Classroom Bullies On The Internet 599
peter303 writes "Oldtimers are familiar with sociopaths in usenet newsgroups and chat rooms. The NY Times has an article about grade school kids who bully on the Internet. These include message bombing and slanderous web pages. The web allows one to extend bad manners from real life."
Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Funny)
Haven't seen it yet, but will probably at some point, the following bumpersticker phrase:
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Funny)
So is this the reason why people seem to be so much more rude on the Internet? Is it geeks getting out their pent-up aggression from being picked on all the time in the real world? Is it people taking their anger at that asshole who cut them off on the way to work out on the faceless masses on the Internet?
Besides, if you believe that size doesn't matter on the Internet, you clearly haven't been getting the same kind of email I've been getting.
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it's mostly that people don't have to deal with real-world consequences. You can say things in text to people that would get your face beaten in if you said them in person.
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:4, Funny)
"If I ever meet you, I'll CTRL+ALT+DELETE you!"
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Funny)
MINNEAPOLIS, MN--Capella University, one of the nation's most heavily trafficked institutions of online learning, issued a stern disciplinary e-mail message to the members of the disorderly Alpha Sigma Sigma online fraternity Monday. "Alpha Sigma Sigma has not only broken the rules included in each distance learner's Online Application User Agreement, but they have also continually thwarted our efforts to create a serious online-learning community and an inclusive e-campus," Capella Dean of Students Theodore Albertson said. "This rowdy fraternity has been a thorn in the school's side for years, and frankly, we've had enough."
Real world should have consequences too (Score:5, Interesting)
> with real-world consequences. You can say things
> in text to people that would get your face beaten
> in if you said them in person.
We can learn from this. If you could beat up rude people in real life, there would be a lot fewer of them. Sleazy newspaper reporters, lying used car salesmen, and dishonest politicians will disappear practically overnight if one were to abolish the first amendment for everybody. These days the first amendment is abolished only for honest people who are not allowed to talk about dangerous subjects at work [yahoo.com] or protest peacefully on the grass in New York [yahoo.com]
Re:Real world should have consequences too (Score:5, Funny)
Is there another kind?
Re:Real world should have consequences too (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Real world should have consequences too (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Real world should have consequences too (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Real world should have consequences too (Score:4, Insightful)
Ok. And you pay for your own damned convention, instead of passing the bill for police and civil infrastructure off to the taxpayers. While you're at it, pay for and serve in your own damned wars.
Laissez faire in name only, eh?
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Interesting)
I was prohibited to enter the lab for the rest of the term, but he was kicked out of school.
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Interesting)
I was prohibited to enter the lab for the rest of the term, but he was kicked out of school.
Basically, the kid doing the hacking got no punshment but the violence (you) was dealt with harshly.
I see the same exact thing with my kids in school. My kids get picked on (as do many other kids). Some examples.. some kids forcably took my sons MP3 player from him and would not give it back, eventually they did but the headphones were broke. They took his shoe and pulled the laces out, stuck gum in his hair etc... For a 12 year old, that type of abuse is hard to handle. He refused to get up in the morning, did not want to go to school, claimed he was sick etc.. After numerous attempts of my trying to deal with the situation in a logical and mature manner by dealing with the guidance office abd principal, absolutely nothing had changed. Finally at a conference with the prinicipal and my son, I told my son to get out of his seat from the bus, calmly walk up to the offender and punch the SOB right in the face as hard as he could and if the kid got up, do it again in the stomache or in the nuts by any means possible. I had to resort to barbaric fighting to solve my sons emotional stress. The principal bluntly stated that he was going to put that in his record that I stated that and if anything like that happened, my son would be immediately expelled and charged. Funny how the school can allow and do nothing about any amount of mental abuse but physical abuse is dealt with immediately. I do not really know how they can deal with mental abuse issues but neither did they. After attempting to resolve the situation I finally provided my own a method that I know would work. The confidence he gained from that talk and further talks about the subject allowed him to stand up to the groups of kids without actually having to "fight" it out.
I'm sure many here will never agree to fighting and honestly I do not either but I can tell you the mental abuse a picked on child and their parents have to deal with is 1000x worse then a bully with a bloody nose. It is far better to snap early and use fists then to wait and bottle up the pain until they do something far worse. Too bad the school system does not think that way and could not provide any guidance.
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Insightful)
People are able to compartmentalize and adapt their behavior to differing situations. Business is business, fun is fun, driving is insanity on wheels.
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Interesting)
it's happened more than once that someone I recognize cuts me off or drives rudely around me - then they recognize me and their face changes.
Might I direct your attention to the greater Internet Fuckwad theory [penny-arcade.com]?
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:4, Interesting)
Despite all the race/sex problems in America we really do have a cultural expectation of equality. When we come to a 4-way stop, Americans across the country expects to get their turn regardless of race or sex. My two cents, anyway.
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:3, Funny)
Gee, fucktard, ya think so?
(Hmmm, I did check the Post Anonymously box, right?)
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:4, Interesting)
This reminds me of my early mudding days, you eventually learned there was safety in numbers and banded with other players. I was pkilled and a friend was also harrassed by the same player, but because I told him about the meanie, he was prepared.
My nephew, years later, who was a blue belt in Tae Kwon Do and a reasonably bright lad, met with similar disappointments in Ultima Online. Nothing kills player enthusiasm for a game like pkillers who prey on newbies.
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Insightful)
I was going to make the joke about only a moron would ask such a stupid question, but I see people beat me to it.
However, there are a couple reasons why people can be rude on the internet. One is, as others have emtnioned, the anonymity. If you piss people off, you can just go somewhere else. And you can have fun annoying strangers.
That mainly applies to trolls. But another reaosn why flame wars erupts so easilly is that people are usually at a website or a chat room because of the topic more than the people. Therefore, people are generally interested in information and that mutual interest in technology, or whatever, is the reason they are on the same site, rather than friendship.
Finally, there is also the fact that a lot of people have poor communication skills and don't put their message across as well and because text is much more limited than face to face communication, subtlties are often lost.
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe or maybe not. There are already bumper stickers that say "My kid beat up your honors student," or "As a matter of fact I DO own the whole damn road," or the ever-popular "Eat my shorts."
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally, I see two phenomena at work:
One is that the Internet, with its lack of visual feedback, magnifies badness. It's very easy to be perceived as rude when it's just words, without gestures and facial expressions behind them.
The other is the level of cluelessness that pervades so many forums, and the frustration that arises from such cluelessness. One that came to my attention today was this one [justfuckinggoogleit.com]. Is this bullying? I
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Funny)
I see you've read Slashdot's mission statement.
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:3, Funny)
> aggression from being picked on all the time in the real world? Is it people taking their anger at that asshole who
> cut them off on the way to work out on the faceless masses on the Internet?
All of these phenomena are explained by the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory:
http://penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2004-03-19 [penny-arcade.com]
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Insightful)
I am going to have to disagree here. I believe its more along the lines of behaving like the jerks they are inside instead of the nice geeks they are outside. I think peoples attitudes on the internet are the way they really are, and they restrain theirselves in the real world.
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Insightful)
Folks that have an internet connection but wouldn't know a modem from a monitor are usually the ones that get caught in the "hey, it's just the Internet, who cares if I'm an asshole" trap.
Most geeks, even those that "bully" online tend to realize it is a real person on the other end of the line, and the Internet is not some magical fairy land made by magic pixies that don't exist in the real world. The luddites are the ones that are being described in this story, and who I see when I do get bored enough to sit in a "mainstream" chat room.
Better Than The Old Days (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes. If "Internet bullying" (sic) is all a child has to worrry about these days, well, frankly, good.
Physical bullying is hard to ignore; namecalling can be much easier. With the internet and blocking software, it's even easier.
And besides, over the internet, there's often more time and personal safety to compose that perfect, literate, well-crafted retort. Rather than trying to croak out something smug-sounding while crawling miserably out of a garbage bin.
I *so* don't miss high school.
--
AC
Re:Better Than The Old Days (Score:5, Insightful)
Physical bullying is hard to ignore; namecalling can be much easier. With the internet and blocking software, it's even easier.
It's more than that. Take the joy of being harassed at school and add to it the fact that you can't even be left alone in the safety of your own house.
Stick a little fear on top of that - you could compose that perfect, literate, well-crafted retort, but you could also be picking your teeth out of the back of your head by three o'clock the next day should you try it.
Harassment online isn't "all" a kid on the wrong end of it has to worry about. It doesn't exist in a vacuum, and it wouldn't be happening if there wasn't someone else physically Out There with something out for his target. Especially if you don't have total control over blocking or tracking things, it's one more refuge snipped out from under the victim - one they can fight back in a lot more easily, it's true, but not without risking the same sort of stuff as though they'd mouthed off to someone twice their size in person.
-PS
Re:Better Than The Old Days (Score:4, Insightful)
I *so* don't miss high school.
Things really don't change much as an adult. Now bullies don't beat you up, they just try to get you fired, fire you on false pretexts, talk behind you back and try to get people to turn on you, etc. All the nonsense that went on in high school still does in the adult world, it just takes on a more adult form. More subtle, but the stakes are higher.
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Different From The Old Days (Score:5, Insightful)
Future Flash: The same kid continues to be harassed relentlessly by others because their parents teach them that being better than everyone else is the most important thing. Then, when he guns down the assholes who were making his life hell, the school says they never saw it coming and magically, these total fucking assholes who continually pushed and pushed become heroes for getting shot at "for no reason."
Old story (Score:5, Insightful)
Common sense applies to AIM too! (Score:5, Insightful)
But a growing number of teenagers are learning the hard way that words sent into cyberspace can have more severe consequences than a telephone conversation or a whispered confidence. As ephemeral as they seem, instant messages (better known as I.M.'s) form a written record often wielded as a potent weapon for adolescent betrayal and torment.
NOTHING is worse than the fucking "telephone game". Story starts innocuous enough about Timmy getting reprimanded by the Gym teacher and ends up into some outlandish bullshit about Timmy getting his cock sucked by the male Gym teacher for missing a basket during an important shot in a worthless game during class.
Yeah I suppose the written record could be changed to make people more and more guilty looking but it's most likely getting circulated in tact (I know how stuff is copy/pasted between AIM windows). If the girl said some racial epitaph and it got spread over AIM and her school suggested she leave so be it. She probably lucked out better than if it had been said verbally and stretched...
Kids should be taught the same things we preach... Do not allow anyone to contact you on AIM unless they are on your buddy list or at the very least have it prompt you if you don't have them on your list. At least they can't won't get to fill up your SMS inbox with messages about your stupid behavior.
Have some common sense and don't post pictures of yourself masturbating, don't send messages about how you think of someone else, and don't allow yourself to be video taped by other kids doing sexual things with others.
Re:Common sense applies to AIM too! (Score:4, Insightful)
You know, the internet has been around for awhile now and it's only in the last four to six years that people have become increasingly stupid and juvenile. The problem is not the medium. The problem is the peopel using it. They'd cause trouble and be whiny thin-skinned twits no matter what the medium was. If not the internet, it would be elsewhere. When I was in school, there were only BBSes and a few years later, the internet sort of started becoming a bigger deal as dial-up sprang up here and there.
It's sad to see how pathetic the state of affairs is today. And the problem is not the internet, but the children and parents who treat it like it's a fucking McDonald's Playland. It reminds me of that terrible Comcast commercial I've seen a few times where an internet instructor named "Professor Web" is telling students to "stomp around the internet with reckless abondon"... AS IF IT'S A GOOD THING.
I've been around since ARPANet days (Score:5, Insightful)
Just less numerous and more technically apt.
Re:Common sense applies to AIM too! (Score:5, Insightful)
People are NOT getting stupider!
You know, the internet has been around for awhile now and it's only in the last four to six years that people have become increasingly stupid and juvenile.
Did it ever occur to you that the internet, anonymity of postings, etc. brings out peoples truer nature? I wish I could point to one of the studies on this, but conclusions are that people communicate much more than they used to (notice all the people jawing on cellphones while they drive, which they couldn't do a couple decades ago without a fat wad of cash, IIRC cell phones were invented in 1948, but few could afford this luxury) the more they communicate the more deeper they dig into their thoughts, reveal more of their character. Typing is more congnitive process than speech, as you can backspace over and otherwise edit your thoughts to make a point more clearly. Beyond the words there's the behaviour, how often do you communicate, to what do you respond, how do you respond, etc.
In short, people aren't more stupid, they're simply revealing the stupidity that's always been there.
Re:Common sense applies to AIM too! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Common sense applies to AIM too! (Score:4, Insightful)
You didn't just pick up an AOL CD at Wal-Mart and plop it into your e-Machine and get an account, you configured your PPP (or SLIP!) account on your machine by editing some config files and running dip on your linux box (kernel version 0.96b patch level 4!).
So I would argue that since using the 'net is so much easier than it once was, that you probably do run into lot more 'stupid' (read technically inept) people than you once did. Whether this is completely a bad thing, I am not qualified to answer (even though I find myself longing for 'the good old days' occasionally, as well). 'Stupid' people far outnumber the rest of us and the 'net wouldn't be nearly as much a part of society without them.
We'd probably not have any kind of 'cheap' home broadband without them. Hell, perhaps we should raise a glass to the 'stupid' people and say, "Thanks for funding the technology that we love and will use to its fullest potential."
Re:Common sense applies to AIM too! (Score:3, Funny)
If the girl said some racial epitaph and it got spread over AIM and her school suggested she leave so be it.
I had no idea that AIM is heaving with cadavers...
Idioticy of today's youth. (Score:5, Funny)
I, as a mature and responsible member of society, am shocked that they were doing this
Do you know how much money they could have gotten if they that set up a pay-site and charged $19.99 per month (first 7 days free)?!?!?!
I fear for our future.
Re:Common sense applies to AIM too! (Score:5, Insightful)
This should be obvious, but a technical communications professor I once had always said that when you're sending (even private) electronic communications, assume everybody in the world is going to see/read it, ESPECIALLY people you wouldn't want to.
Re:Common sense applies to AIM too! (Score:5, Funny)
Good job! You just figured out the solution to 97% of all teenagers' problems! Now that the theoretical framework is laid out, implementation should be a snap!
Re:Common sense applies to AIM too! (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that kids don't have the same amount of life experience. Sure, it stands to reason to most of us here that it would be a bad idea to take a picture of your boner with a camera phone and send it to a couple of girls that you know. I did a lot of dumb shit when I was 14. I wasn't dumb enough to send naked pictures of myself to anyone, but people still laugh at a couple of the idiotic things that I did 15 years ago.
This life experience causes me to be even more careful about the dumb shit that I consider doing today.
LK
Re:Common sense applies to AIM too! (Score:3, Funny)
TIMMY!
TIMMY!
TIMMMMY!
Cartman: Shut up, ya retard!
RS
Parry Aftab and Katie *ARE* BULLIES. (Score:5, Insightful)
I assume the Slashdot crowd doesn't need to be reminded that this is the same "Parry Aftab" and WiredSaftey.org program as pushed by the trampy little "Katie" of "Katie.com" domain theft fame from a couple weeks ago. The same girl that was stupid enough to get herself involved with a 40 year old man alone in his hotel room and then tried to extort an innocent woman out of her legitimately held domain name all under the guise of "I'm a stupid twit and made a bad choice when I was a teenager and now I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to milk it for every dime I possibly can".
Parry Aftab, Katie and the whole lot are a bunch of fucking twits. They see problems where none exist and blame everyone else in the world for their own personal failures of choice and behavior. God I can't fucking STAND these idiots and I can't believe Slashdot is now "promoting" news for the same twat that we were flaming the hell out of a short time ago.
But it did not end there. As soon as Amanda got home, the instant messages started popping up on her computer screen. She was a tattletale and a liar, they said. Shaken, she typed back, "You stole my stuff!" She was a "stuck-up bitch," came the instant response in the box on the screen, followed by a series of increasingly ugly epithets.
Oh, boo fucking hoo. Don't give people you don't like your instant messaging name, then. Or rather than engaging in petty arguing, sign off. Or block them. What does it take to warn or block someone on AIM? Two or three button clicks? For fuck's sake, it's a few mean words on a computer - it's not like these "bullies" are shoving broomhandles up their "victims" asses.
It's one thing for kids to be whiney little thin-skinned shits, but it's another for the lawyer - Parry Aftab, Wired and that Katie bitch to make big bank going around promoting these social rejects. These retards that can't back down from confrontation by doing the obvious - like blocking people in AIM or simply grow up and deal with the fact that not everyone is going to like you and sometimes your feelings will be hurt.
This story just makes me want to puke, as do those who are clearly exploiting the "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" angle of it. Also - just because you're a porky fuck who almost got herself raped in a hotel by a man three times her age (where the fuck were your parents?!) doesn't make you an "expert". That's like saying that junkies are experts on drugs. Just because you inject a bunch of drugs into your veins doesn't make you an expert about them anymore than driving a car makes me a mechanic - and in the same way, being a stupid twat that makes herself a perfect "victim" doesn't make you any more an expert on these things.
For instance, last spring, when an eighth-grade girl at Horace Mann School in the Riverdale section of the Bronx, sent a digital video of herself masturbating to a male classmate on whom she had a crush, it quickly appeared on a file-sharing network that teenagers use to trade music. Hundreds of New York private school students saw the video, in which the girl's face was clearly visible, and it was available to a worldwide audience of millions.
What the fuck? If a thirteen year old kid is stupid enough to videotape herself masturbating and send it to a classmate, she DESERVES for it to be spread around the school and to be humiliated for it. Sometimes there is a price to pay for being a fucking moron. And the persons with the social and mental problems aren't the people who harass or humiliate her for it - it's the girl who has such a fucking warped brain that she thinks passing around videos of herself with her fingers or a dildo in her pre-pubescent snatch is the way to win over a boyfriend. That kid needs to be sent to a fucking boarding school and undergo major psychotherapy.
This whole fucking article is one tale after another of stupid kids doing stupid things and then running to mommy and getting sympathetic attention when it comes time to pay for their stupid actions. God forbid people learn from mistakes by paying for them.
Re:Parry Aftab and Katie *ARE* BULLIES. (Score:3, Insightful)
Bullying by lawyers is no more pleasant than bullying by schoolchildren.
Re:Parry Aftab and Katie... [compassion anyone]? (Score:4, Insightful)
As adults I think we tend to get so jaded and so quick to judge. Kids at that age aren't as thick skinned as adults, teasing, name calling, gossiping is very painful at adolescene. Go ahead and saw "awwwww..." all you want, I'd rather show a little kindness that turn the kid in a angry, repressed, beaten down sociopath.
"she DESERVES for it to be spread around the school and to be humiliated for it.... stupid kids doing stupid things and then running to mommy and getting sympathetic attention when it comes time to pay for their stupid actions"
I'm REALLY glad you weren't my parent, and I hope you aren't anyone's parent. I made some mistakes as a kid - but you know what my parents did - made damn sure I learned from it while ALSO being supportive and understanding, like a good parent should; not berating me and ranting b/c they were pissed off, unsympathetic, cynical adults.
Re:Parry Aftab and Katie... [compassion anyone]? (Score:4, Insightful)
Hey, how about showing a little compassion to the boy who received the video? What would YOU have done at 14 if some girl sent you a video of herself masturbating? You probably would have shown it to your friends too. HE made a dumb mistake, just like SHE did. You can't just show compassion for one side.
See, I am all for showing compassion. One of the best books I have ever read is "The Art of Happiness" by the Dalai Lama. Now there is someone who practices what he preaches.
How about showing some compassion to this girl by NOT teaching her to sue when she is wronged. How about teaching HER about compassion. How about teaching the boy about compassion. I am not involved in this stupid fiasco, so my having a compassionate opinion isn't going to do shit.
You have to be held accountable for your own actions. This girl freely distributed a video of herself - hey, that's life. I am not going to blame her parents, because kids will do dumb things. But her parents should step up and refuse to sue other people for something her kid did on her own. Learn from it, move on.
Re:Parry Aftab and Katie *ARE* BULLIES. (Score:3, Interesting)
Thus, we are raising children who stay indoors to watch TV and play video games so they don't get hurt.
Reasonability and Copyrights (Score:5, Insightful)
Not applicable to the situation at hand. She passed the video to the boy herself, which established a desire to distribute. Having your diary stolen doesn't establish this desire.
> The girl's legal rights were violated: specifically, her copyright to her video. Regardless of what he thought of the contents, it was illegal for her "boyfriend" to publish her work without her consent.
Incorrect. If she didn't apply for a copyright, or at the very least include some notice not to distribute in the video or otherwise, she didn't establish any reasonable desire to copyright, so enforcing it would be problematic at best. More importantly, copyright violation is a civil tort, so she would have to demonstrate monetary loss due to his distribution, like for example if she was charging for distribution and he gave it away. No such monetary loss occurred, so there's no case for copyright infringement.
More to the point, however, is her recourse. If she truly wanted to make him pay for doing what he did, she could have reported him to the local police. A video of a 13-year-old girl masturbating is child pornography anywhere in the U.S., and by putting the video up on a P2P network, he's guilty of distribution, which is a felony offense. While he was sitting in reform school for five years, he'd have time to reflect on how "not nice" his action was. Also, any classmate who taunted her with comments about seeing the video would be subject to arrest for posession, so the story would die quickly.
Virg
Re:Reasonability and Copyrights (Score:4, Insightful)
Getting the police involved would be a seriously bad idea on her part.
K
Her day will come ... (Score:5, Funny)
Scene - a high school girl complaining to her guidance counselor...
Re:Her day will come ... (Score:3, Insightful)
* Student: I was online last night, and somebody said I was fat.
* Counselor:I see.
* Student:And they wanted to know why I wear the same pair of jeans eve ry day.
* Counselor:How cruel.
* Student:And how I have Wal-Mart clothes.
* Counselor:Well, in that case, I reccomend you study computers. That way when you graduate, you can go online, and it won't matter if you're fat and wear the same Wal-Mart jeans every day
So that's it... (Score:5, Funny)
Remember kids: Violence isn't the answer, but a good command of Tae Kwon Do sure lets you keep your stuff.
Heh (Score:5, Informative)
In Japan a girl slit the throat of another girl over insulting comments made over the internet. [bbc.co.uk]
It's just a Medium, why expect anything else? (Score:4, Insightful)
Bullies bully in real life. Bullies are going to bully on the internet.
Sad Part of Studies Like These (Score:4, Insightful)
Bullies are a part of society and are everywhere - even to the point of Bully Countries (someday: Bully Planets).
Take the power away. Write a reverse contactor to send bullyx a magnitude reply (you send 1, I send 10). Better yet, trap the messages and post them on a website to show the pure idiocy of the bully.
bah (Score:5, Funny)
Want proof? (Score:5, Insightful)
Gateway activity? (Score:5, Funny)
Hmm (Score:5, Interesting)
Find the offending username/ip.
Move them off of whatever IM client they're using now.
Put them on something a bit more intelligent, my weapon of choice would be centericq [konst.org.ua], but anything that will allow you to do some scripting will work.
Set up an auto-reply to that user. Auto-block that user. Heck, grab the IP address, nmap, and script-kiddie a shutdown of that IP. Doesn't matter, but you ARE empowered as a parent to stop this sort of thing.
Granted, not all parents are as geeky as we are. There should be a basic 'block username' and 'block from IP address' function in an IM client, no?
Got a Better Answer (Score:5, Interesting)
Virg
Any sort of bully (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Any sort of bully (Score:4, Interesting)
Back in the old days, bullying had to be one on one, or the by the people the bully talked to. With text messaging and the Internet, you have broadcast and publishing capabilities in the hands of the bully. In the "real world", that's when things like libel laws come into play.
While I'm not in favor of bringing lawyers into grade schools, this kind of difference has to be considered. As a parallel, consider how much damage a disaffected teen can do alone, vs. how much a disaffected scriptkiddy can do.
I used to teach at Horace Mann (Score:4, Informative)
What the hell were they thinking? (Score:3, Insightful)
Excellent (Score:4, Informative)
I was taunted brutally as a kid, and I consider it a blessing. I am a much better man because of it.
Re:Excellent (Score:5, Informative)
> societal norms, and begin to think for themselves.
First, this phenomenon is not unique to the "American ethos" (talk about a moving conceptual target). Second, there must be a better way than trial by fire... because I would wager that for every person who emerges stronger from brutal abuse, there is at least one other who emerges completely screwed up, or worse, indoctrinated into the cycle of abuse, ready to bully someone else when the time comes (i.e. when they have smaller friends, siblings, kids, or a spouse).
How about teaching our kids how not to bully, protecting them from others who do bully, and providing the opportunity for treatment of those who exhibit bullying behavior? This goes regardless of the medium - physical or verbal abuse can both be devastating to a vulnerable person.
Re:Excellent (Score:5, Interesting)
And it doesn't end as you enter adulthood, not if you really look at things. People are the same approval seeking, filthy conformist fuckers from the time their baby brains become fully wired until the day they die. Nothing changes. The only reason most stop pulling bullshit after age 18 is because their asses can be sued or arrested.
Just look at Bush and Kerry, two alleged pinnacles of achievement (presidential candidates). A couple bullies slinging mud and trailing a wake of sycophants behind them. Just like high school. Nothing changes. Nothing matures. The only advancements in civilization are technological improvements and once in a while someone gets and idea that manages to stick (like a Constitution).
Re:Excellent (Score:5, Insightful)
I've had very similar experiences, myself. A big part of the problem, I've noticed, is that people refuse to accept that they're doing it - they have any number of bullshit rationalizations for what they're doing, when really they're just letting the baser parts of their brain dictate behavior. Fundamentally, people are bullies and sycophants because that's what feeds our lower neural wiring - just look at most other primate species if you don't believe me.
And people *DON'T* stop pulling bullshit after age 18, they just learn better and more 'acceptable' ways to do it - things like stealing office supplies and framing you for it, filing spurrious sexual harrassment lawsuits against people they don't like, or claiming date rape against someone who wasn't even at the party.
People are dicks. Congratulations for being able to realize it and say it; you're head and shoulders above the rest of the monkeys.
Re:Excellent (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, it does. Some people's thought patterns are more evolved than others, and they are, in fact, better than others.
This idea of 'everyone is equal' is a great way to run a country, but it is a lousy way to pick ones friends and acquaintences.
Re:One word: Therapy (Score:4, Insightful)
Obligatory link... (Score:3, Informative)
Not karma whoring!
bizarre (Score:4, Insightful)
8th graders are what, 14 years old?
guess what -- that's kiddie porn, folks, and the people doing both the circulation and the viewing are committing crimes with pretty harsh punishments. and according to the article, using school computers to do it.
Re:bizarre (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:bizarre (Score:4, Interesting)
I believe the charges were dropped but I'm not certain.
This leads to a while (off topic) ugly serious of questions. Cases like the above were obviously not how child pornography laws were intended. My understanding is that the intention is to protect children from sexual predators exploiting them. How does the inscreasing ability of children to "publish" on their own, combined with earlier sexual activity affect this?
While it's idiotic, I certianly don't think that a 14 y/o should be criminally liable for a picture/video another 14 y/o sends him.
Thoughts?
Re:bizarre (Score:3, Interesting)
Clifford Stoll is RIGHT! (Score:5, Insightful)
You see, folks! Clifford Stoll is right [amazon.com]! Computers in the classroom are not only an unnecessary and useless distraction, but now they are probably also a serious legal liability.
Please, for the sake of the children, start by unplugging the computers and networks and teach them how to use books again.
Don't write anything you wouldn't want made public (Score:3, Interesting)
Um, not really. I've never felt like anything posted online has been secret in any way at all; even your average Barnes & Noble journal/diary isn't safe from prying eyes if someone has any idea that it exists. It's more like you think that if you believe it's hidden well enough, no one will find it. I've made the mistake of believing that my family wasn't tech-savvy enough to google me and that my boss didn't read my site and as a consequence, I've lost a job, a cousin browsing webcam sites found pictures of me back in my camwhoring days, and my father hasn't spoken to me in over two years.
MMORPGs (Score:5, Insightful)
Some say that online life is a mask people can wear to be someone else. I'm more inclined to believe it's a magnifying glass which can amplify the worst qualities in someone.
That's funny... (Score:3, Funny)
That's funny. That's my definition of marriage.
It's just gotta be said. (Score:3, Insightful)
peter303, you must be new here.
Bullies and Victims (Score:5, Interesting)
1. *Bullies* - who repeatedly make some sort of attack on someone who is (for some reason or another) unable to defend against it (an *asymmetric* relationship).
2. *Passive victims* - who usually don't provoke the bully, they might just be different - or weak - or handicapped - or smart - or not something...
3. *Active Victims* - who tend to be very good at getting under someone's skin - either by the way they say things (perhaps they have a great way to humiliate someone verbally) - but they usually end up seen as the ultimate victim. If you trace things back, active victims look a lot like bullies, but in a different way. They often blame others with a type of rapid revisionist history of events.
4. *Bystanders* - they tend to *normalize* what is accepted in the social setting - so what might be considered bullying by one group, might be considered *normal* by another - which is one reason why you can talk to a teenager all day about not bullying, and they have one view of what that means and sending a *mean IM* probably isn't going to be it, unless that child identifies themselves themselves as the victim.
On a related note - however kids define bullying, more than half say they have been both victims and bullies in different situations, and like all models - the *4 groups* listed above is just a handy way to help some get a handle on the way many situations play out.
The feeling of anonymity (Score:3, Insightful)
I remember helping a friend prove that the harrasing emails that his sister was recieving were coming from someone in the area. There was another girl that the school who was suspected of the emails but the fake contact info for the hotmail account was from the other side of the country. Luckly at that time hotmail correctly included the IP of the machine the person was logged in from in the email headers (not sure if they still do) and it was fairly simple to trace back to a general location. When confronted that the emails were coming from somewhere in the town and the ISP would look up the account info for us she confesed.
The idea is the same then as it is now, the kid feels like they can say what they want and get away with it. Fortunatly most don't really know how to be anonymous online so finding the source via your local geek isn't too difficult.
The Diamond Age (Score:3, Interesting)
The reason for this throwback was in part that survelliance technology had miniturized and infiltrated to the point that any given surface could house cameras and transmitters that could not be traced if they were even noticed. Therefore, keeping a strict code of bahavior was neccesary at all times to deny the possibility of a smear campaign, blackmail, or other possible stigma.
The online bullies scenario brings Stephenson's vision to my mind. Maybe it's time to recognize that anything recorded will probably get around at some point. And it's easier to record than you think.
Kids, pay attention: Maybe it's a stupid idea to masturbate into your webcam and then email the movie to anybody. Email gets around. It's the new STD: Sexual Transmission Disease.
Either that or open up and make accessable DRM techniques to the public.
Take it from someone in this age group. Really. (Score:5, Insightful)
If my parents knew that I had just told you people my age, my mom at least would completly flip out and be scared that someone is coming to abduct me based on this alias and that age. (But that's a different story. This is
I recently had a friend who went point-blank suicidal. I'll refer to him as a he, but note I'm not disclosing that. He threatened that he was both cutting himself and was holding a gun (.45 to be precise, a shotgun) to their head.
This was told to me over, heh, IM. (Once I realized he was serious, I called the police, meh, that's beside the point.) But, let me comment a bit on this story.
"I have kids coming into school upset daily because of what happened on the Internet the night before," Ms. Yuratovac said. " 'We were online last night and somebody said I was fat,' or 'They asked me why I wear the same pair of jeans every day,' or 'They say I have Wal-Mart clothes.' "
*gasp* Let's sit down and think here. Is this really any worse at all than something like this happening in real life? Here's a hint: it's not, it's actually easier to work with than it is in real life. Why is this? It's called the "block" button. Harsh as this may sound, if they sit there and listen to such things, all the while in perfect control and having the ability to change that, then it is in my opinion partially their fault for not clicking the block button and actually dealing with it.
Amanda has her Internet messages automatically forwarded to her cellphone, and by the end of the game she had received 50 - the limit of its capacity.
I'm going to assume ICQ or MSN were used for this, which makes it (sending of IMs to a phone) incredibly easy. MSN, it's a matter of right-clicking and hitting 'Sent to mobile device'. ICQ, just check the SMS button.
The end user is in perfect control of this, should they want this to happen. MSN it's a checkbox in the options to turn it off (which must be turned on in the first place, mind you), and ICQ it's essentially the same thing. There was nothing preventing "Amanda" from not being subjected to this. From this story, everything that happened could have been prevented with about 45 seconds of clicking. (Okay, the exception being things like this [mymmode.com], but again, turn the phone off. There are ways of preventing this. Of course, I really, really would like to see something like an whitelist/blacklist for phone text messages in the future.)
Some of you may ask why I'm essentially "assulting the abused." I am 16, I do know what it's like when this happens, and I do know that, at times, it can cause things such as counseling, etc. etc. etc. I am not assuming that life is perfect and everyone enjoys a perfect life with no one harassing them.
It goes back to a point I made earlier: IM is not any different than real life, except in the fact that it's exponentially easier to deal with. It's the internet. If they spam your e-mail, get a new e-mail. Harass you via SMS web-to-phone? Turn it off.
Then deal with the "offenders" in real life, compared to sitting there and listening.
Like, duh? Hello? These kids don't need advice on how to stay safe online, they need a reality check. In every scneario described, it could have been changed. You hear stories like this, other
The instant messenger should be considered just as dangerous as real life, at very very most, because you don't have to be there, you have a choice not
Re:Take it from someone in this age group. Really. (Score:5, Funny)
I mean, not even a Microsoft bash in there! Where do you think you are?
(Seriously, great post. I have to say you certainly don't sound 16)
I worked at a school... (Score:3, Interesting)
In any case, I think they knew who it was but were just looking for a way to connect this person to the site, especially when a geocities site can be created anonymously. My knowledge was limited to attempting to get the various logs and tracing through them, and I'm not sure if the police had any internal resources for this type of investigation.
Re:NOOOO! (Score:4, Funny)
Kids fight with words and fists
Adults fight with lawyers
Has Darl threatened to kick your butt unless you give him your lunch money for using Linux, yet?
Fork it over (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Fork it over (Score:3, Funny)
-Crusher
You. (Score:3, Funny)
No Karma Bonus either. Gloves are off biatch!
Re:I know this won't make me popular (Score:4, Funny)
..so I'm posting this anonymously.
-Steve
Dear "Steve": If you want to be anonymous, you probably should remove your name from the post.
Re:I know this won't make me popular (Score:4, Insightful)
However: Sometimes tech people do go a little too far and REALLY need to just stop what they're doing, take a break, and try to interact with the real world. Lord of the Rings was a great movie, Sure, I went opening night and stood in line for an hour. That's great. But if someone accidentally called Gandalf "Gandar", I sure as hell wouldn't say to them "heh, that's Gandalf." and then make a comment involving not being able to tell an ent from an orc. No, I know a lot of geeks (again, mostly software "engineers") who just go way too far with the whole thing to the point where they can barely relate to anything non-geeky, and even with the geeky things they're often either straight up wrong or off on a completely irrelevant tangent.
Yeah, these people bother the piss out of me, and I'm still a geek (albeit I did learn a thing or two since then, like how to get out and do other things). But if it comes down to it, these people usually don't deserve being bullied. Sure they're asking for something; if anything, they either should just be ignored, or get some former geek to take them aside and explain a few things. They don't need to stop being geeks/nerds, they just need to know when to rein it in a bit.
But beating on somebody just because they're annoyinglgy geeky? Well, geeks aren't the only ones who need to chill.
Re:No one better agree with this story (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Also via mobile phones (Score:5, Interesting)
-
According to this article from the BBC bullying also occurs via SMS messages, with 16% of 11 to 19 year-olds admitting receiving threatening text messages.
That's worse than IM harrasment since most phones don't provide an easy way to block an individual sending you SMS messages plus most cellular companies allow you to send an SMS message to one of their subscribers from their website.As this was from October 03 it wouldn't surprise me if this figure had risen
Add in many plans have SMS messages costing you a few cents a message (or only so many free then they charge) and you have a major problem. On the bright side the kids sending the threatening messages will likely be violating several laws, local, state, and federal.
Can you imagine a bully in reform school telling his new peers that he was put in there for sending threatening messages? He'd be labeled a geek/nerd and learn what bullying felt like from the victim's side quickly.
Of course that would be poetic justice. :)
On a related note, kids seem to have really lost all common sense. We had an incident in the county I live in where the upperclassmen football players decided to haze the freshman (hazing is both against school policy and against state law here). How'd they decide to go about this? Oh they filled plastic baseball bats full of sand and beat the freshman with them. Some had to be put in the hospital. Most of the kids won't tell who did it because they're scared of retaliation. The parents are livid and the punishment the offenders received didn't help. They were given ten days of in school suspension and forced to set out half of one game.
Frankly I know that every generation will say things weren't as bad when they were kids but even in high school I (and my peers) were smart enough to know beating someone with a heavy blunt object wasn't a good idea.
Re:Child Pornography (Score:4, Informative)
here [post-gazette.com]
Re:I know its off subject, but... (Score:3, Funny)
Oh, wait...