The Troubles With the Yahool Mail Beta

An anonymous reader writes "Yahoo Mail recently launched their new webmail service, dubbed Beta (yes just like gmail) no doubt hoping to win back market share in the world of webmail. Their prime competition is gmail, which they've modeled some of the new features on, but Yahoo Mail Beta falls very short of offering a similar experience. The ad infested new Yahoo Mail is patchwork of ideas halfway implemented and glaring usability problems."

1GB is more than enough ? ... not for me

The article claims that

yahoomail gives you 1gb, either way it's much more than anyone will ever need.

Well, I dont know if this is the norm and I am just an exception but my gmail account says "You are currently using 1301 MB (47%) of your 2769 MB."

Re:Gmail only superior in some ways.

don't like how Gmail is not good at what it is supposed to do and ends up breaking a single "conversation" into several different groups

I have no idea what you're referring to. For me, a single conversation thread (both sent and received) is displayed all in one page, and I can apply multiple labels to the thread to have the whole thread appear in all relevant categorizations I want without having multiple copies of any of the emails within that thread. Can you clarify what you are seeing?

Re:1GB is more than enough ? ... not for me

That's very optimistic of you. Far more accurate, I suspect, is "Gmail is largely based on the idea that if a user keeps almost every message they ever get, then Google Inc., has a far far larger base of data in which they can mine." That this is a "better use for your time than managing your email", that's all well and good, but it isn't much more than a side effect.

Comparitively

Well it's certainly not as smooth or polished as Gmail, but I definitely prefer it to Windows Live Mail. I feel it falls into a different kettle of fish to Gmail though. Yahoo Mail attempts to emulate the desktop type feel, while Gmail is just doin' it's own thing. :D

dubbed

> "Yahoo Mail recently launched their new webmail service, dubbed Beta (yes just like gmail)

I don't think that word means what you think it means....

A step in the right direction

I've taken a look at it and think it's WAY better than MSN Mail for a feature-to-feature comparrison. It's faster, and just flows a lot better without any annoying banner ads.

Gmail is for plain mail. Yahoo seems to be for those who want the outlook emulation via web-browser. Gmail never captured my interest in the look/feel of an outlook replacement.

Yahoo has a way to go to get me to switch, but for a yahoo-hater in the past like me, I have to give them a thumbs up for the effort.

Yo Grark

Needs free POP3.

Needs free POP3.

allocating 828×588 pixels to Firefox seems we

To make one of his point, the guy points out that 828x588 are allocated to Firefox on his desktop. So either he's running on an old CRT monitor at a weird resolution or he's on a 1024x768 screen and he's some kind of a masochist. I don't see the point, in this day and age, to run Firefox in 828x588 when you can go "fullscreen". Note that I don't say you should always run Firefox in full screen (I sure wouldn't a 30" display, for example) and I'm not "defending" webdesigner pooping website that only looks OK at 1024x768 or more. But here, the guy needs to learn to use virtual desktops... Or simply alt+tab. I mean, frankly, what's the fscking point of running Firefox not maximized *on a small 1024x768 monitor* !? Maybe to see the "ooooh shiny desktop icons" (because of course the mouse is essential to navigate/launch proggys)? This post brought to you on a 1600x1168 Firefox window, located on one out of 12 virtual desktops, on a Metacity window manager that has no icon (no Nautilus, thank you very much). I really mean: WTF?

Ads?

The ad infested new Yahoo Mail is patchwork of ideas halfway implemented and glaring usability problems."

What ads ;p
Thank you Adblock & Adblock G.Filterset updater...

Funny how this "news" just shows up when another news talks about yahoo mail opening up their registration process, if i remember correctly it's already been several months since yahoo mail provided a beta as alternative.

The problem with yahoo...

The main problem with yahoo mail beta is the time it takes to load the interface in the web browser. It takes much longer to load yahoo beta than it takes gmail to load its mail interface.

On top of that, when you compare the sheer number of features that come with gmail, yahoo mail falls too short.

But I do like the new interface of yahoo mail beta - maybe they need to make further refinements and add new features which provide value.

Come on..

If only companies who advertise on sites like Yahoo Mail realized that less is more, we wouldn't have this kind of problem.

Why not pay five times more to get ten times the attention? It's common sense: put your cheap ad on page 23 of a news paper, filled with tons of other ads and you end up paying for very little attention.

I personally notice the ads on Slashdot every time I visit this page, but if it was filled up, it would just blur into the rest of the page and become less valuable.

Just got the yahoo beta today.

First my background: I was a big Yahoo email guy for a number of years. I started using gmail a couple years ago. I still keep my yahoo email address but don't use it much.

I find the yahoo approach somewhat old compared to the clean lines of gmail. In particular, after tagging emails in gmail, it's a little hard to go back to the folder paradigm. Another issue is the home page within the email client that doesn't show you your email. If I want yahoo as my home page, I will set it up that way. It also seems somewhat slow (I'm using a 3GHz P4 w/ 2GB ram running firefox on WinXP on a T1 connection) compared to gmail.

This is totally separate from the gross number of adds on the email site. Thankfully, adblock seems to be able to block out the vast majority of them.

While I had high hopes for the new yahoo email client (I actually like the yahoo.com site redesign), I think it's too little, too late.

I think the poster missed something

"Yahoo Mail recently launched their new webmail service, dubbed Beta (yes just like gmail)"

Does he realize that by beta it simply means it is not final? It seems like the author thinks that beta is part of the name...

Whats a yahoo?

Is the answer I received from one of my Myspace-generation female friends. Yahoo needed to pull off something extraordinary to get back on top of the market, as in my eyes at least Yahoo is almost as old as the cowboy exclamation its name descends from.

ummm, double click?

When I click on a message title, I get about 5 lines of message text displayed in the display area, which is about as convenient as reading the same message off the screen of a cell phone. And this is it, there is no "open message in a new tab/window" or anything like that, this is the only way to view messages.

I guess genius here never tried to double click any of the messages. It opens it in a new minitab within the Y!mail main window/tab.

It's Not About GMail or AJAX or...

It's about Outlook. Yahoo is not trying to imitate GMail. They are trying make Yahoo Mail just like using Outlook or Thunderbird or Evolution or Eudora or whatever. That's why they have a preview pane. That's why you double-click to open the message in its own "window." This is how desktop clients do it. Yahoo simply used AJAX to produce the same kind of behavior. Probably the only webmail that would be similar would be Exchange/Outlook webmail (you know the product that introduced XmlHttpRequest before anybody had ever heard of AJAX...)

Never

Yahoo! mail will never be on the same level as GMail. I've used Yahoo! for longer than I've used GMail (I got a gmail account fairly early in the invitation process), and I've never really liked it. One thing I didn't like was that Yahoo! Mail basically forced me to accept their Beta stuff over the tried-and-trusted old interface. There was no "I don't want this" button to choose, much like many Windows dialogs. It was very frustrating, and I didn't appriciate it at all. GMail's web interface is nicer than Hotmail's (Don't get me started on how many flaws that has) and Yahoo!'s (to many graphical ads). One advantage that GMail had over the rest of the pack is that GMail allows for free POP3 access, although because I have multiple machines, I'd prefer IMAP. Yahoo! and Hotmail both want like $20/yr for POP3 access, which I find to be outragious. They're alreayd making revenue off the ads on my page, so why don't I get POP3 for free? Better yet, make it like adsense... since I have ads in my email, I should get paid. I also dislike Yahoo! sticking large graphical ads in their Groups emails.

Yahoo! Mail rating: 5.5/10 (graphical ads, inconvient settings area, bad UI)

Hotmail rating: 3/10 (graphical ads, not easy to access others profile if you don't have MSFT MSN Messenger, spam spam spam, hard to block people, small space limit)

GMail rating: 8/10 (no IMAP access, having a bot look at all my emails)

Whatever.

Maybe this article will sway the opinion of people who are deciding on a new free email service to join. Hopefully folks will decide on more than this piece of writing.

The title of the article, "gmail beta vs yahoo mail beta", implies some sort of comparison between the services. What it seems to actually be is a 1,723 word (with associated screen-shots) criticism of Yahoo!'s product.

I had my Yahoo! email address before PigeonRank was a twinkle in a Google geek's eye. There are things I like and dislike about both Yahoo!'s and Google's interfaces. I consider Yahoo!'s new interface an improvement over the old one -- it's a considerable facelift, and works with IE and Firefox. Bottom line for me is that the real value of their services lies not in their interface, but the ability to exchange information. Yahoo! is more valuable to me, because folks know they can contact me at that address. It all makes me wonder if the author even bothered to give Yahoo! feedback on their product, or just wanted to show off their l33t ranting ability.

So stupid

This is not a news article! This is someone's blog post! I could get into why the post itself is stupid, but the point of that would be based on the premise that it is *supposed* to be informative/insightful in the first place. It's not! It's just a blog post.

What /. seriously needs is moderation for the articles.

I Like the New Yahoo!

I agree the adds blow, but it doesn't mean that the new Yahoo mail sucks. I like the drop and drag feature. I like the fact that you can see all your mail instead of only 100 at a time. The calander feature at the bottom of the page is cool as well. Does this mean I will give up my Gmail account? No. I'll just keep both.

IMAP

And if I am not mistaken, just like GMail, YMail offers no IMAP support.
I do not really understand why they do not offer this service which is really handy when you use several computers or operating systems. GMail chose to stick to a strange implementation of POP3 where the mail you sent comes back to you through POP.
I guess not everybody has the use of an IMAP server, but until then I will continue to use other freemail services.

Problem attaching files with yahoo mail beta

I tried out the yahoo mail beta last week, and I promptly dumped it in favor of the regular yahoo mail. I tried to attach some files to the email while using firefox, but the popup window to select the attachments was so small that I couldn't click on the browse button to find the attachment, I had to use the tab key to get to it. And there wasn't an 'ok' or 'attach' button in sight anywhere. Screw that.

Y! Mail has tonnes of features, but is dog slow

What use is a fancy Ajax web interface when it is so slow?

It's slow on a dual-2.3GHz G5 machine, and it's positively sloth-like on a 1.33GHz G4 (Firefox). It's slow on Windows too (2GHz Athlon).

It has lots of nice features, and it looks like a stand-alone mail client with added tabs, so it is innovative too. But it is sooooo sllloooowwwww. I can't bear to use it to be honest, I switched back to classic view. There's no excuse for the multiple second delayed reactions when clicking on things in the interface.

GMail is nippy and featureful, and the labelling function does away with that pesky management of email folders issue.

Yahoo! Mail/Oddpost

The title of this article should really be "Yahoo! Mail has a lot of ads", because that and the lack of "automatic" entry of addresses seems to be the only thing "reviewed".

Firstly, Yahoo! Mail Beta is a (slightly) reworked version of Oddpost [wikipedia.org], which was doing its AJAXy goodness years before Gmail existed. Yahoo! bought Oddpost about three months after Gmail appeared (April 1 vs. July 9, 2004), which may have been a competitive response to gmail, but probably was already in the works. Very early Gmail really only had a few "killer" features, the big one being lots of space (1 gig), which all the major webmail providers matched within a few months (Yahoo! initially went to 100M from 10M, and then quickly moved to 1G). Considering that most people couldn't get a gmail account for months or years, this wasn't exactly an existential threat.

Even the original Yahoo! Mail was a purchased product (Rocketmail [wikipedia.org] by Four11), but it really was an innovation for the day (March 1997). The purchased Oddpost product was also a true innovation (it pretty much was the first major AJAX application that was widely deployed - and isn't AJAX the Slashdot Subject of the Year?).

Getting to the substance of the "review" - yes, the ads are a bit obnoxious on free Yahoo! accounts. But in order to get his vaunted 20% ratio, the reviewer had to come up with a very specific and somewhat narrow screen resolution (828x588 pixels). The Yahoo! Mail Folder Pane is a fixed size (200 pixels) and has four, two-line ads. The ad pane (which only exists on the free accounts) is 160 pixels. The center pane (tabs, mail folder, preview page) automatically resizes to take up the rest of the page. At my normal viewing size (1200x800), the ads take up about 14% of the space - and considering I use Adblock Plus, it's really just some blank space over on the right.

The Contact list stuff is even more silly. Yahoo! Mail will automatically add anyone you've ever sent mail to to your Contact list if you want, or ask for confirmation before doing so. Every email you read that came from someone you've never sent an email to has an "add to contacts" button next to the "From:" address (it's a little folder icon with a plus sign). What more exactly do you want? I, for one, don't want anyone who has ever sent an email to me to be a "contact" - that would clutter up my contacts. The GUI for handling contacts, adding them to lists, adding more information about them and the like is much slicker and better integrated than the equivalent Gmail version.

The "ad" for Yahoo! Calendar on the bottom isn't an ad at all - it's a single line that lists your next 3-4 calendar items. It's rather new (it only appeared about a week ago or so) and gives you a nice GUI for scanning upcoming calendar items and quickly adding a new one. Yahoo! was (rightly) being hammered for not upgrading its Calendar to the same AJAXy-goodness of the beta email, so again, what's the harm? Apparently, they need to add a "turn this off" button or right-click menu option to satisfy the reviewer. Sure, that'd be nice but it's not something I'm worrying about one week into the new functionality.

And that's the "review of the review". What the reviewer leaves out is all the really great features of Yahoo! Mail. It does just about everything the way a standalone mail client does - slick GUI, drag-and-drop, a multi-tabbed interface integrated into the client, message searching (results go into their own tab) and a whole bunch more. In my experience, the spam filter has been a lot better than gmail's.

I like both mail systems, but for average users, Yahoo!'s is a whole lot more natural and useful. I'd love to see message threading in Yahoo! and a slicker GUI in gmail.

Someone who hated yahoo mail

still hates yahoo mail! News at 11. Yahoo Mail Beta isn't that bad. Sure, it's a little annoying (I liked the old yahoo mail). Sure, they are trying to draw users back to boost their advertising rates (that's what you get with a free webmail client, people!). But the interface is more outlook like than gmail like (that will give them some fans, and some haters). Honestly, it is no worse than it was before, and it's not really much better. If you liked the old yahoo interface, you can function in this one, and it's no more intrusive that the last one was. If you didn't this one isn't going to win you over.

I don't agree.

I'm using it and mostly satisfied with it, especially, with outlook likfe user interface. And when it comes to ads, ya it's annoying but nothing is free in this world.

Lastly, for gmail, come on, it's just a plain web mail. Comparing it with Yahoo mail beta is a non-sense to me.

OK, This is Lame

The author of this article criticizes viewing Yahoo email in its default email-list-at-top-preview-pane-at-bottom layout, using a small browser window size that was not up to the task of displaying all the information that he wanted to display. He gripes about not being able to open multiple tabs with several email messages like he used to be able to do with Firefox under the old email system.

Less than a minute after reading the so-called article, I had restored his favorite email-reading workflow in my Yahoo Mail Beta window. I was viewing a larger list of emails (by turning off the preview pane), and double-clicking several messages opened up several tabs within the Yahoo Mail window environment. In fact, I'd say that this is an improvement over the old feature set, as it provides his email-reading workflow for non-tabbed IE browsers. I think the author of the article was more in love with complaining than he was with exploring the features of Yahoo Mail.

He also criticises the ads displayed on the page. While it's definately more than before, it's not the 20% of screen real estate that he claims when using a reasonable browser window size. And anyway, most people's eyes have been trained to naturally flow away from advertizing.

To sum it all up... if Slashdot was Digg, this story would be buried under "OK, This is Lame".

Yahoo Mail Beta too broken for me

I tried it on firefox at high resolution (2028x1536). My system DPI is set correctly to 144dpi. Firefox is set to render fonts at no less than 20pt.

Firstly the text is all scrunched up in the menus so that some things can't be read and some things are hard to click on. Obviously some idiot designed the page to be viewed at one resolution.

But more importantly, there is an empty frame that pokes out of the top left corner and covers the menu and the button to switch back to regular Yahoo mail. You have to slide the menu frame to the right to make it go away. I can even see the frame in the code and it doesn't seem to do anything.

All this sloppiness and I couldn't find anywhere to submit bug reports. If this is what Yahoo mail is switching to in the future, I will have to find another webemail provider.

Alpha, Beta, Gamma

I've been using the Alpha/Beta/Gamma symbols behind the major.minor version since I've been programming (and thats now over 13 years). Like v0.1a was very early stage, 0.9b was almost a version. At a certain time I even went from A till R ; just because the updates were too minor but too important to be left out of my products at that time; since lots of programs were doors written for Remote Access and Proboard.

Yahoo is to my opinion using the beta tag with all respect ; just as you should respect the beta-tag which means all bugs and glitches will be ironed out in later versions.

Too bad they don't keep version files around so you can see the around-the-clock work of programming such new application towards their millions of subscribers. I don't use Yahoo mail; I don't know what even changed since their last interface; but Beta still means "Beta - in test - to be fixed - with trial and error".

The history of Yahoo's new mail client

The new Yahoo mail is based upon Oddpost, which was among the first "rich client" web applications developed. It's a rags to riches story, because the pair of guys who developed (Ethan Diamond now product director for Yahoo! Mail at Yahoo! and Iain Lamb) worked through the night at SF coffeeshops because they didn't have an office. Their early program was IE-centric and refused to run on any other browser, but this wasn't a severe limitation for many home users (although it caused me frustration at work). The software generated quite a bit of interest in the press, although at the time (early 2000s) they advertised it as offering only 50MB of storage (amusingly enough, there was nothing built into the program to check -- you could pack your mailbox insanely full).

The company stood out because their app looked like a "real" desktop app at a time when Hotmail was the ultimate web-based mail experience for most people. In the end, they leased a funky little office and managed to get funding to help the company grow. Their business model was simple (and probably not that effective) -- they sold low-cost annual subscriptions to individual users and offered a more expensive corporate package for companies that wanted to deploy the software on their own servers.

Many early users were saddened when their development seemed to go "dark" -- no more site updates, no more quirky news announcements. Many were certain that they were on the verge of closing down when a press release came out late on a Friday afternoon announcing that they'd been purchased by Yahoo! for a rumored $28m. It took a couple of years of hard work, but "Oddpost 2.0" has morphed into a much better email system than Yahoo! formerly had. It's definitely slanted at the casual user who's familiar with MS Outlook, but that's not such a bad thing. My biggest gripe is the non-standard shortcuts. Still, this is a fantastic rags to riches success story.

Nice but..

It still doesn't work with opera. I'll stick to the old, 90's looking yahoo mail for now.

Surprised no one has mentioned the BSD License....

Yahoo! has also relesased the User Interface Library (dubbed YUI Library) it has used to create at least some of the YMail interface under the BSD License. http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/ [yahoo.com]

I've not spent much time playing with it, but it looks like an interesting collection of code.

I'm surprised no one mentioned this sooner

I signed up for Yahoo mail beta along time ago, and then switched back. The interface was slow and clunky. I had no problems other than that, but I could not find out WHERE to submit any feedback.

So far, I have not seen any Web/Java apps that are worth anything. People keep making them, so, maybe it's ME???....

less is more

I want something simple. Gmail is the most simple (and yet having all the things that I want) webmail I have found, but there are those privacy concerns. I value Yahoo as a better overall service that Gmail (Hotmail is really ugly (Windows Live Mail is less ugly) and slow). I like the previous Yahoo web interface better (the "classic" one). What I would really want from Yahoo is an allow-list, and a bigger block list.

www.VerySimpleDrive.com

I like to store my stuff at http://www.verysimpledrive.com/ [verysimpledrive.com]
It gives 2GB space for free.

It's worse on a mobile phone

I access my yahoo mail on my mobile phone, and today it suddenly became absolutely useless. Now it redirects to a WAP version with significantly reduced functionality, where it previously had the usual interface that I am used to on my computer. I am currently running Opera on my Nokia 9300, which is pretty much as capable as version 8.5 that I have on my laptop (yes, I must upgrade that sometime).

Now, I can no longer access any attachments! Just because I am on a phone does not mean that I can't read documents, spreadsheets and PDFs. Also, when entering a message you only get an edit control that is 8 characters across by 4 lines down. This is complete rubbish! I have a screen width of 640 pixels, and I would rather use more than a tenth of it to see more than four words at once! I can no longer delete (or mark as spam) bulk messages. I have to open each one up to delete them. On a slow connection, this is pitiful.

I really don't mind having the option of a cut down interface because the old one did take a long time to download each page, but it should be optional if it means a reduction of features and forces us to learn a different interface to access my mail. The old version worked.

Why I use yahoo email

At the time I set up my yahoo email account, getting a google email account was like getting accepted into some exclusive snotty club.

Google may have changed, but now it's not worth changing accounts. Yahoo is adequate, there is not *that* big a difference.

Market share?

Their prime competition is gmail

Since when? Gmail has low single-digit market share. Yahoo! and Hotmail have 30% or better share each.

Comparing apples and oranges

I often like to compare Gmail to a web-based mouse-enabled version of Pine (especially if you turn on the keyboard shortcuts!). Yahoo! Mail is obviously an attempt to emulate Netscape Mail, Outlook Express, etc.

It's two different paradigms and they're really not strictly comparable. For people who are more tech-savvy who are used to dealing with Pine on a Unix terminal or for those who are highly utilitarian, Gmail is great. For those who have been brought up on years of Outlook Express and are used to drag and drop, Yahoo! is great. More than anything, what someone thinks about the new Yahoo! mail really depends on that person's preferences and set of experiences.

On that note, here is my personal opinion: I love Pine and I love Gmail. :P Yahoo! Mail is very slow (esp. on my 800 MHz Celeron laptop). Ultimately, I think that the fundamental problem with Yahoo! mail is that it uses AJAX to replicate a desktop paradigm on the web. Google, on the other hand, recognizes that the web is a fundamentally different medium and thus uses AJAX to create a web app with an interface paradigm that is appropriate for the web. The web is not the desktop, and I think that it needs a different approach that does not involve blindly porting over a desktop interface. But that's just my personal opinion...

New Yahoo client is great!

I have an ancient Yahoo (originally Geocities) email box that I check every few days. I like the new interface. It's nice to be able to highlight multiple messages with the shift-down arrow and have tabs for each message window, and other things that make it much more like a full email client than anything I've seen elsewhere.

I wouldn't personally switch, mostly since I don't use "free" email anymore. But I have recommended other people to at least try it before opening yet another gmail account.

And?

Where's the beef with this commentary on Y! Mail?

Yahoo kicks Google's ASS!

Flame on!

There was a time when my machine could only do one thing at once. Then a feature called "windows" was introduced by various companies and now I could do multiple things at once.

Gmail is firmly stuck in the 1980s.

With Yahoo I can actually compose multiple emails while referencing multiple emails. I do this on my desktop, why shouldn't I be able to do it on the net? I'm glad Oddpost and Yahoo brought web email out of the dark ages and I'm sad that gmail is still firmly stuck in the past.

Not useful for Linux as far as I can see

I'm running Opera 10 on Ubuntu Dapper Drake on my Dell Laptop. I tried the beta, but it would not load completely, as it appears it uses an ActiveX control. I switched back after a couple of tries. Am I missing something? I haven't seen any other comments indicating a problem in Linux

This is new?

This beta is new? I've been using the German-language Yahoo Mail (mail.yahoo.de) and it's had the "beta" for the better part of a year. I like it myself and to me, it doesn't take long to load at all. I'm using a PowerMac G5 that's about 2 years old... just fine :)

I can't even see it!

I can't even see what the new Yahoo Mail looks like. I can't seem to open it in any browser, either in Linux or Windows. And I have problems with the old Yahoo Mail in Firefox, too. I was seriously considering dumping my Yahoo account, now they put me a little bit closer to that.

It's a fairly decent version

I think that the pro's and cons of the beta both are related in how it tries to emulate Outlook.

It's nice that it has a familiar interface compared to desktop apps. However, it also lost a nice feature which allowed me to select messages that I know are spam and report them. Now, I actually have to select the message (downloading the images that might contain trojans, etc) before I can report them.

Tip for Adblock

i succeeded in blocking the ugly addframe at the right side of the screen by adding:

*yahoo*mail*candygram*

To my adblock.

Anyone else have some adblocking tips?

Re:PLEASE SLASHDOT EDITORS!!

Is the story interesting?
Yes.

Does the blog provide good information and sufficient media (i.e. pictures)?
Yes.

Should Slashdot wait/hope for another source like an official news paper to bring up this story instead of delivering the news as fast as possible?
Possibly, but not in this case.

Re:Bloatware...

Yeah, can live without a drag-n-drop way to move messages to folders.

Re:will always prefer Yahoo mail over Gmail

I actually agree with that, but did you have to post it a dozen times all over the discussion?

Re:will always prefer Yahoo mail over Gmail

Yahoo doesn't have annoyances like having to click a link just to edit the subject when replying.

How many times have you edited the subject of a reply you are sending??? I make a practice never to do it. th subject links the reply reliably to the original.

Also, Quit trolling. you have posted basically the same thing ~4 to 5 times in just this story. enough is enough.