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Sean In The Middle
from the SOS-from-a-geek-dad-and-kid dept.
Last week, Sean Sheeley -- computer geek, gamer, and high-school junior in the McKinney Independent School District north of Dallas -- was confronted by a group of students in one of his classes. They'd been tormenting Sheeley for much of the school year, he says. He'd been jabbed, ridiculed, baited, had disks stoken from his computer.
Sheely's father Patrick, a graphic designer, says the incident unfolded this way: one of the kids in his class came up to Sean while others were taunting him and said aloud with others present, "One of these days, he's going to bring a gun to school and shoot us."
Patrick Sheeley, a Slashdot regular, says that "my son, being a little sarcastic, took out a small case that he carries his keys in and pretended to be loading a gun. The same student then said, 'Look, he's loading his gun.'
At some point, says Patrick, one of the other students joined in with some additional comments, further upsetting Sean, who then responded:
"If this had been a real gun,you'd be dead now." One of the kids turned him in.
Sean was called into the principal's office where he got suspended for three days and sent home. School officials then notified his parents that Sean was being removed from the high school and sent to an alternative school for kids with learning and other problems. He was no longer fit for mainstream education, the school had decided.
The decision was "unappealable" to school administrators, Patrick was told. He could appeal to the school district, but not until May, when the school year was virtually over. None of the other students involved have been disciplined, nor, to the Sheeleys' knowledge, even questioned. Patrick says officials told him that the school has a statement from a single student who overheard the remark and reported it.
Sean says that he'd like to forget the whole day, but here's what he remembers:
"There was much of the usual taunting, mocking my intelligence, mocking things I hold interest in, etc. Then one of them said, 'You know, one of these days he's going to bring a gun to school and kill us all.' And that is, so to speak, what knocked over the first domino. I also remember one of them trying to take the computer disks out of my backpack... the same person who went through my backpack accused me of being gay."
Sean said he'd prefer the high school to an alternative school. Othwerwise, he says, "why would I want to go back to a school that lies, breaks state laws, and gets rid of bright students who finally snap, merely to 'make the school feel safer?' All the school is doing is satisfying a few parents' false sense of insecurity, brought on by the intense media attention to the recent school shootings, by giving them a false sense of security, at the expense of students like myself. The ONLY reason I'd want to go back is to see my few friends again, and I can keep in contact with them without going to school."
Sean's comment was foolish, his father says, especially in the post-Columbine environment where candid speech about schools is dangerous. And he isn't averse to some milder form of punishment.
I wonder if Sean deserves anything more than a useful speech on sensible responses to morons. Perhaps he should be called into an office and told that one of an individual's noblest callings is to make fools reveal themselves. There appear to be mitigating circumstances, to say the least, and Sean was defending himself, reflexively and verbally, if not wisely. Patrick is surprised by the profoundly anti-democratic, Banana Republic policies that govern public schools in America, where there is no Constitution, protected speech, or due process for citizens under 18. Thousands of kids like Sean won't be the least bit surprised.
In fact, school officials across the country may be chasing the wrong kids out of school. The U.S. Center for Disease Control (CDC) reports that more than 2,000 school age children 19 or younger take their lives each year in the United States, many citing depression, social cruelty and bullying and other forms of harassment. That means that many more kids harm themselves as the result of social cruelty than harm other kids.
"I just don't know what to do," says Patrick, who can't afford a lawyer, and who wants to protect his kid. Sheeley is aware that this kind of record could have implications for Sean down the line. "...I would appreciate any suggestions as to what recourse we may have, or where we might find some help."
In the meantime, he and his wife have pulled Sean out of the district rather than submit to his being shunted to an altenative school. The Sheeleys are home-schooling him, an increasingly popular alternative for individualistic kids facing creative suffociation or social isolation and persecution in larger schools. "What's the lesson for him?" his father asks. "This wasn't a fair process. The kids who provoked him were not disciplined equally, or at all. It could have been me," Patrick says, of the incident. "I felt the same way when I was in school. I probably even said the same thing." It could have been lot of people.
Even though administrators have deemed Sean too dangerous to stay in high school -- perhaps he triggered one of their dangerous-kid-profiles -- the junior has never been in trouble of any sort, his father says, inside or out of school: never been arrested, disciplined, suspended, or even involved in a fight.
I called the school district to ask if there was any comment. A secretary in the administrators' office asked me if I was kidding. "No," she said. We don't have any. And what is a Slashdot?"
Sean provides a nearly classic example of kids in the middle of an increasingly insane social situation. We know this story. Sean and his father are both self-professed computer geeks. Sean has a few friends who are into computers and gaming, and who generally feel isolated and excluded at school. Sean finds many of his classes boring, although he has met academic requirements, and spends most of his time in his creative other life, building computers, programming, networking, writing games, especially RPG's.
His experience shows that a culture of harassment remains tolerated in many educational institutions; where kids can be taunted and bullied at will, sometimes into retaliatory statements or actions.
Patrick Sheeley has some decisions to make and could use some help. Should he try to get Sean back into school or walk away? Should he take legal action to force due process? (Many Slashdot community members are familiar with home schooling, judging from my e-mail). He would appreciate hearing from lawyers with expertise in cases like this. He's contacted the ACLU, but isn't sure whether it can or will represent Sean. He knows that irrational policies and the post-Columbine hysteria are all closing in on his kid, and he wants to do something about it.
My knee-jerk thoughts on this (Score:3)
It is time to educate the educators. School officials and teachers need to learn to recognize the signs of bullying and "torture", and to pro-actively prevent it. Starting at the Kindergarten levels, students need not only to be encouraged to be respectful of diversity, but to appreciate it as well. If (for example) schools can pass on to students that a geek and a jock working together could accomplish much more than either could alone, then perhaps the boiling-point temperature that we've recently hit in America's schools could be cooled somewhat.
A Little Contact Info (Score:4)
Re:A (probably rhetorical) question (Score:3)
Dad: So Sean, how was your day at school?
Sean: Well, I got bullied and it was really humiliating. I'm thinking about threatening violence tomorrow.
Dad: That's nice. Now go back upstairs and play everquest!
Something tells me the dad had a rude awakening that life wasn't jim-dandy for his son when all of this happened. Kids stick to vague comments like 'school sucked today' and 'just some guys at school being annoying' or something. Any parent who isn't looking won't see that his son is getting shit on with impunity.
As always, if you need to waste your time, I suggest http://news.getschooled.com/ [getschooled.com].
how to make this situation suck less (Score:3)
Kids will be kids. There will be picking. There will be discipline problems. In the past, discipline was meaded out with a paddle. I strongly favor a return to corporal punishment. It works better for most miscreants than anything else. Throwing kids out of school or charging them with felonies is counterproductive.
As for the picking, if a kid is getting picked on he needs to be trained how to fight effectively. He must be able to handle bullies. Any kids identified as being picked on should be given training in boxing, wrestling, karate, jujitsu, judo or other martial arts. Strength training is also likely to be of benefit. This will empower the one being picked on to defend themselves. Bullies will find an easier mark. The school system should provide such kids with stipends.
Do I have a vested interest in this? You bet. I teach kids like this all the time.
Will training kids in self defense and returning to corporal punishment prevent Columbines from happening? Probably. Growing up today ain't no easier or harder than it was then. Kids probably had better access to guns 30 years ago. Heck, I had 2 rifles, shotgun and a pistol when I was 13. There's no way I'd have taken them to school. The threshold for a butt whuppin' was real low. Nobody shot up schools then. I carried a pocket knife then. Still do. But any kid with one today gets arrested. If anyone had cut someone else with their pocket knife, they would have gotten 2 whuppins. One right then and there and another at home.
It's like the little old lady with the shopping cart who wheels grocery sacks full of money through the ghetto. Nobody knocks her over because they know retribution will be sure, severe and swift.
Re:What is a Slashdot? (Score:5)
He calls the freaking secretary, who *CAN'T* say anything to the media because that'd cost her her job
Why doesn't the secretary refer him to someone who CAN say something?
Bullying has been a part of schooling since schools were invented. Hell, read the "Almanzo" book from Little House on the Prairie.
The problem is that kids didn't used to get kicked out of school for responding to bullies. THAT is the issue here.
That's right: claim that he's a gun freak who's gonna kill everyone.
And why the hell should they be allowed to do this kind of crap? They can claim he's a killer, but he can't play along with it?
I'm not trying to excuse the bullies, but want to point out that there are two sides to the story, point out that Sean is not completely free of blame
Like hell you aren't. Kids are in school to learn and shouldn't have to put up with this kind of bullshit from assholes that don't have anything better to do than harrass people who are weaker and/or less popular than themselves. They should expell the little dipshits that like to make life hell for others instead of the kids that have to put up with it because the administrators don't give a flying fuck about it! Yes, Sean is partly to blame, even his father said that, but look at what happened! He gets kicked out of school and the bullies get nothing! If the bullies were being as "clever" as you think and trying to get him kicked out of school, then they should be the ones being kicked out.
interesting sci am article (Score:3)
He cites his studies that state that agression is more likely caused by people that have too-high self esteem. Baseless self-love, and when that self-love is threatened, they lash out. When applied to the model of the "geek" who's being teased, it makes a lot of sense. There certainly is a rationalization of superiority. These kids, we geeks, believe that we are superior to others, because we are smarter. And when it is proven to us that just being smarter isn't enough, you also have to be stronger, faster, better looking, and more socially adept, (and probably richer), that superiority complex is threatened.
Of course, that goes for the bullies too. When they feel threatened by someone smarter than them, they lash out similarly, to demonstrate that their attributes are superior.
If you think about it, it makes a lot of sense.
The author of this article faults the current system, the way we raise our kids, afraid to criticize or judge too harshly, lest we crush their frail egos and turn them into homocidal maniacs. When in fact, we are building up their egos too much, to the point where they get this 'tude, and then, they are basically ticking time bombs, waiting for a threat to their egos.
Makes ya think.
Cameras in schools (Score:5)
Is it an invasion of privacy? Yes, but so are metal detectors, drug tests and searching lockers. Why not have video cameras?
Oh, now I remember, because no one really wants to see how bad some of the TEACHERS in public education are. Of course, I have no way to back this up in fact other than my experiences when I was in junior high and high school.
In lieu of cameras everywhere in schools, intelligent and bright young students who are being bullied should resort to the skills they have... geeky nerd hacker skills... and should go about tape recording and video taping their ordeals with hidden cameras with the bullies. Videotaping has worked wonders for police departments (both to catch crooked cops and to prove that there really are a lot of assholes on the road.)
Something to ponder, at least.
Re:A (probably rhetorical) question (Score:5)
For anyone that's ever been bullied in school, what do your parents usually say when you report it, "Dear, when I was in the school the kids did the same types of things to me. Just ignore them and they'll go away."
However, what parents fail to realize is that for some reason, kids today are more agressive in class then they ever have been before. While in the past a spat between two classmates might result in a quick and akward fisfight behind the gymnasium, nowadays with a lack of school administration caring, fights are taking place everywhere, with more deadly weapons and voracity.
If you ponder the idealized schools that parents attended "back in the day", behavior problems wre easier to deal with because there was always a group of troublemakers and bullies that could be singled out for punishment. Of course, the victim would still get the, "Just try to ignore them" explanation that parents still give today. However, nowadays I strongly believe that anyone can be a bully. It is almost like a hierachy of abuse exists. The darwinism of it all is really astounding once you realize it, especially if you're living through it. The kids in these Slashdot articles, while certainly at the "top" of the hierachy in terms of grades, intelligence, skills or creativity, are often cast down to the lowest levels of the food chain when it comes to social respect and decency. The point I'm trying to make is that the bullies at the top tend to make their victims bullies themselves until you reach the bottom where those individuals would love to bully everyone above them for lack of having anyone lower to bully themselves.
Is it a brash overgeneralization? Yes.
Is this post a long winded rant? Yes.
Do I think I have a valid point in here someplace? Yes.
This is a weighty issue that is becoming worse and worse. The difficult part about this discussion is that there really is no "right" and "wrong". Both sides are wrong. The bullies are wrong for being abusive and the victims are wrong for not being a little more levelheaded and creative in dealing with bullies... and for not holding their tongues and incriminating themselves. Now, arguments can be made for whom is more "wrong" than whom, but the point is that to most people, it doesn't *matter*. It makes people uncomfortable. When people become uncomfortable about the situation they revert back to the basics they learned about the human condition, especially in their schooling, which is exactly why parents today tell there children as they've done for generations, "Dear, when I was in the school the kids did the same types of things to me. Just ignore them and they'll go away."
What is a Slashdot? (Score:5)
Re:What is a Slashdot? (Score:4)
He calls the freaking secretary, who *CAN'T* say anything to the media because that'd cost her her job, and then mocks her for not knowing about what is, really, a pissant little website known only to geeks.
He gets *NO* information about the other side of the story. All we have is an extremely biased and, frankly, untruthful accounting of what happened.
Untruthful? Hell, yes, because the Sean's *perspective* of the story is not the truth of the story: it is distorted by his recollection, biases, self-interest and all that rot.
And, come now, is this at all *news*? Bullying has been a part of schooling since schools were invented. Hell, read the "Almanzo" book from Little House on the Prairie. Ask your grandparents: they went to school when teachers could be bullies. Ask your parents and uncles -- in my family, I've an uncle who was effectively the mob boss for the school!
And let's give the bullies some credit for having some smarts, okay? They were picking on Sean, sure -- and when push comes to shove, what's the biggest and baddest "pick" they can do? That's right: claim that he's a gun freak who's gonna kill everyone.
I mean, hell, what a triumphant bit of bullying that is! Harass the weak and dumb right out of the school!
Sorry, Sean, but you walked fully and cooperatively into a trap. Smart geek? I don't think so.
I'm not trying to excuse the bullies, but want to point out that there are two sides to the story, point out that Sean is not completely free of blame, and point out that this is generations-old news.
You-all want to make a difference to your school systems, then you better haul ass into the school board meetings, PTA, and run for a board position. Whinging on in Slashdot about how fucking unfair it all is, isn't going to make one goddamn bit of difference.
Quit being losers, and start taking power. Get involved.
--
Re:Cameras in schools (Score:3)
Simply put, momma doesn't believe that her perfect little angel (even at 16) would *ever* beat up another kid. It's just not the way she raised him. The instant that they get busted on tape, well, hell hath no fury like a disappointed mother. I'm not even talking about a butt whipping, I'm talking about a mother just going ahead and no longer enabling the little bastard to get away with that kind of crap.
If that doesn't work, though, there's always option #2. File charges, and get the kid sent to reform school. Make sure that security keeps an eye on him. Consider expulsion if he slips up again.
There are certainly issues with video cameras anywhere that I'm not entirely comfortable with (the bathrooms come to mind), and students do occasionally need privacy (to an extent that probably has no right to exist with minors in a school), but there's probably a way to work that out properly.
Of course, I'm not sure if this is the answer or not, but it's certainly not a troll.
Raptor
Once again (Score:4)
School administrators, it is time for you to WAKE THE FUCK UP! It is illegal in this country to verbally threaten someone with harm. It is illegal in this country to touch someone without their permission. It is illegal in this country to molest other people's belongings without their permission. It is illegal in this country to band together in a group for the purpose of engaging in other illegal activities. All of this, and more, is illegal, everywhere but inside of a school! There we teach the criminals that it is ok to do all these things, for the only people who get punished are those that you do this crap TO! They get tossed out if they show the slightest little bit of interest in defending themselves.
One of these days a really bright kid is going to snap and we will have an event that will make Columbine look like a walk in the park. Some day, and I fear it is not long off, some kid will really want revenge and his home-made bombs will denonate when they are supposed to, and hundreds of kids, and their families, are going to pay for the cowardice of the school administration to enforce existing laws.
What's saddest of all, is that cowardice is fueled by the sick practice of funding schools based on the number of asses in chairs. The schools are loathe to get rid of problem students not because they want to educate those kids, or think that they belong in class, but because the schools get paid to keep them. The school administrations are consciously choosing to allow kids to continue to be abused daily because the school administration gets more money that way.
Re:Don't home school. (Score:3)
I have come across more than one in my life, but for the most part (there are ALWAYS exceptions) I have to agree with you on this one. I believe it has something to do with the fact that, while most home schooled children get better educations more well suited for thier induvidual talents, they suffer in that they do not have constant social interaction outside of the home. This does leave a mark on a person, but ultimately, most of our genuises don't fit in anyhow, why should we start making them do so?
Fucking for Virginity (Score:5)
Look, mailbombing these idiots isn't going to do any good. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a knee-jerk reaction. Regardless, there will be so many of them that an admin is just going to wipe it clean every hour for a few days until we forget about this story and find something else to complain about. If you really want to make a difference, talk to someone IN PERSON at school, or at least stop preaching to the choir (Katz: this means you too). Stop hiding behind your computer. Throwing epithets through pseudo-anonymous electronic communication is pointless.
(segue)
Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity. Don't fight stupidity with stupidity, try to communicate. Don't hate the people who hate you. You might be surprised to find out that bully is a lot like you.
home school links (Score:5)
A blistering attack on public schools by the NY Teacher of the Year John Gatto [johntaylorgatto.com] - can be found in his acceptance speech [primenet.com] Ouch.
Is home schooling for everyone? No.
But is is an alternative and a great one at that. Read lots.
Re:Phone numbers (Score:3)
NO, NO, NO, NO!! BAD MONKEY!! (Score:5)
Really, if we want to help Sean, we must act positively. Write messages supporting him and explaining our position about this. Don't email bomb them, send them threats, or fill their box with obscense messages. That will never help Sean out.
Oh please yourself (Score:4)
And that's to be accepted in a "civilized" society?
Fuck that.
People pay hard-earned tax dollars to cover the cost of public education, in the hope that their children might - MIGHT - learn enough to survive on their own, perhaps get a good job, make a few friends.
People do not pay hard-earned tax dollars to have their children bullied and threatened while teachers and administrators stand by and do nothing, unless the victims even hint at striking back, in which case the pop pseudopsychology kicks in, and suddenly they become crusading defenders. Of who and what, I'm not sure. Maybe of their jobs - "I prevented another Columbine, give me a raise!" - or some other demented reason.
Maybe parents of abused students (and that's exactly the term for it, abuse) should pull their kids out and send them to private schools. Maybe they should home-school. Maybe they should refuse to pay taxes until they start getting their money's worth. Maybe parents and kids should stage protests, sit-ins, demand the bums be thrown out, demand that some justice and sanity start being applied to the schools they (and you) pay for.
Maybe some parents should start taking an active interest in what their kids are doing outside of home. I wonder how many of the bullies' folks know how they treat other kids. I wonder if they even care.
A stupid statement like Sean's probably would have been ignored ten, even five years ago. For that matter, so would the bullying.
Perhaps if abused students and their parents took a stand and demanded a crackdown on the type of abuse that occurs in public schools, the backlashes wouldn't happen anymore.
end rant.
Better off (Score:4)
Home school your son. He'll thank you for it later, even if he doesn't paticularly care for it now. Not only will he expand his mind many times over what his peers will, he'll do some actual learning, as opposed to simply doing busy work, which public school is well known for. He'll learn how to think for himself and have his own thoughts - traits which are drastically lacking in this society, as is portrayed by the assinine behavior of the administrators.
As for you, Katz, STFU. Please. Enough of this 'defend the poor, helpless, underage geeks!' These kids are capable of defending themselves in such situations - I did. Granted, my parents backed me up, but I took the initiative. A kid has been picking on you? Talk to the administration about the harassment, or simply tell the kid to leave you alone. If he doesn't, talk to the administration. If still nothing helps due to stupid school politics revolving around athletics or other items, sue the bastard child's ass off, or the school district, for being negligent.
Heck, knocking out a few teeth would even be reasonable compared to the bloody stupid approach Katz suggests - I'm sure you could plead temporary insanity or provoked violence in a court of law and get away free, if it came to that. Invasion of self and property and physical harassment/abuse are probably means enough to defend yourself.
-------
CAIMLAS
Re:WTF? (Score:4)
The best part of this story.. (Score:3)
Kudos to Sean's father.
In related news... (Score:5)
"It took years of harassment and torture to finally get the student to show his true self, but these children refused to back away from their horrible treatment of Sean to get to the truth," stated principal Dorf McMoron. "We need to make it clear to these kids that they are here to learn skills to make them happy little workers and consumers for society, and that individualism leads down a bad road to original thought and questioning of our basic Family Values, and we can't have that."
There was an incredibly huge amount of support for the children from the community for their effort. "We can't have kids like Sean in schools. They'll ruin the educational conformity system that we so love", stated one parent. Said another, "bullying is a way of life. I bullied many many kids around in my day, and I make sure my son beats up on some faggot wimp every week, or I kick him with my spurs a few times. Those little wimps need to learn to suck it up, deal with it, like the ones I beat on. Guns are only to defend yourself against criminals, not good ol' red-blooded American bullies, and that's why I have my 350 guns and NRA membership."
The American Family Association was present, accusing the American culture of violent pedophilic homosexual atheist liberals of ruining society, and they are "happy to see one of the horribly persecuted Christians standing up for family values against Satan." When someone pointed out that this had absolutely nothing to do with any of those issues, they responded "See? They're trying to censor us! They're evil, they're evil!"
---
Re:WTF? (Score:4)
And, as a parent, I'm intensely curious to see how this plays out. My son's not quite 3 yet, but his future education is very important and something we're constantly thinking about. I'm sure it will be the largest factor in where we buy our next house. (Note: Put 'North of Dallas' as one of the places not to move to.)
/. editors and Jon Katz, keep stuff like this coming.
--
It's hell.. (Score:3)
We had a case here where a kid brought a gun to school, along with $1500 worth of fake heroin, this was a middle school. He was given a 5-day suspension and that was it. Another kid wrote a list of names out like: "people I don't like" and they interpreted it as "people who I wish to kill in a blood bath". People over react with the smallest things but then when big things happen they want to keep them out of the news. It makes them look like they're doing their jobs, "protecting our kids".
He's only got 1 more year to go then he's off to college where it will be different for him. High school is hell, everyone knows it (well, most geeks) where social popularity rules instead of academic achievement. But I figure, once I'm out the chance that the football star, fake 4.0 (no honors classes, easiest load known to man, parents are "teachers") will become anything useful are slim to none. We'll see what these people become in the future. I know at my 10-year reunion I'm going to have a nice little laugh.
so get outside the home (Score:3)
The key to solving this, as home-schoolers have noticed as home-schooling has gained in popularity recently, is to get outside the home. Organize with other home-schoolers and set up your own teams, clubs, groups. Get the kids signed up for dance lessons, tae kwon do, Scouting, church clubs, etc.
Home-schooling is a lot more than sitting at home 24/7 while mommy/daddy teach from a book. Think of the increased freedom to go on field trips at any time, to get practical exposure to the world (like trips to the store), to schedule school the way it works best for your family. On the 5 o'clock news just the other night there was a segment on how home-schooled kids are turning out to be the brightest and most well-adjusted kids entering the US college system today.
I have zero tolerance for zero-tolerance policies.
Re:What is a Slashdot? (Score:5)
http://www.mckinneyisd.net/cgi-bin/contactus.plx [mckinneyisd.net]
Re:Cameras in schools (Score:4)
There is just one problem with your argument. These cameras would be in public places like schools and government buildings. Privacy is something you should expect to have in private, not in public. If you are in a situation where anyone can overhear what you are saying and see what you are doing, then why is it wrong for the authorities to have an eye and an ear there? You do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy in these places so it can't be wrong for them to be monitored. In short if anyone could be watching then why is it wrong is someone is watching?
An analogy would be for the RIAA to be able to monitor what you post in a chat room or on slashdot. Or to have them be able to access your public ftp site. Of course they can already do these things so if you have a problem with it you had better get moving.
School Politics... (Score:5)
Would anything have been done about it? Nope.
Schools, to AVOID confrontation with parents (being as how they do pay the taxes) will try their darndest to limit the number of parents that get involved in "issues." By saying that there are ten kids...five kids...even ONE kid who's harassing the student, that would involve confronting more than one set of parents. By ignoring the problem, you (AT MOST) anger one set of parents.
We had a problem two years ago in our school district. Two years ago at our local middle school, a student got confronted after school by others who had in the past been harassing him. They started again in their harassment, and he got so angry that he pushed one of them. After that, they punched him a couple times before a school official saw the scuffle and stopped the fight. Because the student who had been harassed began the physical fight, he was suspended by the school district for three days, while the other kids got one day of in-school suspension.
That was that...until the mother of the student went to the news and reported her son's side of the story. SUDDENLY, other parents (unrelated to the incident) started calling in and complaining about how the school handled the incident. The school district folded and dropped the last two days of the student's suspension. With this leverage, the mother filed a formal harassment complaint on behalf of her son to the school district against some of her son's tormentors.
Things were looking on the up-side, until the newspaper dropped the coverage. The school district then rejected the claim of harassment, saying that there was "equal harassment" on both ends during the incident and completely ignored any claim of previous harassment.
If you want to complain to the school district over the incident, don't just have your family complain. Flood the school with as many complaints as you can muster up from other parents of students who attend the school, as well as any possible news agencies. When it comes to the politics of the school system, unless there's pressure in NUMBERS, the administration won't budge.
Re:What is a Slashdot? (Score:4)
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:27:40 -0500
From: "Diana Gulotta"
To: susano_otter
Subject: Re: Request for Information
Thank you Susano.
I have been personally threatened by people through slashdot site and
it is nice to have a reply from someone who is not cussing me out. Enjoy
your weekend, Diana
Susano Otter 04/19/01 01:08PM
Diana,
Thank you for your prompt and thoughtful reply.
Thank you also for reminding me that I am not in posession of all the
facts. I attempted to present questions that were valid in spite of my
handicap; I apologize if I expressed any unwarranted concerns.
I am encouraged by your response, and I encourage you stay true to your
principles and act humanely in all that you do.
Good luck!
:otter
--- Diana Gulotta wrote:
> It is a shame that those who have contacted us have decided to voice
their opinion based on only those facts that have been presented. And
unfortunately, we cannot provide any information on this situation
> because it is a private discipline matter and not public information.
Diana Gulotta,
> MISD
susano_otter 04/19/01 12:04PM The following feedback was received from our website:
My name is Susano Otter and I am Not a taxpayer in the MISD.
My e-mail address is
My comments are:
Given the recent news article posted here:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/04/17/213
couple questions:
First, what steps are you taking to mitigate the effects cruel and
abusive behavior exhibited by students that might lead to feelings of
alienation and stress among members of your student body?
Second, what are you doing to prevent this sort of behavior in the
first place?
Third, what is your policy on verifying student accusations of other
students?
Fourth, do you have clear, well-documented
administration? Do you feel that certain interest groups, if they
bring enough pressure to bear on your school administration, should
be allowed to override your ethics? This is not a loaded question -
it's possible that your ethics specify the supremacy of parental and
other interest groups' concerns.
Finally, do you feel that the reactive approach to resolving student
vs. student conflicts is a better solution than the proactive
approach, or just easier?
I imagine that you will be receiving a large number of comments on
this topic within the next few hours, and it may be difficult to
provide a personal response to each one - especially on top of your
normal workload.
A thoughful, reasonable form letter that makes some attempt to
address the kinds of concerns I've voiced here would be much
appreciated.
You may think I'm not entitled to a response, since I'm not a citizen
in your district, but I feel that we as a nation have some vested
interest in the ethics and actions of all our school districts,
especially now.
Many schools find themselves in the public eye, and the decisions of
their administrators will be an example, and set the tone of future
thinking on these issues nation-wide.
Your choices and your principles could have a profound affect on all
of us, and all our children.
Don't home school. (Score:4)
On a more serious note, school is important for learning how to deal with other people. Every home schooled person I've come across (warning! sample size of one!) has had problems interacting with people.
Home school, but don't JUST home school (Score:4)
My wife and I plan to home school our children. However, we also plan to take the kids to martial arts classes, dance, gymnastics, music, kids sports, etc. The general key to raising not just an intelligent kid but a sociable one seems to be making sure that if they're not getting socialization lessons at school, they get them elsewhere. Hopefully, this theory proves true. I have a fair bit of anecdotal evidence supporting it, based on conversations I've had with kids who were home schooled this way, as well as parents who are currently doing so.
He may already be doing the right thing. (Score:4)
The adoption of "zero-tolerance" speech policies (which I personally consider to be in violation of the first amendment) is taking its toll on otherwise good kids.
It used to be that a student who made a stupidly inappropriate remark was actually taught a lesson: what you said was wrong, this is why it was wrong, if you say it again you will be punished by X. With the dawning of the era which gave us the horriffic phrase "school shooting", administrations around the country have been under tremendous pressure to do something. "Take away all their rights, they're just kids, but keep my little Johnny Racist-Bigmouth safe from 'school shootings.'"
So, as more "normal" kids who screw up once are pulled from the schools, and as the complaints pile on from their suffering families, administrators might begin to see that they've been a bit heavy-handed. Perhaps point out that if your kid had simply gone off and slugged the other kid, he'd have gotten a five-day suspension for fighting. But verbally returning a threat in an already hostile situation makes him a potentinal murderer who must be expelled? Point out the inequity in their policies. Have them point out where in your school's policy it says "threatening language == expelled." Get in their faces, and don't give up. It shouldn't take a lawyer, (which simply turns off the ordinary people who make up your school board) but an outraged parent can actually make a difference.
Your first step in approaching your school board is to educate yourself on their written policies. Find out what their justification was for expulsion. Then, at the meeting, step one would be to sympathise with their position of trying to keep school safe. Next, demonstrate what you've personally done to teach Sean that murderous threats are not appropriate responses. (Perhaps have Sean demonstrate proof of completion of an "anger management course") Finally, attack the inequity of their policies. Point out that they're promoting physically violent solutions over verbal responses. Hopefully, you can get him reinstated after the next meeting.
John
zero tolerance for zero tolerance... please (Score:3)
You ask most teachers, and I say it all the time -- the kids in middle school and high school today are one of the hardest-working, focused, and caring generations in anyone's memory. And they manage to accomplish this under one of the most paranoid, demanding climates that anyone has had to face -- I've often said that I'd love to go back to college but I would never go to high school in 2001.
I understand security. But to expel someone from school for a joke or possession of aspirin with intent to relieve pain, or to have someone arrested for something found out third hand... that's ridiculous.
I sometimes wonder how teenagers these days will grow up. With all that they can do, they have the potential to change the world the way their Baby Boomer parents couldn't; we GenXers tried to do it, but as much as we tried the Boomers called us slackers and have so far not really taken us seriously. But with the atmosphere they're put in, I'm afraid they might just get beaten down and sucked into the system... just like their parents. And that would be a tragedy.
/Brian
Re:Public education has serious problems (Score:4)
There is a bigger problem with homeschooling, though: hubris. People tell me I'm a pretty smart guy, and over the years I've learned better ways to train people (my innate people skills are pretty grotesque). However, the problem that comes up is that the person who chooses to homeschool can't be guaranteed to be an effective teacher no matter how good the materials are. And if you're trying to maintain a specific set of values, that may seriously affect the value of the curriculum (creation vs. evolution comes to mind as being the most likely problem).
I simply don't believe that the majority of people are qualified to be effective home teachers. That's not to say there aren't major problems in the public schools -- I have almost as much contempt for the far left as I do for the far right because of issues like abuse of antidiscrimination statutes, and (as any Massachusetts teacher will tell you) standardized testing is a lousy substitute for comprehensive personal assessment of achievement. But the real answer is taking schools out of the hands of politicians and putting the responsibility on the teachers (at least those who aren't hopelessly jaded by years of poor funding, etc) to run them. That's what they're trained to do; maybe if we let them do their jobs as they see fit (or at least as they were trained) we'd see an improvement?
/Brian
A few things though.. (Score:4)
I understand the problem and I feel sympathy for the father and the kid, but that last line was just too much for me. If we are going to put people in boxes and label them, we`re just as guilty as the taggers that put kids through their misery. Not knowing slashdot is not a crime, btw.
IMHO making a model out of the father and the kid of 'what essentially is wrong with the system' is A) not very empathically, let alone very intelligent in regard to the child and B) will not change anything. I know the father asked the question directly, but nonetheless the answers he will find here will be good theory but poor practice. The answer to all the social problems must be found in the attention parents/government and society devote to raising their kids, 10 or 20 years AGO. Our social economic model is becoming very child unfriendly and we have to make exceptions to laws in order to protect and sustain the natural growth and education process of our children. Any good programmer knows the raised red flag, signaling that the design of such a system is flawed. Slashdot can`t ever dream to fix that with a good tasty discussion.
If I were that father I would probably not have aired this so much, but I would also have tried to pull my son out of the system just like he did. My guess is that this kid will now be shielded from the terror inflicted on his psyche, and I`m afraid unless he learns to face and deal with his 'opponents' successfully, we won`t quickly recover from what`s happened to him. What he needs is something to excell in, and a bit of vocabulary and clues about how to cope with the pests.
If slashdot is all about free speech and free attitude, then the above statement is essentially wrong imho.
Re:The ACLU? (Score:4)
If it is a clear case of the school overreacting (remember, as with all Katz articles, we are only getting one side here... he's an advocate, not a journalist), then he would have a chance of either an interested lawyer taking the case for little or no fee, or prehaps a civil-rights group getting behind him (although some of those groups are really only interested in "show trials" to get them into the press). I would not bet the farm on it, but it could happen.
Still, if the kid was mine, the first thing I would do is teach him about firearm safetey... The article says he was pretending to load a gun in order to intimidate the bullies. Fooling people into thinking that you are preparing to fire a weapon is a very good way to get killed.
Anyway, the father says he can not afford a lawyer... I disagree. If he really thinks he has a case, he can't afford not to get a lawer! The cost of private school (or the time spent home-schooling) is huge. It says that he is a slashdot reader, so... Sir, if you are reading this, TALK TO A LAWYER. Even if you are not going to hire one, a good civil-rights lawyer can at least advise you as to whether you have a case or not. A brief consultation session would probably cost you very little (if anything), and you might learn about options that you did not know you had.
Seriously... don't bother with legal advise from a bunch of slashdot posters like me. Talk to somebody who knows the law, and knows what your choises really are.
And don't call the guy with his ad above the urinal at your favorite bar. Good lawyers don't need to advertise, because they are booked solid from word-of-mouth only. Talk to people you know and try to find a lawyer that is reccomended by somebody you trust.
More information (Score:4)
I'll pass along these semi-relevant links...
McKinney Independent School District home page [mckinneyisd.net].
Here are some media releases from that school district (18 months ago)... a bomb threat [mckinneyisd.net] and, on a separate occasion, two students were arrested for pulling the fire alarm [mckinneyisd.net].
Interestingly, in the case of the fire alarm arrests, the school superintendent said:
Even though this situation turned out to be a hoax, we took the threat very seriously and initiated the proper precautions. Instructional time was not interrupted anywhere in MISD
No word if those students were allowed to continue at the school.
A (probably rhetorical) question (Score:4)
Sean was allegedly bullied and harassed until he reached the point where he "snapped" (that was hardly a snap, IMO). Now the father is talking to the school.
What was the father doing while Sean was being bullied?
Did he go to the school then? Did he report the bullying? Did he demand that the bullies (if they actually touched Sean) be charged with assault? Whatever you may think of Texas criminal justice, there are still laws against assault, you know.
Only now that Sean is in trouble does the father bring up bullying and harassment. Apparently, the father didn't think it was much of a problem for his son to be subjected to this before.
Am I the only person who wonders just how much "bullying" Sean was really subjected to?
If my son is ever put in Sean's position, I don't think I'll wait for him to "snap" before I intervene.
That's what fathers are for.
Too bad they are not allowed (Score:4)
The district specifically prohibits students from bring recording devices to campus. In fact a few students at another school (in another southern California district) brought a video camera into class to prove how awful the teachers were. They made a joint out of oregano and smoked in it the back and video taped it. They released the tape to the public just to show how they *could* have gotten away with smoking pot in class. The district had a similar rule and had the student's suspended for it. Mind you they were not suspended for smoking, but for bring and using a recording device.
Let Them Drop Out (Score:4)
Hmm, I'm not doing that justice. Here's a link [weeklystandard.com]. It's worth a look.
For the goat paranoid (capriphobic?), it's:_ 6_29_01 /toby_feat_6_29_01.asp
http://www.weeklystandard.com/magazine/mag
Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.
Once again.. (Score:3)
*sigh*
Re:What is a Slashdot? (Score:5)
Fire away!...
More ACLU Info (Score:3)
demising system of abuse (Score:4)
Educational systems out here in the US are slowly turning into a battle zone, so there's little wonder why words were taken so harsh, take for example this "infant" who was suspend for horseplaying with a paper gun. [ccrkba.org]
IMHO little is being done to educate kids by way of showing them the dangers of their actions, suspension is not the key, as there are many students who love the idea of being suspended and not having to go to school. Instead of taking them away, more should be done, to show them what dangers weapons possess, the psychological dangers of being bullied, and bullying someone else. This sense of going to school as if it were a fashion show or sorts seems to also be a problem when it comes to teens. School is the foundation for learning, in order to get ahead in life, sure friends are great, but friends won't be around to pay the bills in the long run. The system is not there to cater to the needs of a teenager who's idea of school is a social club, it's there to teach, not to satisfy the personal needs of an individual.
Sure one can empathize with the feelings of the teen when its stated that officials are appealing to the recent tightening of rules from pressure, but can you blame the parents? You can take away one bad apple before he snaps and save your children, or you could wait until the ticking timebomb explodes... Personally I would want my kid safe. Doing this would possibly cause more harm than it would help. What should be done is, parents of both the kids should get together along with the kids to work out the differences. Parents who leave the system to "raise" their children as well as teach them, are just as much to blame as the kids are.
This surely can be attributed to parents who have little time to spend with their kids for whatever reason, work, stress, etc. More should come out of the parents of these kids, instead of the parents using the system as a scapegoat.
psychologisticallyafied [antioffline.com]
Re:Home school, but don't JUST home school (Score:4)
Re:A (probably rhetorical) question (Score:5)
What was the father doing while Sean was being bullied?
For some reason, I doubt Patrick knew his son was being bullied, or at least to what extent. Bullied kids generally don't run crying to their parents, you know. Especially at 16. And especially individualistic kids. In my experience, that kind of kid will rather attempt suicide or burst out in another way (snapping at the bullies, assaulting them, ...) than ask for advice to their parents.
From Sean's point of view, involving his parents would have made the situation worse, actually. The bullies would have had another round to shoot at him, metaphorically speaking.
There's also the generic idea that kids have to surmount social pressures. Kids have to grow some thick skin if they want to survive in the real world. Over-protecting your child is not a very good idea, and knowing where to draw the line between protection and over-protection is a difficult task.
Let's be realistic here. Bullying is a constant of all school systems in the world, it is something you've got to acknowledge. Two kids thrown together will first fight, then maybe develop a friendship. Homo humani lupus and all that.
Don't blame the father.
- Sylvain.