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Microsoft and the U.S. School System

Posted by michael on Tue Jul 10, 2001 07:42 AM
from the give-us-your-lunch-money dept.
4/3PI*R^3 has the dubious honor of being the first of dozens of submissions: "Salon has a story on how Microsoft is bullying cash strapped school districts into purchasing "compliant" licenses for Microsoft software. Best quote from the story concerning financial problems of education and the added burden that Microsft is placing on them: "It's kind of like AIDS in Africa and the drug companies," Kowalski says. "Can anyone expect a dying person to be concerned about the drug companies' profits?"" It seems silly to bitch about this - work at getting schools to use Free and free software instead.
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  • So you think average user could install windows? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:45AM
  • Please by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @03:59AM
  • Use of non-ms software in schools by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:49AM
  • Re:Elementary and Jr. High... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:12AM
  • Hey you troll.... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:36AM
  • Re:Application Software by SuperQ (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:05AM
  • Re:good idea, by SuperQ (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:54AM
  • Re:effect is not immediately obvious by Have Blue (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:14AM
  • Re:PR Head by Eccles (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:27AM
  • Re:PR Head by Eccles (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:25AM
  • Re:PR Head by Eccles (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:27AM
  • Re:Good Analogy by ksheff (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:19AM
  • Re:Good Analogy by ksheff (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @01:54PM
  • Ignorance is scary by Nexus7 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:26AM
  • NRA gibberish by Nexus7 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:30AM
  • Re:Education is education by richieb (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:24AM
  • Re:Education is education by richieb (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:23AM
  • Re:Application Software by richieb (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:32AM
  • Re:Useless... by Exocet (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:00AM
  • More false statements by Loundry (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:29AM
  • Re:It IS silly by Walter (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:03AM
  • K-12Linux Project by Rasputin (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:15AM
  • Unpopular Opinion by skroz (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:10AM
  • Be Afraid ... Very Afraid by looie (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:14AM
  • Re:Good Analogy by IntlHarvester (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:30AM
  • Programming languages by Requiem (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:32AM
  • Re:It IS silly by Dionysus (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:07AM
  • Re:Useless... by um... Lucas (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:26AM
  • Useless... by um... Lucas (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:02AM
  • Re:Education is education by ethereal (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:50AM
  • Re:Math change: Only for serious academics? by swb (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:41AM
  • Re:Math change: Only for serious academics? by swb (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:59AM
  • Re:Linux in education by Zico (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @02:12PM
  • Linux in education... by Vapula (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:07AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by Amanset (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:33AM
  • Re:It IS silly by billg@microsoft.com (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:59AM
  • If there ever was a reason. . . by Salgak1 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:01AM
  • Copyright Not Valid for Educational Purposes by sabat (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:59AM
  • Puttin' the fear of Bill in them by Smallest (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:48AM
  • Re:Why application software? by bcaulf (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:23PM
  • Re:Math change: Only for serious academics? by bcaulf (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:11PM
  • Re:Teachers are not the problem by Flower (Score:1) Thursday July 12 2001, @06:22AM
  • Re:Teachers are not the problem by Flower (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:34PM
  • Re:It IS silly by Iguanaphobic (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:00AM
  • Re:Application Software by deacent (Score:1) Wednesday July 11 2001, @07:39AM
  • Re:Useless... by deacent (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:47AM
  • Re:Application Software by deacent (Score:1) Wednesday July 11 2001, @05:26PM
  • Re:schools and computers... by jmauro (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:36AM
  • Re:Hey you troll.... by itachi (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:06PM
  • Re:Don't Stalinize Microsoft by itachi (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:32PM
  • Re:Bad Analogy by itachi (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:44AM
  • Re:Funny... by Confused (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:05AM
  • Re:Application Software by chill (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:01AM
  • Re:Application Software by chill (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:09AM
  • Re:Equally Silly, though... by brianvan (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @03:45PM
  • Re:Useless... by mfarver (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:53AM
  • Amen! by _Quinn (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @03:59AM
  • Re:Free viewers for most M$ products by Torg (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:03AM
  • Re:The solution I've used by guarache (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:42AM
  • Yes. Word has a terribly steep learning curve. by oggodog (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:31AM
  • disease by dostick (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:01AM
  • Re:Microsoft and the BSA "agents" by alteran (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:01PM
  • Yeah! And let schools steal food, too! by gadders (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:56AM
  • 19.8 million for 132 copies of MS-DOS?!? by bardop (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:34AM
  • PDF is wrong too - use HTML by billstewart (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:31AM
  • Re:Ahem by Miles (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:28AM
  • When is a * 150,000% * penalty appropriate? by geekotourist (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @02:07PM
  • Re:Microsoft is right (gasp!) by AntiBasic (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:58PM
  • Microsoft is right (gasp!) by AntiBasic (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:24AM
  • Re:Microsoft is right (gasp!) by AntiBasic (Score:1) Wednesday July 11 2001, @04:56PM
  • Re:Microsoft is right (gasp!) by AntiBasic (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:54PM
  • Using free software by graniteMonkey (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:09AM
  • Re:PR Head by Observer (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:02AM
  • Re:PR Head by Observer (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:20AM
  • Re:Useless... by gordzilla (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:42AM
  • ..."girl magnet" ? by erinlee (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:28PM
  • Re:Programming languages by Autonomous Cow (Score:1) Thursday July 12 2001, @03:49PM
  • Re:The School's Problem by Autonomous Cow (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:59AM
  • Re:Does anyone actually read the entire article? by clearcache (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:02AM
  • Re:Fair Use by dead sun (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:30AM
  • Re:HAHAHAHAHAHAH.... by festers (Score:1) Wednesday July 11 2001, @10:48AM
  • they should pay for licenses, but... by quick_dry_3 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:09AM
  • Re:Noticing something... by MrTaz65 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:06AM
  • To bad Microsoft is right by Ghoser777 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:32AM
  • Re:Funny... by KingAdrock (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:29AM
  • Why not StarOffice? by jea6 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:28AM
  • Open source textbooks, software, EVERYthing by Catbeller (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:35AM
  • Re:Microsoft is right (gasp!) by Catbeller (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:55AM
  • Re:Open source textbooks, software, EVERYthing by Catbeller (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:19PM
  • Re:It IS silly by demaria (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:23AM
  • Re:It IS silly by demaria (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:29AM
  • Re:A solution: Linux for Schools: K-12LTSP v1.0 by Lord Omlette (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:10AM
  • Works of the US government are public domain by yerricde (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:03AM
  • RIAA MPAA DMCA BONO by yerricde (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:13AM
  • But can it run Reader Rabbit? by yerricde (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:09AM
  • Where to get the free Office doc viewers by yerricde (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:27AM
  • Re:Reality Check: "Cash Strapped" Schools by Mr.Phil (Score:1) Wednesday July 11 2001, @05:30AM
  • Free software is needed badly in schools by Adler (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:33AM
  • Re:Can MS write off "piracy" related losses? by DerFeuervogel (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:44AM
  • Re:Can MS write off "piracy" related losses? by DerFeuervogel (Score:1) Wednesday July 11 2001, @08:29AM
  • Re:This is the worst Idea I've ever heard... by kitmarlowe (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:14AM
  • Re:This whole thing is sillyness. by bradmajors69 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @02:42PM
  • ha ha they makea me laugh by sparkane (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:31AM
  • It is worth bitching about. by RESPAWN (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:45AM
  • Re:US Ph.D's by RESPAWN (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:21AM
  • Re:US Ph.D's by RESPAWN (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:54AM
  • Re:It is worth bitching about. by RESPAWN (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:19AM
  • Re:It IS silly by dash2 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:12AM
  • I feel a Pink Floyd song coming up... by HiQ (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:33AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by awb131 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:54AM
  • Re:It IS silly by been42 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:43AM
  • Re:It IS silly by jayhawk88 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:53AM
  • Here's the best solution by ganiman (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:44AM
  • Fight MS the right way by skuenzli (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:24AM
  • Re:Fight MS the right way by skuenzli (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:40PM
  • Re:schools and computers... by Feynman (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:13AM
  • Microsoft cracks down by vmxeo (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @01:04PM
  • Article a little biased against M$ by tshak (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:25AM
  • This whole thing is sillyness. by Legolas-Greenleaf (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:05AM
  • Re:Don't Stalinize Microsoft by CaptainZapp (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:43AM
  • Re:RIAA MPAA DMCA BONO by CaptainZapp (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:47AM
  • History repeated? by CaptainZapp (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:35AM
  • Bully 'em right back by derPlau (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:25AM
  • Re:A solution: Linux for Schools: K-12LTSP v1.0 by hyperstation (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:37AM
  • Re:Education is education by glumchum (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:56AM
  • Re:The REAL Reason People use Microsoft by LMCBoy (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:02AM
  • Re:Intellectual Property Deserves to be Respected. by Caraig (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:28AM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:03AM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:08AM
  • Re:NRA gibberish by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:42AM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:49AM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:55AM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:45AM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:07AM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:53AM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:34AM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:01AM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:23AM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:20AM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:50AM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:59AM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @03:21PM
  • Re:PR Head by Fredge (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:35AM
  • Nice, real nice by WildBeast (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:45AM
  • Re:Report Your School!!! by WildBeast (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:23AM
  • This is the problem with America by theviper007 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:20AM
  • Re:Useless... by GlassUser (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:51AM
  • good thing? by jonnystiph (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:32AM
  • Don't things like this... by Munelight (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:07AM
  • Re:Bad Analogy by ThomK (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @03:58AM
  • Re:good idea, by elefantstn (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:12AM
  • Re:good idea, by ilsa (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:02AM
  • Article irrelevant. OSS is already beginning. by Cliffton Watermore (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:40AM
  • Re:What is wrong with that? by MeNeXT (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:10PM
  • Perfectly Applicable by Quila (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:03AM
  • effect is not immediately obvious by maddogsparky (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:27AM
  • Elementary and Jr. High... by maddogsparky (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:33AM
  • Re:PR Head by Jaysyn (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:51AM
  • Re:Useless... by Jaysyn (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:27AM
  • Applications by Root Down (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:40AM
  • Re:US Ph.D's by CoreyG (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:23AM
  • You'd think it was a crime.... by Richard5mith (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:07AM
  • Re:Can MS write off "piracy" related losses? by evocate (Score:1) Wednesday July 11 2001, @10:27AM
  • Re:Can MS write off "piracy" related losses? by evocate (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:05AM
  • Re:Can MS write off "piracy" related losses? by evocate (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @03:01PM
  • Re:NRA gibberish by madrone (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @01:41PM
  • another analogy by layyze (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @03:58AM
  • Re:Application Software by praedor (Score:1) Wednesday July 11 2001, @08:42AM
  • Re:Application Software by praedor (Score:1) Thursday July 12 2001, @09:37AM
  • Re:Application Software by praedor (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:32PM
  • get your fat ass of the floor and help the schools by step.ee (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:34AM
  • Re:the reason Mac . . . by ahfoo (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:12PM
  • Re:the reason Mac . . . by ahfoo (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:16PM
  • the reason Mac . . . by ahfoo (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:59AM
  • Re:It IS silly by benogod (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:31AM
  • Maybe That's Why... by tmjva (Score:1) Wednesday July 11 2001, @07:04AM
  • Re:Making copies because you are underfunded by mother_superius (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:18PM
  • Re:Education is education by unicaller (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:28AM
  • Re:It IS silly by nowt (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:06AM
  • Re:It IS silly by nowt (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:16AM
  • Re:Making copies because you are underfunded by (H)elix1 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @01:45PM
  • Re:US Ph.D's by hysterion (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:22PM
  • Re:Application Software by opkool (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:19AM
  • Re:This whole thing is sillyness. by Melantha_Bacchae (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:40AM
  • Re:It IS silly by nanoakron (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:03AM
  • Re:PR Head by nanoakron (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:06AM
  • Re:PR Head by nanoakron (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:15AM
  • Re:It IS silly by ClosedSource (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:16AM
  • Re:It IS silly by ClosedSource (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:36AM
  • Re:Application Software by frleong (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:44AM
  • Re:Better watch out... by DankNinja (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:25AM
  • Harvard Should Sue Microsoft by tekrat (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:55AM
  • Re:This whole thing is sillyness. by andrewhy (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:40AM
  • Isn't it time for everyone to grow up? by WindowsTroll (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:31AM
  • Re:Free viewers for most M$ products by Interrupting Cow (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:54AM
  • Re:PR Head by davechen (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:50AM
  • Open Source in Public Schools by Tiresias_Mons (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:22AM
  • Re:US Ph.D's by daniel_isaacs (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:25AM
  • Star Wars reference... by Zocalo (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:10AM
  • Re:It is their right by blamanj (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:11AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by punchdrunk (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:23AM
  • Office Tools on the Web - page not found by Quietti (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:27AM
  • provide the URL to them! by Quietti (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:17AM
  • Re:Free viewers for most M$ products by somethingwicked (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:18AM
  • Re:In other news... by somethingwicked (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:26AM
  • In other news... by somethingwicked (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:13AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by somethingwicked (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:17AM
  • Free viewers for most M$ products by somethingwicked (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:23AM
  • Fair Use by dvoosten (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:34AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by pdiaz (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:09AM
  • Re:In other news... by wimmi (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:25AM
  • Serious question by nanojath (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:41AM
  • Re:US Ph.D's by GuyFromAccounting (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:49AM
  • financing a Ph.D by GuyFromAccounting (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:57AM
  • Alternatives to Office for reading a memo by parl (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:37PM
  • Look at the main problem. by Martigan80 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:31AM
  • Re:Ahem by Guil Rarey (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:35AM
  • The Difference Between by phantumstranger (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:08AM
  • Let's focus on the job before us. by kanayo (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:31AM
  • A Challenge by rkrishnam_can (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:19AM
  • This is the worst Idea I've ever heard... by Win-Developer (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:31AM
  • A good direction to take by Claric (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:29AM
  • Re:effect is not immediately obvious by slcdb (Score:1) Tuesday July 24 2001, @06:38PM
  • Re:Good Analogy by slcdb (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:59AM
  • Re:It IS silly by sofar (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:17AM
  • Re:It IS silly by szomb (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:42AM
  • Re:good point, by szomb (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:06AM
  • Typical... by why-is-it (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:44AM
  • An AP Computer Science Teacher's Point of View.. by Sparky9292 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:34AM
  • From a school by dannyweb (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:01AM
  • Re:It IS silly by OSgod (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:11AM
  • Open source solutions are available... K12LTSP by pnelson (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:13AM
  • Linux at school by crazyprogrammer (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:42AM
  • Re:It IS silly by Olinator (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:00AM
  • Re:Unless... by jeffehobbs (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:51AM
  • Re:Application Software by brasey (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:18AM
  • Re:US Ph.D's by haruharaharu (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:10AM
  • Re:Bad Analogy by tarlong (Score:1) Friday July 20 2001, @09:58PM
  • Re:PR Head by chemical55 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:29AM
  • Re:PR Head by chemical55 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:57AM
  • Re:Report Your School!!! by lcypher (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:13AM
  • Re:Intellectual Property Deserves to be Respected. by jdavidb (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:03AM
  • Re:Intellectual Property Deserves to be Respected. by jdavidb (Score:1) Tuesday July 24 2001, @07:42PM
  • Re:schools and computers... by sgups (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:40AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by sgups (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:09AM
  • Imagine that by AtariAmarok (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:39AM
  • Re:It IS silly by pjgunst (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:50AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by night_flyer (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:51AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by night_flyer (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:22AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by night_flyer (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:27AM
  • Open source in schools by mrcherba (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:01AM
  • Make a pact with the Devil by DriveByTroller (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:34AM
  • Re:disease by Zen Mastuh (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:05AM
  • Re:Funny... by ThePilgrim (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:04AM
  • Re:Public Schools and Free Software by ThePilgrim (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:43AM
  • Re:PR Head by ThePilgrim (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:55AM
  • Re:Application Software by ThePilgrim (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:07AM
  • Re:Application Software by ThePilgrim (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:31AM
  • Re:PR Head by ThePilgrim (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:23AM
  • Re:???? by Saint Fnordius (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:18AM
  • Is that really good? by Saint Fnordius (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:34AM
  • Oi oi! by Purple_Walrus (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:16AM
  • How come they could afford the hardware? by codeforprofit2 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:48AM
  • Re:Open source textbooks, software, EVERYthing by codeforprofit2 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:52AM
  • Re:What is wrong with that? by codeforprofit2 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:59AM
  • Microsofts fault? by codeforprofit2 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:06AM
  • Re:Good Analogy by codeforprofit2 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:37PM
  • Re:Fight MS the right way by codeforprofit2 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:12AM
  • Not True ! by NinjaWorm (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:44AM
  • Remember Word Perfect? Linux can rule this way. by NinjaWorm (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:04AM
  • I agree ! by NinjaWorm (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:54AM
  • Switch to Lnux by NinjaWorm (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:58AM
  • Re:PR Head by withak53 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:06AM
  • Re:PR Head by withak53 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:20AM
  • Why do we let the Private Sector Audit the Public? by Thomas M Hughes (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:29AM
  • Re:Useless... by LatJoor (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:08AM
  • Why don't techies just become K-12 teachers? by LatJoor (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:24AM
  • Re:Application Software by atif_ghaffar (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:33AM
  • The REAL Reason People use Microsoft by Gabriev (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:31AM
  • Re:EVIL!!! by qarzayba (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:18AM
  • Sometimes computers are useless by qarzayba (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:54AM
  • PR Head by jobugeek (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @03:59AM
  • Re:Application Software by boris67 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:52AM
  • Re:Fight MS the right way by q-soe (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @01:55PM
  • Re:provide the URL to them! by Unknown18 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:46AM
  • Lets try this again. by Unknown18 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:49AM
  • Re:provide the URL to them! by Unknown18 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:52AM
  • Re:Free software would probably cost much more by stantron77 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @01:44PM
  • Re:Schools have too much money by Maverick4 (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:13AM
  • Re:This whole thing is sillyness. by mary_will_grow (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:39AM
  • Re:Equally Silly, though... by Free Heel Skier (Score:1) Tuesday July 10 2001, @01:17PM
  • Re:schools and computers... by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:11AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by jandrese (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:16AM
  • Anonymous Tip? by Indomitus (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:44AM
  • Re:It is worth bitching about. by Chris Johnson (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:05AM
  • I hate MS too, but they are right in this case. by DunbarTheInept (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @01:51PM
  • An eye for an eye? by jabbo (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:32AM
  • Free Software by Wyatt Earp (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:06AM
  • Re:Free Software by Wyatt Earp (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:26PM
  • Re:Application Software by Wyatt Earp (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:26AM
  • Noticing something... by Craig Maloney (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:01AM
  • Re:US Ph.D's by hawk (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:53AM
  • Re:US Ph.D's by hawk (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:48AM
  • Re:US Ph.D's by hawk (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:59AM
  • way, way, off by hawk (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:44AM
  • Re:Education is education by hawk (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:15AM
  • Re:Education is education by hawk (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:28AM
  • philanthropy by Mickey Jameson (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:52AM
  • Re:PR Head by johnnyb (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:57AM
  • Re:Math change: Only for serious academics? by johnnyb (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:04AM
  • Re:US Ph.D's by johnnyb (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:11AM
  • Re:This is the worst Idea I've ever heard... by johnnyb (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:16AM
  • Re:Ahem by johnnyb (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:14AM
  • Re:Don't things like this... by johnnyb (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:22AM
  • Re:WINE? by johnnyb (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:27AM
  • Re:Fair Use *per* *copy* by johnnyb (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:34AM
  • Re:It IS silly by unitron (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:04AM
  • Re:Microsoft, what a dumb move. by acroyear (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:30AM
  • Make a difference - volunteer your skills by KlomDark (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:52AM
  • Evolution in inaction? by leonbrooks (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:43PM
  • Re:Useless... by Goonie (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:21AM
  • Re:Does anyone actually read the entire article? by banky (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:46AM
  • Can MS write off "piracy" related losses? by VValdo (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:18AM
  • Re:Why Linux Projects Fail by TrentC (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:58AM
  • A plethora of PDF readers under GNU/Linux & *BSD by FreeUser (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:48AM
  • The School's Problem by Lumpy (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:32AM
  • Re:Public Schools and Free Software by gorgon (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:46AM
  • Re:the reason Mac . . . by ethereal (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:26AM
  • School stopped being about education by swb (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:49AM
  • Math change: Only for serious academics? by swb (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:34AM
  • Re:Math change: Only for serious academics? by sethg (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:55AM
  • I have very little sympathy for the teachers... by sethg (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:37AM
  • How Microsoft will fall.. by sterno (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:16AM
  • Why application software? by wirefarm (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:47AM
  • Re:Actually, it is their privelege, not their "rig by Arandir (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:35AM
  • Re:It is their right by Arandir (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:41AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by Black Parrot (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:12AM
  • Re:US Ph.D's by Sir Banana (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:55AM
  • Re:This whole thing is sillyness. by lsdino (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:13AM
  • Re:There is no monopoly situation by GauteL (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:22AM
  • Windows is not necessarily the way... by Jeckle (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:22AM
  • Re:Application Software by deacent (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:55AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by jmauro (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:19AM
  • For once, Microsoft is right by Confused (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:49AM
  • Re:Application Software by chill (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:50AM
  • Re:Bad Analogy by bridgette (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @01:19PM
  • Re:It IS silly by bridgette (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @01:45PM
  • Re:Free Software by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:24AM
  • Re:Noticing something... by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:30AM
  • Re:Are you kidding? by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:42AM
  • Re:How Microsoft will fall.. by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:49AM
  • Re:If there ever was a reason. . . by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:55AM
  • Re:Copyright Not Valid for Educational Purposes by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:14PM
  • Re:It IS silly by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:29AM
  • Re:How come they could afford the hardware? by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:21PM
  • Re:It IS silly by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:36AM
  • Re:It IS silly by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:41AM
  • Re:It IS silly by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:47AM
  • Re:Education is education by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:10AM
  • Re:good idea, by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:19AM
  • Re:good point, by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:29AM
  • Re:good idea, by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:35AM
  • Re:Application Software by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:43AM
  • Re:Wine is too heavy. by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:46AM
  • Re:PDF is wrong too - use HTML by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:55AM
  • Re:Can MS write off "piracy" related losses? by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:58AM
  • Re:Math change: Only for serious academics? by mpe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:05AM
  • Thought Police by LazloTheDog (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:49AM
  • Re:Equally Silly, though... by brianvan (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @02:31PM
  • Re:Does anyone actually read the entire article? by Kenneth (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:51PM
  • Re:Education is education by theMAGE (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:29AM
  • Re:good idea, by Microlith (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:35AM
  • Wrong aproach to word documents by gotan (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:58AM
  • one of these things is not like the other by vbrtrmn (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:16AM
  • It's the applications... by q2k (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:30AM
  • linux boxen in pre-college schools? by maraist (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:05PM
  • Re:M$ is just plain nuts by mach-5 (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:49AM
  • Re:Useless... by barneyfoo (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:44AM
  • Re:Funny... by barneyfoo (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:33AM
  • Re:In other news... by lovebyte (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:33AM
  • Re:It IS silly by DebtAngel (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:51AM
  • Reality Check: "Cash Strapped" Schools by Speare (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @11:58AM
  • Actually, I don't feel sorry for them by sg3000 (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:35AM
  • Re:It IS silly by artemis67 (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:26AM
  • Re:M$ is just plain nuts by Pedrito (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:25AM
  • Re:Application Software by DrCode (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:31AM
  • right on! by rodentia (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:50AM
  • run it!? by rodentia (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:53AM
  • No bitching by rodentia (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:20AM
  • Schools and Software by zerus (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:30AM
  • Free software and education by DeepDarkSky (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:41AM
  • Windows PCs by MonkeyMagic (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:10AM
  • Re:Good Analogy by Capt. DrunkenBum (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:22AM
  • Wine is too heavy. by ClayJar (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:15AM
  • Re:PR Head by NumberSyx (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:00AM
  • You are seing it in reverse ... by Aceticon (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:40AM
  • Re:Intellectual Property Deserves to be Respected. by gowen (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:23AM
  • Teachers may be the problem here by ellem (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:11AM
  • Need does not justify anything. by ajna (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:58AM
  • Re:Application Software by jayhawk88 (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:59AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by SnapShot (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:02AM
  • Public Schools and Free Software by pizen (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:09AM
  • Re:Bad Analogy by Enigma2175 (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:07AM
  • Schools and Free Software??? not really. by firewort (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:26AM
  • an amazing opportunity by Alien54 (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:16AM
  • good point, by Ratteau (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:36AM
  • Re:Why Linux Projects Fail by SubtleNuance (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:50AM
  • Re:Does anyone actually read the entire article? by SubtleNuance (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:13AM
  • Re:Funny... by SubtleNuance (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:23AM
  • Re:Bad Analogy by SubtleNuance (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:46AM
  • Re:Actually, it is their privelege, not their "rig by SubtleNuance (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:16AM
  • Oh, come on by Elvis Maximus (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:30AM
  • Re:Useless... by elefantstn (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:49AM
  • Re:good idea, by elefantstn (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:39AM
  • What is wrong with that? by MeNeXT (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:42AM
  • WINE? by maddogsparky (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:29AM
  • Re:It IS silly by Foggy Tristan (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:17AM
  • Re:It IS silly by Foggy Tristan (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:52AM
  • Profit from charity. by Darth RadaR (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:55AM
  • Quote from the article by benogod (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:27AM
  • Re:Funny... by tmark (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:46AM
  • Re:Funny... by tmark (Score:2) Thursday July 12 2001, @05:59AM
  • Re:Education is education by tmark (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:30AM
  • Making copies because you are underfunded by (H)elix1 (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:52AM
  • Re:Microsoft is right (gasp!) by acceleriter (Score:2) Wednesday July 11 2001, @02:27AM
  • [Humour] Re:Its a virus by opkool (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:38AM
  • Abuse of Monopoly Power by stonewolf (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:16AM
  • Re:The solution I've used by grammar fascist (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:16AM
  • Re:good idea, by Eslyjah (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:52AM
  • Microsoft and the BSA "agents" by plcurechax (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:56AM
  • Re:In other news... by fmaxwell (Score:2) Thursday July 19 2001, @04:25AM
  • Re:In other news... by fmaxwell (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @12:56PM
  • Re:Useless... by UberLame (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:17AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by dasunt (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:08AM
  • Re:US Ph.D's by daniel_isaacs (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:41AM
  • Re:Bad Analogy by daniel_isaacs (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:02AM
  • secret deal with MS by jsse (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:23AM
  • Re:It IS silly by ocbwilg (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:11AM
  • Re:It IS silly by ocbwilg (Score:2) Thursday July 12 2001, @09:44AM
  • Re:schools and computers... by ocbwilg (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:19AM
  • Re:good idea, by ocbwilg (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:37AM
  • Re:Public Schools and Free Software by ocbwilg (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:47AM
  • Re:Education is education by ocbwilg (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:09AM
  • Re:Free viewers for most M$ products by ocbwilg (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:58AM
  • Re:Math change: Only for serious academics? by ocbwilg (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:35AM
  • This is completely legal... by cavemanf16 (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:22AM
  • where have all the cowboys gone? by Amyloid (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:05AM
  • Ahem by sharkticon (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:03AM
  • Re:The solution I've used by tb3 (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:51AM
  • Re:It IS silly by tb3 (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:11AM
  • Bidding? by CrackElf (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:36AM
  • Are you kidding? by infinite9 (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:18AM
  • more like drug addiction, not infectious disease by janpod66 (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:14AM
  • The face of open source by uigrad_2000 (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:42AM
  • The BSA Director of Enforcement has strange ideas. by Pop n' Fresh (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:12AM
  • Intellectual Property Deserves to be Respected. by jdavidb (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:15AM
  • just another example..... by vocaljess (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:40AM
  • He giveth with one hand, and taketh with the other by harlanwolfe (Score:2) Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:44AM
  • Re:US Ph.D's (Score:3)

    by Wansu (846) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @10:33AM (#95708)
    Really? You may be right, I have no numbers, but the places in US I have been most of the Ph.D. students have been Asian or European. I sometimes think that the only reason USA hasn't become a third world country is the amazing number of bright minds they import from the rest of the world. They don't seem to produce many of their own.

    You're right about most of the PhD students being foreign and it's been that way since the early 70s. This has happened for a number of reasons. First, PhDs are overproduced. There simply isn't very much demand for them. Many take post-doctoral work because they can't find suitable positions. Most US PhDs seem to be underemployed. Second, a PhD is not necessary to do most technical work. Third, grad students typically don't make much money. So there isn't much incentive to get a PhD other than strong personal desire. An experienced plumber can make more money. Many of the foreign students get PhDs to gain a foothold in America.
  • Re:US Ph.D's (Score:3)

    by hawk (1151) <hawk@eyry.org> on Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:55AM (#95709) Journal
    > And Lawyers don't usually get PHD's. They get JD's.


    hey, some of us do :) After five years of practicing law with my J.D., I went and got a Ph.D. . . . :)


    The J.D. and M.D. are professional degrees and not "real" doctoral degrees.


    The J.D. is the same degree as the L.L.B. (Bachelor of Law), but in the U.S., requires a regular bachelor's degree for entry. There is also an L.L.M., most typically in a tax area, that can come after the J.D./L.L.B.. Finally there is the "real" doctor of laws, the L.L.D. (or J.S.D. [doctor of jursiprudence]), which *very* few people have.


    The modern M.D. (As opposed to the classical M.D. of the doctors of the university, which matched the Ph.D., L.L.D., and Doctor of Divinity) was largely concoted in the nineteenth century for the specific purpose of borrowing the respect of the doctors of the university. At the time, getting medical treatment was *much* more likely to harm than help the patient. The A.M.A. deserves a *lot* of credit for this fundamental change in the quality of medical care, but for an M.D. to attepmpt to disparage the Ph.D. with the "I'm a *real* doctor" bit is the height of chutzpah--not only is the Ph.D. the eductation to which the M.D. pretends, but the typical M.D. has never done a scrap of researh to contribute to the knowledge base.


    hawk, j.d., ph.d., a real doctor

  • by malkavian (9512) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:43AM (#95710) Homepage
    is to get a 'company' together, owned jointly by players in the open source arena (Red Hat, FSF, so on), with sales and marketing experience to go and run demonstrations at schools.
    This is exactly how many places got exposed to MS in the first place. A suit turning up, running a slick presentation, demonstrating how EASY it is to run, and giving a professional image.
    After all, it's the exposure and image that gets the beancounters to spend the money.. Or not, in the case of open source.
    Once the presentation is made, a small brochure can be given on where to get support for open source, what it's about, how easy it is to use, where to get the free apps that can drive the institution, and so on.
    Also, have a team on standby to do a few installs, in case institutions want to 'try before they buy into it'.
    This same team to provide basic training on installation to members from institutions (possibly for a small fee to cover the costs of placing someone at a site, possibly hosted by the institution itself). After all, it doesn't take much to teach someone how to install a Mandrake (or Debian, FreeBSD, Red Hat etc) distribution from a CD image.This will be a loss maker financially, but, given that you can call around and have talks with many schools in an area in a day, and take one day to get maximum exposure for a demo, the costs can be minimised.
    As has been mentioned on posts here, the school system is a good place to raise awareness. And once that awareness is present, and people are used to using particular software, it can then slowly move out into the business arena.
    After all, even the more clueless PHBs out there had to have used software at Uni, or somewhere previously (assuming they use it at all). If they KNOW that the Open Source apps work as efficiently for a user (at least) as stuff they pay for.. No prizes for guessing what option they're going to take.
    But, the push needs to come in a slick, businesslike package, presented by the kind of people that are well versed in selling a concept

    Hopefully, this is something already out there, or soon to come about...

    Malk
  • by FreeUser (11483) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:40AM (#95711) Homepage
    Although it is most certainly distasteful, it is (under current law) their right to do so.

    Stictly speaking, it isn't a "right," such as the right to free speech, the right to bear arms, the right to not testify against yourself, etc. It is a privelege bestowed by law, for which the constitution explicitly allows but does not grant outright.

    The mistake of calling such priveleges "rights" is a common one and an understandable one ... another example of how the English language has been manipulated by the use of such terms as "copyright" rather than "copy restriction," which is a more accurate and descriptive term for what the law is designed to accomplish. Very similar to other forms of linguistic manipulation and propaganda, such as calling those who violate the copy restrictions placed on software by law "pirates" or "thieves," in direct opposition to the reality of their actions (nothing is being stolen, merely replicated, and no acts of violence are being committed at sea).

    It behooves us to, where possible, refrain from adopting their choice of language, as language does by in large define the parameters of our thoughts and to some degree the limits of what we can think. Certainly in this context it biases the conversation to the self-serving point of view the Copyright Cartels wish to promote and to some degree undermines our ability to discuss the topic with anything even remotely resembling an unbiased or criticial perspective.
  • Re:It IS silly (Score:3)

    by ethereal (13958) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:23AM (#95712) Journal
    How many entry level jobs say "KOffice Experience Required"?
    ...
    I don't see a lot of Apple ][e's around today to remind me of my HS education.

    And yet, when you got out of HS, somehow you survived having been trained on Apples when the business world wasn't using them. Do you really think it's that much harder for kids today, who are more technically savvy than you or I in HS?

    School is supposed to teach concepts, not what menu in Word to use to get the right fancy font. Students can write essays, do math homework, and research papers on any platform. If you can prepare a presentation in StarOffice, you can do it in PowerPoint, and vice versa. Office suite compatibility in schools is the worst reason to stick with Microsoft. And heck, Microsoft software is so easy to use, those kids shouldn't have any problems making the slight adjustment when they reach the world of business, should they? :)

    Sure, there's some educational software that only runs on Windows, and in those cases the applications provide a good reason to keep some Windows machines around. But general-purpose productivity applications, which are probably what the kids will use most of the time, are not sufficient reason to remain tied to Microsoft.

  • Re:It IS silly (Score:3)

    by billg@microsoft.com (18794) <coop AT redout DOT org> on Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:35AM (#95713) Homepage
    School is supposed to teach concepts, not what menu in Word to use to get the right fancy font.

    You're thinking of college. We need to acknowledge that there are two distinct tracks in HS. Those who will be continuing their education and those who won't. Concepts can be useful to those who are continuing on, but some students NEED to learn skills. And you may know that if someone knows one word processor, they can likely figure out another, but does the hiring authority for an entry level job know this? Maybe not. A lot of folks might shrug off someone who has no MS experience for someone who does.

    What has to be realized is not all students are going into our professions, most won't. Also, not all students have the ability or desire to take concepts and apply them. The latter may be a failing of the educational system, or it may just be a fact of life, but that's certainly another debate. I am just of the mind that we need to provide students who are going to look for jobs right out of school with some skills they can use immediately.

    And yet, when you got out of HS, somehow you survived having been trained on Apples when the business world wasn't using them. Do you really think it's that much harder for kids today, who are more technically savvy than you or I in HS?

    I had apple ]['s in school. At home I had an 8088 , and later a 286 to play with. (I even had access to a server that allowed me to telnet) Which were machines that the buisiness world was using. I was a rather privlidged person. Most people that I went to school with didn't have these. Schools should allow less privlidged students access to what is being used in the "Real World"tm, because they are more likely to be in the group of people who will not continue their education.

  • Re:Bad Analogy (Score:3)

    by MindStalker (22827) <(jlarsen) (at) (fsu.edu)> on Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:55AM (#95714) Journal
    Ok it appears the nobody on slashdot today has any idea what the AIDS reference was about. Here is the story.

    In many countries in Africa around 50% of the population has AIDS and its a horrible epidimic. These governments want to help their people (probably only so those people can stay there, if you don't have any people you don't have a government, but thats another discusion) by providing AIDS medications for them. But the medications are VERY expensive when bought from the people who created these medications so the countried have found suppliers who will supply generic versions of the medication even though its under patent. So these American drugs companies are litterly trying to drag these countries throught the mud with the UN's court system, declariing that they have violated International Patent laws. Anyways the point is there countries are too poor to afford the medicine and are finding it other way. And the US drug companies have no sympathy. This draws many parralles to the situation with MS and schools, though the MS situation is not nearly as serious.

  • by brianvan (42539) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:29AM (#95715)
    is how Sun pretty much paid to be the exclusive computer vendor to my university - well, not exclusive, but my university was still in bed with them.

    The end result is that very little of our computer science work was done outside of Solaris. Perhaps none, even.

    I mean, Solaris is a solid OS, but not only do I have no Windows knowledge from college whatsoever, I also don't really know Linux or MacOS or any other operating system... or any other flavors of Unix, pretty much. The CS department was also very inflexible about introducing anything into the cirriculum that would promote variety and not propriety. There was a LUG on campus, but it was strictly extra-cirricular and outside the scope of the CS program. But it was at least something.

    It would have been NICE to have some variety thrown in there. It also would have been nice if they actually had a user group or any kind of initiative to TEACH us Solaris. Upon entering the CS program, it was assumed that you knew basic Unix commands. While this may not be too much to ask, they had little in the way of reference guides and decent user assistance. If a professor wanted you to do something, he told you what commands to type. Yes, there were MAN pages, but man pages are sometimes cryptic and not a very useful resource to someone who doesn't know they're even there. I fault the university AND Sun for this - their OS is not user-friendly, but it's not learner-friendly either.

    I suppose the worst part was when a professor gave an assignment and left you hanging as a result - through incorrect permissions on class files, typos on command-lines for step-by-step instructions, misplaced binaries, etc. - and the solution was to ask a fellow classmate or computer site operator for assistance and receive many sneers, dirty looks, and belittlement in the process. "OH, YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE CHMOD? *GRUNT* " Reading the FAQ was more like going on a search engine and reading endless pages of technical documents to find simple command references, help files, and troubleshooters. On certain projects, this took hours.

    There was no use trying to learn to use Solaris as a user OS, either. Every student in the university had an e-mail account on the central servers (4 MB limit to files, limited user time) that served as our work environment for CS. Yes, we got extended user time (but you had to switch groups for it for EVERY CLASS, and professors had a funny habit of not mentioning the group number on the syllabus or in class), but as you can imagine our capabilities on the systems were somewhat limited - except for the glaring security holes, but that's another story. The "where" command was disabled, and few applications were installed or accessible to students. In essence, if you wanted to use Solaris as a user OS, you pretty much had to have your own computer to use for it.

    In conclusion, I have little to no programming experience outside of Solaris (I kinda stopped going to the LUG after a while, mostly because I didn't have access to a Linux box), but I don't really know how to use Solaris either. Furthermore, I no longer have access to Solaris either. I'm poor, I can't afford another computer, I don't have enough HD space to dual boot, I've got a lot of cheezy hardware that I don't want to go to waste (webcam, digital speakers, obscure network card, TV tuner), and I'm not involved or interested in any projects at the moment. And unlike the days of MS-DOS, Solaris has little relevance as a desktop OS at the moment - and even if it did, I wouldn't know about it.

    This is why I don't like Sun. They don't just want to beat MS, they want to BE MS. They try to force their own brand of uniformity into institutions as well. They suck just like MS does, but in different ways. I'm glad I didn't get the Bachelors of MFC in CS, but what I have is somewhat useless to me at the moment. After four years of college, I still can't write usable programs on my home computer. At least with some diversity in OSes, I could have had more choices to find something that interested me and that I would want to work with even after college. I think that's what we need to focus on for kids today - let them learn different things so they don't get stuck on one thing in the future. Then maybe people won't have to dual-boot in the future just to use proprietary software/hardware when needed.
  • by weave (48069) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:27AM (#95716) Journal
    Microsoft already heavily discounts software for schools. I can buy full blown Office licenses under their select program for under $50 for example. At those prices, it's not worth it to pirate it.

    What the school systems have problems with is the personnel to enforce licensing, the resistance to lock down teacher machines to prevent software installs since they claim they need to install educational software, stuff that comes with texts, etc, etc... Ensuring license compliance is tough in a school, even if the school administration is doing all they can to be legal.

    What I find highly disgusting is Microsoft trying to profit from this situation by nailing them to the cross instead of trying to work with them to make them legal at the cost of the licenses.

    For example, one program Microsoft has is to sell unlimited per-seat site licensing for their software based on the number of FTE (full-time equivalent) staff. This agreement includes installations on student lab PCs of an unlimited number of copies. It's called the "Campus Agreement" and would be ideal in many of these cases. They should approach the schools and offer that to them with no penalties and not force them to do a costly audit and in real hard-luck cases, offer them grants to help pay for it (and since it's only a paper license, the marginal cost to Microsoft is almost zero...)

    This frees up the school from a costly logistical nightmare. Now why the hell can't Microsoft work with the schools instead of trying to make examples out of them?

  • by UnknownSoldier (67820) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:24AM (#95717)
    > And when you don't like the laws, you don't break the laws.

    Uhm, sorry no. Civil disobediance at an unjust law works faster then any "by the book" method.
  • BGates is giving money and HW/SW [yahoo.com] to schools on one hand.
    The other hand is making profit from other schools.

    He must have read Machiavelli [utm.edu]. Look like an angel in the public eye, act like a devil in reality.

  • Re:good idea, (Score:3)

    by heffel (83440) <dheffelfinger AT ensode DOT net> on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:50AM (#95719) Homepage Journal
    Modern linux distributions are as easy to use as Windows. You can point and click your way to pretty much anything.

    I don't think any windows user would have much trouble using one of these distributions.

    As a case in point, my 14 year old brother came to visit the other day (we live thousands of miles apart), he had never seen any computer running anything other than Windows. He had no problem whatsoever using my Mandrake 8 machine.

  • Its a virus (Score:3)

    by drnomad (99183) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:07AM (#95720)
    Unfortunately, Microsoft Office is like a virus. If one of the offices you connect to uses it, it means that you have to use itserlf. In that way, Office usage is spreading like a infectious disease.
    --
  • Re:It IS silly (Score:3)

    by demaria (122790) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:01AM (#95721) Homepage
    No, installing linux, recompiling a kernal, and using a command prompt does not in and by itself show how a computer or operating system works.

    Typing "/usr/bin/emacs" and clicking "Start -> Programs -> emacs" merely launch emacs. Likewise, clicking an icon in a GUI that represents the file location does the same thing. Just because you got unix does not mean you know how program execution works.

    The problem with linux and especially X is:
    1) Consistancy
    2) Predictability
    3) Simplicity
    4) Standardization

    These can be very fustrating to new users. Heck, it annoys me, and I consider myself experienced enough. :) I just live with it. But if I was new to the system, I wouldn't want to use unix. It is way to hostile of an environment. The younger the kids, the more annoying these inconsistancies become. And then you turn kids off to computers.
  • by yerricde (125198) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:30AM (#95722) Homepage Journal

    How can Microsoft prosecute schools when they're all still running on Apple IIs?

    The version of Basic [everything2.com] built into the ROM of all Apple II computers from II Plus to IIGS is copyright Microsoft. "Pay up on Office, or we'll terminate your Applesoft Basic license, and you won't be able to use your IIGS lab."

  • by pjrc (134994) <paul@pjrc.com> on Tuesday July 10 2001, @08:36AM (#95723) Homepage Journal
    Don't like your school?? Are your teachers a bunch of jerks? Maybe you just don't like getting out of bed early in the morning?

    Now's your change to "get back" at them and cause them some pain. Quoting from the article:

    Once discovered -- typically through tips that come via hotlines like 1-800-RU-LEGIT -- they're treated just like any other violator, says Jenny Blank, BSA's director of enforcement.

    So there you have it: the number to call. It might help to actually know there's some unlicensed software on a particular machine or two... but my guess is they'd be glad to have any tip, even a lie, as an excuse to conduct an audit (there will almost certainly be machines with unlicensed software, which means profit for the BSA)

    Of course, it's Summer, so to maximize the pain for your school district, you'll probably want to wait until shortly before or right about the time school starts back up. In the end, doing this will only make the environment worse for everyone (except the BSA and maybe Microsoft), but it will put a lot of additional stress on teachers and administrators in the short term.

  • by dmccarty (152630) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:21AM (#95724)
    Well, we have a solution. The K-12LTSP v.1.0 project

    When I first read that name I thought you were joking. No wonder why so many Linux companies are failing: lack of connection between the products and their potential customers. Here you go through the entire schpiel of a car salesman, and when it comes to the point of naming the car you blurt out some cryptic code that no one who isn't a car technician would understand. Detroit doesn't name their cars the GMC 225HP-WB-180/25-14. No one would buy such a hideously named monstrosity. And if they did, the owners would decide on a pronouncable name and call it that.

    Without simplicity, products are destined for failure. Great concepts are often complex concepts packaged in simple packaging. Why would a teacher unfamiliar with your product choose "K-12LTSP v.1.0" over "Microsoft Windows"? If you don't choose a name that you can build recognition with your products will be simply unrecognizeable (and thus unsold).

  • Re:good point, (Score:3)

    by SnapShot (171582) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:16AM (#95725)

    It's a non-issue anyway. Imagine a large school district -- Philadephia, New York, LA -- announced that, due to the cost of licenses of MS products, they were standardizing on Debian (or pick your favorite distribution) with StarOffice, Gimp, and Mozilla for the 15,000 computers in all of their schools and administrative offices. Approximatly, 16 hours later a fleet of helecopters from Redmond would swoop down and drop crates of MS products compliments of the Gates foundation. Microsoft may want everyone to pay for their software, but the one thing they can't risk is an entire city of children and educators who realize that there are options other than MS for your software.

  • by SubtleNuance (184325) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @09:04AM (#95726) Journal
    How about you config your email server to strip any *.doc *.xls *.mdb file and send a reply to the sender:

    The file attachment sent to the %user_name has been found to be of a proprietary and closed standard. The computing lab at %school_district maintains an open and commercial-vendor neutral computing infrastructure."The file you have sent is unable to be opened save specific proprietary software(s). Please retransmit your files in some of the following suggested formats:

    *.doc - *.rtf

    *.xls - *.csv

    *.ppt - *.html
    Your intended recipient, %user_name, has been notified of this transmission.
    "

  • Re:It IS silly (Score:3)

    by SubtleNuance (184325) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @07:56AM (#95727) Journal
    Schools have a responsibility to give students some real world skills that they can use not to enlighten or indoctrinate

    Schools are meant ot teach conecpts - not as job training. Enlightenment is *EXACTLY* the goal. Indoctrination is another matter altogether, which is a bit to far offtopic - suffice it to say - "Indoctrination" occurs all around you - it is trying to instruct or teach a group of ideas... and when you run the school system, you are indoctrinating.

    Teach a person what it means to 'copy a file' on a 'fixed media' is what is necessary - the implementation is trivial. cp or copy or 'cut-paste' is simply 'copying a file' afterall.

    Teaching people how to use 'M$ Office XP' is a wrong - teaching them about word processors, spreadsheets and SQL/RDBMS is the *right* thing to teach.

    Vocational schools (trade schools) teach job-skills. "General Public" schools should be preperation for University... and the foundations of general knowledge... otherwise the person should be sent to a vocational school.
  • by phaze3000 (204500) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:29AM (#95728) Homepage
    "The copyright law should be applied universally," she says. "What is it we're trying to teach these children anyway? Are we teaching them that its OK to steal? The message we need to get to them is that intellectual property deserves to be respected."

    That's funny, at my school we were always taught to share. If you had something that someone else could use, and you didn't need it, you should give it to someone else. This was never portrayed as stealing at any point during my education..

    --

  • by tenzig_112 (213387) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:34AM (#95729) Homepage
    The 9x OS is a bit of a commodity, something consumers think they cannot do without, something with only one source. Perhaps only a psychological monopoly, but real enough.

    And with the growth of the industry stagnant, the Baron has ordered Raban to sqeeze all he can from Arakis, SQUEEZE!

    [New slogan = "Through Windows I set my mind in motion."]

    I'm less worried about what the move does for school budgets as much as what it will do to kids. "Dad, when I grow up I want to be a robber barron."

    The education squeeze is nothing compared to the hurt they're putting on the suits. The new Software Assurance program may increase software operations costs for some businesses as much as 40%.

    The deadline delay is supposed to make them look magnanimous: Kinder, Genter Microsoft Delays Buggery of Corporate America [ridiculopathy.com]

  • by dcavanaugh (248349) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @05:20AM (#95730) Homepage
    Of all the places that M$ could look for money, school systems are probably the least effective. They generally don't buy anything without budgeting a year in advance. Even then, anything that is not a state or federal mandate can be deleted at a whim. I suspect that a great deal of software is grant-funded. This means an even longer lead time, and the approval process is even more unpredictable. Even if the schools want to cooperate, they will expend most of their energy on reducing license utilization, not buying more licenses. Never underestimate the ability of a school system to pinch pennies.

    Besides, M$ should be giving the product away.

    Digital used to give away just about all their software to colleges via the "Campuswide Software License Grant" program. For a while, it really worked. DEC expanded their market share in higher ed., and students graduated with DEC experience. It wasn't enough to stop the PC trend, and DEC watered down the program in a desperate search for cash. However, it was a great idea, especially as a tax writeoff. The cool part was that they could write off the full value of what the colleges used (not what they bought or would have bought). If they used 3X as much software as before, the whole program became revenue-neutral compared to the old practice of trying to get blood from a stone.

    The alternative is the current M$ strategy, which creates a huge opportunity for open source. Considering the escalating per seat cost of M$, the schools would be better off hiring open source consultants to install & train. The only problem is the availability of educational software (unless WINE becomes a reliable concept).

    Apple tried the donation method and failed, but you have to consider that the stuff was pricey (for traditional paying customers), and not all that well suited for business (at the time).

    M$ could easily follow the DEC/Apple example, and probably get better results than DEC or Apple did. Not only could they do this, it would not be an anti-trust issue because it's already been done by companies that once had commanding market share in the market where they were giving the product away. Besides, since when was there a limit on charitable corporate donations?

    Instead, we can watch the latest example of M$ foolishness. It tells us who we are dealing with and what their priorities are.

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer or tax advisor. This is not legal or financial advice.

  • Microsoft Audit (Score:3)

    by lcypher (446291) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:38AM (#95731)
    My question for the BSA was, "When is the last time your member companies have been audited?"

    First they told me that member companies are not audited. Then I asked how they could expect other companies to perform costly audits if the member companies that are trying to enforce thier copyrights are not audited themselves.

    Then they told me that there had been audits, but they are not publicized. I asked how the public found out about BSA audits and fines in the past if they weren't public. They claimed that the companies that infringed the copyrights and were fined were the ones making public the results of the audits. So, copyright infringers are tattling on themselves when they get caught?

    I guess the best way not to get audited by the BSA would be to become PART of the BSA. Then you can go after companies and schools that don't comply to standards that you don't comply to yourself. How do you spell "hypocrisy"?
  • by night_flyer (453866) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:01AM (#95732) Homepage
    kids arent learning, math hasnt changed in 100s of years, english hasnt changed in almost as many, history, well it changes once a year, but major events dont happen that often (besides that is what "current events class was for) books are reusable and dont need to be "upgraded". instead of using this money on computers and internet access that is NOT needed, why dont they invest some TIME and EFFORT into the children themselves. the latest polls show we have the DUMBEST KIDS in the WORLD... meanwhile my grandparents were taught in a one room schoolhouse with no AC (its now used as my parents garage). they learned ALL the basics PLUS a whole lot more... and their parents were POOR farmers in the southeast corner of Kansas... we dont need computers, we need teachers...

    _______________________

  • by euroderf (47) <a@b.c> on Tuesday July 10 2001, @03:59AM (#95733) Journal
    People round here might demonise Microsoft, but at the end of the day education is education and it doesn't matter how it is provided or who by, as long as it is impartial and rounded.

    I read an interesting article on this topic at adequacy.org [adequacy.org], the controversial discussion site, regarding the education of children.

    The article [adequacy.org] considered the sort of education that children get from unlikely sources, such as games, and the dangerous relations of this to commercial companies and some of the adverse effects.

    Seems to me that we should not be overzealous and deny education and educational equipment, nomatter the provider.

    That would be taking zealoutry too far.
    --

  • by chill (34294) <Charles.E.Hill@gmail.com> on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:06AM (#95734) Homepage Journal
    I've donated a couple of old PCs (and their respective Win95 licenses) to my kid's school. I've considered installing some Linux boxes (ThinkNICs) to assist but...

    When I walked in the class there was a shelf full of (properly purchased -- for the most part) Windows educational software. None of that would run on Linux. Not much point installing a PC that couldn't run any of their existing programs.

    I am in the process of gathering as much educational (elementary, middle & high school) software for Linux as possible so I can present them with an alternative.

    Ideally GPL, since it will be installed on 8-10 workstations. (That's the "for the most part" part of the Windows software -- they own 1-2 copies of each, not 8-10.)

    Does anyone have FIRST HAND experience with educational software for Linux that they could recommend? Not just a site that promotes the stuff, but specific programs that are worthwhile.

    --
    Charles E. Hill
  • Bad Analogy (Score:4)

    by Foxman98 (37487) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @03:55AM (#95735) Homepage
    I think comparing a very horrible, deadly disease to software problems is very tasteless.
  • Re:It IS silly (Score:4)

    by Tackhead (54550) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:57AM (#95736)
    > Take away Microsoft's demand at this level and this will most likely continue through the student's lives.

    Entirely true. I got into Solaris because Sun dumped about $250K worth of IPC workstations and 21" black-and-white monitors into our CS lab when I was in college.

    Strangely, everyone I graduated with also thought Sun gear and their OS was pretty cool, soundly beating the crap out of those MS-DOS boxen we had in our dorm rooms. We laughed when we saw Windows 3.1, which was the "really cool thing because you could run more than one program at once".

    Opportunity to any Linux consultant-type geek: Find a school district. Point out the costs of MSFT licencing. Offer, for $20 per box, to install Linux and KOffice.

    If you're in high school and are a consultant-type geek, offer to do it for free for your school, then $20 per box to other schools.

    "Bring a child up in the way in which he should go, and when he is older, he will not depart from it".
    - Proverbs.

  • Good Analogy (Score:4)

    by maddogsparky (202296) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:30AM (#95737)
    ...comparing a very horrible, deadly disease to software problems is very tasteless.

    I believe he was refering to the practice of large companies applying the same arm-bending tactics to financially-stricken individuals and groups as they do to organizations and individuals that clearly have the capability to pay without severely impacting the other parts of their existence.

    If schools have to pay outrageous prices for software that costs next to nothing to reproduce, at the expense of paying for teachers, facilities, books, computers, etc., the kids attending those schools are disadvantaged because it will be difficult to get a good education. AIDS is bad because of the quality of life it bestows on the stricken. A poor education often results in poverty. Either way, a person is reduced to scraping to get by in life, when it doesn't have to happen.

    If the means exist to treat both (drugs for aids, better teaching aids in schools), and large, profit-centric companies exacerbate the problem instead of helping, how is this a bad analogy?

  • good idea, (Score:4)

    by Gehenna_Gehenna (207096) <{moc.liamg} {ta} {nettenavac}> on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:04AM (#95738) Homepage
    but most of the teachers in elementary schools don't have the first idea how to use Linux, or other non-windows os's. The applications and operating systems have yet to come to the point where "joe Elementary School Teacher" would be able to use it effectivly, much les instruct others on how to use it. Please do not flame me, all you computer literate elmeantery school people, you KNOW that most of your collueges are apart of the AOL crowd...
  • by evocate (209951) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @06:11AM (#95739)
    I followed the links from here to the BSA piracy study [bsa.org]. I was impressed by their estimate of piracy costs last year - almost US$12 billion. This is an interesting number because it's based on wholesale prices set by commercial software publishers. These prices are already padded to offset piracy losses. There is a reflexive [soros.org] relationship between wholesale prices and piracy losses. If the BSA reports higher dollar losses due to piracy then wholesale prices will rise to offset the increased loss. Reflexively, these higher wholesale prices result in higher dollar losses due to piracy. A vicious circle for consumers, a benign circle for publishers of popular consumer software.

    How about another even more outrageous reflexive relationship? If the BSA is successful at international enforcement of U.S.-based licenses, they will be able to extract rather large amounts of capital from rather poor countries. The trade balance will swing in favor of the U.S. and result in a stronger US$ (currency strength always follows the balance of trade). A stronger US$ in turn requires these countries to pay out even more for software licenses and swing the trade balance even further in favor of US commercial software publishers.

    Soros's reflexivity theory explains boom and bust market cycles. It also explains why booms build slowly, reach a frenzied climax, and then bust violently (like the dot-comedy). Usually, some new factor (a disruptive technology) enters the picture and reverses the direction of the circle, changing beneficiaries into victims and vice-versa. It's no wonder Microsoft abhors free software alternatives. There are many such vicious circles in the software industry that are fueled by the current commercial software model. Microsoft's entire business model depends on these circles remaining intact. And as you know, free software is the only realistic way that these circles can be reversed.

  • by opkool (231966) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:08AM (#95740) Homepage

    Celebrating the release of version 1.0 this last July, 4th. let me impersonate a car-dealer:

    Do you want a computer-lab in your school?

    Do you need 100% uptime?

    Do you want to have a maintenance-free environment?

    Do you want to teach, not re-install Windows?

    ... but you do not want to spend $20,000 and need crash-less computers?

    Well, we have a solution. The K-12LTSP v.1.0 project

    For about $6,000 (less if you already have "old" computers), you can set-up a lab with e-mail, browsers, office suites, image programs...

    On Linux, of course.

    Newsforge article [newsforge.com]

    K12LTSP home page [k12ltsp.org]

    Work with Legacy equipment [k12ltsp.org]

    ... and a " girl magnet [k12.or.us] " as stated on their site:

    Salut and education,

  • by Caid Raspa (304283) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:42AM (#95741)
    We use AppleWorks for word processing but I put Office on their computers because they couldn't read the Microsoft Word attachments they kept getting from the district's central office

    This is their official reason for violating the license. I've had the same problem (management droids send MS attachments), but my solution is legal and working: When I get an e-mail MS attachment, I reply near-instantly:

    Sorry, I could not open the file you sent me. Got an error message 'unknown file format' or something like that instead. Could you re-send it, and please use the pdf format this time, it seems to work better on my system.

    Thanks.

    Most managers are not computer literate, and sometimes this would even be a plausible reason (corrupted file etc.) So, MS Word gets the blame.

    Most of the managers send then a pdf. Sometimes I've had to show them how to make this. (Repeat after me: Save-as-pdf) After a few mailings like this, some guys have actually started sending pdf attachments instead of 'corrupted' MS-Word docs.

    I have a Linux system, so I use pdf2ps and ghostview. They could use the Acrobat Reader or something else if they don't want to install Linux. I could of course use StarOffice, but this seems to work just as well.

  • Linux in education (Score:4)

    by jneves (448063) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @03:58AM (#95742) Homepage
    A good reference for schools to use in this area is SEUL [seul.org].
  • Re:Useless... (Score:5)

    by Enry (630) <enry.wayga@net> on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:34AM (#95743) Journal
    Bull pucky. *honks your nose*

    The reason why most people (businesses) won't make the switch from Windows to Linux is that Linux will take too long to retrain employees. Teaching Linux and OpenOffice in schools is the perfect way to get this training done right the first time.

    These students then go off into the world, wondering where OpenOffice is and what this crap software called Word is supposed to do.
  • US Ph.D's (Score:5)

    by Per Abrahamsen (1397) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:26AM (#95744) Homepage
    > We end up with the same or more numbers of phds
    > and master students per capita.

    Really? You may be right, I have no numbers, but the places in US I have been most of the Ph.D. students have been Asian or European. I sometimes think that the only reason USA hasn't become a third world country is the amazing number of bright minds they import from the rest of the world. They don't seem to produce many of their own.

    Of course, this is in science and technology only. Maybe USA produce the worlds finest doctors and lawyers.
  • It is their right (Score:5)

    by GauteL (29207) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:07AM (#95745) Homepage
    Although it is most certainly distasteful, it is (under current law) their right to do so.

    I'm not sure it is in their best interest though. It may seem so right now, because of their monopoly-situation, that trying to maximise short-term profit using this kind of strategy is wise.

    I believe it is just this sort of thinking that may eventually lead to their downfall.
    If schools get sick enough of forced-upgrading, high prices, anti-piracy-schemes etc.. they will switch because of their low budget..
    And since they may very well help influence thousands of kids each, I think Microsoft should continue to be gentle to them (which my understanding is that they've mostly been so far).
  • by Kenneth (43287) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:54AM (#95746) Homepage
    Come on people. Why bitch about this? Instead encourage schools to use Open Source. I can't believe the lack of thought I've seen on these message boards.

    Remember that one of the major attributes of all educators in the public education system is a heavy concern for money. You'd have it too if you were making 1/3 of most other people with a similar level of education, and had to hear about how the budget didn't allow for this or that necessary item.

    Just what do you think the most effective way to advocate Free Software to educatiors is? Note that we should call it Free Software when advocating to schools. The idea confusion between free beer and free lunch will help us here where it hurt us in the business world.

    All we have to do is point out to horribly cash strapped schools that not only can they get this great software for little or no money, but they can copy it to their heart's content and put it on as many computers as they want.

    There will be some problems since educators often tend to be technophobic as well, but simply pointing out such incidents in the mainstream press will go a long way to make them consider a Free alternative.

    Why bitch about this? Why not just encourage Free Software? Because bitching about this IS going to be the most effective way we can encourage the use of Free Software in the education system. Sure it's scare tactics, and smacks a little of FUD, but WE aren't making this up. As far as I'm concerned Microsoft dug their own grave here, it's just up to us to take advantage of it.
  • by sstaton (51605) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:36AM (#95747) Homepage
    Good luck getting any non-Microsoft software into school districts. At one time, Apple was the defacto king of educational computers, but in the last couple of years Microsoft has very successfully marketed their way into most middle and upper-middle class schools. My local elementary has "Microsoft nights" where parents are shown Microsoft products -- all pitched under the auspices of the local school district (McKinney ISD, with which I have recently had a few disagreements [deltos.com] and which has been noted in Slashdot here [slashdot.org]).

    It's unlikely that Linux or branded Linux systems would ever be permitted in this environment. I'll be that Microsoft has sold the MISD licenses that forbid alternative operating systems on any desktop or server in the district, all in exchange for a cheaper Windows license. Well, Linux costs nothing, and as a tax payer, that really fries my bacon when tax dollars are spent on more expensive products that don't really offer any services that the school district's rather restrictive IT policies allow in the classroom.

    I wonder if another monopoly court case could be construed from this?

  • It IS silly (Score:5)

    by nowt (230214) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @03:57AM (#95748)
    to bitch.. open/free software the way for schools to go... this would foster a generation of people who are knowledgable in open/free appliactions.

    Take away Microsoft's demand at this level and this will most likely continue through the student's lives.

  • by daniel_isaacs (249732) on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:11AM (#95749) Homepage
    We do need computers. But we need teachers that understand how to use them. Not as you and I use them, but as a pervasive tool to incorporate into the classroom. Like desks.

    But what they really need are roofs that don't leak. Stomaches that aren't empty. Hearts that are not hopeless.

    It's silly to think a computer or ten will substanitively improve one's education. At least, when more basic needs are not met. Most of the hurdles facing Education in the US are Socio-Economic. Not technological.

    Please pardon my spelling. I went to a public school with no computers.

  • by GreyPoopon (411036) <gpoopon@@@gmail...com> on Tuesday July 10 2001, @04:09AM (#95750)
    Mark it up to arrogance or stupidty, but they are on a path of desctruction. Years ago, Apple Computer worked tightly with educational institutions (mostly universities) to get their hardware (and software) installed for students. Many times, their products were provided at little or no cost. This investment paid off big time. Many college students ended up buying Macintosh computers when they left college. Why? Because it was what they were used to.

    Now, Microsoft is irritating the people that educate young minds. They are very clearly handing the very places where people are first exposed to computers a darn good reason for jumping on the Open Source / Free Software bandwagon. Honestly, somebody with some financial resources should contact these schools and offer to help them transition to Free Software that will prevent them from ever being hassled over licenses again.

    After reading all of these latest releases about Microsoft bullying people, I can't help but think that they are either incredibly stupid (not likely), or they have an ace up their sleeve that nobody knows about yet. All of this sheds light on an experience a company I used to work at had. A few years ago, Microsoft did a license audit at the site (a hospital, BTW), and mysteriously discovered that they weren't in compliance. Now, I wondered how that could possibly be true, as we had more licenses than were being used. Anyway, under the disguise of benevolence, Microsoft agreed to forget the penalities from being "underlicensed," as long as the institution agreed to purchase an "Enterprise License." So, many many budget dollars were redirected to purchase the Enterprise License so that the institution wouldn't get sued. Quite a few high profile projects had to be scaled back or dropped altogether. I wonder what effect that might have had on patient outcomes....

    GreyPoopon
    --

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