What Certifications are Valuable in Today's IT? 185
ganjadude asks: "I am a twenty-something who took the CCNA classes back in 2001. College at the time was not an option, so I am mainly self-taught in the field. I was wondering if there were others on Slashdot who took this route, and what certifications they have found will best further their careers. Does college matter in the security field anymore, or are certifications the way to go?"
What certifications would you recommend as the most pertinent in today's IT market?
A Few to Note (Score:5, Informative)
I think in order to get good answers from people, you need to break down what division IT is. I know the CISSP is very important to my employer due to a lot of our apps requiring major security. If you're a glorified secretary making powerpoints with click-actions then maybe "Microsoft Office Power User" is right down your alley? What job are you looking for? IT is a HUGE and now diverse term. It could mean everything from networks to programming to simply moving hardware.
That's a shame, with a name like 'ganjadude' I think you would have enjoyed college quite a bit.
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(Emphasis mine)
Just wanted to point out that this doesn't hold true for every employer. If you enjoy working for a PHB, go ahead and get those certs. In my case, the MOPU landed me a very decent p
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Now please hand in your geek card.
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Since he's posting on slashdot, it's implied that he has a geek card. Since he doesn't know what a PHB is, it's understood that he must have obtained his geek card fraudulently. Hence, his geek card is being taken away because he doesn't merit one.
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He might be a noobie or an accidental terrorist -- uh, tourist -- who wondered in from the cold. You never know.
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Re:A Few to Note (Score:5, Informative)
Having said that, the credentials open up a lot of doors to interviews. However, once you get the interviews, you still have to prove the work experience and knowledge. The only places that accept credentials without verifying knowledge are companies I do not want to work for.
Bottom line: Certifications help you to rise to the top in the first cut. Work experience, personal skills get you through the second cut. In depth knowldge gets you the job. Business skills get you the promotions.
Ignore the certs if you want, but you'll have a harder time getting the interviews.
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I been in a few contracting situations where I show up with bunch of technicians to do a one-day job and I got treated with more respect since I was only the one who had certifications. Then again, maybe it was my ability to read the instructions. One place was doing a Token Ring to Ethernet network conversion. Each tech was supposed to remove the Token Ring cable and plug the Ethernet cable into the motherboard NIC. The t
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In our architecture and infrastructure practice, certifications are huge (and probably required, although don't quote me on that). So if you are going into networking, make sure you do the typical certs (A+, etc.) That is
Re:A Few to Note (Score:4, Interesting)
were the best thing in the world. Sadly, most of the people thet hired
with 'Certifications - you name the cert' were simply test takers.
We replaced EVERY one of those people within 2 months of their employment.
WE ended up doing the work THEY were supposed to be able to handle.
They can line their bird cages with certs.
Re:A Few to Note (Score:4, Informative)
Such billing differentials may or may not roll down to your salary.
They're only important to you as a CONsultant because you're less likely to have to burn bench time if you've got more certs, because you can be placed in different roles on different projects.
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> Solutions Developer
> fun of those certifications over and over and over again. I don't know
> if they are jokes but from what I hear, it's a stupid idea to pay for them.
The Microsoft certifications, in general, have really been devalued by people trying to cash-in on marketplace demand. But even the less stringent ones, like MSCD, have some value in terms of employment.
But you
Easy (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, college still matters (Score:5, Informative)
In some jobs, especially in larger companies, there's a ceiling, you can't be promoted above a certainl level without a degree.
And yes, if you want to be a consultant, the contacts and the prestige of being associated with a well-known university are worth an awful lot, like it or not.
In computer security you need to stay ahead. Certifications use a course curriculum which was set maybe a year, two years, even three or more years ago and updated; with a certification you'll always be behind the curve, ever so slightly. You need to learn how to be on top of reasearch, be comfortable reading research reports and know how to follow and understand citations. So there's a whole cultural thing that you may need to be part of.
Yes, all if this is vague and hazy, and all of it is long term. By the time there's a concrete need for it, by the time you lose out on a contract or are passed over for promotion, and realize you needed a degree, you won't have one
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I live right next to a university, so I see college graduates everywhere. I try to tip them well...
Seriously, while some people learn how to learn and reason from their university experience, I'd hardly consider it the general case. In particular, those who are self-taught may find the real educational advantages to be minimal. The social and networking advantages are usually more tangible. That's why I have a problem with:
In some jobs, especia
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When I went to university the tuition, food and housing were all paid for by the government. Probably I wouldn't have gone, otherwise. You have to look at the promotion issue holistically -- we need to reduce the cost of education so that a greater proportion of people can benefit from it. Fighting the "old boy network" and the idea tha
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The better candidate. That might be the college grad or it might be the person with 4 years experience but without learning more about each, it's impossible to tell.
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I take passion over a paycheck hunter anyday. I can always teach a passionate person.
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Going into debt while going to school is not necessary for a 4 year degree. In California, for example, most people can get enough grants that their tuition at public schools is free. Then, on top of that, you can trade your subsidized loan money for work-study money, which puts a little bit of cash in your pocket and probably pays for your rent too. And seriously, most on-campus jobs are banal, have good pay, and are designed so that you can study while working.
And then there's community college. Did you
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I don't mean to sound elitist, but you couldn't get above a C for the consumption and regurgitation of facts in most of my college courses. In fact, most of the A-level students tended to be not so much bright or insightful as extremely methodical, clearheaded and logical, even in the humanities. Hell, in my case, I think not taking any formal logic or rhetoric courses was why I could never push my GPA into honors territory, no matter how hard I tried.
I don't buy predestination in academia, nor do I think
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Liam
MCSE + A+ (Score:5, Insightful)
Also I had no job experience in IT at the time and didn't go to college. I figured the certifications would be a way to enter the field yet I was wrong.
I am older now with some college as I continue to go back to school and the labor market is improving. With minimal certifications you can work at geeksquad or some help desk position for as much as $14/hr today to start out. I now repair computers but this came after a few years of taking bad jobs and getting my associates. But get your degree if you want to go anywhere. Colleges today have a record number of students in them compared to the past. Employers are taking note and requiring degrees for everything. The babyboomer generation only had %24 of those with 4 year degrees. Today generation Y has %70+ attending college!
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A+, Network+, MSCE, and RHCE certifications don't carry much weight with people who are really qualified to judge the difficulty of the examination process, but they do provide an easy way
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Re:MCSE + A+ (Score:4, Insightful)
I dont have a college degree, no certifications and I have managed to keep a job in the IT industry for over 25 years, by the way I work for one of the largest outsourcers there is. How? network (who you know gets you a job), learn (what you know keeps that job), adapt (do the job that needs to be done, not the job you want to do), expect nothing but give everything (expectations only lead to disapointment, you work they pay you, you are even on that account, a little unpaid overtime at crunch time goes an extremely long way). In the end an employer will value you as an employee if you add value to that company. And unfortunately adding value usually entails doing the mundane, boring and unglamorous work that, that company has to offer.
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(C'mon think about it... it really is funny...")
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That would depend on where the employer is based. My friend in France just got a 8.000,00$ raise. (That's $8,000.00 in the English (American) style.)
It's entirely possible that %10 is the 'proper' way of writing 10% somewhere...and since we should not assume that the job seeker is in the US...
JON
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Here's a tip: Try switching your XP langauge to "English (Trinidad)". See what happens to the currency settings.
Here's a second tip: English was widely spoken before America was discovered by white people. Thanks for joining the party, but you are a little late to start defining things for the rest of the English world...
JON
Tough Call (Score:2)
as a recent college graduate with a degree in computer engineering, i found it difficult to find a job (i did, eventually, but i had a lot of frustrating interviews). why? because the philosophy of my degree, and i've found its similar among the same program in different schools, is that i'm taught to be an engineer. i'm taught to think well, and to be able to learn easily. i used a lot of languages, did a lot of things (with both hardwa
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Except placement firms like TekSystems.
security related certifications (Score:3, Informative)
The CISSP [isc2.org] is pretty much considered the gold standard of security generalist certifications. CISSPs rarely hurt for jobs for long.
If you're interested in something Linux related, you may want to look at Red Hat's Certified Security Specialist program [redhat.com]. To get it, you need to complete the RHCE first (which looks good on a resume in and of itself), followed by an additional three exams covering network security, distributed authentication, and SELinux. Each exam is offered by itself, or on day five following a 4-day intensive course. Not exactly for the faint of heart, though, so if you're focusing on network level security without a lot of system administration, you'll probably want to give it a miss.
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Now, let me tell why I'm very sceptical of this: We do not have a working bug tracking system (be it an application or paper based). In bug trackin I include the entire process ;-) of reporting it, evaluate/cla
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As for the bug tracking thing... are you guys using any of the Rational toolset? If you are, I predict that it's only a matter of
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Phew! That's lucky, then. Off you go.
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Right. Which is why they're always in demand: anything that's wrong is never their fault. :)
More seriously, that's part of the nature of the beast. They're usually brought in as auditors for big o
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.NET Programmer here (Score:2)
well... (Score:2)
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No way to know (Score:3, Insightful)
Me, I'm a UNIX admin with a MS in Engineering, no certifications and completely self taught. I've never (knock on wood) been out of a job, and right now I'm working with a bunch of people who put more value on what I could do and how I worked with a team than what certifications I (don't) have.
A friend of mine is a great Windows admin. He knows his Active Directory stuff well and all the arcane Exchange best practices like the back of his hand. He has multiple MS certs and works in a shithole. The last place he interviewed at, everybody on the team loved him but when his resume got to the VP he threw it away because he doesn't have a college degree. Threw it away. Over the objections of all the people who actually talked to him.
So, given that, gather a few of the cheaper certifications you can to get your foot in the door with the ignorant. They won't impress people who really know what the story is, but it will get you in the door to talk to them and impress them with what you really know.
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But he's probably better off for it. Seems to me that the VP is obviously someone who doesn't value the input of his staff, and doesn't make sure he has the best information before making a decision. Not the kind of person I'd want to work under (though I'm in that boat a
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It also seems that there are a few people, who because they DO have a degree, look down on those who have the relevant experience in the field but do not have a degree.
Seems to be either a case of class ego (they consider people without degrees "less worthy" of employment) or a misplaced sense of value.
I mean i can understand that earning a degre
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Although in my case, most times I don't even get a chance to get an interview and I'm stuck in a rather crappy job.
Hindi, Sanskrit (Score:2)
Business management. (Score:2)
Don't overlook the small stuff... (Score:2)
I have a friend who won't hire anyone, not even a database admin, unless they have an A+ cert (or something eqiva
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If I have an MCSA, CCNP, Linux+, Security+, Server+ and some company wants to piss and moan about my not having an A+, I'll go elsewhere. But then I do live in a worker's market right now.
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Atleast in my situation (Score:4, Interesting)
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I consider the time I spent in college to be very valuable - it opens many doors for me, it helped me with two care
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Of course, $25/hour is a lot in some places. If he's in a cheap location, and you're in, say, NYC or LA and earn even $75/hour, in the end, he wins with the $25. Especially if quality of life counts. Nothing lowers your real hourly wage like a three hour commute.
99.999% of Certs are completely worthless (Score:2, Insightful)
If you missed the Dilbert about, 'I summon the powers of certification'... go find it, it hit this right on the nose.
Hands on, reading the f*ing manual, figuring it out in YOUR network situation, calling tech support, etc. is better, cheaper and more worthwh
DEPENDS... (Score:2)
Want to further your DBA career... look to Oracle/IBM
Networking.. CCIE and it's various flavors (R&S, Security, SP, VOIP, SAN). IMHO this is one of the best as it requires you to pass a LAB exam in addition to the written. (BTW, the lab used to be TWO days and if you didn't pass the first day, you couldn't come back. Also, proctors would often 'break' your setup during lunch
No (but yes), and no. (Score:2)
Let me put it this way - College won't teach you to think like a geek. It gives someone who already has the right mindset a huge toolbox with which to work. If you need to ask "should I go to college or take a cert", go to college.
That said, you can still graduate college an idiot. Even in the engineering disciplines. Certs demonstrate to a potential employer that a particular group has accepted your proficiency
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I think the real question is 'Can I get away with just certs, or do I -need- a college degree?'
I definitely agree that colleges don't teach people to think like a geek. But then, they couldn't teach me to think like an artist either, so it's all relative. 'How to solve problems' and 'How to be creative/artistic' have got to be the hardest things to teach, e
Certified==Underqualified (Score:3, Interesting)
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I dunno, it seems like if you submitted a resume that said:
"I'm new to the computer industry, but I'm such a totally confident, skilled, and versatile programmer that I didn't go to college or even bother to get any certifications!"
That wouldn't fly too well. Employers usually want some kind of third-party verification that an applicant knows what they're doing. A cert can
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When I'm interviewing somebody for a position they do have to have something to prove. A cert, depending on which cert, lends a little 3rd party credibility to that. But you're still going to have to convince me. Certs also help where you end up in the pile, If I'm interviewing you for a J2EE position, the bozo with the SCBCD and/or SCWSCD will end up higher in the pile than somebody with similar qualifications. So I don't know where you want to end up in the stack or how competitive you are for jobs, but a
Thinking like an engineer! (Score:2)
But businesses are not driven by the techies.
HR? They have no way to prioritize the
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Have MSCE and had CCNA (which expired last month). Certs please the HR department and can get you a toehold. Certs are also good for standing up to non-IT managers that think they know a thing or two about IT and want to make decisions on behalf of IT. "Talk quietly and carry a big gun". Don't question them on thier business knowledge, but do question them on thier IT knowledge.
However, it's knowing your shit gets you onward and upward.
Rule of thumb: A cert is worth a year or two when y
Dive into the field and it doesn't matter. (Score:3, Insightful)
Certs are a nice bump when the guy looking doesn't know what they need at all. College is useful b/c it shows you can complete a long term project. Good professional projects are their own certification (another reason I like project work). Being able to speak lucidly on working X problems through with Y technology and Z constraints is the most useful point to any employer and many will recognize that.
That said, if you don't know what you want to do, certs show that you know the domain of a technology. MS certs are not as useless as they used to be and are probably the most marketable. Just, never, never, never put your certifications at the top of your resume. As a rule of thumb, if the certs are the thing you are most proud of, I don't need to read the rest.
5 year old CCNA (Score:2)
You got a CCNA 5 years ago and feel that qualifies you to work in the security field?
The short answer is that college does matter. Often, the stuff you learn in college doesn't matter but if you want to work in the corporate world then people like to see that piece of paper. Also, the CISSP is the hot cert to get now. Keep in mind that it has many prere
People Skills Cert. (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of these posts are utter nonsense. If you have a college degree, even if it's not in the branch of technology that you're applying for, and even if you didn't go to the best college, it doesn't matter what certifications you have. The only thing that matters is WHO you know.
If you have been friendly to recruiters, to professors, and to peers/colleagues, then one of them will suggest you for a job, and you will get it, no matter how unqualified you are. I speak from experience. Why?
Because a smart person can be trained to do anything, but a jerk will always be a jerk (for the most part). If an employer can find out that you aren't a jerk ahead of time, then you're gravy.
I worked as musician when I came out of a good college with my CS degree. I finally broke into CS because the guy I was interviewing with happened to have been a poker buddy of my father's ... 15 years ago. Major coincidence, but since my father had a good rep, he thought that I would be ok too. In less than 2 years following that, my salary went up by $15k.
So, quit worrying about your certification, nerds. Worry about your people skills.
Apologize for low-end certs (Score:2)
Lower-end certs hurt you with techies. Most of us think that the lower-end certs are goten by people who cannot get jobs, and people who cannot get jobs are people who don't blow away prosspective employers or have working friends who can help them in, or who do have working friends whom they do not impress.
That means, if you have a cert in A+ or Security+ or
We are hiring right now (Score:2)
I have no certs, nor am I interested in them. I have 2 degrees, a BSCS and an MBA.
The only guy around here who had a bunch of certs also had a degree, and ended up on Dateline. Now he is waiting for his court case to come up, and he doesn't work here anymore.
So, as far as we are concerned ---> Certs = loser
YMMV.
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The only cert that matters (Score:2)
Certifications are meaningless.... (Score:3, Interesting)
List your experiences, and areas on knowledge.
In most cases that's as good as or better than college / certifications. If someone out there won't even interview you because you don't have a college degree, or certifications, then they are an idiot, and you wouldn't want to work for them anyway.
I've been continuously employed in enjoyable and enriching positions (2 for the entire 20 year period). It took me all of 3 days to find a new position when I tired of the old company.
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Really?
Continuing education in what? Knitting 101?
If you're resume shows evolving skillsets - ie - Solaris 2.4, 2.5, 2.6, 5.7, 5.8, 5.9, 5.10, AIX 3.3, 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, 5.0, 5.1, 5.2, etc... That's continuing education in an appropriate fiel
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I didn't seem to have any difficulties, and as I stated, my job is very rewarding. If I had to work for idiots, it sure as hell wouldn't be.
When the HR person is doing the filtering, they'd damned well better be doing according to the specs put there by the manager requesting the position. If the manager knows what they're doing, they're looking for experience. The job listing will state "X years of college, OR equivelent experience levels".
Any of the security ones (Score:2)
At least the Canadian federal and provincial governments love them
--dave
How about a certificate of literacy? (Score:2)
I look at CVs by the bucketload and the limiting factor on how many I can interview is without doubt articulacy and literacy. The American's aren't bad at all, at least not on their actual CVs, but the Europeans and developing nations REGARDLESS of first language write something in between 'semi-literate English with random capitalization and punctuation' and 'word salad'.
The average quality of spelling, grammar, and above all intelligibility is actually higher on Slashdot, and I'm not interviewing for McJ
Knowledge is power, but experience is golden (Score:3, Informative)
The next most important thing is to understand the hiring process. If you are employed, look at the process itself about how you got hired, and how they hire others in the IT department. HR people hire differently than a IT manager, start-ups have different priorities than Fortune 500 companies. For a resume to get past a HR desk on an advertised job, realise it is one of hundreds if not thousands of resumes in the pile. The first cut is a broad quick cut intended to weed out the random and boiler plate submissions. Most IT managers want to look at no more than 20-50 resumes to make their own short list of who to interview. If you get an interview in my experience it tends to come down to making sure you did not lie, and seeing if you would be a good fit with the existing staff and manager. I've seen good candidates not hired because they were more like a hippie and the group had a bunch of ex-military employees already, so the manager wasn't confident that they would gel. A 40 year old security expert with a MBA may be past over by a 32 year old security manage who is self-taught, if he feels his job security threatened.
I prefer (4 year) university degrees for two reasons: a) commited 4 years to learning about one subject, this weeds out a lot of people who just expect to be paid lots of money because they say they are in IT - for a career level job I want someone with a passion for technology. b) They have more general (theorical) knowledge which makes migrating to new technology easier / quicker for because in my experience they have a better understanding of the foundations of what the change is about, and are more experienced at learning as a skill onto itself. The candidate is not as limited to button-ology style learning. Neither of these are exclusive to university education, but in my own experience more frequently found in someone with a four year degree in Computer Science or similar area (Math, Physics, Pre-Law, Philosophy, Music, Engineering).
For a computer security career, I would seriously recommend a degree, because it is a rapidlly changing field, including some programming experience, some business or management knowledge / skills, and you need on-the-job IT experience to form a well tuned BS detector (from vendors, managers, users, and infrequent attackers).
For certificates, look at the SANS' various certs for an idea of what people are looking for, but whether they are worth the cost is another question I can't answer.
A lot of employers... (Score:5, Funny)
Paranoia, Schizophrenia, Dissociative Disorder... (Score:2)
They can be good, don't go overboard (Score:2)
If you get 10 certifications, that may raise a red flag to someone who may decide you're just a test taker and not even bother with you.
Engineering (Score:2)
Cisco certs (Score:2)
Secondly, the CCNA is only good for 3 years, so if he had taken and passed the CCNA test, then he's 2 years expired unless he either renewed it or went on to a Professional level certification (CCNP, CCDP, CCVP, CCSP etc.).
A CCNA would be just the first step, with the Cisco Certified Security Professional as the next logical step if he wants to stick with Cisco gear.
Cisco spells it all out on their site:
http://www.cisco.com/web/learning/ [cisco.com]
Contractor experience (Score:2)
That said I h
Please do not focus on certs (Score:2)
Certifications filled a gap then.
Now though, that is no longer the case.
Many universities, including my own, have partnered with the NSA.
http://www.nsa.gov/ia/academia/caeiae.cfm [nsa.gov]
My professors have included the head of the NSA's red team, another senior IA guru at the NSA, and senior network defense people from DoD branches. I've met professors from other schools at conferences with the NSA partnership, and I was similarly pleased
Forget Certs (Score:2)
My favorite is an applicant for a position we had - a student applied, very
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The certification process is far more complicated than you seem to think. First of all, just to qualify for the exam you need to have a proven 4-year experience in IT security (or 3-year + college degree). Then if you pass the exam, which is not that easy, you s
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