HP's Dunn Stepping Down 301
XJHardware writes "Yahoo news is reporting that Patricia Dunn is stepping down from the chair of HP." From the article: "Hurd will retain his existing positions as chief executive and president and Dunn will remain as a director after she relinquishes the chair on Jan. 18. 'I am taking action to ensure that inappropriate investigative techniques will not be employed again. They have no place in HP,' Hurd said in a statement. Dunn apologized for the techniques used in the company's probe, which included 'pretexting' in which private investigators impersonated board members and journalists to acquire their phone records."
Head of Global Ops Too (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Head of Global Ops Too (Score:5, Insightful)
By the way, isn't this sort of thing kind of illegal? Shouldn't people be going to jail?
Re:Head of Global Ops Too (Score:5, Insightful)
Could be radioactive (Score:4, Insightful)
Excuse me? (Score:3, Funny)
Look what happened the last time we put a corporate officer in jail, he had a heart attack. Your jealousy of the rich & powerful is overwhelmingly hateful in its magnitude.
Won't somebody think of the CEOs, oh the horror of it all!!!
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How are they going to send you itemised bills then?
This is why the US needs something like the Data Protection Act. Basically, it is supposed to ensure that the data which companies store is relevant, correct, not kept longer than necessary and only disclosed where appropriate.
It's been blamed by a few companies for doing things wrong in the past, but that's generally because they had lousy policies and hadn't actu
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Your personal info is supposed to be safe in the hands of certain people. Perhaps there need to be more that are held accountable?
Still...maybe it's not enough. You didn't mention this act. Did you even know it existed?
If the populace doesn't know big laws like this there's no way that anyone is going to worry about enforcing them.
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"Supposed" being the key word. That's the clipper chip mindset. Back then we were smart enough to think letting the pigs control the means of production was worse than letting the farmers have control, or at least no better. At least the farmers had a stake in it.
If you want record
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Re:Head of Global Ops Too (Score:5, Interesting)
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From a purely economic standpoint, what you describe is not really true in most societies. On average, 80% of the profit gained from an activity goes to the workers. This has been true for as long as we hav
Re:Why do 10% of the people own and control 90%... (Score:4, Informative)
I have not come up with the perfect solution to this dilemma. As Proudhon also, less famously said, property is also the only real protection against tyranny and is inherently anarchistic because it respects no king or lord. I feel their are two choices, Proudhon's idea of communal control of resources or some form of distributarianism. In communal control there is the plus that the process of deciding on how to use resources is democratic, but without a strong constitution and a system of checks and balances this can lead to a tyranny of the majority. With distributarianism, everyone owns their little portion of the means of production, but who arbitrates this ownership, and how do we ensure that the means are distribuited equitably.
There are many problems with the free market as a system of arbitration. It requires perfect information on the part of all actors to work efficiently. It can not correctly value the costs and benefits of externalities. It does not operate efficiently where the marginal cost of entry into markets is very high (commonly known as a monopoly.) It has no negative feedback cycle to prevent a runaway accumulation of wealth by a few people. The more wealth one has, the easier it is to make more by using your wealth to game the system and ensure their isn't a level playing field. The free market can not think ahead and come up with solutions. It can only say what isn't working, not what might work better, and if what might work better is locked out due to any of the previously mentioned root causes of market failure, we will be stuck with what we have.
We have a system that expects and rewards selfishness. So much so that even though the majority of people have been shown in modern economic experiments to favor fairness and reciprocity over personal gain, they will act selfishly rather than cooperatively because that is what the system rewards. In fact, the system gives free reign to screw over the naturally cooperative (and this is a large part of the reason behind my "bad luck." I'm too nice and too trusting, and I am not willing to sell out that part of myself just to get ahead.)
Remember, your friends, relatives and acquantences are not a random sample of the population. You have probably not met the legions of people for whom the system has not worked, despite their best efforts, so it is no stretch for you to think of those people in the abstract sense, and to believe that they had all the opportunities that you did. It's just easier to think that they are where they are because they are lazy than to feel like you have to change the whole system.
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I'm not talking about giving everyone a free ride, I'm talking about equitable (not equal) access to the means of production. I'm talking about people like Mrs. Hilton, who make up far more of owning class society than you'd like to admit. Working hard doesn't garauntee you shit. Plenty of people work hard and aren't rewarded equitably for it. I just want a level playing field and a fair opportunity. I'm as smart and work as
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You're misinformed. They go to federal "pound me in the ass" prison.
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Give Perkins credit (Score:3)
I agree that the rest of the board, including Hackborn, has some responsibility. But how to get rid of them? I usually withhold my votes, but the big institutions usually vote for the boards.
no credit for perkins (Score:2)
Pretexting?? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Pretexting?? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm rather pleased that they have failed to pull the wool over anyone's eyes, but the fact that the word keeps getting repeated is bothersome. The news outlets should only be using that word in the context of explaining Dunn's lame attempt to cover up for fraud.
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http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/money/pretexti
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Re:Pretexting?? (Score:5, Insightful)
I could write volumes on things that have happened in my career, but this HP debacle takes the cake. And the thing is, they feel entirely in their rights while they were doing it, after they were doing it and on up until they realized that they really had to explain themselves. They are confessing now because they got caught, not because they really felt it to be wrong. Thus are the ills of capitalism.
As a wise man once said: "Capitalism is the notion that evil men, doing evil things, will bring about the greatest good...." Or something to that effect....
Re:Pretexting?? (Score:5, Insightful)
Capitalism does not require people act unethically, illegally or immorally. My fear is that people like you will simply use this situation to "prove" how capitalism is bad (and why whatever brand of economics you prefer is "right"), rather than understand it for what it is: PEOPLE that are bad, and would be just as bad, in any other economic system.
Another pisser is that by blaming capitalism, you are releasing her from fault, as it is "capitalism" that is at fault, and not an overzealous and unethical person, Ms. Dunn. She shares the blame with no one.
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I have no idea what brand of economics you prefer, but your prejudice against capitalism is obvious, and the point. Logic isn't the issue, prejudice is.
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then what? Is he prejudiced because he sees flaws
in a thing? There are flaws in capitalism. It is the best
thing we have found so far, but there are flaws in it.
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(Of course, I don't really "get" this thread anyway. The motivation to do unscrupulous things for the advancement of one's own agenda exists in any system. The only thing capitalism may have provided was a healthy supply of unscrupulous private investigators.)
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And she owns that.
Capitalism has a flaw in that it "prefers" ( as an
emergent behaviour ) people without character for high
positions like this. Because those people will do
whatever it takes, regardless of of ethics or legality,
and that makes more money.
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Winston Churchill put it best: "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of bless
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But why mention capitalism? (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is that you mentioned capitalism, as though you were saying something distinctive about it, or that different economic systems might not have powerful people who think they can get away with being assholes.
Imagine if I went to the zoo and dropped 16-ton weights on all the animals. They all died. Then I said, "The problem with parrots is that they fail to resist a 16-ton weight." It sounds like I'm talking about parrots, but parrots actually have nothing to do with it. The real issue is the
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uuaah, my head asplode.
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But the main difference between capitalism and communism is the difference between an individual working for self gain and an individual working for the greater good.
A true altruist will prefer communism where everybody gets basically equal treatment/salary, etc. But in a real world, communism doesn't work, because there are people like Ms. Dunn, and even people with otherwise good morals are going to work much harder for their own self-gain than for som
It has nothing to do with capitalism (Score:4, Insightful)
Whoever said that was a fool, not a wise man. Capitalism has never been anything to do with right, wrong, good or evil, it's about self interest. It's human nature and will happen no matter what type of society we have. What do you propose as an alternative?
Capitalism is not relevant to the discussion (Score:2)
What? This isn't anything to do with capitalism, it's the political system and the law.
So what's your suggestion to replace capitalism, because it's going to have to force people to part with their goods and services somehow.
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They are not insane. They are smart. It's the sort of thing we common folk could not possibly understand.
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Re:Pretexting?? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd go for "identity theft", personally. It's pretty accurate, but also sounds like Something We Should Fear(TM), as opposed to "pretexting", which sounds Naughty But Only A Little Bit(TM).
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From the linked gsa.gov website:
Pretexting (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Pretexting (Score:4, Insightful)
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Historically you can claim to be anybody you like, so long as it is not with intent to defraud (or hamper a police investigation). Historically, "pretexting" hasn't even been illegal -- laws against it are only on the books in a couple of states and are fairly new. PI's and "investigative journalists", amo
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Or as another poster said, "lying". Or as I thought, "falsely impersonating another", although mine is a bit wordy. Apparently most of us seemed to think the English language already had this one covered, but for some reason the idiodic press thought it was really cool and neat to invent a new word nobody would understand. Or perhaps this word "pretexting" c
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When I first saw it, I figured it was a reference to sending a text message to someone in advance of an actual phone call or in-person meeting - a sort of "super-humanal communication," or possibly Pre-Crime officers SMSing each other about an imminent murder.
There ought to be a law! (Score:4, Informative)
close, the idiotic federal government apparently thought it needed an important sounding new word
There ought to be a law... There is! [ftc.gov]
Pretexting: Your Personal Information Revealed
When you think of your own personal assets, chances are your home, car, and savings and investments come to mind. But what about your Social Security number (SSN), telephone records and your bank and credit card account numbers? To people known as "pretexters," that information is a personal asset, too.
Pretexting is the practice of getting your personal information under false pretenses. Pretexters sell your information to people who may use it to get credit in your name, steal your assets, or to investigate or sue you. Pretexting is against the law.
How Pretexting Works
Pretexters use a variety of tactics to get your personal information. For example, a pretexter may call, claim he's from a survey firm, and ask you a few questions. When the pretexter has the information he wants, he uses it to call your financial institution. He pretends to be you or someone with authorized access to your account. He might claim that he's forgotten his checkbook and needs information about his account. In this way, the pretexter may be able to obtain personal information about you such as your SSN, bank and credit card account numbers, information in your credit report, and the existence and size of your savings and investment portfolios.
Keep in mind that some information about you may be a matter of public record, such as whether you own a home, pay your real estate taxes, or have ever filed for bankruptcy. It is not pretexting for another person to collect this kind of information.
There Ought to Be a Law -- There Is
Under federal law -- the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act -- it's illegal for anyone to:
* use false, fictitious or fraudulent statements or documents to get customer information from a financial institution or directly from a customer of a financial institution.
* use forged, counterfeit, lost, or stolen documents to get customer information from a financial institution or directly from a customer of a financial institution.
* ask another person to get someone else's customer information using false, fictitious or fraudulent statements or using false, fictitious or fraudulent documents or forged, counterfeit, lost, or stolen documents.
The Federal Trade Commission Act also generally prohibits pretexting for sensitive consumer information.
MOD UP! (Score:2)
HP Boise (Score:3, Interesting)
I left HP, Boise during the disaster that was Carly.
Her "I-came-up-from-the-mailroom" speech was enough to make most in the Departmental LaserJet Division to wretch. But, at least she didn't go all Richard Nixon on everyone and send out eaves-dropping goon squads.
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Is that speech listed on this page [hp.com]? I'd be interested in knowing which one it was.
No Big Surprise (Score:4, Funny)
Re:No Big Surprise (Score:4, Insightful)
Two words: Book Deal
This is America, where we celebrate those that do wrong and actually had to make a LAW that says if you murder or rape someone, you can't make money off any books/tv deals (but other crimes, and it's ok). Think about that, that means that people will buy books written by these criminals, and make the criminals potentially RICH, if you don't make it illegal. Might even get a "made for TV movie" out of it.
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Isn't that enough? I fail to see why willful breach of a lot of laws isn't grounds for punishment. I would personally hope that gross invasion of privacy would be punishable as well. Hopefully the aggregate punishments would lead to jail time. The court system is being used to punish file sharers, let's make sure it gets around to the people who illegally spy on their peers as well. If I'm having to pay for this with my taxes, some good
Someone Stop Me! (Score:2)
Urr, isn't this just stating the obvious since she's the one responsible for the inappropriate techniques in the first place. Or at least, she signed off on them in some fashion. Isn't this a little like a thief retiring from thievery so that no more robberies will be committed?
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Dunn will remain as a directo (Score:5, Interesting)
Why is it that I get a visit from the police when I do some good ole' social engineering and get caught? And this woman gets a seat as a director?
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Ehem, because you didn't apologize! And, well, that and being influential and well connected helps you get of the hook. A little apology and thing is forgotten, no prosecution needed!
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Because she paid you to fall. (Score:2)
Why is it that I get a visit from the police when I do some good ole' social engineering and get caught? And this woman gets a seat as a director?
She disclosed their social security numbers and other info but did not commit the fraud herself and claims ignorance. We'll see what the AG does about that but the fall guy "investigator" will be nailed. When someone asks you to do something wrong, just say no.
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Actually, there is. According to this article [yahoo.com]:
I'm as much against trial-by-media as you are, but in this case the woman is wrong-wrong-wrong and IMHO should be charged. I'm sick and tired of this cut-throat, half-ethical way of doing business.
They had to toss her overboard (Score:2)
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I guess... (Score:3, Funny)
Simple way to end Pretexting (Score:2)
They should then refuse, 100% to fax or email the information out.
Change of address? Certainly, after we send out a letter confirming your address change.
Just like when I change my address (or do anything else) with my 401(k), IRAs, and b
Hooray! (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know if it was a King Richard II thing ("Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?") or if it was a cold-blooded decision ("Commander, tear this ship apart, and bring me the passengers... ahem, I mean, dig up anything and everything you can on whoever seems a likely target."), but either way there was no way that HP could have kept any customer or shareholder faith with her remaining at the helm.
What I find interesting is that the Justice department is checking this "pretexting" business out. Are they interested in prosecuting it... or duplicating it?
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It's Henry II, but you've got the quote right.
I doubt it's duplication. They can easily get access to this information anyway with a warrant (and, with the Patriot Act, possibly without a warrant).
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Screw That (Score:2, Insightful)
What did Keyworth really do? (Score:5, Interesting)
At least the slimy mofo George Keyworth who was blabbing to the press got his name slimed.
I'd love to know just what he "leaked" and why you hate him for doing it. The nearest I can tell from reading the Wikipedia, the "leak" was about Fiorina's $42,000,000 severance package which has two HP investors suing HP for violating their own payment caps. If that's all there is, Keyworth is a whistle blower. If you know something, I'd love to hear it.
Some much for an independent board (Score:3, Interesting)
Hurd was probably exasperated, and rightly felt
he had to take the reigns to prevent further
damage to his company, the post-Enron concept
of an independent board has just taken a big
step backward. In the long run this is bad
for shareholders (not just HP shareholders).
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-It effectively removes influence on all but a few major/institutional shareholders--if you own, say, 5,000 shares of company X, good luck having a say in getting incompetent/corrupt members of a board off
-Boards are rarely as independent in practice as they are in theory (i.e. executive bonuses are usually approved with little discussion)
-It's still too easy for people to serve on multiple boards and be subject to major co
Now ... (Score:3, Insightful)
I, for one, welcome ... (Score:2)
Another example of the "Old Boy's Network" (Score:4, Funny)
Anyway, it's just the establishment putting someone down just because they are female and criminal.
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Curiously, I've always felt that board members were inherently criminal
High Crimes (Score:4, Interesting)
They're criminals. If anything, their crimes are worse, because they have more power and do more damage, while requiring more trust.
I find it offensive (Score:4, Interesting)
LYING
Pretexting? It sounds so much nicer, like what a kid would do to talk to their friends on a cell phone. And I blame the press for buying into it and reporting it rather than saying "Patricia Dunn lied to the phone company to fraudulently obtain phone records".
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But then, I am still waiting for the AP and Reuters to call the terrorists "terrorists". Not insurgents, not resistance fighters, not even "opposition forces". No, when they target exclusively civilian targets with the intention of maximizing civilian deaths... they are terrorists.
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No they aren't, they are USED!!
If you look at the root, wouldn't pre-owned mean "before owned"
Terrible pun... (Score:5, Funny)
Y
Fine, now that that's settled... (Score:2)
Ballmer's pretexting transcript (Score:2)
"Hello?"
"Hello, this is Sergei Brin, owner of Google."
"Why, hello Mr Brin. What a surprise! I just had an interview with Google. I thought it went well, but those were some tough questions!"
"Yes. Er... Look, I am calling to let you know personally that Google is a terrible place to work."
"It is?"
"Yes... um... The 'Do No Evil' slogan is nonsense. We do plenty of evil."
"Really?"
"Oh yes. Evil like you can't believe. And, um, we're not nearly as visionary as the people at Microsoft. Have you ev
Serves her right (Score:2)
Two issues (Score:2)
One of the members of the board was leaking company information, and in a way that exposes HP to punitive action by the SEC.
Leaking a company's moral wrongdoings (whistleblowing) is one thing -- a valuable service to all stakeholders, but leaks that expose corporate strategy to compet
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Cause Sony's sure hurting after pissing off the DoD with those rootkits...
Sad but true, give this 6 months, who's going to remember Pattie Dunn's little wiretapping? They'll go back to making their subpar consumer printers and whatnot and keep chugging along.
Re:deck chairs on the titanic, nothing changed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:deck chairs on the titanic, nothing changed (Score:4, Funny)
Those days started to die with Lou Platt; Carly killed and buried them; the current crop of clowns are just dancing on their grave.
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To the person who wasted an admin point on that post: please read the instructions on mod points. There are plenty of good posts in this thread for you to push up instead of wasting one on a post that wasn't meant to be that big a deal anyhow. Seriously, why?
When I have mod points, and when I use them, I always go to older news articles in the same day, browse for good posts that made it late into the thread, and try to push them up. I think that better fits the i
pick the right one, that doesn't happen. (Score:2)