Quantum Leaps in RPGs 107
Gamasutra has up an article, giving out 'awards' to titles that made a genre what it is. Today, they have memorable and impactful role-playing games; a top five with five honorable mentions. They're all very worthy titles, but I'm not sure about their placement on the list. None of the Ultima games make the top 5? Really? From the article: "Ultima V - The Ultima series allowed the player a level of freedom found only in a few games today. Through the origins of the series, the game had fits and starts where some ideas worked and others did not. By V, however, the central core of the game was completely worked out and many games today are 3D versions of this ground breaking title: Elder Scrolls comes to mind. Though other games at the time were similar, Bard's Tale for example, they did not have the scope of story and adventure, nor did they encompass so many technologies of the time. -James Edwards, Microsoft"
Oh Boy! (Score:2, Funny)
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"You have to side with one of the factions in town (or the mercenaries), clear the Valley of Mines of Orcs and reach the destroyed remains of the Old Camp and then hunt and kill the four elemental dragons to
"Ah fuck it, Al, isn't there a brothel down on the docks?"
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Re:FF (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:FF (Score:4, Insightful)
Warcraft hasn't invented or innovated anything, they've just taken an existing format and dumbed it down for the masses.
And if making the most money is what defines a good game, then we may as well cancel the game industry.
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The opportunity to take on the role of a leader, entrepaneur, griefer, respected player, etc. exist within the mechanics of the game. I'm
Oh Boy!!!! (Score:1)
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Quantum Leaps (Score:1)
Oh boy... (Score:5, Funny)
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There is some cool stuff in Oblivion, and s
Radiata Stories (Score:1, Interesting)
weapons? (Score:3, Funny)
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This article doesn't even list RPGs (Score:1, Troll)
Meh.. (Score:3, Interesting)
But to Oblivion's credit, I made it through the game without a single hitch or crash (that I remember). I'm not running an amazing machine, but it looked great and played smooth throughout (except a little choppy during one of the last battles). I remember having a storyline order problem or two in Morrowind - but none with Oblivion.
I don't know w
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Re:This article doesn't even list RPGs (Score:5, Funny)
Your so right! They should list real rpgs like World Of Warcraft.
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Story, depth and good mechanics are things that define this genre IMO. They should stick to Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Elder Scrolls, Ultima type of games. There's no place for MMORPG or jRPGs there (well, maybe one of the kind, but not both FF and CT, they are way too similar).
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I've been thinking of how to combat the "help, I'm lost and can't find an NPC that knows what the hell I'm supposed to be doing" feeling I get from playing some of the later Wizardry games, as well as the "wtf, both of these choices suck and either way I choose she's going to die so why do I care" feeling I get from some of the linear RPGs, but nothing comes to mind other than a game that ran on rails the first time around, and wh
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FF basically created the J-RPG genre and continues to be its flagship.
CT was unique in that you could replay the game to get different endings - something not seen in other games of the time where you either "won" or "lost".
Also, if by your definition, RPGs are defined by story, depth and mechanics, why eliminate J-RPGs since, by their structure, they tend to have very elaborate stories even if they sacrifice the openess and freedom you see in other games.
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Role playing in Pen&Paper evolved from wargaming, as people developed an interest in playing specific heros (inspired directly by the works of J. R R. Tolkien) rather than armies. What are called "RPGs" on computers are an outgrowth of Adventure games, they attempted to model the experience of Pen&Paper roleplaying by adding stats and combat to interactive stor
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I agree that J-RPGs tend to be more like "stories on rails" with fixed characters, pre-set dialog, a pre-set story, hea
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I think this is a fascinating view of roleplaying, especially since it makes Super Mario 2 a role-playing game - you could find funny mushrooms that gave your character more maximum health points. And with Warp zones, you could change your path considerably. You could even find and carry items around - only one at the time, but still.
Shake in your b
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While computer games - by definition - have to be fairly constrained, some are more constrained than others.
If you compared Oblivion to, say, Final Fantasy 8, you'd say that Oblivion has a seemingly infinite amount of freedom. In FF8, you're handed your character - an angsty teenage boy who cares about nothing. If you were to TRULY play him that way, you'd simply leave him in his bed. Of course
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RPG is nothing more than a game in which you control one or more characters, with characters having stats and skills, and the success of the character's actions depend on those stats/skills (as opposed as your skill).
Final Fantasy is completely an RPG, I haven't played Chrono Trigger so can't say about that one. The presence or not of long cutscenes doesn't have anything to do with a game being RPG or not.
About Oblivion, I played it 2 times full with 2 completely different charac
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Ranking games like this is pointless (Score:5, Insightful)
You'll never see "Top 10 Paintings of the Rennaisance", but that hasn't kept art critics and historians from debating their merits and influence through the years.
Every game on that list, and quite a few others, deserves to be there. But why waste time quibbling about rank? When you make lists like this, people are bound to concentrate more on a game's place rather than the content of the criticism or praise. These games stand on their own as great works, or they wouldn't be there at all.
It all reminds me of those silly GameFAQ's character battles.
And, for my money, Daggerfall and Morrowind deserve to be on there every bit as much as Oblivion. Not to mention NetHack and Diablo.
heh (Score:2)
Morrowind and Daggerfall both had their share of showstopping bugs, but that didn't stop them from being incredible games. The same can be said for Fallout and much of the Ultima series.
Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet and whatnot.
Half-life?? (Score:2)
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Soo the best RPG is in fact not an RPG but the best FPS... Makes sense to me. ;) Thanks though for the heads up. Fallout rightfully wins. No contest.
You get the same error if you use the previous button. Looks like they've got a nasty scripting error.
I can only agree on the Choices (Score:3, Insightful)
It was definitly one of the most entertaining while also groundbreaking games of its time - the time-battle system, the combination of techniques for the battles, dozends of possible endings, countless sidequests and the ability to avoid battles (having to take on the 415th Generic Enemy you wipe away easily is a major turn-off). Shame with Chrono Cross though (it still was a great game, if only the story-makers had not decided to "hey let's kill off everything CT players hold dear and piss on their graves")
For #4
System Shock 2 and Deus Ex. Both game stand synonymous for a new Genre - true first person action role playing games - not FPSs that got added an "roleplaying" system as if as an afterthought, but both sides - action and roleplaying - made as one, from one yarn. The multiple solution & multiple ending ability in Deus Ex gives it a slight advantage over SS2, but I would have been happy to see either on this spot.
For #3
Oblivion - is it the new quantum leap or just a propagation from the old. Perhaps a bit of both. I had some qualms regarding the difficulty of the game (scaling the power of enemies according to your level is nice, but please make sure their power niveau fits the setting - a level 1 character that gets beaten up by City Guards, but that can become champion of the arena - and thus best fighter in the world - just because the arena opponents are also pitiful weak hurts both the sense of accomplishment and suspension of disbelieve), but still the direction is the right one - RPGs become even more open-ended and lifelike, and Oblivion is pointing that direction.
#2 Planescape Torment
What can I say. A perfect story, told in a perfect way. Be who and what you want - literally; waking up without memories gives you that freedom. Truely one of the best RPG ever made. #1 Fallout
Words fail me. Fallout has it all (though PS:T still wins in the story department).
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Also, Oblivion has very bad art. The graphics ar
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You didn't have to do any one of those things. You could have just played the game without thinking about min-maxing the levelling system or using the auto trav
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FF7 ftw (Score:1, Funny)
Final Fantasy 7
1-The charactors are more recognised than anyone else... better known than even Mario, or Yoshi or any other game charactor. In Asia, they are heroes!
2-Advent Children - How many games in general get full length movies created by their fanbase and sold by the millions internationally? not many!
3-i have yet to see any game with such an Epic storyline and a truly end-of-the-world climactic finale
this could go on, but seeing as how i'm still at
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This list was talking about quantum leaps in the genera, recognizing games from breaking the mold and jumping into the unknown. Final fantasy 7 did not do that. It was a very polished game, the story was detailed and with enough plot twists to keep it entertaining, it had excellent mechanics and is one of my and many other's favorite games of all time.
Definately out of order (Score:2, Insightful)
Of course EQ is really given credit that belongs to Sierra's "The Realm" (which is still kept around by loyal players to this day). EQ basically latched onto this idea and made it run in 3D. The realm did have a much more fully developed social system and economy than EQ but it was hardly a social experiment. It contains a fully developed magic and combat system, doz
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Actually I was saying that Realm had PvP.
"I was rather young when SIerra had it's Shadows of Yserbius online version, Realm was before that?"
No. Shadows appears to have an earlier release date but it is only a graphical mud. Realm is not just a mud with pictures on top, it is an actual MMORPG.
If there was something before Realm I don't know of it, and Realm continues to operate (with about 300 simultaneous players at peak) so it is definately the longest lived.
Where's Phantasy Star? (Score:1)
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No classes - you had stats, gained skill points to invest in whatever field you wanted (both tech and magical), and your skills determined how tech or magic you were (the more tech you are, the less magic works around you and the more magic you are, the less tech works around you to the point of having a good chance of technical weapons missing you completely)
Your tech/magic rating, ra
Oblivion? how much did bethesda pay them? (Score:2)
absurd (Score:2)
Elder Scrolls Oblivion -- not only is it the best RPG, but also is one of the best games ever.
Oblivion has made the biggest quantam leap ever for an RPG. There has never been such a significant advance in gaming in one game. End of story.
Good job of aggregating hyperbolic praise of a game that represents, if anything, a step backwa
Planescape: Torment (Score:3, Insightful)
Still, pen & paper RPGs are better.
Ultima (Score:2)
Something is missing (Score:3, Insightful)
If there's one thing I would like to see more of, it's Wizardry 8-style party RPGs. I don't think they even make those anymore... *sniff*
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There's always Suikoden.
"Hey, Bob, you know what this game really needs?"
"What's that, Tim?"
"Everybody in Illinois."
"That's a great idea. You get started on the art, Jake will call the Census Bureau, and I'll work on the dopey side-quests."
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Is this list off or am I out of touch (Score:2)
Wizardry? (Score:1)
The Longest Journey (Score:2)
Wow- I actually agree with most of this (Score:3, Insightful)
Deus Ex and Oblivion are close: it should be System Shock 2 and Morrowind instead, but I can see why they chose the ones they did
The only significant omission IMHO is Wizardry. There are so many firsts in that game it's scary- I think most people forget how lame 99% of all Apple games were.
FPS? (Score:2)
9-2 were roleplaying games and then number one is a first person shooter?
How does that work? I guess at least they had the decency to name Torment as the number 1 RPG.
Incorrect use of quantum (Score:1)
Jeez. It makes me clench up my fist every time.
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Article misses its own point a little (Score:5, Insightful)
Planescape: Torment is awesome, but it's probably, technically, redundant to Fallout. Fallout was the first (IIRC) Black Isle-style RPG, which are notable for being RPGs in the old sense, and it's Fallout that made the quantum leap; P:T and Baldur's Gates et al "merely" polished that leap. That opens up a slot.
Many people are mentioning System Shock 2, which I'd point out isn't that different from System Shock 1, which itself is clearly descended from Ultima Underworld, which is what should get the nod on that line. Also, interestingly, all from the same company (more or less; SS2 was developed by Looking Glass offshoot Irrational Games and Looking Glass and published by Electronic Arts [wikipedia.org].
Oblivion simple doesn't belong. Morrowind may. I'm striking it because I've seen many games like that before and I'm taking the "quantum leap" idea at its word. I'll replace it with Ultima 4, for introducing the idea that RPGs can be more than brutal slaughtering, something still underrated today. All main-stream Ultimas are from Origin.
Dues Ex I can't speak to, never played it, so I'll defer to the article and leave it up there.
And finally, while I don't know whether I'd pick Chrono Trigger per se, but surely "the first significant JRPG" deserves a mention. However, the problem here is that there really were no quantum leaps, it has been a very smooth evolution. (Final Fantasy I is half Ultima-pre-IV and half Bard's Tale, for instance, not a quantum leap.) I've never played FF7, but one may make the argument that if you're going to try to tell a cinematic, linear story (which has it's place, although I wish they had something we could all agree to call them other than RPG), it is a quantum leap to be able to have cinematics and full motion video.
I note with interest that in all four cases where I changed something, all the relevant choices came from the same company. There's Black Isle RPGs, Origin RPGs, Looking Glass (first-person action) RPGs, and (weakest of all/most competition) Square RPGs.
Maybe consolidation isn't the best thing for the industry after all.
(OK, no "maybe".)
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But shouldn't that prize then go to Dungeon Master? UUW owes a lot to that Amiga/Atari classic...
Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
"Which role playing game over the entire history of the genre do you think has made the biggest 'quantum leap', and why?"
I'm going to go with Dungeons and Dragons for $100, Chuck.
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I'd say that the d6 system from the guys who did the old Star Wars game was probably one of the best "breakthroughs" or "revolutionary" in RPGs, then White Wolfs d10 World of Darkness system. Gurps would be another one, but I personally detest it.
And then finally, the d20 version of D&D again (at the end of the list and begining) because the current system is quite an advancement and with i
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Chances of a "Successful Encounter" with that "lawful good" female
4d20 roll with +5 for each of
1 clean clothes
2 good clothes
3 being able to hold a conversation
4 epic wallet of cash
must roll 30 no criticals no saving throw on response
Now Players what are your chances?? (oh btw you can apply any wis or luck bonuses you have)
They call that a Quantum Leap Awards ??? (Score:1)
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Doh! What happened to all the format? Anyhow, I'll use HTML next time... that was my first post, sorry for the inconvinence.
I guess slash-dot need alot of design improvements.
Even at the sigh-up page it's not according to standards nor obvious, with many places violating the Neilsen's Heuristics.
Oblivion??? (Score:2)
Morrowind was a quantum leap with enormous highly detailed world and even more freedom.
Oblivion was just a sequel with better graphics, some freedom added in a few places and lots of it removed in others. And role-playing elements cut more than by half, comparing to Morrowind.
Oblivion as third? (Score:3, Insightful)
Fallout and PS:T are well-placed, but I'd have probably put at least one of the Ultimas or possibly the series as a whole on #1. While I've never been that much of an Ultima player (I played mostly 7, 8 and 9 and more recently started to play the excellent Ultima V mod for Dungeon Siege) I admire and appreciate it for being everything I want in an RPG. It's a wide, open world where you can do what you want. What you do has an actual impact on the game world - choice and consequence. You have your great dialog, too. Maybe not as excellent as PS:T, but as good as you can get with branched keyword dialog systems. Also love the fact that you have to keep track of your quests and things like that yourself in the earlier parts of the series.
And what does Oblivion have? A shallow plot, a tiny amount of new lore, idiotic dialog, hand-holding at all times, no politics at all; not between individuals and not between factions. Nothing. Morrowind was 10x the RPG Oblivion is, and that's not even mentioning Daggerfall. Oblivion is the coffin in which TES will be buried. It may be a good action game, but it stinks as an RPG.
It's a new RPG (Score:2)
- You never see your character, you just see an out of focus misty blob. This is to simulate Heisenberg's principle of uncertainty
- Sometimes your character will be able to go through solid walls due to tunnel effect.
- The scenario will look suspiciously like a madman's vision of atoms and crystaline structures
- The caracter will spend most of it's time buzzing around the same place (atom) and will only
Google, Please Define Quantam (Score:1)
1. The smallest physically realizable unit of something.
2. The smallest discrete amount of any quantity (plural: quanta)
3. The smallest 'unit' of energy. A quantum of light is called a photon.
Explain to me again why people use a word that is defined as the smallest difference to describe what they think are big changes?
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It's because of that #$%^ television show (Score:2)
-- Muon #2876101789465197026590175892316895