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Company Makes Inconspicuous Secure Cellphone
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Tue May 23, 2006 03:37 AM
from the price-tags-that-probably-cause-physical-pain dept.
from the price-tags-that-probably-cause-physical-pain dept.
dponce80 writes "With concerns over privacy at an all-time high, it's refreshing to hear that Swiss company VectroTel is making a secure mobile phone. The X8 encrypts secure calls (the unit is also able to make regular calls) with a virtually unbreakable 128-bit key, itself generated through a Diffie-Hellman exchange. While transmission does get somewhat delayed, communication is secure."
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Company Makes Inconspicuous Secure Cellphone
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What does this mean for eavesdropping? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What does this mean for eavesdropping? (Score:5, Insightful)
would you be happy then if the "government" listened in on your phonecalls with your lawyer? or your tax attorney? or your doctor? or your psychiatrist? or your stockbroker? or your mistress? or your wife? or your election campaign manager? or any of a myriad of things you would rather not get out into public or potentially be used against you?
Re:What does this mean for eavesdropping? (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, live a good clean life, ignore outside influences, pay your taxes on time and you will have little to worry about; Like me :)
In other words, be completely boring, never upset the status quo, never fail to kow-tow to any government officials you meet (just in case) and be insignificant enough to escape notice and you're fine. Yeah, great plan. You'd do just fine as a serf in medieval europe too.
Who cares if the lord can fuck you in the ass whenever they want, so long as you are ugly and unimportant they won't bother.
Re:What does this mean for eavesdropping? (Score:4, Insightful)
That gets flagged as a potential terrorist conversation.
Since he's talking to you at the time, you both get investigated.
They find out that that one weird cousion of yours recently travelled to Italy, and by concidence a known terrorist contact was also in Italy.
You now look like the perfect cover, and warrant a REAL investigation... ie, asking your neighbors and employer questions.
Since they've been asked, and "they wouldn't be asking if there wasn't something to worry about", you are now suspected by your neighbors.
So, they've talked to you boss as well, who recalls that you were late coming back from lunch awhile back. (You're wife's prenatal checkup ran a little long) That story checks with the gov't, but they, naturally, never call your boss back to tell him.. so he's now a little suspicious.
You can't guarantee none of this could ever happen. (And you know the old byline... with the government, any possible abuse is a guaranteed abuse at some point. Do you want to be THAT guy?)
However, if they didn't pick up on the original conversation, that completely removes the most probable vector for something like this happening.
Can you hear me now?? (Score:5, Funny)
NSA analyst: No
Re:Can you hear me now?? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's unlikely they could. Assuming the key exchange works properly, and assuming they're using a known good algorithm (such as Rjindael aka AES), the NSA has no shot. Assume they use AES. Default is 128 bits and 10 rounds. Then the following little blurb from Apple's website applies:
AES gives you 3.4 x 10^38 possible 128-bit keys. In comparison, the Digital Encryption Standard (DES) keys are a mere 56 bits long, which means there are approximately 7.2 x 10^16 possible DES keys. Thus, there are on the order of 10^21 times more possible AES 128-bit keys than DES 56-bit keys. Assuming that one could build a machine that could recover a DES key in a second, it would take that machine approximately 149 trillion years to crack a 128-bit AES key.
(To put that into perspective, the universe is believed to be less than 20 billion years old.)
Now, that assumes you can crack a DES key in a second. The fastest successful crack by Deep Crack [wikipedia.org] was just shy of 24 hours, or, 86400 seconds.
Re:Can you hear me now?? (Score:4, Insightful)
Obviously.
If he truly hadn't heard the Verizon guy, he wouldn't have answered anything at all, hehe.
This sounds like a really good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This sounds like a really good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm willing to defend my freedom to death. If necessary, against my government.
And I bet, the US founding fathers would be proud of me.
Nice (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://slashdot.org/~hummassa | Last Journal: Wednesday August 22, @05:11AM)
Virtually unbreakable? (Score:3, Insightful)
(http://xccr.com/)
Useless (Score:4, Funny)
(http://www.dutchvirtual.nl/ | Last Journal: Friday August 10, @07:04AM)
This is of course useless for phone sex.
Me: "So, what are you wearing?"
Gf: "..."
Me: "What are you wea*"
Gf: "A hot small negli*"
Me: "Sorry, please continue"
(...)
Gf: "A hot small neglige and nothing else"
Me: "*grunt* and then?"
(...)
Gf: "I didn't hear you. What did you say after then?"
Me: "Uh nothing, I was just asking, what do*"
Gf: "Is this thing on? Oh wait now I hear you. Can you repeat?"
Et cetera.
Official product page (Score:1)
unbreakable? (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://f4x.fw.nu/)
isn't WEP also 128 bit?
Re:unbreakable? (Score:5, Informative)
Feasibility for US Market? (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~ssloss)
Since this cellphone is made in Switzerland, a country that presumably has differing cell phone communication standards than the US does, is it possible to buy and use this cellphone in the US with a normal US carrier? Or would we have to wait and hope for a company to build something similar for the US?
Thanks, and sorry for the ignorance.
Re:Feasibility for US Market? (Score:5, Informative)
A phone connected to a base station will always us one or the other band. But within each band there are several channels; the phone and base station automatically select the best channel continuously throughout a call {if another subscriber disconnects and the channel they were using is better, your conversation will switch to that channel}. The whole process is kept seamless because both phone and base station change at the same time, between data packets.
need to ask Bruce on this one.. (Score:1, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Friday May 07 2004, @11:35AM)
There goes all that security. What is the point of trying to break a 128-bit session key if there is just a simple PIN code to break instead? Looks like someone should have read Bruce Schneier.
-molo
Re:need to ask Bruce on this one.. (Score:5, Insightful)
What about authentication? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not saying it's necessarily snake oil, but the lack of any details certainly doesn't inspire any confidence.
Re:What about authentication? (Score:5, Informative)
All clear now? Well, this is how it might work in practice, with a malicious interloper we'll call Mallory:
Alice tries to call Bob. Mallory intercepts the call, pretending to be Bob; gets the key Alice sends, and in return sends her a key {which Alice thinks is from Bob}. A fraction of a split second later Mallory places a call to Bob, pretending to be Alice, and sends Bob a key. Bob thinks Mallory's key is really Alice's key and sends a key to "Alice". Whatever Alice says is encrypted against the key sent to her by Mallory, who -- having the opposite key -- can decrypt it, re-encrypt it against the key which Bob has, and send it on to Bob. Mallory has a nice, fast computer that can do decryption and re-encryption in real time; in reality, it only has to be twice as fast as the processor in either of their telephones. Whatever Bob says is encrypted against a key sent to him by Mallory, who can decrypt it and re-encrypt it against Alice's key. Mallory has both sides of the conversation, in the clear, and neither Alice nor Bob are any the wiser.
PCS (Score:1)
(http://www.enderandrew.com/ | Last Journal: Tuesday July 03, @11:44PM)
However, what most people don't know is that the Marine Corps invented PCS technology back in the Viet Nam era, and no doubt the government can listen in if they so decided.
Man in the middle (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm more worried about the proprietry algorithm for the encryption, and how it's implemented. Any conspiracy theorists will still think there's a back door for the government (or swiss secret service?) to listen in.
Anyone with anything really important to say would use GPG on an MP3 and maybe a lashing of stenography on top.
Why not get one from cryptophone.de? (Score:5, Informative)
They employ some of the smartest crypto people, use well-known algorithms and publish their sources so you can check them yourself.
Some points... (Score:5, Informative)
Some points;
- 128 bit keys are probably good enough, depending on the nature of the conversation. Diffiehellman generates a per-session master secret. To this you would then apply a KDF ( Key Derivation Function ) in order to produce your session key for use with your symmetric cipher, most likely AES or 3DES, maybe even TwoFish. A new master secret is generated every time you make a call, hence the session key changes per call, this is UNLIKE your WEP key, which is constant or one value selected from a set. The consequence of this is that although it is practical to break an 128 bit symmetric key, it is NOT practical to do so in the time interval in which the call is taking place. Hence the encryption applied is strong enough for protecting calls in the short term, although if someone captured the call they could possibly decrypt it at a later date.
- GSM does feature limited cryptography. Unfortunately, and rather amusingly this encrypting is only carried out on radio traffic. Once the data reaches the base station / cell, it is sent in the clear around the cable cellular netork's backbone infrastructure.
Its a good as your surroundings (Score:3, Insightful)
(http://www.a2b2.com/)
Big question is (Score:3, Funny)
Sectra Tiger (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.martingunnarsson.com/)
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/naviga
Regular-use crypto (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://febrile.net/)
There's a parallel problem with GPG or the like. Since very few people have or want to use it, sending unencrypted e-mail is the only way to communicate with most of the world.
This phone is worse than that, though, since I can download GPG/cyrpto-software-of-your-choice and even install it for someone and show them how to use it -- but I'd have to persuade them to spend money on new hardware (and then convince them to actually use it with the crypto on!) in order to use the features of this phone.
Apathy/Laziness: 1
Discerning Citizens: 0
No use for terrorists (Score:2)
(http://www.houghi.org/)
a terrosist won't be able to use it. Because the first important thing is not what is being said, but to whome you are using.
As cellphones are easy to listen in on to, this is already a good use of the average business man and CEO who is afraid of industrial espionage.
Unfortunatly these are the same people who won't use gpg on their email, because it is too difficult to use.
Drugdealers and such might find it mildly usefull, although buying a (smaller) phonecompany so you know when they start listening in might be a better idea. Just switch numbers at that moment.
President Logan must have one of these (Score:2, Funny)
Too bad it didn't protect him against his wife's secretary using a $30 digital recorder from Radio Shack to tape a conversation incriminating him in the assassination of a former president, but then, *everybody* was having a bad day.
How about backdoors (Score:5, Interesting)
The interesting (not to mention relevant) detail here is that they (the Europeans) where using a supposedly safe mobile phone (made by a Swiss company i believe) which turned out to have a backdoor that allowed NSA to decrypt the calls.
Why should we expect these guys to be any more honest than those other ones where (assuming they're actually not the same ones)?
As i see it, the best way to make sure you have a backdoor free safe phone is to have a generic open-mobile solution, a bit like a mini-PC but for a mobile phone, with an open communications API that allows development and deployment on such a mobile of software which provides the safe communications.
As long as the encryption layer is implemented by the provider and cannot be checked by any independent 3rd party, there is no guarantee whatsoever that it ain't filled with backdoors/weaknesses put there on purpose to allow the sig-int agencies (of one or more countries) to be able to spy on calls made via those mobile phones.
Easy to defeat (Score:2)
If somebody wants to know what you are saying, they just bug the handset. They have to really want to listen pretty badly and come up with a way to get the phone long enough to mod it, but it can be done, has been done, and been used against assorted targets around the world.
As long as people have to speak into the phone and hear sound from the earpiece, there will be plain old bugs in phones.
Convenience (Score:2)
Only 128 bits? (Score:1)
(http://www.kermodebear.org/)
Maybe I'm just paranoid, and IANACE, but still... The Other Guys have money and resources too, you know.
Concerns over privacy at all time high? (Score:3, Funny)
(http://slashdot.org/)
unbreakable? (Score:2)
(http://blog.thebarproject.com/ | Last Journal: Friday April 21 2006, @10:16AM)
for now... quantum computing promises the ability to break these virtually unbreakable keys while i'm getting a cup of coffee. if it can be made, it can be broken. it's a universal truth. if we can't break it now, we'll be able to break it later - and you better believe the NSA will be able to break it before you know they can.
Can some phone-geek clear something up please? (Score:2)
(http://www.certainkey.com/)
a) Alice calls Bob
+ results in a SS7 data message sent accross the PSN (publicly switched network - aka. legacy phone excahnges) to establish a ring on Bob's set.
+ If they're both cell phone users, then there is additional routing accross each users' cellphone networks.
b) Bob answers the call and talks with Alice
+ Cell phones often use u-law [wikipedia.org] for voice/data compression. The PSN transmits at a lossless (unless it's VOIP) 8 sample at 1khz See here [cf.ac.uk]
With u-law compression (and other regions of the earth use different compression schemes to account for different intonations of the languages used) how can you reliably send lossless data using these phones?
Read "Black" by Whitcomb (Score:2)
(http://www.rant.st/)
Why DH is wrong for phones (Score:2)
(http://www.biglumber.com/ | Last Journal: Tuesday September 18, @12:25PM)
The thing I have noticed about my own phone usage is this: I mostly call people that I know in the Real World. A PKI would work perfectly, because there are many opportunities for secure key exchange.
And with time, even PK becomes obsolete. As phone storage increases, OTPs would work. Just let my phone sit next to my girlfriend's phone all night, and let the two devices negotiate a few gigs of random pad over a low-power IR link. Why is this team, and also my hero PRZ, using DH when better stuff is around? I mean, maybe DH is good as a backup plan when you don't have someone's public key, but it shouldn't be usual way to get the job done.
How about a secure headset instead? (Score:2)
(http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/ | Last Journal: Wednesday May 11 2005, @07:34PM)
The Templars are at it again (Score:1)
Please don't put a camera in it!! (Score:2)
(Last Journal: Friday October 13 2006, @05:34PM)
But I like the idea of encrypted calls, just like I like the idea of encrypted email. Yeah maybe I don't have anything secret to talk about, but my conversations aren't anyone else's business! Period.
DH is no protection against NSA/AT&T spying (Score:1)
One thing I can guarantee (Score:1)
(http://www.carpemultimedia.com/)
2003 (Score:1)
Re:Are people really this paranoid? (Score:2)
(http://www.a2b2.com/)
Re:Are people really this paranoid? (Score:3, Insightful)
The reason to encrypt is not to make it impossible for investigators to hear you -- because, as you said, they can bug you in some other way. The reason is to make it impractical to do widespread monitoring of innocent people. When all calls are encrypted, investigators have to do a little actual work to bug a call, so it's impossible to instantly tap all the innocent callers as they'd like.
And if you've been following current events at all, you'll notice that a large portion of America isn't nearly as "paranoid" as it should be.
Re:Cryptography? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Cryptography? (Score:2)
Or, as it turns out, a reporter with confidential sources, or anyone in general who is opposed to current government policy.
Re:Are people really this paranoid? (Score:1, Troll)
slightly with the line taken by the article gets modded as a troll??
Wtf is going on here??! How excatly was I trolling you amateur hour
moron moderator?
Re:Are people really this paranoid? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's far, far easier for the government to bug all the phone lines (as they're currently doing, I might add) at a central point, and then plug in to someone's conversations at will. If you're using an encrypted phone, then Echelon / Carnivore / AT&T / Dubya's Latest Secret Illegal Wiretap can't listen in. The government have to break in to your house, take a screwdriver to your phone and physically bug the thing.
Can the government spy on everybody by bugging the telephone exchange? Yes, easily, and they're doing just that. Can the government spy on everybody by secretly bugging every last individual phone? No, it would be prohibitively expensive. Have the NSA burgle every single house individually and fiddle every single phone? Impossible.
Encrypting phone calls makes it enormously more expensive and difficult for the government to spy on you. That's got to be a good thing.
Re:Honeypot? (Score:2)
(http://www.spinningatom.com/)
What the point is (Score:2)
(http://www.allappropriatetech.com/)
Regular GSM is encrypted, as you say, although weakly. The GSM encryption encrypts the link from phone to cell tower. This will, in no way, prevent a government wiretap or telco employee with greased palms from intercepting your call after it has been decrypted and put on the network.
This, on the other hand, provides end-to-end encryption, and stronger encryption at that.
Re:They should have used SSL (Score:1)
(http://wakaba.c3.cx/)
That is exactly what they mean, and it makes perfect sense. It's a cheap and simple solution, which does not require any smart cards or certificates, which would make the whole thing inconvenient enough to be nearly unusuable.
But hey, maybe you're right, I'm sure Joe Q. Slashdot can think up a much better solution in five minutes than any group of cryptographers can over the whole developement cycle of an actual commercial product.
Actually, no, they're not encrypted... (Score:2)
(http://www.earlconsult.com/)
Re:Ummm.... (Score:2)
(http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3675.html)
Frankly, I don't trust it.
First of all, neither 1024-bit DH nor 128-bit AES actually give you 2^128 complexity. For AES, you need at least 256 bits of key material to get 128 bits of security [windowsecurity.com]. I don't know specifically about diffie-hellman, but it's very similar in structure to RSA, and experts have been recommending at least 2048-bit keys for RSA [schneier.com] for years now.
The "XOR" part of the description, while somewhat scary-sounding, might actually be counter mode [wikipedia.org], which is considered secure for AES and is actually recommended by Bruce Schneier in his book, Practical Cryptography. Or, it might just be XORing the output of a single AES ciphertext block with the entire plaintext datastream. We really have no way of knowing.
Have a look at the Vecrotel FAQ [vectrotel.ch]:
Totally unacceptable.
If those really are "frequently-asked questions", those responses are simply arrogant. The has clearly adopted a "trust us" mentality, which just doesn't work with people who want strong security. I also don't see any FIPS certifications anywhere.
I smell snake oil [interhack.net].
Mod my previous reply down (Score:2)
(http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3675.html)
[Please mod my previous reply down. It's botched.]
There is some information about the algorithms they're using here [vectrotel.ch]. That page says that they're using 1024-bit DH to negotiate a 128-bit AES key, then they XOR the output of the AES algorithm with the voice data.
Frankly, I don't trust it.
First of all, neither 1024-bit DH nor 128-bit AES actually give you 128-bit security (i.e. 2^128 complexity). For AES, you need at least 256 bits of key material to get 128 bits of security [windowsecurity.com]. I don't know specifically about Diffie-Hellman, but it's similar in structure to RSA, and experts have been recommending at least 2048-bit keys for new designs using RSA [schneier.com] for years, and that's not even to get a 128-bit security level. For a true 128-bit security level, you need something like 6100 bits (if I remember correctly), which most people don't use because it's very slow to do in software.
The "XOR" part of the description, while somewhat scary-sounding, might actually be counter mode [wikipedia.org], which is considered secure for AES and is actually recommended by Bruce Schneier in his book, Practical Cryptography. Or, it might just be XORing the output of a single repeating AES ciphertext block with the entire plaintext datastream, which would be trivially insecure. We really have no way of knowing.
As for authentication, which is often more important than confidentiality [windowsecurity.com] (and which may be required [iacr.org] for confidentiality)? This [vectrotel.ch] is all I could find:
There is no mention of what hash function is being used, nor of what is being hashed. Furthermore, people who talk about "HASH" -- in all-caps, as if HASH is an algorithm itself -- clearly don't know what they're doing. It might just be Vecrotel's marketing department messing things up. Or, it could be a more fundamental lack of expertise within the company. Who knows?
Have a look at the Vecrotel FAQ [vectrotel.ch]:
Totally unacceptable.
If those really are "frequently-asked questions", those responses are simply arrogant. The company has clearly adopted a "trust us" mentality. If I was willing to blindly trust other companies, I wouldn't be looking for a secure phone!
Crypto products are like voting machines. If their operation is not independently verifiable, then they simply cannot be trusted.
As an interesting side note, I don't see any FIPS certifications.
I smell snake oil [interhack.net].
Re:Are people really this paranoid? (Score:2)
Well, if you have a government that is itself so paranoid that it believes the Chinese government is implanting bugs in every laptop, that secrets can be kept by a bureaucracy, that laptops aren't a bad place for a bureaucracy to keep secrets, and that bulk monitoring phone call traffic is not only legal but a productive use of their time, perhaps the thought that such a government might just listen in on your calls and get confused about who's who and what's what and think you're talking about some nefarious activity, just ain't so crazy.
Also, suppose some NSA guy listens in on a random phone call and happens to hear a guy tell his lawyer that his company is about to go bankrupt because the CFO ran away with $$$. What's to keep him from immediately going out and selling the stock short? Remember, there are several *secret* organizations (i.e., bureaucratic) out there staffed by people who are trained and encouraged to not tell anyone what they are doing. Don't you think the likelihood that some people within such an organization may have a lack of scruples (a top secret clearance doesn't guarantee they don't), and find it all too convenient to add some of their *own* autonomous secret behaviour that takes advantage of their position? Who is going to "out" them or whistleblow on their activities? Do you trust the administrators of such programs to be able to detect such things, to be spotless in their behavior themselves, and to do the right, fair and honest thing when problems are discovered?