Rough Guide to Outsourcing In China 181
zentec writes, "An article in Design News chronicles WiLife's outsourcing project to China (they make consumer surveillance cameras). It's a tale of a language barrier, misplaced EEPROMS, backyard engineering, incorrectly assembled parts, sloppy engineering, and flaring tempers. That, and an initial defect rate of nearly 80%." In the end WiLife seemed happy enough with their outsourced manufacturing. This is a nitty-gritty account of life under globalization.
Please don't insult Slashdotters... (Score:5, Funny)
And this is surprising? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:And this is surprising? (Score:5, Insightful)
i) Extremely good ones
ii) Extremely bad ones
I have worked with both, both domestically and in Asia.
To get a good CM to build your product you will have to choose them really carefully, and you will also need to have enough volume to make it interesting for them. They will gladly work for razor thin margins as long as you are building enough. However, even if your product is a big-ticket item, it is very hard to get any electronics manufactured in small volumes unless you can buy 100% of the parts from Digikey.
With some excedptions, a good Asian manufacturer can get electronics built cheaper, faster, and with much better quality than any American shop. It's not just their lower labor cost but also that all your upstream suppliers will be geographically close to the factory, which not only drasstically lowers shipping and handling costs, but also allows the buyers to work with them directly instead of you haveing to go through at least one layer of incompetent middlemen.
This guy had a bad experience. Shit happens. It is not indicative of what is possible with proper planning and a good business arrangement.
Re:And this is surprising? (Score:4, Informative)
PCA is industry lingo for Printed Circuit Assembly (with parts installed), as opposed to PCB, the bare board.
Outsourcing doesnt differ from any other business (Score:2)
You have to look for and carefully choose an employee you can rely on while hiring someone new.
You have to look for and carefully choose a local supplier that you can rely on while getting new suppliers.
You have to look for and carefully choose computer hardware that you can rely on while buying new computer related stuff.
WHY should outsourcing differ ?
There is no answer to this.
Because outsourcing is NOT different.
You have to look for and carefully choose the company/individu
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When there was 'no' globalization, united states did not have access to a market that consists of 1 BILLION people - china. Same goes for many other countries united states now does exports to.
If there is no market, there is nobody to sell to. There is no reason to produce, there are NO jobs.
The point is that, japanese and chinese economies became COMPETENT.
united states was the country to lead the world in free market economy once, but then it grew complacent. t
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Right so it's all a matter of buy to sell ratios. If you sell more then you buy then you win. If you buy more then you sell then you lose.
China is a big winner because they sell more then they buy. Same with oil countries. Other countries the shoe is on the other foot.
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The solution then seems to be leveling out of all the countries, all selling as much as they are buying, and it seems this is where we are headed to.
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Each country is different. Suffice it to say most countries will buy more then they sell (measured in dollars) because they all need gasoline at a minimum. If your country is not r
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Is that really how you think? That the only measure of gain and loss is by examining each one of your interactions in isolation?
Anyway to answer your question...
Yes he won. I shopped there, his profits increased, my spendable income decreased, the money I could have earned in interest by saving that money decreased, the money I could have made by investing that money decreased.
He won, I lost. I lose everytime I pay interest, I win every time I make interest.
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The FACT is that US productivity continues
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Yes, labor costs in china and india HAVE BEEN phenomenonally lower. They have started to increase as per the supply-demand workings. However, even when they were paranormally low, the civilization-old market concept applied - TOO cheap, low quality. As always, if you wanted to have good work done, you had to choose and pick a contractor that had a reliable record and did good job.
Will the situation change about outsourcing, now the
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If you somehow think that using a manufacturer in China means no contracts or legal issues, then you are out of your tree. In fact companies that are not totally clueless will stipulate in the contract that their home state or whatever has jurisdiction
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and there is no denying that many companies which outsource are either unaware or blatantly ignoring what state and federal law might be in effect to outsourcing in their area. Also theres no denying that most of the companies are willing to undertake such risks, as it helps them escape many legal burdens, whether you label them as labor costs too or not.
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Whatever.
The facts are that Labor is really one of the ONLY savings, and it's so huge that
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Unfortunately, many of the products the US makes right now that the rest of the world wants are software and content (music, movies, etc.), which most of Asia rips off without paying for it. If the money for pirate versions of Windows, Hollywood movies, etc. was flowing back to the US, their balance of trade would be considerably better than it is.
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Do not forget that in turn china and southeastern asia absorbs a whole lot of u.s. products, which are physical and have much more cost to produce and produced by companies that employ many many more people than the entertainment or it sector.
Not only to mention that china is one of the biggest buyer of u.s. government bonds, supporting u.s. government debt.
So its a tradeoff.
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So now that I accept that I'm in this global economy I would like to purchase my camera directly from China and cut out
Ever notice how the old
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I stand corrected. Mal*Wart does have them. I tend to avoid going there. I suppose the brand name is still worth something. RCA closed the last of their US plants in 97. I worked at the Indianapolis RCA plant in the 80s when they still made sets.
Did you notice any other name on your TV, i.e. manufactured for RCA by ____ or have they dispensed with all that? For example, RCA didn't make their VCRs even though they held several key patents. During the 80s, most were made by Hitachi and private labeled as RCA
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Like brands that actually lasted (even ones such as Curtis-Mathes), finding anything domestic with a circuit in it is like finding the Holy Grail. It supposedly exists, but it is mythical in nature.
We have an RCA TV in our living room.
Rebranding doesnt count. I hope you have space for the extra TV to replace that one when it implodes.
As for Walmart, mind the various things they've done (Union hostility by closing a store in Canada (Jonquiere) that "card ch
the operative word (Score:5, Insightful)
The key word: "happy enough". Meaning, not entirely happy, but they saved enough money that it doesn't matter if everything was stellar. It doesn't matter if the products have an operational life of 13 months. As long as they chug along for a while, and break outside of warranty.
I'll keep paying a premium for german engineered and manufactured goods, thanks.
I think I'd go Japanese (Score:4, Interesting)
http://www.reliabilityindex.co.uk/tophundred.html
Re:the operative word (Score:4, Funny)
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Local best buy is full of software CDs that cost five bucks. A few years ago fifty dollars was cheap software.
Microsoft is selling windows + office in taiwan for $45.
Yes it's having an effect and the effect is just starting.
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China (Score:5, Insightful)
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Indeed I am, as well as their use of loopholes in content laws to get their stuff in a country - if there's a rule on content, you end up with something that looks remotely domestic, but has tons of foreign design in the parts; examples being the Pontiac Vibe, Saturn's VUE, the entire lot of pre-BMW Rovers as well as the Civic-like Triumph Acclaim.
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But since GM is already losing billions of dollars, your comment does not make much sense.
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The biggie is that they REFUSE to develop reusable modular parts. Instead, every freakin model of car has unique parts that change almost every year for no damn reason. This results in significatly higher engineering costs because you are designing the same damn part 30 times instead of one, significantly higher production costs as you need 30 times more tooling, lower quality since your costs are higher and you are only producing 100,000 parts instead
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Speaking of Detroit management - around the time I graduated (not too long ago), I went to interview at GM and Ford. I was amazed that they were actually proud of the fact that their manufacturing process is now "so good" that they "only" have a +/- 5% variation. And they basically explained that it means if a trunk door was 5%
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I've imagined all of those Daimler engineers who used to lay awake at night wondering why in the hell Chrysler didn't do this or that and how screwed they'd be in the NA market if they did, now that's what they're doing themselves. It's really a case of a competitor know a company better than the company knows itself, they might eventually turn Chrysler back into Chrysler.
Apparently "Measure Twice, Cut Once" is absent... (Score:3, Interesting)
Globalists would trade with Nazi Germany (Score:5, Interesting)
What with China's political purges (50 million dead there), harvesting of political prisoners (millions dead there) for body parts, the citizens slaughtering their baby girls (200 million dead there), China is in every POSSIBLE way worse than Nazi Germany.
Welcome to the world of globalism and free trade: for America to compete, we need to go back to the days of sweat shops, factories falling apart, workers being chopped to death by faulty machinery, superpollution, and collapsing mines...er, wait a minute...
Oh and before you neo cons say it, no, there isn't a new thing for misplaced workers to retrain for. Biotech is going offshore. Alternative energy is just going to replace traditional energy jobs. We're not going into a new era of explosive job growth - except, oh maybe the tourism, cashier, waiter and janitor industry. Got belhop hat?
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you got me there (Score:2)
If Libertarians are such big kids, then why is it that you can't even pwnz0r New Hampshire with your much ballyhooed free state project thingy? Oh wait, your response is going to answer that question for us!
Re:Globalists would trade with Nazi Germany (Score:5, Insightful)
If the USA closes its borders to trade, China's size and emerging economic power will mean that America will be fucked eventually anway. You've got the choice of being a barista now, or a serf later.
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You technically did. But the Bush admin have been lobbied by a lot of people to start shit with canada. From the cattle ban on dicey scientific grounds to soft wood lumber (all trades bodies point to the US being wrong).
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Things will continue along this path until the free-traders acknowledge the problems with their philosophy:
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Except of course, Japan eventually did reach US levels of income, and did start to import some goods from the US, despite protectionist Japanese trade barriers. And the US standard of living has roughly doubled in that time. So, in essence, your post is complete drivel.
How so? (Score:2)
We can trade with Europe. Offshoring to Europe is ok in my book - they have human rights and worker protections. Nice vacations, too.
Given China's human rights problems, if we let China grow, we're screwed. MAJORLY. The whole world will follow their example, they will NOT follow our example. They don't have to.
O
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It's too bad Britain and other Western imperialist powers never had to pay for their crimes.
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Disclaimer: I am a Chinese Canadian.
I really have to object against the use of the word "genocide" in your post. The Japanese in WW2 were known to be especially brutal to the Chinese civilian populace, but what went on was classic pillage & rape, it's a long way from genocide. Don't use that word just to sound dramatic. I'ts like accusing a rapist of being a serial killer. They may both be terrible crimes, but they are not synonymous.
And might I add that your evidence is entirely anecdotal? The pres
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As I said, this this an excellent trolling method. I am very impressed with your skills.
Here you are. Have a nice day! (Score:2)
http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/200 5/01/08/china_plans_to_ban_selective_abortion_over _gender?mode=PF [boston.com]
Now here's a more conservative estimate:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/06/19/chin a-usat.htm [usatoday.com] (40 million baby girls destroyed)
That's only 3 times worse than the # of Jews killed in Germany.
Now you're haggling with me over the magnitude of how much worse China is than Germany.... not whether or not it is.
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You're awesome. You're going on my friends list.
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Your credibility is utterly buried at this point.
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Wait... what were we talking about, anyhow? Something about offshoring?
the Karma Farmer dictionary (Score:2)
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I especially liked how the one guy didn't even get the lampshade reference. It was grim, and a little stomach turning, but I like my comedy like I like my coffee.
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Oh and before you neo cons say it, no, there isn't a new thing for misplaced workers to retrain for.
How is it that the unemployment rate in August (according to United States Bureau of Labor Statistics) was 4.7% (down from 4.9% a year earlier)? If outsourcing has been going on since 2000 and there's nothing there to replace jobs lost to it, shouldn't the unemployment rate be higher?
underemployment (Score:3, Insightful)
Let me repeat: they have jobs, ergo they're not unemployed. But they have jobs that are different, and far, far lower paying, than what they were trained for. Which is why the middle class is shrinking. But don't believe me. Read this. http://www.factcheck.org/article249. [factcheck.org]
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Well, I didn't believe you, and checked myself. That article talks about the middle class change in 2003. What about in 2004 and 2005? Turns out that in 2004 [census.gov] and 2005 [census.gov] the middle class gained by +0.4% and +0.2%, respectively, while the lower-income group changed by 0.0% and -0.5%, respectively, using the same measures of middle and lower class as used in the referenced article.
These were
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By trading with a country like that you are automatically helping that government directly in their effort to commit human rights
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Aside from the idea that capitalism is amoral, I agree with nothing the grandparent said. Comparing China to Nazi Germany is laughable.
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I'm a bit befuddled by your reply, considering your sig. Without knowing the marginal cost of
Reminds me of this summer (Score:4, Insightful)
The wires probably are enamel insulated (Score:2)
Sure, there could be a bad patch in the insulation, but there are other more likely faults than that.
shake lights vs. generator lights (Score:2)
Anyways, went to another gun show, and saw a booth with all sorts of LED light stuff. The guy had a strip of white LEDs for undercounter lighting, and LED conversion kits for Mag [maglite.com]
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Chinese massage parlors... (Score:3, Funny)
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1. Plan a trip to China the same way you would plan an extended backpacking trip into the wilderness. Start with a backpacking checklist. Leave off the obvious items of tent, sleeping bag and sleeping pad. Pretty much everything else on your list is useful.
Oh, they'll *love* your shotgun and bear spray, I'm sure. On a serious note, you don't need camping supplies, you need what every backpacker would carry in a third-world co
Can we run a side-by-side comparision .... (Score:2)
The language barrier may be easier to overcome (although some places in US have rather thick accents), but everything else?..
China Vs USA (Score:3, Funny)
That sums up manufacturing in the USA, so what problems did they have in China?
Communism sucks (Score:2, Interesting)
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Pity Taiwan was never Communist, or your argument might have some merit.
How bad must it be in the US? (Score:2)
what are you really saying? (Score:2, Insightful)
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What you see is not what you get (Score:4, Informative)
The factory had pictures of their product in their brochures. I was about to place a sample order when I noticed a picture of the product being made on their production line. It looked NOTHING like the one in their brochure. Closer inspection revealed that their product brochure consisted of products made by reputable manufacturers but with the brand names edited out (quite poorly). Shame on me for not spotting something so obvious before.
Their actual products - a poor quality copy.
Of course, that is my experience as a sample of one out of one. Hardly representative, I know, but kinda representative of TFA.
No mention of the "Third Shift" (Score:5, Informative)
Or they take your design, modify it, and manufacture their own (possibly inferior) version. They have everything they need - board layouts (schematic can be derived), binary object code (for FPGAs, flash memory, etc), parts lists, etc.
Just a hazard of outsourced production.
Same experience different country (Score:2, Interesting)
* Not very hard workers
* Always on a leave
* Snack and coffee every 30 minutes
* Think they know better than you
* Surf and chat most of the time rather than to improve their competency in the offering
* Request business class for a 8 hours flight because else this is too painful
* Most extended expense sheet you can imagine
By the way we are a German software company with an office in the US....
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Also, this point: "* Think they know better than you".
Well, yes. I should hope you are hireing consultants that know more than your employees. What is the purpose of spending money on their consulting if you could just ask Joe down in Marketing and get a similarly educated answer?
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Also, this point: "* Think they know better than you".
Well, yes. I should hope you are hireing consultants that know more than your employees. What is the purpose of spending money on their consulting if you could just ask Joe down in Marketing and get a similarly educated answer?
It's not bad workers. It's bad managers that make being a good work
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Engineered in America (Score:3, Insightful)
From what I've seen, products engineered 100% in the US should have significantly better quality, why not point that out?
I'm not really against Chinese outsourcing, but if there IS a quality difference in the end product, then that information could be vital to consumers.
Not that we have the best engineering consistently, but I've never seen a product made in the US released with such poor quality as some of the imports I've seen.
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Stuff like a box for a "blue shirt #123", with the barcode written over that says "red shirt 456", and inside, you find a ripped, gree
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From what I've seen, products engineered 100% in the US should have significantly better quality, why not point that out?
I'm not really against Chinese outsourcing, but if there IS a quality difference in the end product, then that information could be vital to consumers.
Not that we have the best engineering consistently, but I've never seen a product made in the US released with such poor quality as some of the imports I've seen.
except people wou
Another example of get rich quick managers (Score:2)
Not really (Score:2)
"how can anyone competant outsource anything critical to another country without having someone on staff fluent in the language?"
Hmmmmmmm. Com
A Newbie Goes to China (Score:5, Insightful)
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Washing/sanitizing silverware with tea when eating in Chinese restaurants is p
Slashdot, bangin the drum (Score:2)
With Zonk, it's all about hating Sony (er, I mean $ony). (Hmm, Sony is Japanese. Maybe the new Slashdot editors just don't like Asians.)
Where's the wholesome Microsoft-bashing and SCO-hating that built this site?
In summary.... (Score:2)
Welcome to China.
Still compelling ... (Score:2)
I've heard quite a few outsourcing screw up anecdotes. It just doesn't matter. People may pay lip service to quality but then they buy on price. The cost differential is so great companies will endure alot of bad experiences to get the china price and eventually, they will find a good vendor. I think alot of these outsourcing ain't working out stories are just wishful thinking. Don't get me wrong. I'm no fan of outsourcing. I just don't want like minded people getting their hopes up when they hear stories l
You get what you pay for... (Score:2)
I'm sure a less ethical company would just "overlook" that and send lead-painted product out the door.
Most said are true, BUT not all. (Score:2, Interesting)
1. Hotels and restaurents are not that clean. McDonalds fries are the closest thing you get to clean cooked food. They prefer to just dump living animals in boiling water enough to kill them, not cook. This approach is not to our liking. And it smells horrible.
Hotels are aquariums, and you can see the waiter move to the next table with a live Lobster, put it in boiling water for a few seconds to kill it and then server it. The
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In other words... (Score:2)
So they were willing to accept mediocrity over decent quality.
And people wonder why so many electronic items barely last a year or so. Sheesh... Guess I won't be buying a WiLife product any time soon.
mod parent up, underrated (Score:2)
Cisco IP stolen by Huawei:
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2003/0709huawei.
http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/corp_012303.html [cisco.com]
I have an example about Cherry qq ripping off the Chevrolet Spark, I'll post it later.