IBM's Cell Processor — Not Just for PS3 Anymore 184
TechFreep writes to tell us that IBM has released a new line of QS20 Blade Servers based on the processor they developed for the Playstation 3. From the article: "Today IBM announced a new line of high-powered QS20 Blade Servers intended for use in seismic research, encryption, digital image rendering and military surveillance applications. Each QS20 will include two nine-cored Cell Processors clocked at 3.2Ghz apiece, which were developed along with Sony and Toshiba for Sony's upcoming Playstation 3 console. As Playstation 3 isn't scheduled for release until November, the QS20 will mark the first application in which the highly-touted Cell will be available to consumers."
Nothing for you to see here. Please move along. (Score:5, Funny)
Lost in the noise is the dying Sun. (Score:5, Interesting)
IBM already has a CMP. Both AMD and Intel will soon have CMPs. Here, CMP does not mean duo-core; CMP means at least 4 cores.
The window of opportunity for Sun has now closed.
What is ingenious about IBM is the fact that IBM is essentially using the R&D in its consumer-electronics division (that builds processors for game consoles and other toys) to advance R&D in the business-oriented high-performance-processor/high-end-server division. Building electronics for toys has actually strengthened non-toy products.
When will Mattel and Hasbro start selling their own supercomputers?
Re: (Score:2)
Mattel has already tested the computer waters [intellivisionlives.com]
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Cool. A supercomputer that turns into a robot OR a jet-fighter!
Re: (Score:2)
It may be ingenious, but there's only one division (STD, I kid you not, unless they've renamed it again...)
Re: (Score:2)
Nope; Cell and Niagara are optimized for totally different uses.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
This is nothing new. It has been part of IBM's business model for years to take orders for projects, complete the projects, and then turn around and use the resultant products in their own hardware. Take the powerpc 970 for example; made f
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=19 423 [theinquirer.net]
It's an SMP beast.
So you could run a traditional OS on it, and all the cores would be used if needed. On a Cell, there is a single PowerPC core, which is a bit underpowered with no out of order execution for example. The bulk of the processing power is in the SPEs. But these have a diff
Now imagine a... (Score:3, Funny)
Oh, wait. I suppose this [slashdot.org] will be close enough.
Different markets (Score:2, Funny)
But I do hope it works. This kind of thing would be great for neural implants on the way to the singularity.
Re:Different markets (Score:5, Insightful)
This chip will be to the Pentium what the Pentium is to the 6502 - once the tool chain is understood by software designers. Actually, better, because Cell architecture uses way less gates than pipelining for way more throughput at the same clock speed and feature size. Hell, I might even retire my Sun Niagras.
Sure it won't run Windows very well, but hell, Windows doesn't run very well anyway, and I Don't Care (TM).
Yes, it does run Linux. What about NetBSD?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
OK, lemme see if I get this right...
I buy a PS3. Hook it to the net. Leave it on 24/7. Your nuke simulating supercomputer comes over the net & scams spare cycles off of me a la SETI@Home.
Did I miss anything?
Re: (Score:2)
He was implying that spending $1bn+ designing and fabbing an agressive design like Cell is only possible if you have some high-volume consumer product to put it in. Otherwise, it'd just be too expensive.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Fully Open Source Linux? (Score:2)
On the PS3? I believe that when it is reported by independent reviewers. Because it would be a radical break from the current business model for console:
1) The console is sold at a loss
2) The console maker recoups the losses from licens fees the game makers have to pay
3) The console is heavily protected against the starting of unlicensed software.
Having an unrestricted
Some games on Linux, then. (Score:2)
Result: Less income for Sony.
And that is what all console manufacturers have tried to avoid so far. Now it is possible that Sony has a different business model this time, or that they are simply not getting it and will have a rude
Re: (Score:2)
Also: The hard
Re: (Score:2)
How's that relevant? I can buy any old keyboard/mouse I want, and in this case, I didn't want any, I wanted it to boot from the network and, if anything, I could SSH in.
Key word here: Format. You seem to imply that you can share the drive between them, but I've heard just the opposite.
And anyway, why ca
Re: (Score:2)
Garh, that's annoying, but at least it's not Linux being bastardized there. Although swapping between a 160 gig Linux homebrew drive and a 20 gig official drive for playing games would be a hell of a lot more annoying than just partitioning it.
Yes, I do. I also know that anywhere else something like this has been tried, there's usually a very good
Re: (Score:2)
I worked for many years designing architectures like this for specialised database operations. I know how powerful this architecture is for certain types of work. I suspect you don't.
as for the person suggesting that I would be using it in a SETI type operations: No, I wont, but I think I know someone who might. (But if I told you, I would have to kill you).
Re: (Score:2)
For example while not planning a game console, NEC is also in Power board as well as Toshiba. I can think NEC cares about their supercomputing division and Toshiba cares about their future media plans.
Those Cell processors they use will not be the same thing Ps3 runs. For example while my Quad G5 (PPC970) 2500 Mhz is fine for pro HD work if nece
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
What features are those? Name some that make it not "a toy" compared to your PowerMac.
The 970 is a Power4 derivative. Power5 is newer.
I'm actually quite excited (Score:5, Informative)
A little tid bit about all that: http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cell/Cell0_v2.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
The dual cell machine costing $18k may be quite cheap for what it can do. Not everything revolves around PC's.
If companies want serious number crunching power it is not unusual to see purchases in the millions.
Re: (Score:2)
Transputer (Score:2)
More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transputer [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:2)
"Consumers" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Producers make a product; distributors and retailers buy it in order to pass it on to someone else; consumers buy it for their own use. The article is saying the QS20 is the first thing people will be able to buy and use that contains a Cell processor.
High availability (Score:5, Funny)
Re:High availability (Score:5, Funny)
Wait... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
What exactly is a blade server?
it is a server with blades [ibm.com].
and here's a link to the IBM press release [ibm.com] because it looks like linking to the source has gone out of style.
Re:Wait... (Score:4, Informative)
it is a server with blades.
That's begging the question. A blade is a modular computer on a board. You team these up into a chassis and have them communicate together and you've got a blade server.
Re: (Score:2)
He had a Tyan motherboard with CPU daughterboards. He could add upto 4 CPUs but he only had 2.
I wonder if Dell Poweredges lined up and interconnected with Ethernet (tm) will qualify as a blade server.
Re: (Score:2)
A blade is a server. Instead of having plugs and wires to connect it to everything else, it has one nice big interface. It slides into an enclosure that provides the interface with everything it needs.
The enclosure will do handy things like handle all that power stuff, provide some integrated administration, hardware management and such, provide cooling and airflow.
Better info (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Wow... wow... We screwed up. Boy, are our faced red! Hehehe.
We're switching back to PowerPC in 2007 then.. Yea..
-- Steve Jobs
Re: (Score:2)
Misleading ... "developed for PS3" (Score:5, Insightful)
I see (Score:2, Funny)
For some reason I haven't figured out yet.
The plan all along... (Score:4, Interesting)
$29/chip x 64k chips = more ops per buck than ever - thanks to the world's gamers...
The problem for both PS3 and the NSA, etc is IBM's 10-20% yields. PS3 for Christmas? They better get up the curve fast...
BTW - Anyone remember back to when the Soviets used to buy up Ataris and canabilize their chips for sonobouys?
Re: (Score:2)
(You're probably referencing the interview that was on tech sites a few months ago. The write-ups completely misunderstood what was being said.)
Re:The plan all along... (Score:4, Informative)
On an interesting note the Cell chip is approx 250 square mm so taking the 20% option on a 300mm diameter SOI wafer (assume US$1300 for wafer and assembly) the overall cost of the chip is US$23. The fab machines are about $11M each and are capable of producing completed wafers between 25,000 to 35,000 per year. Great if you control the process and IBM, Toshiba and Sony (to a lesser degree) do.
Do a Google search on "Silicon On Insulator" as a starting point.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
BTW - Anyone remember back to when the Soviets used to buy up Ataris and canabilize their chips for sonobouys?
Link?
Now we know... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
http://www.betanews.com/article/Bluray_Causes_PS3_ Delay_in_Europe/1157552739 [betanews.com]
That was why the electronics/optics industry warning them publicly, to end this HD-DVD and BluRay fight in rational way since those lasers are state of the art and not that easy to produce.
How fast *is* it? (Score:2)
I'm confused. Does that make the damn thing 6.4GHz, 28.8GHz, or 57.6GHz?
Re: (Score:2)
no. It's 3.2 GHZ
you don't add clock speeds
Using IBM's Cell Processors in scientific HPC (Score:4, Informative)
The Potential of Science With the Cell Processor
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/
It reference a second article:
Researchers Analyze HPC Potential of Cell Processor
http://www.hpcwire.com/hpc/671376.html/ [hpcwire.com]
This discusses research at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory on using the STI Cell processor for scientific computing. From the article quoting the LBL paper:
"Overall results demonstrate the tremendous potential of the Cell architecture for scientific computations in terms of both raw performance and power efficiency,"
and
"We also conclude that Cell's heterogeneous multi-core implementation is inherently better suited to the HPC environment than homogeneous commodity multi-core processors."
The paper went on to say that while the Cell processor was designed for single-precision 32-bit floating performance but with some simple changes to the design it could be optimized for double precision 64-bit floating performance.
This makes a lot of sense if this is the same Cell processor that IBM is using in their blade servers.
Really cheap, really fast 9 core processors!
An interesting read.
RLH
Its not so highly touted (Score:3, Interesting)
I just hope.. (Score:2)
Consumers (Score:2)
Consumers?! Do you know how much a QS20 will cost you? These are business systems. You'd have to buy both a blade center and a blade.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Playstation 3 (Score:5, Interesting)
I think it's more likely a misstatement in the article than an actual change in what's being produced.
The Cells being produced for the PS3 have one primary processor (PPE) and eight secondary processors (SPE's)--only seven of which need to be functional at 2.8GHz for it to meet Sony's specs--for a total of 9 (or 8 for PS3) 'processors'. Not quite the same thing as 'cores' in the traditional sense of the word.
It's possible that these chips for these new servers are identical on silicon to the PS3 chips, only IBM will not pass them unless all 8 SPE's are functional at the full 3.2GHz clock rate.
Kind of like 386DX vs. 386SX -- instead of throwing away the DX chips that had defective math coprocessors, Intel simply burned out the traces, screened a different label on them, and sold them at discount prices.
Re: (Score:2)
Minor correction, that was 486s, not 386s.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Apple was a tiny bit of IBM's production (Score:5, Interesting)
IBM has oodles of fab capacity. Don't forget Apple has dropped off the queue.
Apple was one of IBM's smallest consumers of PowerPC chips, and always was. The embedded and entertainment market dominates their "queue", and is one of the main reasons the PowerPC series never pushed as hard clock-wise as Intel does; the embedded market sees higher clock speeds as greater power consumption/heat dissipation and more (electronic and thermal) design challenges. When Apple took a hike, IBM didn't shed any tears, and said as much.
I don't have any specific numbers, but I believe Apple's purchases were under 5% of total production. You may say "well, going with Intel was a REALLY stupid idea!" Wrong- before, Apple was "the little fish using embedded-market processors for consumer computers", and the goals didn't match. Now, they're using chips specifically targeted to the markets Apple wants to be in.
Re:Apple was a tiny bit of IBM's production (Score:5, Interesting)
You can't blame anyone for thinking Power architecture, a living legend or empire is dead after Apple moved away, Apple is run by Steve Jobs who is a publicity genius.
I am sure IBM or Freescale will think twice before doing any business with Apple in the future since Apple attacked PowerPC more than Intel etc. ever dared.
They now claim Xeon based Servers are 5x faster than G5 (yes,PPC970) and their fanboys cheering. Fanboys don't make million dollar server purchases though.
I just wonder what happened to second hand value of those $40.000+ Xserve G5 setups after Mr. Jobs and Apple called them 5x slower. Well, that is what you get for choosing a portable audio oriented company for your server setup instead of IBM or Sun.
I think it is IBM and FreeScale dumped Apple not vice versa.
PS: I own Quad G5 and purchased months after Intel announcement.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
What a load of crap. Please cite your reference where Apple claims 5x against a Quad 2.5 GHz G5. On Apple's Mac Pro pages I see: 1.8x, 1.8x, 1.6x, 1.4x and 1.4x on content creation. On SPECInt_rate_base2000 I see 2.1x and on SPECfp_rate_base2000 is see 1.6x.
Apple-Mac Pro-Intel Xeon [apple.com]
Apple dumped PowerPC because IBM couldn't get to 3.0 GHz and they couldn't get to 2.0 GHz with a low power version for notebooks. It isn't complicated and no conspiracy theory is necessary.
Re: (Score:2)
Secondly, here is your "citation":
"And this award-winning UNIX-based server just got a 5x (1) performance boost over the Xserve G5, thanks to quad-core 64-bit Intel Xeon processing. "
http://www.apple.com/xserve/ [apple.com]
They can decide to become iPod manufacturing, fashion toy sell
Re: (Score:2)
Nobody makes million dollar server purchases using PPC970s. Power4 wasn't a CPU that people bought for the core, which is itself quite mediocre in performance. They bought it because of the huge systems (with gobs of mem
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
A chronology might help:
Power4: Moderately crappy core, great system architecture/SMP fabric
PPC970: Power4 minus the great system architecture/SMP fabric plus shitty high-latency chipset.
Power5: Redesigned Power4 fixing many instances of crappiness, with even better system architecture.
Re: (Score:2)
Why? It's the truth. The previous Xserve was using a CPU that had essentially the same core, and only a 15% higher clockspeed, than the original G5s released in 2003. The new Xserve is using a contemporary CPU (with a brand new architecture), and is using twice as ma
Re: (Score:2)
The top 970MP, which is less than a year old, hits 2.5GHz, with 575 SPECint/GHz, and sucks down 100 watts.
That's actually 2.65x better SPECint/watt on the Core 2 side.
Re: (Score:2)
So it's quite normal than Apple didn't sell a lot of PPC.
What would be interesting to know is what share Apple had of the 'high end PPC', I mean who cares about embedded CPU.. I'm sure the volume of Z80 sold is huge, yawn.
Re: (Score:2)
Most of PPC high end processors are used in consoles and those things does 1080p HDTV 3d realtime graphics along with 6 channel minimum positional audio.
I am sure MS Xbox 360 sales and Nintendo already quadrupled total Apple G5 sales. PS 3 coming too and as I said in another story, there are people (including me,if price doesn't change) who will buy PS 3 just for some
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
From "Cell Broadband Engine Architecture", page 39:
4.1.1 Optional Features in PowerPC Architecture, Book I (Required for CBEA) The following facilities and instructions are considered optional in the PowerPC Architecture, but are required for the PPE by the CBEA user mode environment.
SIMD also has nothing to do with SMP (symmetrical multi-processing).
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know if IBM considers SIMD in general obsolete but I do think they don't consider it the best technology for their traditional markets - mainframes and scientific/technical computing. For Altivec in particular it probably doesn't help that it wasn't created by IBM but rather by and for one fairly small customer. If you know otherwise, I'd be eager to read any references you have.
(It would also have been useful to fully read the post you were replying to - you are of course correct in that the SPEs d
Re: (Score:2)
Server admins aren't impressed by "Altivec" like end user impressive terms, they want real spec. That is what IBM does.
Apple even used "Velocity Engine" term. Altivec is an option for the chips, if you decide your server will do lots of vector processing etc, you opt in for it.
Altivec is no where near dead, real coders make use of it. It is Apple's fault (hopefully not intentional) not to come up with something which wil
Re: (Score:2)
It's a shame that Apple computers are the first impression that most people have of the architecture. Slicing and dicing a pSeries 570 gives a much different impression of just what a box like this can do.
Or forget the LPAR; run Gentoo right on the iron. Then but don't blink or you might miss it.
Re: (Score:2)
Look to blueray as the source of PS3 delays.
Re:Not for consumers... (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Consumers consume, even high end (Score:2, Informative)
Depends on which definition of consumers you are using. Taken more literally, even large companies are "consumers". I think the intent of the submitters statement was simply that it would be the first shipping product that would house the cpu. After all, if you were willing to pay the cost, you _could_ purchase it. No different than say a Ferrari Enzo, it's a consumer product, but one in which o
Good Marketing for the Hardware (Score:2)
Servers aren't consumer products so I don't see how this gets consumers any closer to a Cell or any sooner.
The server that runs Fedora core 5 costs $18,000 or so. Like most people, I'm not going to buy a computer that costs so much but it does get me closer to a Cell processor.
Next to a part of a Los Alamos super computer, a $600 PS3 looks like a bargain. Hell, it looks like a bargain next to a "Ready for Vista Ultimate Sucker Edition" computer. I thought the PS3 was interesting as a gaming platform
Re: (Score:2)
Blu Ray "deck" is $999
I have one friend who bought PS2 just because it has excellent DVD playing capabilities (picture quality etc.). It looks like same guy will buy PS3 for Blu Ray. I think the PS2 uses its CPU capabilities to enhance/correct movie.
If they offer WiFi, IMAP etc, why not? I am sure Linux would run too.
$400 less, you get a state of the art CPU, blu ray, real games (bluray has java too) and multimedia. You can "fold@home" t
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Sony plans on developing a toaster with a CELL Processor. It will have DRM and only toast Sony brand bread though which will come in an odd size and cost twice as much as any other bread.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't forget:
- the ToastMan spys on you at night and reports its findings back to Sony
- ToastMax bread soon to compete with Very White Bread (VWB) for dominant market share. Although appearing identical in every way ToastMax is incompatible with VWB. Somehow it holds 60% more peanut butter than VWB, but interestingly init
Re:Does it run (Score:4, Informative)
Regards,
Steve
Re: (Score:2)
There are a couple of companies building small and inexpensive desktop systems based on th
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Motorola joined IBM producing RISC CPU instead of upgrading their 68k line.
I can understand your confusion since Apple and Amiga (via extension board) moved to PPC 603 from Motorola 68k.
I am not a programmer but RISC chips are famous for their reduced registers and commands, to run instructions in less cycles.
Better give you pointer written by real programmers:
http://en.wikipedia.org [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No. It can trace some lineage back to the m88k, though[1], which was an even cleaner design than the 68k. If pushed to pick my favourite CPU of all time, I'd probably have to go for the m88k. It was an absolute joy to work with.
[1] As well as to the IBM POWER chip, of course.
Re:Mac OSX? (Score:4, Funny)
nope.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Quite true, if by "Terrorists" you mean microsoft