Dell Protests 'Not Wintel's Lapdog' 449
An anonymous reader writes "C|Net is reporting on a protestation by Dell's CTO, Kevin Kettler, who says quite loudly that they are not Microsoft and Intel's puppet." From the article: "Essentially, Kettler argued, Dell was responsible for selecting, if not necessarily developing, many of the technologies in today's desktop computers and servers. Among standards for which he said Dell deserves credit are 802.11 wireless networking, PCI Express communications technology and 64-bit extensions to Intel's x86 line of processors."
Uhhhh.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:2)
I get a lot of money for you, and that makes you MY bitch.
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Not at the end of the story. Pinocchio ended up being a real boy.
I don't see much of a future for dell ever becoming a real boy.
www.dell.ca (Score:5, Interesting)
Isn't this like Pinocchio claiming that he isn't Geppetto's puppet?
I want a new computer.
On www.dell.ca, I selected a Dimension 3100 - it's all that I need in a general purpose PC. I clicked on the "Customize it!" button. And it seems that I can't get it without Windows. [dell.com] (Not sure if that link will work, it set a few cookies in Firefox.) Furthermore, I have serious issues with any technology company sufficiently ignorant to run IIS.
Though I've always liked Dell hardware, Pinocchio gets no sale from me.
Re:www.dell.ca (Score:3, Informative)
Re:www.dell.ca (Score:3, Insightful)
Search for Dell N Series
Chose Home and Small Business machines on dell.ca. It wasn't on either. As a purchaser with many options, I won't go through hoops to buy what you obviously don't want to tell me that you offer. I'll just go elsewhere, with the hope that a company more interested in my sale will also be more interested in providing me with a quality product.
Re:www.dell.ca (Score:2)
Grep for c=us in your link. In my case, c=ca.
Secondly, I shouldn't have to look - if they're not M$'s bitch, a real operating system will be available as an option.
Re:Replying to an AC comment about my sig (Score:2)
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:3, Insightful)
"Microsoft may bitch, Intel may bitch," but the customers want Blu-ray, and that's what matters to the PC maker, Kettler said.
At least he had something right, eh?
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:3, Funny)
To hold me down
To make me fret, or make me frown
I had strings
But now I'm free
There are no strings on me
-Michael Dell
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:2)
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:5, Funny)
Dell, you don't use AMD chips because you are afraid of Intel.
Dell, you don't sell Linux because you are affraid of MS.
You, know they are right. They are not their puppet. They are their BITCH.
RonB
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:3, Insightful)
That's correct. They used to sell systems with Linux installed on them, but they were burned when they got many complaints saying that the distro they chose (Red Hat, at the time, I think) wasn't "the right distro", but nobody would tell them which was "the right" one. So their policy now is not to pick sides a
"No OS" also costs same as Red Hat Enterprise WS. (Score:3, Interesting)
Oddly, they do the same thing with Red Hat Enterprise Linux Workstation on Dell Precision [dell.com] workstations. Choosing FreeDOS (uninstalled, no support) costs the same as having Red Hat EL WS preinstalled, supported, and with a 1-year subscription to Red Hat Network. If you customize a Precision (e.g. Dell.com -> Small Business
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:4, Funny)
"Hello, my name is David, and I'm... I'm a Linux user" *breaks down in sobs for a second*
*wipes the tears*
"I've been using Linux for over a decade now, and I just can't seem to quit permentantly. Every time I do, I just start getting a craving for the command line. I start greppin- I mean chewing at the end of my pencils, parsing perl scripts on paper, and even hand-compiling code to the x86.
"I try to go clean, use Windows or OS X. I just can't take it. It's like, everything's too pretty, you know? I just crave the cold feeling of XFCE or Blackbox.
"I've tried ways to ween myself... Topologilinux, coLinux... even VMWare... but nothing seems to work.
*tearing up again*
"Some of my friends - linux addicts as well - they tell me that I should realize that I just can't deal with an inferior system anymore. That I should accept that I simply should live that everyone else will experience the glory of blue screens of death, and just suffer with my nonlethal segmentation faults.
"But I know better. I CAN be a conformist. Sometimes, I just want to be able shout it from the rooftops: 'WINDOWS! WINDOWS! WINDOWS! WINDOWS! WINDOWS! WINDOWS! WINDOWS! WINDOWS! WINDOWS!'"
*coughs and splutters*
-- "Steve B." at an Linux Addicts Anonymous meeting
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:2)
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, he did say it, and he later acknowledged that he should have phrased it differently. He obviously meant he supported some of those technology initiatives and grants way back when.
I'm sure as hell no Gore apologist (look at my signature), and I think Gore is practically certifiable these days... but at the time, while I didn't vote for him, I got very annoyed when Bush supporters who brought up this subject. Of all the valid things to debate, people had to keep repeating this crap.
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:2)
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:5, Informative)
GORE: We need to look ahead, to protect it when it needs protecting, but not get in the way when it needs to walk alone. Like those wireless operators should have done in the North Atlantic, we should be alert to where the collisions could take place, and we shouldn't hesitate to chart a new course.
GORE: If we do that, then much more than the telecommunications industry will grow strong. This country will grow strong and humankind will as well.
GORE:Thank you very much. (Applause.)
Q: If you're talking about totally deregulating the information highway what steps do you think should be taken to ensure that the information superhighway is not captured by a few megacorporations for anticompetitive purposes?
GORE: One of the policymakers who has been meeting with us on a regular basis for the last several months is Ann Bingaman, the Assistant Attorney General for Antitrust, and our administration believes very strongly, as I said in part of this presentation, that just as suffocating overregulation can stifle competition and innovation, so the abandonment of antitrust principles and the surrender to private conglomerations of monopoly power can have the same effect.
-Al Gore Promoting the NIIA (internet deregulation), 1993
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:4, Informative)
That misquote just gets funnier and funnier over the decades, doesn't it?
(He helped in the creation of the Internet the only way that politicians ever do anything: he voted to fund it. And he never claimed to have done anything more than that.)
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:3, Interesting)
"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system"
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:4, Informative)
Which does seem to clarify that he was describing how his relationship to 'net compares to other politicians'. And it's not terribly absurd to claim that being a federal legislator who was advocating further development of the Internet in the 1980s does constitute being ahead of the game--for that particular game. I really don't think he was trying to convince anyone that he was Vint Cerf.
Some bloke with far more time available than I have seems to have gone into this [firstmonday.org] in exhaustive detail, and in a way that doesn't appear to be especially biased.
Re:Uhhhh.... (Score:4, Informative)
Great-grandparent: "Gore invented the Internet."
Grandparent: "misquote"
Parent: "took the initiative in creating the Internet"
took the initiative in creating != invented
It's a misquote. Was it well worded? No. But the misquote (which... it is) makes it seem worse than it was.
Re:Internet != NSFnet (Score:5, Informative)
Internet != ARPAnet
And did you read the GP? Al Gore never claimed to have invented the internet. That's just a strawman attack that Gore critics like to bring up continuously. Al Gore stated that he took the initiative in creating the internet, as he was the first politician to recognize the importance of the internet and did in fact promote and support its development from his seat in Congress in the early days of the net. Even Vinton Cerf [wikipedia.org] and Robert Kahn [wikipedia.org] have recognized his initiative as having been vital to the success of the internet [interesting-people.org] as it exists today.
From Vinton Cerf and Robert Kahn's joint statement:
So get a clue [salon.com] before you start discrediting other people and perpetuating gross exagerations of their statements.
WTF? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:WTF? (Score:2, Insightful)
If anything apple is responsible for wireless. They had it standard before anyone else did.
Re:WTF? (Score:2)
Re:WTF? (Score:2)
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
Please read before you post. You don't even need to read the article: the submittor ripped off the relevant article text for the summary.
Dell's not taking credit for 64-bit ISA extensions to x86. They're taking credit for forcing Intel to add them to their Pentium and Xeon lines rather than reserve 64 bit goodness for the doomed Itanium line. The point is that, rather than mutely accept the scraps Microsoft and Intel throw their way, Dell has the clout and the will to push Intel around.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Interesting)
When AMD released their 64-bit parts, Intel didn't respond and let AMD take the technology leadership position in the x86 market, in the name of preserving Itanium. Opteron started doing very well in the server market, though, and Dell's server division was getting knocked around. Their customers wanted 64-bit, and they vastly preferred an x86 chip to do it. "Why can't we have a 64-bit x86 chip?" they were saying, either directly to Dell or indirectly by buying Opteron-based servers. Thus the pressure Dell put on Intel to come out with x86-64, which they surely knew Intel was holding in their back pocket. I imagine an ultimatum to release a 64-bit Xeon or Dell would start selling Opterons is what did it.
People understimate the pressure Dell can apply to Intel. Sure, Dell really needs Intel and definitely benefits from preferential pricing, and thus wants to make Intel happy. On the other hand, Intel needs the world's largest OEM to be pure-Intel, creating a marketshare buffer zone (and commensurate dependable income) to help in their battle with AMD, and thus must keep Dell happy too. A Dell defection would be very bad for Intel, and issues like 64-bit x86 could have forced Dell's hand.
64bit Extensions (Score:2)
Re:LOL (Score:2)
Re:WTF? (Score:2)
Intel didn't reverse engineer anything. AMD and Intel have a cross-licensing agreement in place. Intel simply implemented AMDs spec.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Informative)
So either they want a fight, or they want to save face.
But you are 100% correct: anything Intel invent's AMD can use, and vice versa. They only caveat is that they are not required to supply implementation details, just patented methods.
Very strange bedfellows.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Funny)
That's a common misconception. Al Gore is actually the inventor of the Algorithm. The Internet was invented by AOL.
Re:Did anybody even RTF Article? (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed, and just because the dog drags the owner about by the leash a bit doesn't mean he's not still the dog.
One good tug on the choke chain'll bring 'im up short.
KFG
64-bit extensions??? (Score:3, Informative)
Dell also had nothing to do with IA64, considering Intel's primary partner for that was Dell's competitor HP.
Re:64-bit extensions??? (Score:4, Informative)
Dell Strategist: "This AMD 64 bit thing is really being marketed well, and demand for 64 bits is increasing. You'd better have 64 bit soon or we'll be forced to start selling AMD machines."
Intel Strategist: "Yikes, ok, ok, we'll get R&D on ripping off*cough* working on a similar solution"
Re:64-bit extensions??? (Score:2)
Re:64-bit extensions??? (Score:2)
802.11b???? (Score:5, Informative)
In fact, the ibooks were delayed because they had yet to pass FCC testing when they were announced at MacWorld.
Re:802.11b???? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:802.11b???? (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing to remember about USB et al (and what the grandparent was trying to say) is not that Apple created it, or was the first to implement or so on, but that they were the major driving force behind its adoption.
I can't really see the connection with gigabit ethernet and 802.11g -- Apple was among the first (possibly the first, I'm not really sure) to implement these features as standard, but these technologies weren't being given short shrift by others in any way. In that case, perhaps Apple can claim to be the first (or near-first) company to standardise on these new technologies across their entire range, but that's not really a big deal when everyone else was already doing the same.
USB however, I remember. I remember it because it was in 1998/1999 when I was starting out in computer programming. Printers were still almost all using parallel ports. The PalmPilot was using 9-pin serial. Mice were using either 9-pin serial or PS/2. A lot of keyboards were still using the old 'keyboard port' (was this called PS/1? I never heard it described as anything other than the 'keyboard port'). I honestly don't remember what external CD drives were using, although I can remember that my first Zip drive used a parallel port, and I'm pretty darned sure I bought that in 1999.
When the iMac came out, it standardized on USB. Everything was using USB. No ADB ports, no serial, no parallel, no SCSI. Not even FireWire. Just the USB ports. They had a hub in the keyboard, and they were making monitors that contained hubs too (although those might have arrived later in 1999, I'm not sure). It was USB or nothing.
At the time, lots of folks were predicting that this would fail because -- and this bit is important, so pay attention please -- hardly any peripherals used USB. They were all parallel, serial, or SCSI. Or in the case of mice & keyboards, they used PS/2 or ADB. And yet look what happened: Lots of fruit-colored peripherals appeared, all using USB. The iMac was cute enough to garner attention, and the device manufacturers wanted part of that market. So they started making USB stuff en masse. By the end of 2000 it was getting hard to buy a printer that had a parallel port, and they all had USB ports. FOlks point out that USB was a wintel thing, and Windows had it since 1996 or 1997. But it wasn't until Apple made it the only option that everything started using it. Not much point doing otherwise, given that their current ports were still supported otherwise -- why make the effort?
As to firewire -- well, I always saw that as analogous to SCSI, as it was designed for bulk transfer of data to and from large storage devices. USB was a peripheral interconnect, for mice, cameras, keyboards, printers, and so on. Geared mostly towards burst transmission in relatively small bursts. They had different uses. But again, as far as I can recall (and I may be wrong) Apple was using USB along with and possibly even before it did FireWire. Certainly the iMacs had USB before they had FireWire.
-Q
(-1, Offtopic; damn, there goes my karma)
Re:802.11b???? (Score:3, Informative)
The connector you are talking about is called a DIN-connector, where DIN means "Deutsche IndustrieNorm" (German industry standard):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_connector [wikipedia.org]
It was also used for MIDI, tape recorders and lots more.
Re:802.11b???? (Score:5, Interesting)
Unfortunately, unlike other Apple efforts, this one gets little to no recognition today. (Parent's parent post excluded of course).
Re:802.11b???? (Score:2)
This Just In (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This Just In (Score:2)
Re:This Just In (Score:5, Interesting)
Why [apple.com] would Dell making noise about this now? [nasdaq.com]
You'd think their competitor had just announced something that Dell suddenly [nasdaq.com] perceived as a threat...
OK... (Score:2)
Re:OK... (Score:2)
Awwww. (Score:5, Funny)
-Grey [wellingtongrey.net]
So sad. (Score:5, Insightful)
64-Bit (Score:5, Funny)
Why So Defensive? (Score:5, Interesting)
Sure, they don't really do R&D. But they don't need to - they have Intel, Microsoft, Lexmark, and the rest of the OEM partners to do that. They are a gateway to the market, not a market-maker. That's their niche. It's a really big one, and they do it really well. After all, they do make billions a year. And unlike Microsoft, they do it without being a monopoly.
Re:Why So Defensive? (Score:3, Interesting)
Dell doesn't really need to be defensive. They do one thing, and they do it really well: Dell builds cheap computers. There's a lot of value there, the quality of their product and support notwithstanding.
Quality of their products? I've always found it to be good - sure, ECS motherboards may be one of their OEM suppliers, but they demand better quality control than ECS' own generic boards.
A big test of the quality of any PC is opening the power supply. In Dells, Compaqs (haven't opened one since the HP m
We are not evil! (Score:2)
unlike Microsoft, they do it without being a monopoly.
My state has a sole source contract with Dell. For them, it's a monopoly and it sucks. Your state may have a similar contract. They swore it would save money, choke, gag.
It'
Re:Why So Defensive? (Score:3, Interesting)
Those that contributed to making cheap computer with the power for the future are the likes of gigabyte, abit, asus, etc. Dell makes systems that are purchased for less but costs much more in the long run. Even their high end computers are not
Hah! (Score:5, Insightful)
The ironic part is that Dell has always been very up-front about the fact that they do no research, pioneer no technologies, and create nothing new. Dell is all about execution, not creation: they manufacture devices based upon the technologies of others, deliver them to consumers, and do it with very low overhead.
Which is a perfectly fine thing for them to do. It's not heroic work, but neither is being a plumber, and we still like to have them around.
But I have to admit that my respect for any plumber would go down if he started trying to convince me that he's the one that actually discovered the Bernoulli Principle.
Dell not a real computer company. (Score:3, Insightful)
They take off the shelf parts and put them into a case. Nothing wrong with that but they really don't make computers they assemble them.
Re:Hah! (Score:2)
yea sure (Score:2)
Re:yea sure (Score:2)
oh wrinklepaws! (Score:2)
The whole article is very silly; who cares about Dell's market clout -- it seems to be like Apple made a much bigger impact on the tech sector during its dark days -- releasing USB on the legacy-free iMac, a popular 802.11 implementation with non fixed length passwords (LEAP I believe?) .. oh... and uh... the iPod!
Dell's losing it... (Score:2, Offtopic)
Re:Dell's losing it... (Score:3, Funny)
I Once Read (Score:2)
But overall, Dell tends to follow Intel's lead and isn't setting the agenda, said Gartner analyst Steve Kleynhans. "They tend to get involved at the point where technology is getting standardized, and they popularize it. They get it out to a lot of people," he said. "But I don't see
So that means I can order what I need, right? (Score:2)
I can order that Debian GNU/Linux-preinstalled Dell desktop when?
Re:So that means I can order what I need, right? (Score:2, Insightful)
More like Intel is Dell's puppet. (Score:5, Insightful)
The article went on to say... (Score:4, Funny)
The article went on to say Dell deserves credit for developing the Internet, two-button mouse, and sliced bread.
Who cares about Dell (Score:2, Insightful)
Anybody rtfa? (Score:4, Informative)
So what they're really claiming... (Score:2)
If they wanted 802.11 and 64 bit extensions and PCI Express support, but chose to push Intel for those technologies, I suppose that supports their premise - they're not a lapdog, they're a dog that pulls on the leash.
Thank God for Instant Replay (Score:5, Funny)
"Well, Bob, we're seeing the same footage as the refs down on the field, and they seem to be simply making sure they all have the same opinion. Caution is good. Our view was blocked from up here, but on the tape, you can clearly see that Dell never had control of the ball, and there doesn't seem to be anyt...wait... - there's the ruling! No innovation by Dell! The refs are in complete agreement too - back to you Bob!"
Risk aversion (Score:5, Insightful)
DDR (Dell) vs RAMBUS (Intel)
Itanium (Intel) vs x64 (Dell)
Sounds to me like Dell always follows Intel, unless Intel's choice is too risky. The last item is an excelent example. Itanium is risky so Dell wanted nothing of that. On the other hand, using non-Intel processors is risky so Dell just waited until Intel brought out 64bit x86 processors.
Dell isn't Intel's puppet. Dell is simply run by cowards and, most of the time, Wintel is the safest choice. Dell will follow wherever Intel leads, unless it's out on a limb.
They're NOT claiming to have invented the tech. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Ok then.... (Score:2)
Fair enough, then how come I cannot get a dual opteron with ultra320 SCSI and a linux disrto of my choice?
Ok, it's easy to be cynical about this... (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's have a look at PCI Express. Early in 2004 it had competition from PCI-X - PCI extended - however, Dell here [dell.com] are discussing the implications of swapping from PCI to PCIe. Now, at the time, PCI-X was seen as an interim measure, but Dell skipped it, instead opting to use PCIe across their desktop range. See, they didn't 'invent' it, but a big company like Dell deciding to run with a specific technology is going to have an impact. No doubt we'll probably see the same with ExpressCard, which seems to be standard on pretty much all Dell laptops released since Fall last year - point me in the direction of another manufacturer who's committed to ExpressCard and not still releasing PC card stuff - HP? Lenovo? Fujitsu? Toshiba?
Right, 64-bit extensions. Again, they didn't invent it, but I know that they had an instrumental role in convincing Intel (who needs 64-bit computing?) to add EMT 64 extensions to the Xeon range. That might have been partly forced by Dell's customers asking for 64-bit availability, but you cannot deny that with a big player like Dell dumping out 64-bit Xeons, it did give the market a huge kick up the arse - and one that I'm pretty convinced Intel wouldn't have done on their own. Remember, they stubbornly sat on their hands for ages insisting point blank that 64-bit was not the way to go and that if you wanted it, you had to buy Itaniums (*shudder*).
Wireless? The only evidence I can find that supports this is that Dell were the first company to offer an 802.11b wireless card in a desktop config. I don't for once think that drove any kind of market force as it was an option on the Dimension desktop line, but his points in the article that they stopped Intel marketing that awful HomeRF standard might be justified.
So it's not really 100% bullshit - the guy has some valid points. Yes Dell has helped promote a couple of standards over the years - USB 2 first appeared on Dells, Centrino laptops first appeared as Dells, they were second (behind Apple) to ship LCDs as standard with PCs. However, they've also bombed in other areas: they still don't have a coherent Mediacenter PC and seem to offer the OS on anything you'd want, and they don't have a tablet option. Now if they could pull their finger out and try to push those down people's throats, we might be getting somewhere.
So, before you're moronic enough to read bullshit into what he said, sit back and have a think about how a company's size can dictate whether technologies succeed or not, then think about what didn't succeed but could've, like Itanium, HomeRF and PCI-X...
Re:Ok, it's easy to be cynical about this... (Score:4, Informative)
Apple. [apple.com]
I hear they run Windows pretty fast, and come with some other software you can try.
The power of DELL is simple. (Score:4, Insightful)
Also for popularizing pci-express, if DELL says they are phasing out AGP in favour of pci-express in certain time scale, the gfx-card manufacturers are going to listen very carefully, as the chipset vendors too, since they know that if they don't have product that dell wants to buy the other guys will. And by dell making such decision practicly guarantees a reasonable market to go full production of the new interface.
As far as Blue Ray Disc Vs HD-DVD, if Dell chooces BD, then they will wait until they can get BD in pricepoints that fit the Dell model, and skip the HD-DVD unless the situation becomes such that it's no-brainer to include instead of DVD, and BD would still be too expensive.
But with Dell committed on one side, that side has big edge on PC:s once the prices come down, if there is competition between formats going on anymore, but don't assume dell stays that way if HD-DVD drive costs 20$ while BD costs 300$ . Dell is still volume manufacturer, but BD will be what they prefer if price difference is reasonable, and that whats will be in many peoples machines when the drive isn't too expensive for dell to put as default option in many of their lines.
This just in from Kettler: (Score:2)
In related news... (Score:2)
Is it me or... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Nowadays? (Score:4, Interesting)
It isn't that I so much object to the *actual* political stories that effect technology, but rather these "geek club politics" kind of stories. They always seem to boil down to some variant of:
Dell is stupid.
Microsoft is evil.
As is Sony.
But Google isn't.
Open source will save the world.
DRM will destroy the world.
Standards are the world.
Apple invented the world.
This season's fashion report on what all the best coders are using.
It seems like a lot of these stories aren't really even news stories at all, but just another excuse to forward one of the above arguments. There is plenty going on in the world that could excite some really interesting discussion that geeks might be interested in aside from these rather well beaten paths. I don't really think there is much of value left to say on any of these subjects, since they all get weekly coverage, if not daily coverage. You might think it is interesting to have the same conversation about different aspects of the same subjects over and over and over again, but I find it pretty boring.
Re:In other words (Score:2)
Re:In other words (Score:2)
The guy is obviously lying, and I cant see why. If I want a dell it's only because they are intel's lapdog, and therefor a cheap option.
Re:In other words (Score:2)
Dell didn't invent, but did coerce Intel a bit. (Score:2)
Now if Dell ships computers with ONLY PCI Express slots, forcing add-in board makers to move their legacy PCI boards (TV tuners, WiFi cards, etc,) to PCI Express, THEN Dell can claim some leadership. (As Apple did with USB.)
802.11? That's a joke, right? Apple pushed that one, and Dell was late to th
Re:Never seen... (Score:4, Informative)
You didn't look very hard. My Precision 470 came with XP64:
Important: Not all current applications and/or peripherals are compatible with 64-bit and may not function properly. Be sure to verify compatibility with all application and peripheral vendors prior to purchasing a Dell Precision platform with a 64-bit operating system.
Genuine Windows® XP Professional SP2 with media
Genuine Windows® XP Professional SP2 without media
Genuine Windows® XP Professional x64 w/ media
Genuine Windows® XP Professional x64 w/o media
Red Hat Linux v4.0 No Media
Red Hat Linux v4.0 with Media
Red Hat Linux v4.0 64bit No Media
Red Hat Linux v4.0 64bit with Media
Re:Never seen... (Score:2)
Re:Never seen... (Score:2)
Re:Never seen... (Score:2)
Re:Big Whoop (Score:3, Interesting)
It's a lame argument, bu
Why these Dell protests are good (Score:3, Informative)