Is Microsoft Paying To Influence UN Standards? 298
PizzaFace writes "Microsoft is reported to be spending strategically to influence the United Nations' standards for business data exchange. A UN standards-setting body, UN/CEFACT, and an industry-standards group, OASIS, had developed an open standard format for data interchange, called ebXML. Microsoft hired two people from UN/CEFACT, and a few months later the body decided to stop working on ebXML and instead to work on a Business Collaboration Framework for web services, promoted by Microsoft and IBM. Microsoft then paid for three UN committee members to travel to six countries to promote the BCF."
No - the price is too cheap (Score:5, Funny)
All technical issues aside, if a damn UN standards-setting body is influenced in their decision by a couple of hotel stays and some plane tickets (which, they would have gotten anyway), then there is no hope for any of us - we might as well accept our clippy enhanced future now.
Hmmmm... or maybe there is - hell, if could raise $10 grand maybe I could get a new standard which lets me get master control over something.
Re:No - the price is too cheap (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft also hired 2 members of the group. This is a pretty standard corporate tactic. Find someone who you can influence to take an early retirement from their influential position, hire them to come work for Halliburton or the Carlyle Group (thrown in for our liberal conspiracy theorist friends) and then pay them a salary of hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to be a consultant. It increases your chances of getting that government contract a hundredfold since the "consultant" is still buddy-buddy with all his old procurement friends at the office. I'm not suprised the corruption has extended to the UN in a similar fashion.
Becoming common practice. (Score:5, Interesting)
I chalk it up to a need to replace old revenue streams before they dry up, or before security and anti-trust penalties take it down for the count, before the company gets a proper audit...
'Course all that's moot if Joe Sixpack figures out that Windows is not ready for the Internet, but that Linux, BSD and OS X are, plus cost effective and easy to use.
Correction : Any Bowers, not Bob Garfield (Score:3, Informative)
Question (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:No - the price is too cheap (Score:5, Interesting)
Do you know how much these people earn?
No... do you? But think about it this way. Even if the UN ambassadors are not as well paid (and their salaries do come from their respective countries) as the "average politician" in their countries, you can rest assured that they ARE paid much much more than the "average citizen" that they claim to represent. Such is the same with any politician. Pols are ALWAYS paid more than they are worth, and always make far more than the people they represent.
Being flown around by MS is a big perk for these people. And I bet the MS PR folk really know how to perk up a lowley UN grunts ego to boot...
I doubt it. UN officials (or at least the ones that sit on committees like this) dont fly business class. And first class tickets cost the same no matter who is paying for it.
NOW, if MS was flying them around on their own fleet of private Jets, that is something else entirely. And besides, the lowley UN grunt doesnt sit in committee in the UN building collecting checks from multinationals... the lowley UN grunt is on the ground in Kenya, or Bosnia, or Iraq, or somewhere like that, handing out rice, giving innoculations to children and other such things. Often for months at a time, in some of the worst imaginable conditions.
The ones who sit in committee would never even set foot in most countries they claim to be looking out for, unless it was for a chauffered ride to the presidential mansion, or palace of whatever country it is...
And even the ones who are high up the food chain, who DO happen to get their hands dirty every so often do so under far more security and protection than even common diplomats get.
I imagine that they are getting far more than a couple plane rides and a hotel room...
Re:No - the price is too cheap (Score:5, Interesting)
The dutch socialist party [sp.nl] takes the salary from their politicians and pays them an average salary (couldn't find how much directly). The money which is left over is used for campaigns and party activities.
So there are politicians which are a notable exception here.
Re:No - the price is too cheap (Score:3, Informative)
A Dutch member of parliament has a salary of 7100 euro gross per month. The Socialist Party (SP) politicians give that to the party.
The SP will return a part of the money to the politician: 1900 net plus 100 euro expenses per month.
Re:No - the price is too cheap (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:No - the price is too cheap (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, but there is a big difference between local government and national government. The fact that people like your father are willing to serve their communities regardless of compensation is an example of why the USA was originally a very highly decentralized nation.
Re:UN activities (Score:5, Insightful)
What you call "paper pushers", and what they call (according to your good link [un.org]) "Administration" etc. is indeed the main role of the UN. "Peace keeping" after wars and such is a lot of administration, management, logistics, police,
I was in Cambodia when they were organizing the first real elections after Pol Pot. Nobody was starving, and there was no need for emergency aid like food distribution (there was and still is need for medical care though). The job was to set up fair elections, and that certainly wasn't easy.
I don't know how the food situation is in East Timor, but I suspect that there also, food is not the main problem. The difficulty is helping to set up a decent civilian administration to run the country after decades of war.
etc. in other places.
What I want to say is that you cannot dismiss the work the UN does on the ground that it is "paper pushers" work. That's the work they are supposed to be doing. Now I'm sure there are many examples where it is badly done, or in an inefficient way, but from what I've seen they also definitely do manage to get good work done.
And even more direct emergency help like for refugees requires a lot of administrative office work.
Re:No - the price is too cheap (Score:5, Funny)
I can see it now:
M$: We wrote this operating system JUST FOR YOU. We even named it after you.
UN Grunt: WOW! Windows Me. I like the sound of that.
M$: (evil laughter)
-m
yes (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:yes (Score:2, Insightful)
UN (Score:3, Insightful)
The UN isn't just USA but the United Nations made up of well over 100 countries. Much bigger field to influence.
Re:UN (Score:2, Funny)
Re:yes, why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
As the merger went along, the attitude was that 'were waiting to get the appropriate legislation passed'. It was very matter of fact, that they knew the laws were going to change to allow them to merge... because they changed them!
Big companies have influence!
Surely not! (Score:5, Funny)
I for one will stand up and defend...err.....hold on....
Re:Surely not! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Surely not! (Score:3, Funny)
Where's my check?
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Surely not! (Score:2)
What did the ebXML people offer? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Double edged Sword (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Double edged Sword (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmm...
Attempted analogy: a donation from Microsoft builds dependency much in the same way as a drug dealer builds dependency. The recipient would be better off getting nothing, instead building self-sufficiency with free software technologies.
Donating to free software is IMHO far more valuable.
Re:Double edged Sword (Score:4, Interesting)
Well give you money to support your nation, but you must allow us to give you agricultural goods as well for free.
SA was willing to accept the free money, but refused to accept the free Aggi goods. SA did not want to destroy their own countries Aggi economy. The US thus refused to support them monetarily.
Yes free stuff is not always as it appears. This tactic used BY microsoft is also the tactic they try to suggest OSS is using against them. The Devil always sees the devil in everyone else.
Re:Double edged Sword (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Double edged Sword (Score:3, Insightful)
If you believe so (Score:5, Insightful)
How corruption starts (Score:3, Insightful)
How does this happen? The opportunity that presents itself doesn't seem like a bribe. It seems like an opportunity that would otherwise go to waste.
Let me give an example. About a dozen years ago I was the (volunteer) treasurer of a non-profit organ
What? The UN? (Score:4, Funny)
Yea right!
Re: What? The UN? (Score:3, Interesting)
This is not surprising (Score:5, Interesting)
At least Microsoft is not getting their buddies elected or, say, preventing security standards from cutting their operation costs at the detriment of their employees and customers' safety.
Swinging one way or the other on a data exchange standard seems pretty harmless to me. But I guess this is the 'excuse du jour' for some quality MS-bashing...
Re:This is not surprising (Score:4, Insightful)
I know you are probably just writing about the long arm of Microsoft's loot, but it is important to note that the UN is NOT a government entity. It is a forum for governments to sit down and collaborate on various issues. It has no authority (thank God). It doesn't make laws (thanks again, God).
Re:This is not surprising (Score:4, Interesting)
If you really believed what you write, or if your comment was based on logic, reason and understanding and not deep-seated hatred of the US, perhaps you would not post anonymously.
Government propoganda? Perhaps you've fallen into the trap of believing UN propaganda, my friend.
Re:This is not surprising (Score:5, Insightful)
Essentially, the S. Korean chamber of commerce gets together and flies around 20 staffers over for 10 days in 5 star hotels, and all-expenses paid fun. Sure, they tour some factories and hear some presentations, but it's mainly a free vacation. Lots of companies/lobbying gropus do similar trips within the US, as well. Sugar cane growers will take staffers to south Florida. The tobacco lobby takes folks to resorts in NC. The military lets military issues staffers stay on board aircraft carriers, etc.
In this particular instance, MS is playing by the well-established rules for this type of thing.
Moral Dilemma! (Score:5, Funny)
UN - The Best International Organization... (Score:4, Interesting)
Mr. Softy would be an idiot not to pay it off. In fact, it's a know fact, it's the only way to get anything done.
Take for instance The U.N. Oil For Food Program [scbeacon.com]. Saddam called it: I'll scratch your back... You Save My Butt!
My wife worked for the U.N. in Africa for 5 years and saw first hand the corruption. TO the point of it being such a joke, that she doesn't even list the experience on her resume. Instead she talks about the odd jobs she performed such as international currier after her UN stint, but while still in Africa.
Re:UN - The Best International Organization... (Score:2, Funny)
I have experience in multi-continental vindaloo management, as well as korma transfer and naan broking
Re:UN - The Best International Organization... (Score:2)
Re:UN - The Best International Organization... (Score:3, Informative)
Nothing that spell check would pick up. A "currier" is a person who prepares leather hides e.g. - by tanning them. Therefore, an International Currier would be a perfectly valid phrase referring to one who prepares leather hides around the world.
Re:UN - The Best International Organization... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:UN - The Best International Organization... (Score:4, Insightful)
If the UN is so irrelevant and ineffective, why is the Bush administration begging the UN [usatoday.com] to clean up the election mess of the administration in Iraq? It is not like it is much at stake for them, just the re-election chances of chimp.
Re:UN - The Best International Organization... (Score:4, Interesting)
Imagine if Hitler had a seat in Congress, and neither and Congress nor his "constituents" could do anything about it except shake their fists. That's the UN.
It's a good and useful forum, but it is completely without authority beyond that which member nations voluntarily cede to it.
Re:UN - The Best International Organization... (Score:4, Insightful)
Lets be honest. It isn't just being misused by US policymakers. There are many other countries misusing it too.
Re:UN - The Best International Organization... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:UN - The Best International Organization... (Score:2)
Re:UN - The Best International Organization... (Score:2)
Re:UN - The Best International Organization... (Score:4, Insightful)
Corruption is a huge problem all over Africa. It is a common phenomena in under-developed nations were business laws are weak. It is even found on a large scale in some very developed countries (France and Italy are good examples, while USA has its fair share). Corruption comes in many disguises, from money under the table, to advanced lawyer set up money schemes.
Now, what did your "wife" see? And this corruption she saw, was it UN staff taking money illegally? If she has some good example or even proofs of this, I am sure many neo-cons wants to hear about it. The UN is one of the more scrutinized organizations in the world and any proof of misconduct will be used against it.
You sound like a true astro-turfer to me and I doubt you or your family have worked inside the UN. Remember that the U.N.s Oil for Food program was set up by the USA after the first Gulf war and the UN did the best it could with the rules for the program set down. And it seems to have worked pretty well in the way that Saddam was not able to get new or maintain his old WMD. It was so successful [state.gov] that Saddam spend all his energy trying to undermind the program. Now, show some proof instead of neo-con hate speech that the Oil for food program was a UN and France conspiracy. And please, add some more substance to your FUD about UN in Africa. I am sure your "wife" can give some concrete examples.
It's not just hotel stays.. (Score:2, Insightful)
duh. (Score:2, Insightful)
Uh... Yes it does?
How is this surprising?
Next
"microsoft's business malpractices."
come on...
Fingers in every pie going (Score:2)
Similar story last August (Score:5, Informative)
Weird (Score:5, Insightful)
The site doesn't mention Windows or Windows-based systems anywhere, nor does it mention Microsoft. With IBM so heavily supporting *nix based systems, I doubt MS can wriggle their way into making the standards supported only on their platform, otherwise it's not really a standard....
Re:Weird (Score:5, Informative)
His take seemed to be that this standard was complete in name only, just to have something to show for their efforts. But most of the specialists stopped contributing to it after the MS mess became known.
He understood Microsoft's desire to influence the standards, but most lobbying is done explicitly. I think they reacted so negatively because they were obviously trying to hide their influence, yet pretend to be having an open and impartial standards setting group.
Most of the technology people involved were primarily concerned with making the standard open to even the smallest and poorest businesses and countries worldwide, and when they found out about this they just weren't happy at all.
"Spending Strategically" ??? (Score:5, Funny)
Then it was "lobbying"
Now it's "Spending Strategically"
bs
Re:"Spending Strategically" ??? (Score:5, Funny)
I spend strategically, you lobby, he bribes.
Profit! (Score:4, Insightful)
Isn't this supposed to be a news site?
--
This is not flamebait or trolling (and these are not the droids you seek). This is commentary, done in a sarcastic tone. Posting tiny examples of the prevalence of corporate influence in our world is a waste of time.
of course they would say that... (Score:4, Insightful)
Like they ever would say something like "yes we are behaving like corrupt colombian Mobsters". Standars are always a wrestling match between companies trying to impose their technology, who doesnt want everyone to need what you created and know best how to do!.
Maybe I'm just insufficiently cynical... (Score:5, Interesting)
UN Control (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder if there are any provisions or controls over the UN to prevent this.
Pass Her Around.... (Score:2, Insightful)
In case you haven't noticed, the UN is everybodies bitch lately.
Lobbyism (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's wikipedia's [wikipedia.org] definition of lobyism.
go to the source! (Score:2, Troll)
Looks like they now have the UN as technology peons as well. surprise surprise
it's bad enough... (Score:2, Interesting)
what really gets to me is that the un would even be dabbling in this sort of thing. next thing they may be off for taxing and that, my friends is the end of the world as we know it and the change is not going to be desireable, believe me you.
ebxml and bcf are on a somewhat different level (Score:5, Insightful)
From an ebXML Business Process Specification Schema [coverpages.org] announcement and a BCF faq [unbcf.org] I figured that ebxml provides a number of services (like repositories) and a number of high-level xml specifications.
The first item, services, seems to do some of the same things as soap, uddl, etc, the webservices stuff (1). This seems to be the major area where IBM and MS try to convince people to use their (webservices) solutions instead of the ebxml solutions.
The second item , the high-level xml specifications, seems to lack a few things that weren't included in ebxml proper, like the "UN/CEFACT Modeling Methodology -- Meta Model". These (or solutions based on it) are now developed separately by the UN under the name of BCF. But this is more of a layer building upon the existing ebxml work.
So: ebxml's services see some flak from webservices (ibm+ms) and the UN acknowledges that this is a possible alternative implementation. On the other hand, the UN builds upon ebxml by adding the BCF layer, making it more useful.
At least, that's my guess from the info!
Reinout
p.s. 1): for REST-proponents: I like the REST approach more than the SOAP one
Corruption levels in the US vs. UN (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Corruption levels in the US vs. UN (Score:2)
How would a "third world ignoramus" end up on a UN committe? Does Kofi Annan [un.org] fit your view of third world people in the UN system? The FUD about the UN is staggering.
Welcome to capitalism (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Welcome to capitalism (Score:3, Insightful)
You're wrong. It's called corruption when industry interferes with or influences government. Capitalism is the belief that if something is needed, people will provide it for a price and those that need it will pay the best price to get it from those who have it.
Re:Welcome to capitalism (Score:2)
This is still corruption, but it's no less capitalism.
It's Dead, Jim. (Score:4, Insightful)
Same as it always was, really, but with scantier drapes.
And no-one seems interested in ( i.e.: scared into ) checks and balances of any sort.
The even minimally ethical, with hope or intent for an even minimally decent future for humanity, or the world, have less places to gather in (on, around) - or hide.
Raw, naked, ruthless, mindless, hell-bent power seems to the order of the day. Klingons with corny western accents, eh ? Well, well. Who'd a thunk it ? And everyone's welcoming them like there was no tomorry, too. >:-|
Re:It's Dead, Jim. (Score:3, Insightful)
Serious, yes, but... (Score:5, Funny)
-S
Speaking of Paying To Influence UN (Score:2, Interesting)
maybe the UN... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:maybe the UN... (Score:2)
The whole point of these UN projects is to support smaller troubled governments with a "government-in-a-box" type project. The original goal was to base it on OSS so that it was Free for any govt to use!!! Then the small countries would have the same benifits as medium-sized countries...ability to build Tax bases, track nat
Re:maybe the UN... (Score:2)
But they are defining XML standards and getting far more involved in the software business than I think it makes sense for them.
The small countries that are the target of such projects will NEVER be able to afford the proprietary solutions that are being suggested! If they DO get any "free" MS or IBM stuff from the deal, tha
Why are they working on this (Score:5, Insightful)
The UN should work on foster better relations between countries. They should work on eliminating all WMDs (even those in the first world) They should cure hunger and famine and disesase and educate the world. They should work toward universal human rights. And when they have accomlished that, disband.
We don't need a world body to help business, they can do that perfectly well on their own. And to do so, only opens up the possibility of corruption with no concievable gain. Why is even as single penny of UN money or a single second of UN time going to this effort when much more pressing needs exist?
Re:Why are they working on this (Score:3, Insightful)
"Better that then do nothing!"
Those are, for the most part (not everyone in international relations agrees that WMD is a major problem in the first world), big problems that you've listed. Unfortunately, many of them are also intractable problems - otherwise they would have been solved decades ago. Focusing on the "major" issues to the exclusion of everything else isn't always the best way to go.
Look at it this way: yes, Al-Qaeda is a huge pro
Re:Why are they working on this (Score:2, Insightful)
Most of us that worked within UN/CEFACT did so at our own, or our employers expense. We even paid fees to attend the meetings. So, at the end of the day the UN is spending diddly squat on this effort and
Re:Why are they working on this (Score:3, Informative)
So when you go to Wal-Mart or JC Penney or even Dell and buy something, the whole business process behind that revolves around electronic documents. An electronic Purcha
A few comments say this is (Score:3, Insightful)
Why do we need a standard set by the UN anyway? (Score:3, Insightful)
Funding plan (Score:5, Funny)
Except now we know what (2) is.
U.N. staff not elected by the people (Score:3, Insightful)
That's why the U.N. is such a thoroughly corrupted entity. The U.N. enjoys a multi-billion dollar budget that is in theory controlled by the governments of a few large country... but in reality, the politicians from those country come and go, and in the end, the U.N. does not really answer to any one.
Lack of oversight over a multibillion dollar budget... yeah! That's the ticket!
Look a this Wall Street Journal article about Kofi Annan deep-sixing the corruption investigation of his best-buddy at the U.N. (Annan's Assistant Secretary General & friend Benon Sevan pocketed millions from Irak).
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:Yxb3
so... (Score:4, Interesting)
The question is, Who's Surprised? (Score:3, Insightful)
That MS is playing by those rules isn't surprising at all, and I'm sure the Bush adminstration is rooting for standards tied to corporate interests and IP as well.
New category for stories... (Score:5, Funny)
Of course... (Score:4, Informative)
Normal operating procedure.. why act suprised?
They only want to stifle it (Score:2, Interesting)
In this case they were afraid that ebXML was gathering too much momentum so they just tried throwing a few sticks in the wheels of ebXML.
Wasted money (Score:2, Insightful)
Open Standards will beat Proprietary (Score:3, Insightful)
Of Course. (Score:2)
What MS really wants from the UN (Score:2, Funny)
Maybe it's better... (Score:2)
Did anyone stop to think that the BCF perhaps is a better standard than ebXML? Oh, that's right, since Microsoft is behind it - and we all know how much you like them - it must be proprietary. I suppose you all missed that IBM is pushing this, too? And from what I've read some time back, others are too. So far as I can tell, OASIS is only backing ebXML.
Do you people even know what these two standards are for? I doubt it. You just see the word "Microsoft" and start raving like uninformed idiots.
So what i
So? (Score:2, Insightful)
The UN has too much power. When you offer a person or a group of people, aka "elected officials" too much power, they'll be corrupted easily.
In the US, we used to have a really limited federal/central government. You could throw all the money you wanted at a Congressman or a President, but the Constitution limited t
Lobbying (Score:5, Interesting)
However, unless people like us are in the know about things like this we there is nothing to stop large business groups from railroading whatever they see fit though standardizing boards.
Yes this is a news site. Yes, guys and gals this IS news. Yeah, the editors have a anti-MS bias but that does not mean that it's not newsworthy.
M$ is definately paying to influence in the US (Score:4, Informative)
The site is sponsored by a group called Public Citzen, a 30 year old organization established with Ralph Nader that among other tracks the funding of all canidates, regardless of party:
Microsoft is on the list of contributors to the Bush reelection campaign.
Steve
TRUSTED COMPUTING (Score:5, Interesting)
The fact that Micorsoft is promoting one Trusted Computing document format over another is insignifigant. The fact that the UN is promoting Trusted Computing AT ALL is what we should be horrified about.
They are tring to ram through Trusted Computing adoption under the UN authority because the rest of the world would rebell against a US or US/EU effort to impose such a system. Any country that does not adopt Trusted Computing (and create laws protecting that crippled hardware) will be entirely locked out. It would be a monumental Trade barrier. Such countries would be increasingly locked out of the internet itself.
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