It Does Little and Not Very Well 318
wiredog writes "A Washington Post (frryyy) review of the Nokia 770 Internet Tablet, a handheld Linux device. The reviewer complains about the lack of keyboard, poor WiFi implementation, outdated software, non-standard memory card, and almost as many crashes as an unpatched Win98 install."
The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:4, Insightful)
From TFA: This latest failure underscores once again the main problem with miniaturization...that while we can continue to make things smaller and smaller, their interfaces (input - keyboard/mouse, output - screen/speakers) must remain large enough to be useful, and the larger, the better. Even if you totally discount other problems like removable data storage, the main problem of user interfaces will continue to stand in the way of true miniaturization.
I'm still wondering why we haven't seen a personal data device marketed with either a roll-up or projected keyboard, fingertip mouse, and VR glasses? Freed of these constraints, the device itself could easily be made small enough to be wearable.
Re:The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:5, Insightful)
I've thought about this for awhile and for the life of me I can't seem to come up with a compelling way of making a small, multi-purpose interface with a dealable learning curve. For these devices to succeed they have to be amenable to absolute manipulation in the same way that standard, non-digital physical objects are, and that's a mighty challenge that I don't think anyone has been able to succeed at to date.
Re:The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't even know about that -- there's definitely a non-trivial market for cellphones with big, big buttons, for example, which implies that cellphones haven't exactly nailed the UI thing even for single task devices. Nokia has even started making this an explicit part of their marketing; see their new "Buttons for Humans" campaign [nokia.com] for an example.
Re:The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:2)
For those of you not familiar with the common, top s
Re:The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:2, Interesting)
Inputs like this? Bluetooth Laser Virtual Keyboard [thinkgeek.com].
Re:The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:2)
Easy to fix (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Easy to fix (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Easy to fix (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Easy to fix (Score:2)
Re:Easy to fix (Score:2)
Re:Easy to fix (Score:2)
Re:The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:2)
Pix here:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/08/cebit-web-site
Re:The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:2)
Re:The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:2)
It's useable, barely. A nightmare for a touch typist as there's nothing to tell you whether you're finger is on a key or smack in the middle of 3 keys.
I predict you won't see real miniturization until implants are available. Wait til you see what your grandkids can do!
Re:The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:3, Interesting)
We did.
The Pepper Pad [pepper.com] has an 8.4", 800x600 screen, a 624Mhz Xscale CPU, a 20GB disk, Wi-Fi, bluetooth, USB, and a full keyboard for about $800. It runs Linux and includes both Firefox 1.5 and Flash 7.
Re:The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:2, Troll)
In other words, this [sharpsystems.com] except with a swiveling digitizer screen.
Re:The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:2)
Re:The Input/Output Hurdle (Score:2)
And the reason for that is known. From the article you linked to:
It still is pretty kewl (Score:5, Informative)
Despite the shortcommings, it is a great way to ssh into my server(s) and fix things.
The browser also works with my online banking, which is rare in portable devices.
It may not be the best consumer device, but if you know what you are doing, then it has a lot more usefullness than many, if not all of the other micro-portables.
It is well worth the $359.00 it takes to buy one.
Cheers
Re:It still is pretty kewl (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know what version of the firmware the author had, but I haven't had any crashes with the latest one, and I only had one with the version my preview copy shipped with. He also seems to be grasping at straws claiming it has a non-standard memory card. RS-MMC is as close to a standard as anything else I've used; I have more devices that take RS-MMC than anything else, and it works fine with my cheap USB card reader.
Re:It still is pretty kewl (Score:3, Interesting)
The price point is actually decent. If Sharp had only priced their newest Zauruses (the C1000/C3xxx series) at the same price point and actually sold them in the US, they'd sell like hotcakes. Pretty much every complaint about the Nokia is gone with the newest Zaurus series. Sharp missed the boat on that one.
Kudos to Nokia for actually selling and supporting such a device to the Western market.
Re:It still is pretty kewl (Score:3, Funny)
Morse Code or Speech Recognition? (Score:2)
Devices designed by committee are generally stupid. If Apple had an iPhone that worked properly, I'd be all over that. As it is, I haven't found a phone I like better than my old Nokia 3650, and it's of poor design!
Google Voice Recognition (Score:2)
Get the voice recognition
VUI (Score:4, Insightful)
I so much agree on the tiny, I detest having to go get new cell phones, it has gotten to the point I can barely use them they have gotten so small. All this new really small stuff is designed with young humans with tiny fingers and great eyes in mind it appears. It doesn't matter how tiny the device is if you just can't use the thing, doesn't matter how many features it has if you can't see the screen or manipulate the buttons.
Note to hardware companies-look around the western world, the population with a lot of disposable income is neither real young nor do they have great eyes. Stiff fingers/arthritis and bifocals are *common*. You want those folks business, keep that in mind when you are designing stuff. These companies are telling folks who think nothing of dropping 100 grand on an RV that their market segment isn't worth releasing products designed with them in mind. Pretty much a huge missed business opportunity there near as I can see..with my bifocals. Keep saying FU to that market and it will reply in kind. Cater to it, you *might* get some bizznezz...
"Review" misses the point. (Score:4, Insightful)
2) And - the review did not mention the O/S crashing - just applications crashing. Linux is not the problem here.
Anyway, on to the meat:
Nokia's 770 platform is only just starting. [newsforge.com] The 770 is available for retail sale, but not really intended for the general public.
There's an upcoming release [nokia.com] of the linux derived O/S it runs (in 2006) and Nokia are actively courting developers. (including discounts for gnome hackers) [linuxdevices.com]
I say kudos to nokia - they're (as the review shows) releasing a cool bit of hardware kit and they're going to let the software developement community (both free, open & proprietary) fill in lots of gaps. I hope it works out.
Oh - and rereading the review - it appears the reviewer's "biggest complaint" was the lack of keyboard. That's what seperates a tablet from a tiny laptop retard
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll tell you what -- I use a fairly excellent mobile device for my daily needs (it has basically replaced my need for a laptop and I rarely use my desktop). The biggest draw is that it has a full Qwerty keyboard that, while being very small, I can easily use to communicate easily.
If I'm going to move to a device like the Nokia 770, I would *expect* that it have a hidden/retractable keyboard that I could easily use when I wasn't just pointing and clicking on links or scribbling a quick note.
If no keyboard is what seperates a tablet from the rest of the exceptional mobile devices out there these days (including my Sidekick) then I'll stick with what I have and wait for EDGE/wifi support.
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:2)
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:2)
Which mobile would that be? You have my interest.
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:2)
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:5, Insightful)
If you sell it to the general public, then you are intending that they will buy it.
The fact that it is open source should NEVER be an excuse for putting out a buggy retail product.
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:3, Informative)
In this "close to standby" it awakes instantly and lasts a week or so between recharges.
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:5, Insightful)
Read down to:
Admittedly, that comes after multiple problems of applications crashing separately, which is why you may have missed it.I say kudos to nokia - they're (as the review shows) releasing a cool bit of hardware kit and they're going to let the software developement community (both free, open & proprietary) fill in lots of gaps. I hope it works out.
Oh, yeah -- this is fantastic! It may be buggy and useless as it's currently sold, but the important thing is that they're giving discounts to GNOME developers who will hopefully then fix it for them! I'd better buy one right now!
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:2)
No, the digitizer screen that you can write on is what separates a tablet from a tiny laptop. It can still have a keyboard and be a tablet!
And believe me, the difference matters -- there's many "tiny laptops" around, but almost zero tiny tablets, especially ones with keyboards!
Tiny tablets with keyboards (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Tiny tablets with keyboards (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, the Toshiba is an example of a big tablet, not a tiny one!
I have to agree (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I have to agree (Score:2)
Oh, is that all? Well, sign me up. But add the wi-fi drops to that list.
Hmm. Not too compelling. Maybe v3 will be a great product - if they allow it to get that far. But I fear that the problems with v1 leave them wide open to even a slightly better (if much less expandable) product shutting them down.
Re:I have to agree (Score:4, Informative)
GPRS is not an issue for me, since it connects happily to the 'phone in my pocket for that. Since my 'phone has its own battery, the drain on the 770 is quite small connecting to the Internet like that.
Storage is expandable by just plugging in a bigger RS-MMC. Currently this limits you to 1GB.
I also don't know what you (the reviewer?) are talking about with the WiFi drops. I have used mine on WiFi for hours at a time with no issues. Perhaps this means the power saving feature that drops the WiFi connection when there are no active connections for a short period. If you are reading a long web page then you don't want WiFi on draining the battery all that time, for example.
The three biggest things (I think) they need to fix for the next generation are, in order:
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:2)
Bundle the 770 with that E61 [nokia.com], and you will have a dynamic duo.
You are blind (Score:2, Interesting)
Not everyone that says MS products are good or Linux sucks are posting flamebait/trolling . Plenty of people actually hold this opinion .
"unpatched win 98" . Oh no ! He said MS doesnt suck enough ! OMG ! Kill him !111!!!!11!!one!
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:3, Interesting)
Here is what the article did say: "In two weeks of testing, it locked up and spontaneously rebooted more often than any computer I've used in that time."
In my opinion, if a computer locks up, or spontaneously reboots, or crashes, it is indeed the fault of the operating system.
Saying that it is not the fault of the O/S is like Microsoft saying that bluescreens aren't the fault of the O/S, they ar
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:2)
That said, I don't see where the OP got that anyone blamed Linux in the first place. Poorly written kernel-level drivers or unreliable hardware will destabalize any OS.
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:2)
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:2)
There's an upcoming release of the linux derived O/S it runs (in 2006) and Nokia are actively courting developers. (including discounts for gnome hackers)
I say kudos to nokia - they're (as the review shows) releasing a cool bit of hardware kit and they're going to let the software developement community (both free, open & proprietary) fill in lots of gaps. I ho
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:3, Insightful)
Not to nit pick or to even suggest a defense of Win98, but it was fairly stable for the OS it was, not having a kernel like NT.
Win98 and mainstream applications is pretty crash free. The problem with Win98 is that it, even more than Win2k or WinXP lets third party software screw with the system, and due to the nature of the Win9X kernel technology, there is no protect from bad applications, from protecting system files to not fully contro
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:"Review" misses the point. (Score:3, Informative)
More uses for 770 (Score:3, Informative)
Re:More uses for 770 (Score:3, Insightful)
This is worth looking at:
http://linuxadvocate.org/projects/roadster [linuxadvocate.org]
Re:More uses for 770 (Score:2)
youu dont know how to use one (Score:4, Informative)
crashing? dont load mega-websites on a machine with sixty-four megs of ram. lots of sites work fine.
does little? there are tons of emerging third party apps emerging... did that guy even check the maemo wiki page?
most useful third party app on the seven-seventy is fbreader. lets you read any txt files rotated or not, large/small fonts and so on. most of your standard ebook features are there.
another useful app is the xterminal. if you ever use ssh to connect to remote sites to do stuff, you'll find this xterm-in-your-pocket highly useful.
Re:youu dont know how to use one (Score:2)
Re:youu dont know how to use one (Score:2)
Still, it shouldn't crash the application or cause the kernel to want to kill the application. The application should refuse to do the operation requested when malloc() fails -- and malloc() should fail (I hate overcommit).
Different strokes for different folks (Score:5, Insightful)
All I can say is that I finally saw one of these about three weeks ago, and immediately (as in, next day) went to CompUSA and bought one. I love it. It does exactly what I want, and the only complaint I have is the lack of software -- but that will be quickly solved as the community ports apps to it. www.maemo.org is very active.
So it does what I want, and I think it's great. Obviously, if it doesn't do what you want, you'll think it's awful/pointless/a waste of money.
It has replaced my Zaurus (and has the added benefit that the form factor is almost identical to the Zaurus, so I can even use the same case for the N770).
Re:Different strokes for different folks (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Different strokes for different folks (Score:3, Informative)
I didn't understand these at all. I have had exactly one freeze/reboot -- immediately after installing a 512MB card and symlinking a bunch of system files so that they actually resided on the card instead of the N770's internal RAM. I did have a nasty moment when that reboot occurred, wondering if I'd broken something badly, but in fact after it rebooted everything
Could be worse.... (Score:2, Funny)
I have to agree (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I have to agree (Score:2)
Question: Does it playback xvid or divx movies? Right now I have a library of stuff I've ripped to my desktop machine. Sometimes I like to lay down with my TabletPC and watch movies over the network. Just curious if the Nokia tablet would more or less do the same job or if I'd find myself frustrated with it.
Re:I have to agree (Score:2)
The bad news is that the device is not powerful enough to play anything close to the native resolution of the screen... You'll have to downsample to something like 256*144 (as 16:9) or 320*192 (as native 15:9) if you want to look at 25 frames per second. The good news is that movies looks surprisingly good even at those resolutions and the screen is really good.
Should Work Great At Borders... (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
they need to stick with it (Score:2)
As for the 770, the hardware is nice, kind of like a big Palm; it's the UI that
Re:they need to stick with it (Score:3, Insightful)
The bad thing is that Nokia had access to a perfectly fine platform: Familiar Handhelds.org Linux. The good thing is that Nokia has hired the team that did Familiar in the first place, so hopefully there will be a merge between Familiar and Maemo in the future.
Palm OS - still good, but obsolete? (Score:2)
What makes Palm OS obsolete, in your opinion?
It is still the device that I turn to for portable information-management with long battery-life. I would buy a Treo if they worked with Grafitti.
I think Palm's biggest problem is software development tools -- I haven't tried their Eclipse-based studio yet, but I would like to know the comments of people who have used it.
What i want in a PDA (Score:2)
Keyboard and IBM-style nipple-mouse instead of a wand and touchscreen.
Foldover format like a Psion 5 - should fit inside a suit inner pocket
Inbuilt Bluetooth and WiFi
Proper POP/IMAP client that handles SSL and StarTLS
office-style apps that read either MS formats or Opendocument
web browser than handles AJAX properly
ability to either add a SD card or similar for storage
O/S irrelevant. I just need the features, I don't think anyone offers
I'm happy with mine (Score:2)
My Nokia 770 is great (Score:5, Interesting)
What the Nokia 770 *is* - it's an internet tablet with an very high-resolution 800 pixel wide display, with a basic email client, RSS reader, multimedia support and some apps thrown in. It does come with expandable memory, and there are other apps you can load onto it for free.
It *isn't* a laptop replacement, nor a PDA, nor a phone, nor is it a games machine or a personal multimedia player although it can do all of these to an extent. Primarily, it's designed to give you a much better web experience than you would get from a cellphone while it fits in your pocket. If you choose to extend it with keyboards, new applications and even things like GPS then it's up to you.
Two words of warning - I bought mine directly from Nokia (I had one of the first) and the first unit was faulty, at which point I discovered that Nokia's customer service is not great. And to get the best out of the N770, some work is required in terms of patching and loading on apps.
One last thing - it's great value. In the UK it works out as £250 including tax and shipping which is cheaper than many mobile phones.
"Laptop Replacement" is a misnomer (Score:2)
The only exception to this fairly self-evident situation is one of marketing: an older,
very pleased with mine. (Score:3, Informative)
I can read news sites, RSS feeds, check my Gmail, all works just fine. It's also servicable as a MP3 or video player - certainly not as good as an ipod, and reformatting videos to appropriate resolutions/framerates/formats can be a PITA...
I think of it as more a compact second (ok, in my house it would be 4th) computer that I can pick up and check my mail and a few news sites without wandering off to another room to log in. I don't generally respond to mails on it - it's bad at that, but that's not the point.
Does Little, But Does (Score:2)
I have to admit that the thing is a gimmick today. But real soon, a platform like this will be indespensable. The hundred dollar
Re:Does Little, But Does (Score:2)
He doesn't get it, which isn't a surprise. (Score:5, Interesting)
I use it *constantly*, because it's has a real web browser (Opera w/Flash) and is pretty easy to connect over WiFi. It fits nicely in my coat pocket, and has a glorious, bright display. And it's an open and well-supported platform for development.
The reviewer makes some good points for his world. It doesn't play well with Microsoft. That's not a factor in my world. Sure, it doesn't play WMV9. But it does play MPEG-4.
It could use some additional memory. I moved the root fs onto a card to deal with that, and it's much more stable now.
The network messages are a little obtuse. Basically if any connection has reached a timeout (why there's a timeout for WiFi I'll never know), it says "Network Connection Error" when you try to send a packet. So you click 'Connect', pick a network, and you're off.
It uses RS-MMC because that's what the rest of Nokia's products use now.
It works flawlessly with my RAZR on Cingular, and the thought of EV-DO has me looking at the Sprint/Samsung RAZR clone.
Make no mistake, this is a 1.0 product, and not really ready for prime time. But it *is* ready for the
Wifi (Score:2, Funny)
WiFi on the 770, however, may not work much better. The review model I tested frequently failed to log on to my home network's wireless signal for no apparent reason; uselessly vague error messages such as "network problem" left me guessing about the cause.
Now, don't go blaiming his home wifi setup. There's nothing wrong with it, I haven't had any problems over the last two months, and I'm two miles away using a Pringles box as an antenna.
"Does little and not very well" for $200, Alex! (Score:4, Funny)
What is "Apple
What is "Karl Rove"?
What is "Windows 1.0"?
What is "Windows ME"?
What is "Microsoft Bob"?
What is "Moeller SkyCar"?
What is "3DO"?
What is "Buran"?
And the Daily Double,
What is "FEMA"?
Re:"Does little and not very well" for $200, Alex! (Score:2)
Few things.... (Score:2)
MEMORY
64 MB is a paltry set of memory for Linux. Would have been much better with 128 MB of ram. There's also not enough rootfs space either. Notice ye hackers doing things like Swap on the RS-MMC....I don't have to do that on my Pocket PC!
RS-MMC
RS-MMC??? I can't really bitch that it's not standard because it is (follows MMC) but SD or even transflash would have been a way better choice. IN fact, here's what to do in the next iteration
Great - for what it is (Score:2, Interesting)
All that said - I love it
Does little my butt. (Score:3, Informative)
Citrix? (Score:3, Interesting)
Has anyone tried to get something like this up and running?
I've been deploying tablet PC's in an industrial enviornment that are essentially expensive thin clients, it would be nice to find a replacement at almost a 10th of the price.
Good for tinkerers (Score:2, Insightful)
In other words ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Ok, then what's an alternative???? (Score:3, Insightful)
But... (Score:2)
Re:Give me a fucking keyboard (Score:2)
Web browsing, making phone calls, checking your cases in RT, checking in on your servers, pinging machines from the field, etc., etc.
F*** the Keyboard ! give me STRONG IR ! (Score:2)
Wireless and all is top, but what I really wanted was a 10 meters IR in addition to the wifi and ethernet.
A nice homy tablet, allowing me to indulge in a "potato-couch" lifestyle. I could manage my VCD/DVD/TV/Video Projector, possibly some home automation tools, etc + web browsing, possibly some mail, etc.
Some remotes offer such capabilities, strong IR, web access : Phillips Pronto, ar
Re:Give me a fucking keyboard (Score:4, Informative)
2. RS-MMC? I found a 2 gig one for under $100 so that doesnt seem to bad.
Actually this could make a LOT of sense. It has bluetooth. Combine it with your cell and you have internet access everywhere.
It has WiFi. I go to a few places that have free wifi but I never use it. I do have a notebook but it is too heavy to carry with me every where. I could see me using this at those locations.
This could be a very nice little device. I could see it as an ideal car computer. What it does seem to lack is a USB host port
Re:Give me a fucking keyboard (Score:2)
It does have a USB port, and this can be put into host mode using the utility that flashes the firmware. The only slight problem is that it is unpowered. If you have USB devices that don't draw power from the port, then they might work. Failing that, there is a hack to connect a 9V battery to the pins of an adaptor cable and use that. Someone did this to use a USB keyboard with
Re:Give me a fucking keyboard (Score:2)
Any chance of an audio in port hiding on that thing as well?
Re:Give me a fucking keyboard (Score:2)
Not that I'm aware of, although it may be possible to connect a bluetooth headset to the device. I've not tried.
Re:Give me a fucking keyboard (Score:2)
The rest of the specs are weird, too; as the WaPo points out, why use RS-MMC? Full-sized MMC fit in my 6230i phone, why could'nt they fit in a device 4 times bigger? It's like chewbacca: it does -NOT- make sense!
My Nokia phone has the RS-MMC in it . I'm betting your phone is older (i.e. 3 + years old) ? I think their new phones/devices are all using the RS-MMC cards. Why ? I bet they have lower power consumption than full sized cards.What about a chording bluetooth keyboard? (Score:2)
Re:Windows user reviews Linux (Score:2, Interesting)
"The Nokia 770 takes longer to boot up than some desktop computers (nearly a minute) and offers battery life no longer than that of many laptops (4 1/4 hours of nearly continuous browsing). In two weeks of testing, it locked up and spontaneously rebooted more often than any computer I've used in that time."
The "unpatched Windows 98" jab must be from some Linux f
Re:Windows user reviews Linux (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, we could probably load onto it a more stable kernel version, and better apps, but what consumer would do that? Linux advocates should be pissed that this device gives such a bad impre
Re:Windows user reviews Linux (Score:2)
Good luck getting OO.o to run on a device that has 64MB or RAM and no swap...
AbiWord and GNUmeric are both available for download [maemo.org], although the port of AbiWord doesn't read word documents. Installing apps from the web is trivial; click to download, say open, and then click yes a couple of times.
Of course, the correct solution would be to save the document as a PDF and read that on the device...
Re:Input & OCR (Score:2)
I'm sure you're saying this based on the "about $500" that MS claimed when the UMPC's wrere announced. Well, hate to burst your bubble, but Samsung just announced pricing for the Q1 (and a May 1 launch) at about $1200. Apparently the other UMPC manufacturers are also struggling to get under $1000.
That's quite