
5) Profit!
Re:How is that any different... (Score:5, Insightful)
Passionate music lovers do enjoy having a physical object that represents a link between them and the band they love. More than that there is a massive amount of street cred in owning and listening to vinyl, it's just cool. Also, a great many people feel that Vinyl just sounds better than CD. Finally, people enjoy the size of the cover art. Cover art died with the CD, a great many people believe that. The revival of Vinyl means the potential of new and great cover art.
Buying vinyl is massively different from buying a CD.
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That creates such wierd images in my head. An almost Python like sketch of DJs wandering around the town centre in funny hats and floppy tops with a 12inch box in one hand and a portable record deck in the other, pubs full of people drinking a pint with one hand and scratching with the other (with a record, not scratching their bodies), looking at old books of Victorians grinning maniacally over a pair of wax cyclinder mixing two music hall hits together. You
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The only way these statements could have less credibility is if they mentioned dilithium crystals. I'm a very passionate music lover. That means I love the *music*, not psycho-babble about physical attachments or "having street cred".
Seriously, if concerns over "Street cred" ever enter
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Ever heard of "shared culture"?
Maybe for you, the concept of "music" begins and ends with the actual audio itself. But to a lot of other people it also includes
Re:How is that any different... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:How is that any different... (Score:5, Informative)
ps: yes, i am blazed right now, thanks for asking
If it's not a law, it should be (Score:4, Insightful)
Easy.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Even better, you release "blanks" EPROMs that can be burned once (or maybe twice - in case of an error) to integrate with all the online purchasing. (print the label too)
ROM cartridges would defy the point (Score:2)
You release albums as individual cartridges for portable players
Replacing the flash memory in portable hardware MP3 players with tangible ROM cartridges containing albums is about as convenient as using a MiniDisc player. It takes away the sole advantage of these MP3 players in the first place - the promise of letting you take your whole CD collection (not to mention a fair few audiobooks, games, TV shows and films) with you wherever you go. If you had to bring a few dozen cartridges with your player, y
Late 90s, albums on MMC (Score:3, Interesting)
Back in the heady days of the late 1990s, I had one of the first MP3 players among my group of friends. It was a thing called the Pontis MPlayer3 [macnn.com], and used MultiMediaCards for storage.
The two advertised methods for acquiring music were either ripping it on your computer and downloading it to the device (via a serial port -- oh, the pain), or buying albums on pre-flashed, read-only MultiMediaCards. I never saw any in stores, and the format seems to have gone the way of the dodo now, but at
Is 1998 anything to brag about? (Score:5, Funny)
5,500 copies must look big these days (Score:2)
5,500 seems pretty tiny in the grand scheme of things. It must be that CD sales are so low that just a handful of singles can make a difference. Everyone else is just downloading the songs from their favorite torrent site and putting it on their iPod.
Will only collectors buy music in the future?
Trendiness (Score:2)
Re:Trendiness (Score:5, Insightful)
The Return of REAL Cover Art (Score:5, Insightful)
If vinyl makes a comeback, I hope new talent following the footsteop of Roger Dean take up this opportunity.
Re:The Return of REAL Cover Art (Score:4, Interesting)
Unfortunately I think their music has been on a steady decline for some time now.
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Except the article was about 7" singles, which traditionally came in plain paper sleeves
DRM (Score:2)
So when will DRM-infected phonographs be released, to thwart all those filthy vinyl-ripping pirate scum? It's darned well impossible to burn a BOOT.INI file on those discs, and the macrovision-style distortion versions just don't seem to sell to anyone who looks sober.
Oh, and where do you get those little three-legged plastic adapters that convert a vinyl single spindle to a vinyl long-play spindle? Talk about your analog hole!
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More the death knell of digital physical media (Score:2)
Since this is from a UK news source, let's just assume they have it in for the iPod. UK publications do, admit it. Whenever I open the Guardian / Times / Telegraph / etc I see yet another PR-planted story about the downfall of the iPod and iTunes.
It seems to me that the return to records really reflects the lack of excitement of redbook audio CDs as well as the onslaught of silly new disc-based media.
I **think** I've gone through something similar with my photography. I was there at the start of the dig
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It seems to me that the return to records really reflects the lack of excitement of redbook audio CDs as well as the onslaught of silly new disc-based media.
It is possible people are harking back to the olden days when music they bought would actually play on their hi-fi. Redbook CDs are also flawless in this respect, but I suspect the average person on the street doesn't realise that DRM encumbered CDs aren't actually real CDs at all, and therefore the redbook CD format isn't actually to blame at all.
Wow (Score:2)
-matthew
Analog[u][e] (Score:3, Insightful)
This has already happened (Score:5, Insightful)
Back to 1998 Levels! (Score:2)
i only buy Vinyl or used CD (Score:2)
Used vinyl? Ew. (Score:2)
That seems like buying somebody's used underwear or something. It's a consumable product. Any given record can only be played a certain number of times before it's worn out. Each time you put the stylus through the groove, it destroys a little of the information that's there.
With a CD, it either plays or it doesn't. Provided that there aren't any scratches or fingerprints or other problems with the disc, the 1,000th play will sound exactly the same as the first.
It makes sense to me (Score:2, Interesting)
Their opinions... (Score:5, Insightful)
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WTF is an "indie kid?" (Score:2, Informative)
7-inches of Pure Joy (Score:2)
Couldn't have said it much better myself.
Copyright worries? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's also nice to hear that the indy crowd is growing in force. It is about the only way, shy of legislation, to put the power back into the hands of the artists.
Hooray for vinyl! (Score:2)
Really? (Score:2)
Well, let me just bust out the Motorola and install it in my new car... or how about I install a record player on my PC so I can load the new EQ2 expansion pack?
What is missing, from a mostly technical aspect, is that CDs have the advantage of being a larger "platform" simply because of it's versatility in the types of data it can contain and the number of different gadgets that will play CDs. Not even to mention that I can c
Quite common in the hardcore/punk scene (Score:2)
Local distros sell 7" singles for about 3 to 4 euros and full records for 9.
A 7" has about 5 to 6 songs on it. Not only is this cheaper than Itunes, i also get to OWN my music + artwork, lyrics or coloured vynil presses.
It's alot more bang for buck and I really enjoy taking some occaisional time off to sit down, put on a record and listen to some sweet tunes.
Wait a sec.... (Score:3, Funny)
Oh... um... wait... I just got a memo from the RIAA, they say that they had dinner with "Music" last night and after a few drinks Music agreed that it would much rather simply be rented.
Can we put something in vynil records that will make them dissolve after 30 or 60 days?
The Ritual of Vinyl (Score:2)
There's this whole process of "playing a record" that simply doesn't happen when playing a digital file. There's the special way of opening the cover and sliding the platter out into trained fingers that touch only the edges of the disk, the optional puff of air to dislodge any dust from the surface and the trained flip or two to choose a side before carefully placing a tiny diamond in the first groove to release the sound.
A record, too, has a limited nu
long live the 7" (Score:5, Interesting)
Something to consider... (Score:5, Informative)
Something to consider: Vinyl can be read by archeologists; by looking at the groove under a microscope, they can infer that it's sound. CDs use a complex error correction algorithm that will take years to reverse engineer, and decoding an MP3 off of a hard drive will be even more difficult.
For more information, I've written an extensive study of the merits and drawbacks of vinyl: http://www.andrewrondeau.com/Writings/My%20Love-Ha te%20Relationship%20With%20Vinyl%20-%20Or%20-%20Wh y%20We%20Should%20Keep%20Making%20Vinyl.html [andrewrondeau.com]
From my article about its limits:
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Re:Bell bottom jeans are back! (Score:5, Informative)
But vinyl won't die and with the latest download sites, independant labels have found a happy medium of producing less vinyl and offering their tracks online. Many labels are vinyl purists and haven't yet entered the digital realm. Some label owners whom I've talked with have had increased profits but most said it stays about the same margin-wise without as much overhead.
Re:Bell bottom jeans are back! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bell bottom jeans are back! (Score:5, Insightful)
mod parent up!
saying vinyl is 'dead' is like saying apple is 'dead'. just because it has a smaller market share limited to fanatics and afficianadoes instead of the top-40 masses doesn't mean vinyl ever went anywhere.
here's news for all you computer geeks: there are music geeks too, and they think pretty much the same way. just think of 7" records as the audiophile version of the command line.
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just my $0.02.
Over-romanticised rubbish. (Score:5, Informative)
- Modern day vinyl quality is *abysmal*. thin and cheap.
- Trying to fit a modern-day album onto vinyl drastically compresses the grooves. Albums aren't 35 minutes anymore, they're commonly 40-50 minutes.
- Vinyl can't replicate certain sounds. Try an out-of-phase bass signal across both channels, the needle would pop out of the groove.
- Think vinyl has a more "natural" sound? Then you're wilfully ignorant of the drastic equalisation mashing that is necessary to embed music on a record - the bottom end has to be all but removed, which the player then puts back in. Think any player gets it right? Or indeed the same as any other player?
There are many reasons to like vinyl, sound quality is not one of them.
Re:Over-romanticised rubbish. (Score:5, Interesting)
Additionally, over the last 15 years, longer albums will be released as double LPs, rather than trying to stretch longer albums into an LP format.
Bad bass? I'm not a huge vinyl fan, but sometimes it's cheaper than the CDs, so when I used to buy albums (instead of just downloading the bittorrents) I would opt for the LP instead. I thought the bass was fine. I'd compare it against the CDs, it sounded approximately the same. I hear what you're saying with bass making the needle jump, but that problem was pretty much fixed around 1965. I can't help but suspect you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Digital is superior for storage. Analog is superior f
Re:Vinyl was already immortal... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Vinyl was already immortal... (Score:5, Insightful)
Urggggh... (Score:4, Interesting)
If you have audio equipment that cost more than $3000 (purchased in the last 5 years), AND you know how to balance your mm/mc arm, and you go to classical (perhaps Jazz) concerts so you know what the music sounds like, you can ignore this post.
Boring details below.
It is true that as a medium, a LP record (or even a 45) inherently has truer fidelity than a CD. However this means that the records have a truer version of the music than the CD. (Some qualifications, assumes that the origional recording is done in analogue, or at a higher sampling bitrate than a CD. Decent transfer process, etc...)
To go from "Records are better recordings of music than CDs" to "Vinyl has better audio Quality" in the sense of the statement made: (e.g. it sounds better) is a bit of a leap. This leap requires High Fidelity equipment.
High Fidelity Equipment means 1) Good Audio Equipment (Speakers & Amplifier), 1a) Including good isolation for the record player (vibration: Bad), 2) A Good record Player, 2b)A good Mic and (unworn) needle, 2c) Correct wieghting for the playback arm for the needle; 3) An unworn / undamaged record. Some people have this equipment (not many), and the ability to set it up (pay to have it setup) correctly. Most people do not have this equipment.
For example: You will *may* hear better sound from a $250+ Amp with $400+ Speakers and a $250 Turntable/mic. (I'm assuming that amps have gotten much better than they used to be. In any case, you will need a minimum of $1000 in sterio equipment to hear an difference from Vinyl to CD. (True, and fake, audiophiles will say I'm wrong: it costs more.)
The USB Record Player I have seen was about $90. This means you can play records, not in High Fidelity. You need to have High Fidelity to hear the difference between a CD and a Record. Using your computer to play music pretty much rules you out. And what the hell, Ipods have a tactile feel too.
So effectively, the origional post is wrong. Records have the same crap sound as CDs, in most cases. If you can hear the difference between a Record and a CD, probabily your record is damaged or your needle is. Either that or you have a ground loop on your mm/mc that you think sounds nice.
Bite me: I'm Jealous because I used to have a music system where I could hear the difference between a good LP and a good CD (Say DSOTM), now I don't
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The problem with blind tests is that they are done with music people aren't familar with. Take a group of audiophiles and their favorite track and then perform the test, and they'll get it every time.
So does vinyl sound better? Well, better, worse, whatever, are opinions. But here is a fact: A well mastered vinyl pressing will ALWAYS have MORE of the
Baloney (Score:5, Informative)
First of all, it's time to stop confusing a CD recording with a compressed, encoded recording. Compressing to too low a bit rate and/or with a poor algorithm will of course degrade sound quality. However, let's stick with the CD, since, like a vinyl album, it's also a physical object that one can own if one wants to.
A properly recorded CD can accurately reproduce the entire audible frequency range, from 20Hz to 20KHz with a completely flat response and with distortion that is far below detectability. No frequencies in this range are lost
On the other hand, the analog signal for a vinyl record goes through an intentional frequency and dynamic range distortion (i.e. intention dynamic range flattening to fit the capabilities of the medium, followed by an "undoing" of this process upon playback). The actual vinyl stampings are made from an original master, introducing further distortion. The stampings have an inherently higher noise floor compared with 16-bit/44.1KHz digital recordings and, in addition, are subject to artifacts from any dust or defects that might be present in the grooves. The grooves degrade further with each playing, too. Plus, there's the issue of wow and flutter from difficulty in controlling the rotation of the platter accurately.
Any preference for vinyl stems strictly from either comparing a poor CD recording to a great vinyl one, to preconceived notions that influence opinion, to nostalgia or to an actual preference for the types of distortion that vinyl produces. In the latter case, the vinyl sound can be completely simulated by intentionally applying the same distortions to CD output. As one poster mentioned, you could play back the signal from a vinyl album being played on a quality, high-end turntable and record it digitally onto a CD. The result would replicate all the effects that the vinyl lover formerly attributed to some superiority in the medium.
Here's an excerpt from the recording submission instructions of a commercial vinyl album-cutting facility that can be found online:
"As such, cutting a loud dynamic record presents many challenges not typical to the conventional recording and mixing process. Trutone's mastering engineers enjoy decades of experience specific to the analog format. This expertise facilitated by their use of our classic, vintage analog tube compressors, limiters and equalizers, afford our engineers the ability to provide all final EQ and level adjustments as your music is being transferred to the analog master. The result? A rich warm sound that transcends the digital phenomena, indicative of why vinyl remains the medium of choice for promoting and marketing music."
It's amazing that they make this last statement given that they practically tell you why and how they get this sound
David
Re:Baloney (Score:4, Informative)
Vinyl sounds "warmer" because vinyl DOES distort the sound. It is extremely imperfect, and those imperfections lend a certain quality to the reproduced sound that is common to vinyl but absent both from the original sound, and from the sound reproduced by CDs.
Digital sampling is capable of preserving 100% of the information, provided your sampling rate is double the maximum frequency you want to capture, and your analog sound source and speakers are of sufficiently high quality. (The latter problem is common to vinyl as well.) If you don't believe this, please don't make the mistake of assuming your anecdotes trump science. Take an introductory course in DSP and learn what it is doing.
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Speaking of a double blind test, do one. Let me know how it goes. There is not a SINGLE scientific, peer-reviewed study that says humans can discern CD "distortions". Show me a single study that says ANY human can discern a sound from vinyl and a CD recording of that vinyl.
You experience means nothing. People will believe in all kinds of fantastical things that are not true. If it is so obvious, show me a test result.
Re:Baloney (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, that's the whole point isn't it? What you BELIEVE is not necessarily true.
It makes perfect sense...
A lot of things makes perfect sense when you first hear it; world is flat, intelligent design, psychic abilities, etc... Just because it makes "sense" does not make it so. Otherwise, you would be able to demonstrate it in a repeatable test.
Waving your data around isn't going to change anyone's opinion,
If you ignore facts when it does not fit your "reality", then that is really YOUR problem, not his.
Not so fast (Score:3, Interesting)
So basically you're proposing to eliminate the whole "blind" out of "double blind". Let's bring back the Emperor's New Clothes phenomenon, shall we?
Unfortunately, the "blind" part is there for a very good reason, which again basically boils down to the Emperor's New Clothes. If you get people thinking they're s
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Agreed. I became really interested in music in the 1970s, when vinyl was king, and well remember how horrid the things were. You had to store them just so to avoid warping (more of a problem with albums than singles, though), even though most of them were warped when purchased anyway; good record decks had stroboscopes and arms with little weights and dampers hanging off them at weird angles, all of which had to