Your Garbage Can Could Be Spying On You

macs4all writes "Garbage cans all over England are under surveillance tonight. And not by sleepy, fallible humans. This article in Live Science claims that at least 500,000 'wheelie bins' are now using RFID technology." Though that doesn't sound very dire, the article points out the ease with which your consumer spending habits could be tracked. "Although this is frankly a story that is difficult to take seriously, please note the following. You should remember that many of the articles you buy (and sooner or later throw away) are now also equipped with passive RFID tags that detail the item's brand name and product name. If it's possible to scan the tag on the trash can with an ID, it's possible to use similar equipment to quickly scan your can to uncover your purchasing habits."

also used in disputes

[legoburner]

One of the main 'justifications' that the local councils gave was that they were able to settle 'who owns which bin' disputes. When the bins are all at the kerb after pickup, assholes sometimes take their neighbours bin (bins all look the same since they are issued by the council), then they get into disputes and nobody can prove who owned what unless they had their house number painted on the front (also common). The council try to justify the RFID by saying it allows them to quickly see who the bin really

Re:also used in disputes

[Draveed]

Why would you care about getting back the same garbage can? As long as they're all the same size, who cares? All they do is hold your garbage so no matter which one you get, they're all dirty.

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[legoburner]

I wouldn't underestimate how petty people who hate their neighbours can be. Not much use applying rational logic to their actions.

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[rucs_hack]

agreed, I have a neighbor who is so obsessed by this that, rain or shine, she will put out the bins of everyone in our street, and put them away again *the very second* the binmen are done with them.

Unless she's taken offence at you for some imagined reason (usually something which has no foundation in reality), in which case she won't put them back for a while, a couple of weeks at least.

It's sad really.

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[artifex2004]

Why would you care about getting back the same garbage can? As long as they're all the same size, who cares? All they do is hold your garbage so no matter which one you get, they're all dirty.

Think: broken/missing lids, hinges, handles, wheels; the can having been run into/over by a car; or the can being stolen. (If your neighbor's can is stolen, and he takes yours, it's not like you can use his.)

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[amcdiarmid]

The cans may not be the same: On My Block of Washington, DC - the government (Which spends $$ spraying for moskuitoes and theoritically fining people for having breeding-cups in their yards) hands out trash cans without drainage holes. This means when is rains a few inches the night that a full trash can goes out - the cans don't get emptied because the G-Men can't lift the cans.

My "Identical" Cans have drainage holes drilled in the bottom. Yes I would like to get them back. Further - I drilled holes in

Re:

[smittyoneeach]

Have stencils somehow grown ineffective in merry England?

Re:also used in disputes

[cortana]

Stencils don't allow our local governments to send a £700k computer systems contract to a councillor's brother in law.

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[smittyoneeach]

One sensed a bottom line somewhere...

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[Potor]

not being british, i ask: is council (here) synonomous with social housing, or simply with municipal services? if the former, it sounds like the poor are gonna get screwed more by this than anyone else, according to your take. so, what's new?

Re:also used in disputes

[legoburner]

The council is the local government (mayor, etc) and they take in a fixed amount of money (everyone pays the same, even rentals) as a housing tax. They pay for roads, garbage collection, schools, local police, etc. (along with Govt subsidies for the same). Council housing is housing that is either provided or subsidised for poor/disadvantaged people but there is a huge queue to get it. Single mothers seem to be the priority, as well as people who have been granted asylum. As such the level of disadvantage tends to result in no-go areas or high crime rates around council housing so the council housing estates are generally looked down upon (though this differs from area to area, some are actually quite nice and have good standards).

Re:also used in disputes

[jimicus]

Both.

Municipal services (such as domestic rubbish collection, street lights, road maintenance, planning permission) and social housing are all handled by departments within the council. Funding comes from a number of sources, but ultimately it's 90% tax in some form. (You do have to pay rent on council housing)

The purpose of the tags is probably not to investigate buying habits. More likely, it will be combined with weighing equipment on the lorries which take the rubbish away to find out who's throwing out how much. Ostensibly this is to ensure that everyone is using the various recycling schemes properly, though I wouldn't be surprised if it culminates with being charged by weight for the amount of waste produced.

Parents with young children (how exactly do you recycle a nappy/diaper?), those without transport (not all councils take all recyclable material; some won't even take glass) will probably be the most affected by this - and, as you say, most people who fall into both brackets are poorer and so will be screwed harder.

Re:

[megalomaniacs4u]

how exactly do you recycle a nappy/diaper

Well before disposable ones became all the rage they were made of cloth and could be washed. As a baby in the seventies I suffered with Terry Towelling nappies, my kid brother ten years later got the disposable kind. Actually several of my old nappies are still hanging around my parent's place - my mum uses one as a cloth for cleaning the bathroom and my dad has a could in the garage.

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[b0s0z0ku]

Parents with young children

Cotton washable diapers.

those without transport

Councils in the UK expect you to deliver your recyclables to *them*? In most places in the US, another truck just comes around weekly and picks up recycling bins.

-b.

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[b0s0z0ku]

Of course this leaves a few residents wondering where the heck to put all these different bins (we don't have honking great big driveways like you do in the US)

Plenty of Americans live in cities and town centers, too. Not all of us have doublewide garages, V-8 SUVs and 5000 sq ft plastic houses :D

-b.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

I know. Some of us have quintuple-wide garages, 12 cylinder SUVs, and 10000 sq ft houses made from endangered owls.

Re:also used in disputes

[grassy_knoll]

The purpose of the tags is probably not to investigate buying habits. More likely, it will be combined with weighing equipment on the lorries which take the rubbish away to find out who's throwing out how much. Ostensibly this is to ensure that everyone is using the various recycling schemes properly, though I wouldn't be surprised if it culminates with being charged by weight for the amount of waste produced.

My local city government wanted to add RFID tags to our plastic trash bins, not to monitor the citizens but to monitor those who pick up the trash. Think of it like workflow management.

As the bins were picked up, the idea was an RFID reader would "tick off" each bin as picked up, eventually marking an entire route as completed.. if the trash collectors picked everything up.

Funny enough, the RFID tags kept comming off the bins. Something about damage in handling, warping of the plastic bins in extreams of weather... almost like some people didn't want the system to work.

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[khallow]

People are *way* too attached to disposable... well, everything, to the point that people have forgotten or can't imagine any other way, even though only 1 or 2 generations ago, people wouldn't think of being so wasteful.

Better to waste cheap resources than to waste expensive resources like time. It's a tradeoff. Diapers are a classic example. Frankly, I think disposable diapers are worth it just in the time and effort it saves. We haven't even touched on the environmental footprint of laundering washab

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[DrXym]

I don't see bin tracking being a big deal, however at the same time RFID is not going to solve all issues. As you say, people paint their house numbers on bins. The council could easily send everyone a sticker to afix to the top which did the same. A barcoded sticker could even serve to identify the bin, and to allow reading by the weigh machine.

An RFID on its own will be no good. There will instances where some extended family of scumbags swap their bin with the little old lady next door so she gets the

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[jacksonj04]

What gets me is that these are council owned bins. Note council owned, meaning the council own them and can therefore fit RFID tags to them all they see fit.

Not only this, but if you check the literature involved in refuse collection services you will note that it says you are liable to be charged anyway if you throw more than a reasonable amount of rubbish.

I have no objection to the council checking how much rubbish I put through their service. I don't even object to them working out what type of rubbish i

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[legoburner]

Yes that is probably the real reason. From random Internet polls, there was an almost insignificant level of support for this and I think that it will just increase fly tipping to an extreme level. Most people seem fed up with paying such high council tax already that paying for rubbish collection would be enough to get them protesting. I would hope that it doesnt actually become reality but you never know what they will try and push through next.

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[pe1chl]

There are several cities here in the Netherlands that already have such a system in operation. Indeed, the cans are weighed and identified by number, and the total amount used to calculate the waste disposal bill.

It is not a bad thing, in principle. I would not know why a family with 3 babies that fills two cans a week would have to pay the same as an individual who does not even have a full can after 3 weeks. Differentiation of payment makes people more aware about what they do.

However, there are proble

Re:also used in disputes

[Blue Stone]

> One would expect such problems to disappear over time (especially when the system is widely implemented).

One might, but in the UK, councils began charging businesses for the depositing of commercial waste in land-fill sites, a few years ago.

The result has been an explosion in the cases of fly-tipping: innocent land-owners - those who own a piece of open land - and it can be anything from a building site to grassland to a carpark - have refuse tipped on their land, and then face a huge bill to clear up the rubbish. If the landowner fails to clear it up, the council can, and does, apply a court order forcing them to clear it up, at their own cost - and if they fail to do so, the council will clear it up themselves and send the land-owner the bill!

In some cases, fly-tipping will even occur on land that is supposedly secure - fenced off - and the fly-tippers will even cut through padlocks to open gates to land where they can offload their waste.

The reason for this is that it's very lucrative to the fly-tippers - who undercut the council's charges (and don't generally care about the exact nature of the rubbish - hazardous chemicals, medical waste, etc.) and very good business sense for the businesses who use fly-tippers.

Charging people for the disposal of waste discourages them from using the service and leads people to seek other cheaper or no-cost ways of ridding themselves of their rubbish.

If the scheme outlined in the news-story is implemented, domestic waste will join the massive problem that commercial waste fly-tipping is causing here in the UK. Neighbour's bins will be used, public areas, parks, skips, anything to get out of paying.

The solution? For commercial waste - slap a blanket charge on every business that is likely to use the service that they pay along with their rates/taxes, and can't get out of - it becomes pointless for them to avoid using the official land-fill. For residential waste - stick with the system we have now - a service charge via the grossly unfair and unjust council tax.

-Blue

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[pe1chl]

In a country where people behave like that on a really large scale, it is tough to keep a "western civilization" in place.
Probably the country will fall down to an antisocial state where everyone only does what he deems good for himself and does not care what the effect on overall society is.

Not that this would be too amazing, but that is already what its government does in world politics. Together with the USA. And the effects are clearly visible.

Look, no question marks!

[6Yankee]

1. Implement retarded RFID bin thing
2. Pocket kickback from RFID maker
3. PROFIT!!!
4. Observe householders tipping rubbish all over the countryside
5. Meet landfill reduction targets
6. Avoid fine
7. MORE PROFIT!!!!
8. Increase council tax to cover clean-up of fly-tipping
9. Make only a token effort at cleaning up
10. STILL MORE PROFIT!!!

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[Dravik]

You can also remove the government monopoly on trash disposal. Charge a per kilo cost to dispose of rubbish at the land fill and let private enterprise do the rest. People who are real cheap will deliver the trash to the ladfill themselves. Others will start businesses and provide the service for much less than the city currently does.

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[pe1chl]

Of course, as also explained in another posting about such a system operating in Belgium, the tariff structure includes a fixed fee additional to the per-kilogram tariff.

Breaking RFID tags

[wilper]

So now we have to microwave our garbage aswell?

Re:Breaking RFID tags

[lordkuri]

Oh, I see you've tried my ex-wife's cooking. Man she gets around!

This article is retarded

[FhnuZoag]

If they could scan garbage for RFID tags and identify your purchases, then they can also LOOK THROUGH YOUR GARBAGE and identify your purchases. In fact, the former is a smaller privacy risk than the latter, because if they are mass-scanning, then you are more likely to be a statistic instead of being carefully examined as an individual. Not to mention that checking through your trash is likely to reveal bills and so on that are far greater a risk. Hell, for the same data, they can just mash together informa

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[Descalzo]

You've never had a Hot Pocket?

without rfid tags...

[Facegarden]

Without RFID tags on the bins, someone could still walk by with a scanner and scan your trash to see what you've been buying... The only difference is that having a tag on the bin makes keeping track of who's trash it is marginally easier, but it's not impossible without them... I'm afraid that we're going to see many articles like this in the future, as people slowly discover RFID tags in things that didn't used to have them... RFID readers on garbage trucks... they can see what I'm buying! Wait... they could already see what i have been buying with my credit card... Unless i purposefully try to obfuscate my purchases of certain items with cash, chances are my arbitrary use of cash versus credit gives everyone who has access to that data a good picture of what i buy... Yes, there are new scenarios rfid tags create, but it's all the same idea. The point is things are changing... Marketing has been getting more invasive ever since it started, but we live out lives just fine today. Tomorrow, if i get a target ad on goldfish crackers because someone finds out i ate some goldfish crackers via the wheelie bin, it's not going to change my life... And yes, it could be used by bad people, but my point again is everything is like that... So lets relax a bit... -Taylor

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[TubeSteak]

RFID readers on garbage trucks... they can see what I'm buying! Wait... they could already see what i have been buying with my credit card...

Who is "they"?
Why do "they" have to have access to your credit card?

Maybe "they" are a bunch of thieves driving around with an amped up & tweaked out RFID reader and "they" are looking for tags with a high dollar value attached to them. Actually, a garbage truck would make a good base of operations.

My point really has nothing to do with RFIDed garbage bins, only th

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[symbolic]

I'm afraid that we're going to see many articles like this in the future, as people slowly discover RFID tags in things that didn't used to have them

Yes, and wasn't it not too long ago that companies like Wal-mart swore up and down that RFID was going to used *only* to track inventory? People shrugged, figured that it wouldn't be *too* bad if its use was limited to that. Now we're faced with the next logical outcome- something that was visible a mile away.

I'm sure governments and marketers can think of all

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[symbolic]

I'm not as worried about the thieves as I am about the government.

Won't work on me.

[onion2k]

This wouldn't work for me. I try to maintain a healthy lifestyle. That means buying lots of fresh fruit, vegetables, meat, etc. If there's any RFID tags in the things I buy then the chances are pretty high that I'll have eaten it.

Remember folks, microwave your unmentionables...

[Antony-Kyre]

Remember folks, microwave your unmentionables before throwing them out in the trash. While you're at it, buy a new microwave and save the old one for this type of purpose. I figure 30 seconds in the microwave will make sure the RFID chip cannot be read.

Re:Remember folks, microwave your unmentionables..

[wkk2]

New microwaves have RFID scanners so they can detect RFID chips. They will only hum like they are zapping a chip. :-)

Re:

[Antony-Kyre]

Does that mean no more microwaving any cans of soda pop if it contains an RFID microchip?

Now my garbage can?!

[walnutmon]

This is a direct violation of my inalienable right as an inhabitant of this earth to have a right to life, and a right to privacy. I have never been so pissed off in my life. I can't even control my anger right now. Why can't these governments just let us live our lives the way that WE SEE FIT, without trying to monitor EVERYTHING WE DO! This is the last straw, I will RISE UP and fight this AT ALL COSTS. They will never take my FREEDOM.

Oscar

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[EnglishTim]

I think that may be a slight overreaction. Would you react the same way if they just write your name on your wheelie bin? I don't really see the difference.

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[markdavis]

>Would you react the same way if they just write your name on your wheelie bin? I don't really see the difference.

Oh, I see a BIG difference. If they have a scanner on the trucks that can read RFID, they can read not only the tag on the bin, but also all the tags on the trash IN the bin. And it can happen VERY quickly. Furthermore, the huge majority of people won't know they were doing it, or what dangers that implies.

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[dorkygeek]

Well, they can already scan your garbage for tags now, this doesn't require a tag on the bin itself!. Sorry, but how stupid are you?

Besides, all they would get from the garbage scanning is a bunch of serial numbers which means nothing to them. They can only be used to identify products in conjunction with the product database of the entity which applied the tags. And in order to find out which product database you have to consult, you had to actually look at the piece containing the tag, which renders the

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[markdavis]

>Well, they can already scan your garbage for tags now, this doesn't require a tag on the bin itself!.
>Sorry, but how stupid are you?

Why must people like you resort to name calling? You do realize it makes you sound so juvenile.

"They" would need some type of ID on the trash can to use to associate the bin with a person/residence. Some RFID tags do have product information and do not require a transaction database in order to determine what it is. Then the two pieces of data- owner and product, coul

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[dorkygeek]

Why must people like you resort to name calling? You do realize it makes you sound so juvenile.

Because the stupidity of some people really bugs me, so I have to tell them.

"They" would need some type of ID on the trash can to use to associate the bin with a person/residence.

You can do that without any tags as well: just look at the house in front of which the bin is placed. Note also that a tag does not give you much more information. A neighbour could as well have dropped his garbage in your bin and

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[jimmichie]

Look, Apple couldn't have released GarbageCan without some form of DRM - the big Garbage companies would never have allowed it.

Oh wait.

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[timmyf2371]

They will never take my FREEDOM.

Yes they will. And they'll take mine too. And while we might be able to delay it, we won't ultimately be able to stop it.

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[timmyf2371]

I'm not saying that I like it, just saying it's inevitable.

Look at the majority of the population; "think of the children", "terrorists", "gas prices" etc will all help to smooth the transition. Those of us that do care about freedom and rights will resist as long as we can, but we aren't going to be able to change much overall.

Only a cataclysmic event, such as a World War or a civil war might help to change attitudes and help somewhat.

Trash Tracking

[JonnyCalcutta]

This is just stupid. Any interference with peoples rubbish, especially if it leads to a 'rubbish tax' - say on putting recyclable items in a non-recycling bin or throwing away too much rubbish (there are whispers about these happening) - will just lead to more people dumping their rubbish illegaly. People already feel they pay way too much in Council Tax (local tax based on property value which amounts to over $3000 per annum and which funds the local councils - ie rubbish collection, local roads, schools, etc).

People will simply fill the bins up to the non-chargeable limit and then throw the rest out at street corners on their way to work. I can see a good market developing for pedal bins that weigh your rubbish and tell you when you reach the limit. Or a new practical joke of putting bricks on your neighbours bin.

We have this where I live

[Saib0t]

In Belgium, at least in the city of Chaudfontaine [chaudfontaine.be] (link in french), we've been having RFIDs on our trashbins for several years already (4? 5?).

While the paranoïac among you see this as a potential invasion of privacy, I see this as an easy way for the city to have me pay taxes only on what I put in the bin.

The process is simple. The trucks come over, put the container on a scale, scan the RFID automagically, empty the bin, voila. If it's empty, I don't pay.
The net result for me is that I get to pay [chaudfontaine.be]:
32 € per year
+11 € for the container rent per year.
+1.60 € for each time my bin is not empty
+0.16 € /kg

Which is way less than I used to pay before.

Plus, I get to dispose of my glass stuff in containers accessible all around the city for free.
I get to dispose of my plastic and metallic (soda cans, tins, etc.) in special bags for free.
I get to dispose of 3 cubic meters (106 cubic feet) of other stuff (grass, leaves, dirt, sofa, planks, etc.) for free

The RFID on my trashbins are thus an easy way for the city to make those who dispose of more stuff pay more, which is as it should be.
I have yet to see the trash guys peek inside my stuff...

Cool system IMO...

Re:We have this where I live

[cs02rm0]

That's fine, but it's not how it'd work in the UK. They'll come up with a trash tax which will probably add more than 100 GBP to our council tax which often exceeds 1000 GBP a year as it is. Meanwhile they only collect the rubbish every two weeks and refuse (no pun int...) to take it if you've overfilled the bin or not sorted the recycling how they want it. Of course, they don't actually recycle 90% of the stuff you'd expect... no newspapers, magazines, cardboard food packaging, plastic, etc...

Rip off Britain's a bleeding con and it's no wonder 0.5 million of us are emigrating each year.

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[Curmudgeonlyoldbloke]

> Rip off Britain's a bleeding con and it's no wonder 0.5 million of us are emigrating each year.

So that's why the population's historically low right now then?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5281360.stm [bbc.co.uk]

(or maybe not)

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[cs02rm0]

>> Rip off Britain's a bleeding con and it's no wonder 0.5 million of us are emigrating each year.

>So that's why the population's historically low right now then? >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5281360.stm

>(or maybe not)

We have a rising population because in spite of record emigration levels, we have record immigration levels which are significantly higher.

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[Julian Morrison]

There is going to come a point when a private (in both senses of the word) bin collecting service is going to be commercially viable. People will say "it's like BUPA, I'm paying for it twice, but this way I'll at least be treated like a paying customer".

Ten years down the line, everyone will be paying a "bin bill", which won't be awfully much, and they'll collect weekly or on demand for an extra fee, and they'll not bug you about recycling (which is, in nearly every case except aluminium, an anti-green net

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[cs02rm0]

So for now you get it once a week and it could drop to every two weeks... yet I've just got back from a few weeks in Cyprus where the rubbish is collected daily - and somehow they manage it without paying 7-14 times as much council tax. Naturally... they don't pay anywhere near as much as we do for that service.

Re:We have this where I live

[Rogerborg]

Well, Belgium is a dull, law abiding sort of place. Here in Blighty, the patriotic thing to do would be to dump your trash in your neighbour's bin and make them pay for it.

Misleading argument...

[Chaffar]

What you failed to mention is that Chaudfontaine has a population of 21,012 [wikipedia.org], so applying this kind of project isn't too hard. In case somebody comes and throws stuff in your bin you just need to call up the authorities and tell'em that Jean-Pierre from down the street threw his junk in your garbage can.

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[Saib0t]

What you failed to mention is that Chaudfontaine has a population of 21,012, so applying this kind of project isn't too hard. In case somebody comes and throws stuff in your bin you just need to call up the authorities and tell'em that Jean-Pierre from down the street threw his junk in your garbage can.

Well, 2 things prevent Jean-Pierre from dumping his trash in my can.
First one is that my trashcan is, except during the pickup day, in my courtyard behind a door
Second one is that the trashcans come w

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[mikael]

In our apartment complex, we have communal rubbish bins. For every thirty six apartments, there are six large wheelie bins (plus a couple for newspapers and empty bottles/cans). Even if the bins were RFID tagged, there is no way of itemising each bag of rubbish (a shredder for bills/receipts only cost $10 from the local supermarket).

Given that the current government seems to be in favour of "garden grabbing" (the conversion of family homes with 200 foot gardens into apartments), the use of bin-tagging isn't

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[tomhudson]

"Most people won't steal as easily from someone they know."

A bit naive, I think. Most people are KILLED by someone they know. Ditto for sexual abuse of children, Certainly true for domestic assault.

The only time my place was broken into, it was by the neighbours kids 2 houses down, and yes, we got along okay with their parents, which is why it was such a "surprise."

Or look at the stupidity going on in the workplace - people swiping each others' lunches (exlax-chip cookies to the rescue!), petty theft

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[Gnavpot]

While the paranoÃac among you see this as a potential invasion of privacy, I see this as an easy way for the city to have me pay taxes only on what I put in the bin.

Whoosh.

This story is not about the dangers of the bin itself being scanned. It is about the dangers of the contents of the bin being scanned.

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[Gnavpot]

Whoosh.

This story is not about the dangers of the bin itself being scanned. It is about the dangers of the contents of the bin being scanned.

Or to be more clear:
The article is about scanning bins. The question raised in the resume is about scanning contents of bins.

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[julesh]

Yeah, well, the reason the British are objecting to it is that, as the Daily Mail said when they broke the story a few days ago, the GERMANS ARE BUGGING OUR BINS!

Well, they didn't put it *exactly* like that, but you could tell thats what they were trying to get across... ;)

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[Saib0t]

Le dude, I happen to live in America, where the government has contracts with ALL the major commercial databases and therefore now enjoys almost complete and total access to all information on the majority of Americans (exception: those who still live in caves). We have reason here to be paranoid....

In terms of paranoïa, I failed to mention that we have:
- mandatory electronic ID cards with a chip containing birthdate, birthplace, sex, address, marital status, national number, name of spouse, etc.

Paranoid Fluff.

[celardore]

The tags that are installed in your bin are there to identify a bin with a household and issue an instruction to the truck to weigh on lift. There's no worthwhile talk of it tracking discarded packets RFIDs and profiling you based on your garbage....

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[markdavis]

You are a VERY trusting chap, aren't you? You can't possibly see how or why that same scanner could be used to quickly record every RFID in the bin. Isn't it "worthwhile" to be at least a little concerned about the possible abuses, as the number of items with RFID chips increases each year?

Misplaced hysteria

[technogogo]

I think it was that dreadful UK tabloid, The Mail on Sunday, which created this "your bin is bugged" hysteria last week. They stirred up lots of fear and doubt by using terms like "bug" to describe something that is just a serial number. I bet if the new bins had a bar code, nobody would care less. Instead the media is making out that this RFID chip can somehow directly spy on what you are throwing away.
In my town, local newspapers like the Daily Echo http://www.thisisbournemouth.co.uk/display.var.903 767.0.whats_bugging_you.php [thisisbournemouth.co.uk] have jumped on the Mails fear-mongering bandwagon and are doing that all too common trick... publish over-the-top scare stories one day, then run a 2nd story with feedback from 'horrified readers' the next. A sure sign of media hype.

But what baffles me with this situation is the tabloid press in the UK say very little about the real privacy issues of the day.... the ID card scheme, this new national database of childrens details, DRM seeping into our products and purchases. But garbage containers that have a number - oh the horror! Jeez!

Ok just one more thing... I know RFID tags are not liked by slashdot. I'm no fan of them either. Making bins identifiable is a step towards a new form of non-recycled refuge taxation. I don't think thats a bad thing if it causes people to recycle more. But these new taxes tend to be on top of existing taxes. So its not like we'd get a local tax offset first. This angle is generating concern as represented by the public feedback. But the mdeia spin on the capabilities of the technology amaze me. Though it if makes the ID card scheme falter, its a good thing.

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[arkhan_jg]

I live near bournemouth (used to live there too, but shifted west a bit), and the thing that's annoyed people is the complete lack of information about the chips and the poor info about the new recycling scheme. Basically, they've been worried that the council is about to start spying on the amount of their rubbish disposal and charging an extra 'waste' tax based on how much they throw away. Given the the council tax is already supposed to pay for waste disposal, it's a bit cheeky to start charging extra, a

These things are easy to spot and remove

[Rogerborg]

So take them off and pop them in the microwave, then replace them. Dire warnings aside, the workload on modern refuse collectors is so high that it's vanishingly unlikely that the system will be set up scan and refuse bins without an RFID before emptying them, and it's a fair bet that the beaurocracy won't be set up effectively to investigate who owns which anonymous bin. Do you see the chap on the bin lorry giving a damn? He just wants to get done as soon as possible.

Re:

[markdavis]

I think you are missing the point. We all know the obvious reasons they are doing it- and they are good reasons: preventing violations of trash rules, perhaps using it to charge people less that produce less waste, preventing people from stealing other's trashcans.

The problem is what it COULD be used for, which has nothing to do with the chap emptying the can. Imagine what a covert agency could discover about you or your family by instantly knowing and tracking future RFID tags! Based on staticical proba

Bingo!

[KwKSilver]

You are dead right. It's less of a case of abuse at this moment, but the potential for future abuse that is scary. It is also virtually certain that the potential will be exploited--sooner or later. The next step could be as simple as tracking everything and using that to determine what our political leanings are. "Looks like Mr. Soandso is a (left-, right-) wing nut who may vote against us. Send some boys over to "persuade" him to stay home on election day." ... or religious leanings (atheist, Buddhi

Re:

[Inda]

I have been following this as I live in the area where these bins are being used. This news story is from the same area:

Bin spy bug vigilante

AN ex-cop has removed spy bugs on wheelie bins and sent them back to the council.

Former chief inspector Martin Meeks said he and his neighbours were incensed at the microchips, which measure the waste thrown away.

The 62-year-old, of Winterbourne Monkton, Wilts, said: "If I had gone into someone's house as a police officer and planted a bug without approval, th

Fear Marketing 101

[pipingguy]

Buy cross-shredding devices (and dump the stuff in different bins while not being watched - maybe burn it first), up your crypto and be very, very wary.

Re:

[cdrguru]

In Arizona paper is recyclable. Shredded paper is not. Because of contamination concerns, if you shred it, it goes in a landfill.

Lol, this is way too easy

[britneys 9th husband]

Got a right wing religious wacko neighbor? Throw away your condoms, XXX magazines, liquor bottles, etc in his trash. Muslim neighbor? Pork rinds. Slashdotter? Empty boxes from MS products.

Handling the trash problem the *right* way...

[b0s0z0ku]

... regulate how things are packaged. It is *fucking inexcusable* that a 3/4" x 3" USB thumb drive comes in a 6" x 6" plastic bubble package) that's difficult to open without slicing your hand open, to add injury to insult). Enourage the use of cardboard packaging which is (a) biodegradable and (b) flammable without producing too much in the way of noxious fumes.

-b.

Re:

[Bishop]

It would be cool if producers were taxed for all packageing based on weight and material. Non-recyclable and hard to recycle material would cost more. The taxes need to be applied to the producers directly to force change. Consumers won't care if a product costs an extra 5 cents because it is in a plastic bubble. Producers will. Taxing the consumer for the packageing won't work. Consumers often don't have a choice, and similar garbage taxes/fees encourage illegal late night dumping.

Re:

[tomhudson]

I hate those new packages. EVERYTHING is impossible to open without a knife.

I know that marketers think it "adds perceived value", but you know something? There's more "perceived value" in my new cell phone (I bought it without even looking at the cardboard box first) than in some $10.00 item in a plastic bubble.

Re:

[Cutriss]

Even better - marketers know that if you have to significantly damage or destroy the packaging to retrieve an item, you'll be less likely to return it if you're unhappy with it, under the fear that the store will not accept it returned in such a state.

Re:

[tomhudson]

Well, the marketers are wrong in my case - if I damage something because of the extreme measures I have to take to open it first, the store's going to take it back or have one very angry person shouting at the top of their lungs about how BS their policy is.

I did this once a few years ago over some misleading advertising (they tried to claim that the item in the ad wasn't the same one, but the stock # on the photo said otherwise). 10 minutes at the cash register, loud enough so that people on the next flo

Re:

[b0s0z0ku]

if I damage something because of the extreme measures I have to take to open it first, the store's going to take it back or have one very angry person shouting at the top of their lungs about how BS their policy is.

Better yet, put on some fake blood just before you enter the store, wear a baseball cap from your AIDS advocacy group of choice, and start yelling about how the widget didn't work and you sliced your hand putting it back into the package.

-b.

Re:

[NeutronCowboy]

Most of those impossible packages are there to deter theft of small, high value items. Think of how easy it would be to swipe a 4 GB thumb drive if it would come in a perfectly sized cardboard package that opens easily. Granted, it's still stupid that mail-order businesses have to use the same crap.

Re:

[b0s0z0ku]

. Think of how easy it would be to swipe a 4 GB thumb drive if it would come in a perfectly sized cardboard package that opens easily.

If they're worried about theft, keep the small objects behind the counter. Most small electronics shops already do that, especially with OEM stuff that comes un-packaged.

-b.

no big deal.

[sdnoob]

unless the scanners on the trucks are scanning tags on the contents of the bin.

a tag itself on a bin is no big deal provided it's only holding a number that cannot be traced to a particular person or house by itself (without the corresponding customer database from the rubbish hauler). that'd just be an electronic version of a serial number that's stenciled on bins here (in the areas that rubbish haulers provide bins to their customers).

I'm writing code for this

[cruachan]

I'm involved with writing the code for this a project using this technology for a recycling subcontractor somewhere in rural England/Wales. The RFID simply allows us to tag a recycling box to a household then collect data on the weight of recyclate returned in each box. Housholds are issued with two boxes - paper/textiles/card and glass/cans so that's the finest level of detail being collected.

The use of the data is that it will allow the recycling organisation to work out which areas are recycling a lot of material and which are not, and the intention is to make that information available back to the public on a 'community' level. What a community is hasn't been precisely defined, but it's going to be larger, probably considerably larger, than postcode purposly so individuals can't be identified. The local authority will make use of the information by identifying areas where it needs to do more to encourage recycling, and possibly to reward communities that are actively recycling.

I honestly don't think there's any significant civil liberty issues here. In effect it's no different than a gas company monitoring the volume of gas each customer uses or a water company doing similar, it's just not been done before because up until now the technology to monitor garbage out (as opposed to the volume of a commodity going in) hasn't been available.

The Government's proposals for ID cards do cause me considerable concern so I'm not at all complacent about the matter, but presumably if we think that encouraging people to recycle is a good thing then collecting data to understand the patterns of people recycling is a helpful approach?

Residents removing the tags

[tttonyyy]

In Wiltshire the papers have been covering how some of the residents are removing the tags from their bins and throwing them away because they're afraid that the electronic devices may contain "spy cameras" and other ways in snoop on their activity. Many of these people are more afraid of technology itself, however, rather than the privacy issues. The residents of small Wiltshire towns tend to be a "bit backward" (which is being generous and not mentioning anything to do with inbreeding ;) ). The council

Ok, so the bad guys know my buying habits...

[Blakey Rat]

Ok, so the bad guys know my buying habits...

Now what? Why the hell do I give a crap whether they know my buying habits or not? How could they possibly use this knowledge to harm me?

Why is this more dangerous now?

[SanityInAnarchy]

Anyone could always look through your trash and discover interesting things about you. This just makes it easier. Why is it suddenly more dangerous? What can someone do now that they couldn't do anyway?

This isn't a rhetorical question. I suspect that it is more dangerous, but I'd like to know why.

Wouldn't a simple leaflett...

[Bing Tsher E]

Wouldn't a simple leaflet widely distributed, telling people where to drill a hole in the garbage containers solve some of these problems?

I can't imagine the RFID element can be very deep in the plastic of the bin. It certainly can't be behind metal or it wouldn't reflect a RF signal to ID itself. So drill a hole through the RFIC chip and say 'goodbye' to it nicely.

If there are one or several makes and models of trashbins in an area, a leaflet with illustrations clearly indicating 'drill here' could be ea

Re:

[jimicus]

Until they start charging everyone according to how much their rubbish weighs, with no corresponding drop in council tax.

Operant conditioning?

[RKBA]

"I'm quite happy for the local council to look into charging a tax for people who can't be bothered to do so."

Seems to me a better solution would be to pay enough money for recyclables that most people would do it voluntarily. Oh I forgot, no commercial enterprise is willing to pay for recyclables because the profit margins are insignificant (ie; it costs almost as much, and sometimes more, to reuse recyclables as it does to use raw materials). But then again it isn't about saving money, or even saving t

Re:alarmist bullshit

[0123456]

"UK is a small crowded place, that's running out of landfill sites rapidly."

Only about 8% of British land is built on, and there are vast areas that could be used for landfills.

Instead, we end up with piles of 'recyclables' that no-one wants, and have to pay to ship them to the Third World so they'll dump them for us. Recycling in the UK is a huge scam, and this is just another way for councils to charge more for doing less.

Re:alarmist bullshit

[FhnuZoag]

Your garden is not built on. Would you like a landfill site there?

(a) Landfills have to be kept carefully away from other areas due to pollution and other concerns, so they have a much greater footprint than space they occupy themselves.
(b) Landfills have to be located reasonably near where the garbage is produced. They have to be geographically stable areas. And so on. Many of the places not built on are places that are not built on for a reason, and should not be landfill sites for the same reason.
(c) Just because land is not built on does not mean that nobody cares about what goes on it. If YOU aren't happy to have a landfill near your home or place of work, what right do you have to ask Farmer Bob, or Park Manager Sue, or whatever to have a landfill anywhere near them?

so you want to fill the country with plastic crap?

[fantomas]

"Only about 8% of British land is built on, and there are vast areas that could be used for landfills."

You scare me. Are you one of the filthy bastids who walks down the street dropping rubbish as you walk, goes on picnics and leaves crap everywhere, because it's not your back yard so you don't care? Mate, just because there is space to dump stuff, it doesn't mean it makes the place a whole lot nicer if you do. I'd prefer I could go for a walk in the countryside rather than walk between landfill sites in te

Re:

[Inda]

I tried to find you an online source but failed.

This story, and other stories mentioning recyled waste being shipped abroad, has been in all the major UK newspapers this week. The parent poster is telling no lies.

Re:

[SpooForBrains]

Perhaps if there was a sensible recycling scheme in place, but, surprise surprise, there really isn't. As a family of 5.99 we produce more than the average amount of rubbish, neither I nor my wife drive, so there is no sensible method of getting our recycling to a recycling centre. We had a limited paper collection system, but our recycling bag was pinched one week and despite numerous requests to the council to have it replaced, we're still without one.

Still, I don't need to worry. The council hasn't deign

Re:

[KZigurs]

btw - did you knew that recycling is bullshit? Really.

One: You nicely recycle your "paper". Singe newspaper or cereal box in that transparent bag will void it. Whole bag is automatically forwared to usual landfill - no recycling. I still haven't figured what do they expect to see there.

Two: cost of recycling. If overall cost and pollution to produce soft-drinks can is set at 100%, same can from recycled materials will cost 125% (or thereabouts, forgot the exact details). Same for glass. Really. Take a look

Re:

[tomhudson]

Geez ... there's a much simpler solution.

Just put your garbage in a box, wrapped up to look like a present, and leave it in your car with the window open.

Or, recently bought yourself a new air conditioner, computer or dvd player or other home electronics? Fill the box up with garbage, seal it up, and park at your local shopping mall.

Re:

[Millenniumman]

Hehe, that is an amusing idea, especially if you use manure instead of trash.

Re:

[tomhudson]

Don't laugh ... here's another true story.

One day the sewer pipe broke and the basement filled up with you-know-what. Pretty gross. When we had bought the place, we left the original carpet, and put a new one over it. They were both ruined, so I rolled them up (sopping wet) and dragged them through the garage and to the curb. It was well below freezing, so they quickly turned solid.

Of course, now that they're solid, they don't smell like raw sewage ...

Rush hour comes, and I see a station wagon stop .