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Technology

Alternatives to Cars? 258

Posted by Cliff from the something-other-than-a-gas-guzzler dept.
H0NGK0NGPH00EY asks: "I hate cars. -- Why in the heck am I lugging a giant steel box with me everywhere I go, and paying through the nose to make it go? Well, the main reason is because there aren't any affordable, viable alternatives. Are there?"
"I drive about 18 miles to work, mostly pseudo-highway (60mph, two-lane road with two stop lights on the way). Too far to bike, or I would--during the summer months, at least. I would get a motorcycle, but in my mind, it's only better than a car on one count, it's size. It still uses gasoline, is dirty, noisy, and has too many moving parts. Plus they don't protect me from the weather.

I've looked into small, commuter electric vehicles. And I've come up largely empty-handed. Here's what I have found:

Corbin Motors' 'Sparrow'
As you may know, Corbin produced about 300 of these beauties before one of their largest investors called in his money, and forced them into Chapter 7 bankruptcy. There were a number of technical problems, and due to their scarcity they're a bit hard to come by now. Besides, who would want to spend $7,000 + on an un-supported vehicle?

Cree's 'SAM'
Basically the same as the Sparrow, but not available yet. The company has been around since 1996(!), and has just recently basically 're-started.' Who knows when, if ever, they'll have a marketable product, especially in the USA.

Commuter Cars' 'Tango'
A local guy with a dream. And a dang fine looking vehicle. But alas, also not in production in any real way, and only currently available in a $85,000 kit. He talks about a $20,000 mass-marketed version, but I'll believe it when I see it...

Nevco's 'Gizmo'
Finally one that appears to actually be available. But at $12,000 it's a little steep for me, especially seating only one and only getting up to 45mph, with a 45 mile range.

So, has anyone here had any better luck?"
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Alternatives to Cars? More

Alternatives to Cars?

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  • "What are bicycles and public transportation, Alex?"

    • Re:Oooh! Oooh! I know! I know! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by vasqzr ( 619165 ) <vasqzr@netscape. n e t> on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:29AM (#9214847)
      Unless you live in a major city in the US, there's no such thing as public transportation, and heck, in many large cities there isn't.

      And, if you live in suburbia, it's just too far to ride a bike/walk.

      • Very true... (Score:3, Interesting)

        by blorg ( 726186 )
        ...but a substantial proportion of the population do live either in a major city *with* decent public transportation or within cycling distance of their place of work (say 5 miles). I'd even say a majority fall into one of these two categories (I'm in Europe.) That doesn't stop all of those people driving.

        • Re:Very true... (Score:2, Interesting)

          by Greventls ( 624360 )
          It isn't the same in America, especially outside the big cities.
        • The US public transportation system is atrocious, even in the larger cities with supposedly good coverage, and it's mostly buses. The only decent mode around here is the subway and that's only an option in certain lucky cities.
      • You have a choice where you live, and it is often possible to live within bicycle distance of work. With the money you save on a car each year, you come out ahead even if it costs a little more. Fortunately, many of the areas with computer jobs (Boston, New York, Bay Area, etc.) have good public transportation.
        • You have a choice where you live

          Maybe so, but you don't always have a choice where you work. I don't think moving is what the OP had in mind.

          • Re:pick where you live (Score:3, Insightful)

            by hak1du ( 761835 )
            Maybe so, but you don't always have a choice where you work.

            But you can live close to where you work, pretty much wherever your work happens to be. Moving in order to reduce the commute, use bicycles, or use public transportation is often a reasonable (and possibly money-saving) option.

            I don't think moving is what the OP had in mind.

            That's exactly the reason I mentioned it.

            • But you can live close to where you work, pretty much wherever your work happens to be.

              I don't know where you live, but I work in downtown Charlotte (NC) and before that worked in downtown Tampa (FL). Both of those had no viable living anywhere close to it, unless you either had over $400,000 to spend on a "luxury condo" or wanted to live somewhere where your safety might be in jeopordy.

            • This is the situation for many, many people in some areas of the country:
              I'll move near my work as soon as THERE IS ACTUALLY SOMEWHERE TO LIVE THERE besides a ditch somewhere in an industrial park.

              *grumble*
      • I don't know about that, I know in my day I used to walk in 3 feet of snow/rain/100 degree heat to work...uphill both ways. It was tough, but we survived.

    • Insightful?!? (Score:4, Funny)

      by funny-jack ( 741994 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:49AM (#9215091) Homepage
      From the submission:

      Too far to bike, or I would--during the summer months, at least.

      What about, "What are 'lack of reading comprehension' Alex?"
      • I read that, and still thought "how far is too far?" I think this (tired) exercise of listing better ways to commute needs to always consider a bike. Especially when you can *put your bike* on most public transportation and shorten overall distances by marrying the two.

        There's really no need to squabble over all this. As gas prices rise, the "what do we do now?" questions are going to come in a steady stream, from many media directions. For the most part, reducing your total living radius and then goin
        • I read that, and still thought "how far is too far?" I think this (tired) exercise of listing better ways to commute needs to always consider a bike. Especially when you can *put your bike* on most public transportation and shorten overall distances by marrying the two.

          I live 25 road miles from my place of work. The choices I've made of those two locales are pretty much non-negotiable, since they fulfill their criteria and the downsides of the commute don't outweigh the upside of the choices. So, moving is

    • Advocacy (Score:2, Interesting)

      by ChrisGuest ( 556510 )
      Though I've never been to the United States, it sounds like public transport infrastructure is less than desirable from the second hand reports I get.
      Isn't this sufficient grounds to be an advocate and lobbyist for more public transport.
      Why look to new technology for alternatives, when the real problem is the underutilation of existant technology.
      I was involved in lobbying for a train station to be built at the University of Newcastle in Australia. It was built the year I left, but it opened up public tr

      • Re:Advocacy (Score:2, Interesting)

        by EvilOpie ( 534946 ) *
        There is one thing you are leaving out of your equation, and that's cost.

        See, it takes money to put some form of public transportation into place. There are very few forms of public transportation that don't have some form of government subsidy to keep them running. While I am sure that there are some places that have self-sufficient funding, that is very difficult to do, especially in places where not a lot of people live. Anyway, what it boils down to is that the larger a city is, the more money it

      • Re:Advocacy (Score:3, Insightful)

        by nelsonal ( 549144 )
        Culturally, and geographically the US is quite different than most regions. Partly because we developed infastructure later than most of the developed world, and partly due to the high value we placed on individual freedom and risk. We prefer single family dwellings (freedom over our home and property), and our transportation habits (freedom to go wherever we wish. As a result the US has invested heavily in housing outside the cities (Phoenix is an extreme example of how our cities look. We have also de
    • where I live (population ~1 Million) we have "public transportation." Well, almost. Almost none to be specific. Now, I don't mind walking; but, the nearest bus stop is actually farther than my place of business. And that's 2.5 miles from my apartment.
  • How bout a Segw~z^H@# NO CARRIER

  • CEV's (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Bastian ( 66383 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:29AM (#9214857)
    The biggest problem with commuter electric vehicles is that most of them consume more energy per mile than an economy car with one occupant. Judging from the flames I've gotten in previous posts, I'll be conservative and say that this means that a Geo Metro or Toyota Echo or something will probably pollute less than your average CEV, depending on how your electricity is generated.

    What would really work best is to carpool - never underestimate the gas/people ratio of a minivan full of 6-8 groggy people in business suits. It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper, too.
    • Yes, but they can hold hundreds of people. Electric engines are far more efficient than internal cumbustion engines as far as energy usage goes, as well.

      • Re:CEV's (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        The problem with electric engines is how the electricity is generated to start with.

        Solar, wind or tidal are decent, but not widely used.

        Nuclear has the waste problem.

        Coal and Natural Gas polute.

        Water Turbines flood areas.

        • Re:CEV's (Score:3, Informative)

          by Carnildo ( 712617 )
          Water Turbines flood areas.

          From where I'm sitting right now, I can see two hydro plants that generate a sizable fraction of the city's power. Between the two of them, they've flooded maybe an acre of land. Wonderful thing, waterfalls.

    • true, but that's not the point (Score:4, Informative)

      by hak1du ( 761835 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @11:43AM (#9215913) Journal
      The reason for using electric vehicles right now is not that they consume less energy, it's that they pollute less at the location where they are used. That's important because cities have real air quality problems, and that's a reason why so many cities use electric vehicles.

      In the long term, electric or hydrogen powered vehicles also have the potential advantage that whatever CO2 is generated during energy production can be sequestered away, rather than being released into the atmosphere. Also, once you have switched to electric or hydrogen, you have a much wider choice of energy sources (e.g., solar becomes an option; it isn't if you burn gasoline).

    • Carpools (Score:2, Interesting)

      by StormForge ( 596170 )
      This is a very good point -- if you start thinking of your milage in terms of "person-miles" per gallon (PMPGs) then it really quickly makes alot of sense to carpool. A huge SUV @ 10 mpg with 4 passengers gets better PMPGs than almost any single-occupant vehicle. With email, PDA's, cell phones, etc..., flexible car pool management is easier than ever too. Plus, you might make some new friends in the process.
    • Dude, your <STRONG> tag is open.
    • "The biggest problem with commuter electric vehicles is that most of them consume more energy per mile than an economy car with one occupant."

      Where do you get this shit? It's all documented right here:

      http://www.fueleconomy.gov [fueleconomy.gov]

      ...and you're just plain wrong!

  • Used Cars (Score:3, Insightful)

    by vasqzr ( 619165 ) <vasqzr@netscape. n e t> on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:31AM (#9214871)

    You can buy an older, used car for $3,000-5,000. If you learn to work on them yourself, you can save money on repairs and maintainence.

    Sure, it won't be the shiniest, newest thing on the road, but you won't be shelling out $500 a month for a car payment, plus half that for full coverage insurance.

    • Re:Used Cars (Score:5, Interesting)

      by crow ( 16139 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:34AM (#9214909) Homepage Journal
      I have to agree here.

      I have a 8-mile commute, and I bicycle when the weather and my schedule permits. For such low mileage, it just doesn't make sense to invest in gas-saving technology. I'll never spend enough on gas to cover the cost of a more efficient vehicle than a used economy car.
    • Try this one:

      $200-$400 a month for car payments (what on earth do you buy that nets you with a $500+ payment??!) , and then double that for insurance!

      • Re:Used Cars (Score:3, Interesting)

        by duffbeer703 ( 177751 )
        Welcome to the modern age. People today don't believe in down payments... 100% financing is the new way. Its going to be a real wake-up call when interest rates go up.

        Look at the people around you. 85% have less than $5,000 in assets. 45% have less that $300 saved.
    • Used cars are definitely the way to go, escpecially if you live in an area with a high incidence of auto theft. For the price of a good alarm system, you can buy a car that isn't worth stealing.

    • Re:Used Cars (Score:2, Insightful)

      by EvilOpie ( 534946 ) *
      You make a good point. I never could figure out why people suggest buying a new, fuel-efficient car to save money on gas. After all, how fuel-efficient does it have to be to save the $20,000 (or whatever) you spent on it?

      Seems like it'd have to get around 900 miles to the gallon to make the price difference up for what you paid for the car in the first place.

    • Re:Used Cars (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Marxist Hacker 42 ( 638312 )
      An extension to this- a number of years ago my brother created an electric car for my grandmother that went 26 miles on a charge. He started with her old Datsun subcompact (I want to say Z80, but I'm not sure and it's been years now), added 96 volts of truck batteries to it, and an 80 HP electric engine hooked up to the transmission. He said his one mistake was leaving in the automatic transmission- it's amazing how much torque those transmissions eat up.

      The upside- it'a possible for a good hardware ha
    • Used cars cost lots more in repairs and unless you're a serious mechanic you aren't going to be fixing things such as blown head gaskets and dead transmissions.

      The most affordable thing to do is buy a $20,000 Japanese car and run it into the ground. You can put 200,000 miles on it easy and you probably wouldn't have any major repairs until way past the 100,000 mark.

  • suck it up and get a motorcycle. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by scumdamn ( 82357 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:33AM (#9214901)
    I drive a motorcycle to work every day. A 250cc bike gets more than 50 miles per gallon and is nice and flexible. Also, the insurance costs about $100 a year. For protection from the weather you can have a cowl, windshield, and rain gear. Stop whining because it's not everything a car is and do something to make things better. Besides, it's fun!
    • Oh yes, I'm sure driving through the snow with a bunchload of groceries is fun on a cycle, if not completely impossible. Don't get me wrong, I like motorcycles, but primary form of transportation they do not make. Ever try to be designated driver when you own a bike? Yeaaahhh. No.
      • Nobody has to sign a contract when buying a motorcycle stating that he will ONLY ride the motorcycle every day for everything he is going to do for the rest of his life. I'm sure there are some people who only have a motorcycle and do not have a car, but I'm sure there are also many people who have a car in addition to a motorcycle. This guy in particular could use the motorcycle for his commute to save on gas, and then use his car in situations that warrant using a car(such as getting groceries in the sn
      • easy way out of that is to drink too much... then when your friend is driving you home, tell him to stop at the grocery. repeat every saturday night.

    • I agree 100% with the parent poster.

      I used to have a 250cc Honda, and it got over 65mpg. Mind you, with my fat ass on it, it topped out at about 70mph, but for commuting, that was more than adequate.

      A windshield, some storage (saddlebags or luggage), a rainsuit, and proper attire (clothing and gear-wise), and you're pretty much set.
    • Motorcycles do not necessarily produce 20 times the pollution of a gas guzzling SUV. Bikes sold in California have more stringent exhaust requirements than the other 49. Also, most new BMW motorcycles have catalytic converters installed.

      I've got a 550cc Kawasaki that gets 57 miles to the gallon. I use it to commute into San Francisco and since I count as a "carpool" I don't have to pay the bridge tolls when I cross during commute hours.

      When I get to work I NEVER have trouble finding free parking.

      Insur
      • I strongly recommend motorcycles as an alternative mode of transportation, however good gear is a must. Leather jacket, pants, gloves, and boots will help you keep warm and will protect your skin if you go down.

        Unless of course you go down under someone's SUV. Heh, no thanks. I prefer having a steel cage around me should I get into an accident. I've seen too many people turn their bones into dust on motorcycles to EVER ride one.

        • Soooooo, the answer to big honkin' steel deathtraps is.... more big honkin' steel deathtraps? Well, I'm glad we have that settled!
          • The two-pronged (they get you coming and going) answer to big honkin' steel deathtraps is smog laws and gas prices. Raise gas prices, and people buy smaller, more efficient cars. Employ strict smog laws, and you'll end up removing the old beaten down gas guzzlers from the road. Both of these things have come to pass, so it's only a matter of time.

            We should really reclassify SUVs as cars, though, and force them to meet smog standards of passenger autos rather than trucks. This means they'd have to put out

    • And get > 40 mpg, 50 if you do all highway, but with the added benefit of things like a radio, a trunk, seatbelts, and your life if you ever get into a crash.
    • Heck, I have a 2002 650CC BMW F650GS with ABS that gets 65 MPG. I bought it a year ago for only $4500 with only 420 miles on it. Insurance is not required in Florida. Pretty hard to beat a deal like that.

      I'm not sure why he complains about not being protected from the elements. It sounds like if he lived closer he'd ride a bicycle, and obviously they don't give you any more protection (and you could probably ride 18 miles to work on a motorcycle a lot faster than you could ride a quarter that distance on a

  • "I hate cars. -- (Score:5, Insightful)

    by vasqzr ( 619165 ) <vasqzr@netscape. n e t> on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:36AM (#9214927)

    "I hate cars. --

    Then why, do you have as the #1 thing on your 'wish list' on your website, a Chrysler PT Cruiser?

    • Good call. (Score:3, Informative)

      by H0NGK0NGPH00EY ( 210370 )
      Hmm, good call. It was mainly because I admire the visual style of the PT Cruiser. Of course, I also know that no one who may buy me gifts (family or friends) is going to buy me a $20,000 car, so it was mainly up there as a joke.

      But, since you mentioned it, I have changed it [timandjeni.com]. :^)
      • I got my pt cruiser for 15000 after 2000 cash back and I get 30+ mpg.

        Of course base model, bust still AC and power windows... Heck, It's even Plum color ;)

  • Car-centric design is the problem (Score:3, Insightful)

    by kawika ( 87069 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:37AM (#9214940)
    The post-WW2 era has resulted in communities that make cars just about mandatory. Occasionally a small town or city will ban cars from its city center, or create safe bike paths and pedestrian walkways, but those are exceptions. Most suburbanites don't like the idea of having any commercial activity whatever in their view, so that tends to put even the small local stores in strip malls on busy highways. That is not friendly to pedestrians or bicycles.
    • That's exactly right, but there's hope in New Urbanism. I'm going to do it a horrible injustice in my explanation, but New Urbanism is a movement to shift city planning back to walkable spaces. The idea is to look at how communities were (unconsciously) formed before mass transit as we know it, and then consciously design in adapted but similar ways.

      For example, one of the tenets of New Urbanism is that all services for daily life must be available within every two-mile circle of population, and these sh

  • Rideshare! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dacarr ( 562277 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:39AM (#9214964) Homepage Journal
    Yes, rideshare. Carpool, vanpool, bus, train, SOMETHING where there is another driver.

    I would highly recommend investigating your locality's municipal transit system. Eighteen miles is a bit of distance on the bus, but it might be worth it.

    Barring that, ask them about carpool and/or vanpool prospects.

  • ...but there's not much I can do. I'm a college student who lives in the dorms, my hometown is in the sticks, and I usually work an internship someplace far off during the summer.

    Public transportation won't help me get to bumfuck, Tennessee, and even if I could bike that far, I'm basically carrying around my entire life in the car.

    Cars are indeed a pain in the ass. In addition to their sheer deadliness and eco-hostility, they require a ridiculous amount of maintenance, at least in my view.

    Fuel the tank

  • Best electric bicycle out there (Score:4, Interesting)

    by flight666 ( 30842 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:41AM (#9214991)
    http://www.electricvehiclesnw.com/main/lite.htm

    Mine is arriving on Monday.
    • I wonder why they decided to make the bike so heavy. At 39lbs sans battery/motor, it's twice the weight of most decent bicycles. With the battery, it's fully one-third the weight of the rider. That's a significant extra weight!

      I should think this electric bicycle would be a far better solution were the bicycle to weigh in at the 24lb mark, with high-pressure tires and quality bearings to reduce rolling resistance as much as possible.

      This would increase the top speed and range, and especially would incr

  • I personally think that our car problem is due to the fact that more and more people live in suburbs or "ex-urbs" (nowhere near a city). The price we pay for each having our own blue heaven is population distribution, and thus the need for more and more highways and cars.

    The solution for any individual is simple: move into a dense city and take public transportation or bike. You don't get to have a big house anymore, but you get a cohesive neighborhood and car-free living. Just depends on your priorities.

    • Re:Density (Score:2, Interesting)

      by nelsonal ( 549144 )
      A big part of that is that our national policies subsidize the crap out of owning a home. The income tax deduction for mortgage interest and Fannie/Freddie allow borrowers to get US government rates mean that it is silly not to own a home (denser housing has not historically appreciated as well as single family housing). These two combined with most homeowners lack of financial knowledge (not counting leverage as part of the return equation, leads people to believe that homes appreciate in value faster th
      • You can own an apartment, too. They call it a 'condo', and they tend to appreciate in value quite well as long as the building itself is well maintained.

        Keep in mind that denser living is not a blanket solution. In many ways, it is terribly limiting. For example, I cannot practise my trumpet at home for fear of bothering my neighbors. I am always concerned about how high my home theater's subwoofer is turned up. I don't have a garage or driveway in which to do woodworking/welding. I certainly cannot have a

  • Motorcycles (Score:3, Interesting)

    by glk572 ( 599902 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:44AM (#9215021) Homepage Journal
    Take another look at motorcycles.

    Actually you'll find that motorcycles get much, much better mileage than any car. Not only do they not use nearly as much gasoline, but look into some of the better brands of bikes and you'll find that their quiet, and clean, especially triumph, and BMWs. Not every bike is a hog.

    You'll also find that motorcycles are quite mechanically simple, all the parts are easily accessible, making the bike easier to work on than a car. Also depending on where you work you may get a better parking spot from riding a bike.

    As for when weather is bad, that's when you either break down and drive your car. Or a better solution is a revolving car pool with people who live near you. If you can't wrangle one with coworkers, try your local transit authority, they can usually help you find a carpool.
    • And, as an extra bonus, you cut down on population explosion by getting yourself smeared all over the highway in an accident.

      What amounts to a minor fender-bender in a car can easily turn fatal on a motorcycle Motorcycles scare me. My wife wants one real bad, but I am just to chicken. I do not want to leave a couple of orphans behind.
  • Try a motorcycle ?
    Or perhaps a Skycar [moller.com]

  • Rocket packs! (Score:3, Funny)

    by AtariAmarok ( 451306 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:44AM (#9215027)
    The answer: get a rocket pack! [slashdot.org]
  • If you can get rid of your card, that's great and it will save you money (keep in mind that you also can always rent something if you need it). But I wouldn't fixate on trying to get rid of the car.

    It is probably more important in the short term to reduce fuel consumption, traffic, and congestion. You can do that by buying a more fuel efficient car and by living closer to work. Smaller cars tend to be more fuel efficient, are easier to park, and should also help a little with congestion. I wouldn't even

  • Hmm... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Cyno01 ( 573917 ) <Cyno01@hotmail.com> on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:47AM (#9215057) Homepage
    The problem arises from having to take a highway, car alternatives are unfortunatly generaly not up to car speeds. If you could find an alternate route with a slower speed limit i would suggest this [cab-bike.com]. After a while 18 miles will be nothing on a recumbant, and a covered one like that reduces drag (you can fly on those things) and protects you from the rain.

  • Maybe a hybrid electric bike? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Jim Morash ( 20750 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:47AM (#9215060)
    This site has some pretty good info on electric-assisted bicycles, though it gets into a bit of silly rhetoric: Electric Bikes Northwest [electricvehiclesnw.com]

  • I love cars...and you suck! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by j-turkey ( 187775 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:47AM (#9215061) Homepage

    OK, silly subject headers aside -- electric cars may be quiet and clean, but they're usually not as energy efficient as they may seem. A good economy car can usually rival an electric car in terms of energy efficency...and they just wreck them in terms of cost (cheaper to purchase -- due to higher production volume and the use of cheaper materials, and definitely cheaper to own -- more moving parts, but parts are made from heavier, cheaper materials, and are available in higher volume and thus, the costs are reduced).

    Motorcycles can be loud, and they can be smelly, but they're probably some of the most fuel efficient vehicles on the road. I've seen 60 MPG on an old ~600cc bike pretty consistently. I don't know what a newer bike can do, but they may be better. However, there are also the issues of weather protection and cargo space...but you were the one who didn't want a big steel box, so you may be out of luck if you want weather protection and cargo capacity in any suitable vehicle (unless you want a carbon fiber monocoque car...bling bling, baby).

    It sounds like you're going to have a hard time finding transportation that you're happy with. Have you considered carpooling to work?

  • Well, yes, there are alternatives (Score:3, Interesting)

    by eyepeepackets ( 33477 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:50AM (#9215105)
    I personally haven't owned a car since 1986. I did own a motorbike for two years but sold it off and went back to bicycles when I noticed I was starting to get fat.

    I bicycle year 'round, never have to worry about exercising; get lots of excitement dodging cars, peds and cougars; and, at 49 I'm in better shape than most everyone else I see except for younger bicyclists. :)

    It's doable: dress apropriately for the weather, put fenders on the bicycle, and always be ultra-aware when on the road -- the cars try to kill you from all directions.

    Also consider moving closer to your work.

  • Others have said this, but I'll emphasize. If you're serious about not worrying about a car, your best bet is to find a job and a living situation that are in reasonable proximity.

    Think of it this way: we've reached a point in American society where people have built lives around the privately-owned automobile. If you don't want to conform, you're going to have to instead build your life around a completely different set of instructions.

    Remember that your job and your home are only two destinations that y
  • You say you've ruled out bikes, but have you looked into recumbent bikes as an alternative? They're a lot less effort than the normal kind, and you can get varying levels of weatherproofing too. I presume you don't need *that* much where you are because those mini vehicles don't look like they'd be cosy at 30 below.

    There's also the electric bike option, and you can even get bikes that are both recumbent and electric [electric-bikes.com], which would really take the strain away.

    You should also look into working from home of co

  • This is about life decisions (Score:5, Insightful)

    by zaqattack911 ( 532040 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:56AM (#9215207) Journal
    You can't have the best of both worlds.

    In the city I live in (Montreal), there is amazing public transportation. It would be a blatant waste of cash to park your car for $80/month downtown.. plus god knows how much in gas.

    Obviously the response is "Waaaa waaaaa" in the city I live in ... I'm too far off from dowtown and public transit blows.

    Well.. there people that pick the places they live in with transportation in mind. You can't expect society to bend to your will, because you need to subbornly live where you live.

    If I suddently got a job opportunity in Austin Texas (I'm a software devel), the first thing I would be asking is how much are they paying me, and is there a good transit system to get me to work.. or a car pool.. or something.

    You can kiss your $10 raise goodbye otherwise.

    Basically I'm saying.. move to a better place, heck you might even make some money in real estate in the process :) The more people are interested in ditching their cars, the sooner cities will be forced to upgrade their public transit systems.

    Love, Zaq
    • If you were to live in Austin, Texas you would most likely have to car pool or live very close to your job, as the public transit system there has issues. Austin wasn't designed to be as large as it has become, and is basically laid with a relatively small urban center. Suburban sprawl is the preferred layout, which definitely has its ups and downs. For example, it's at least reasonable to get a place nearby Dell or Intel up on the North side, or near the semiconductor plants on the South side.
      • Let's not forget IBM which also lives in North austin, past the Arboretum and such. They're one of the area's larger employers and they are up where traffic isn't so bad.

        I worked for Tivoli (originally right in the arboretum, and later just around the corner) when I lived there, and I lived in the apartment complex nearest the office, which meant I was about 5 minutes' walk from work. I paid $600/mo for a sizable one bedroom apartment and I got a very high level of service from maintenance, for example th

  • Let's say you can work at home 4 days a week
    4 days x 36 miles a day = 144 a week / 30mpg (dont' know what car you have) =~ 20 gallons a week at $2/gal

  • Bah, you're completely unrealistic (Score:5, Insightful)

    by JMZero ( 449047 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @10:57AM (#9215230) Homepage
    Finally one that appears to actually be available. But at $12,000 it's a little steep for me, especially seating only one and only getting up to 45mph, with a 45 mile range.

    You want it to seat more than one, but you don't want a "giant steel box"? You want it to go more than 45 mph, but you don't want it to have "too many moving parts".

    And 12,000 is too steep?

    I guess that's why nobody is trying to make these cars. People like you may profess to want them - but aren't willing to compromise anything or pay a reasonable amount.
  • There's only one way to get something that exists other than waiting for the market to turn around. That's to do it yourself.

    Search on google ( I forget URLS ) and you will find people who have converted real motorcycles from gas to electricity. Get some batteries and some decent electric motors and read some mechanical/electrical engineering books and you're all set. You can save lots of money by buying a dead motorcycle instead of a brand new one.

    Don't expect to be able to get anything more than a rid
  • Well, there's this [theaircar.com].

    Unfortunately still concept only, prototypes but no production. However, they seem to be getting closer, although their main focus ATM seems to be companies with vehicle fleets, such as courier companies.
    I know I want one.
  • I think too often environmentalists overlook the absolute utility of having a car.

    It's big, but its comfortable. It is easy to drive in all types of weather. (Try biking in snow.) It is available whenever you need it. It is actually pretty cheap if you want it to be. They are well-understood devices that are easy to maintain (you can rotate the tires, change the oil, and do all sorts of stuff yourself with just a few tools.) You can carry luggage or more passengers with ease.

    People have wanted a car (abbreviations for carriage) ever since they got tired of riding horses. They've built first chariots and later buggies and finally enclosed carriages. When the motor was invented, they got rid of the messy and unhygienic horses and replaced it with the much cleaner and more powerful engine.

    I think people tend to emphasize the downsides of owning a car without realizing the benefits. With a car, anywhere in the United States is accessible in hours. You are free to go anywhere you like whenever you like without having to ask for permission or wait for a bus to show up. You enjoy comfort in cold, hot, wet, or snowy weather.

    What are the downsides for this freedom? A bit of pollution, a higher price tag than most other things you own, and the risk of getting into a collision.

    As for me, until a better solution that is more versatile and useful comes out, I'll be holding on to my cars.

    • Re:Cars are popular because they are useful (Score:4, Insightful)

      by bhima ( 46039 ) <Bhima,Pandava&gmail,com> on Friday May 21, 2004 @01:23PM (#9217587) Journal
      I think you to lightly gloss over the downsides and costs of the automobile so I looked some facts up:

      The cars in the US consume around 150 billion gallons of gasoline a year

      In America alone 50,000 people die and 3,500,000 are injured each year in automobile related accidents

      9 million metric tons of hydrocarbon pollutants (= 49% of U.S. total); 9 million metric tons of nitrogen oxides (= 48% of U.S. total); 56 million metric tons of carbon monoxide (= 67% of U.S. total) are released by cars and light trucks in the US each year

      85% of benzene, 30% of formaldehyde (both of which are known human carcinogens) and 50% of carbon dioxide pollutions are released by cars and light trucks.

      11 million cars leave service yearly, 240 million tires are junked each year which adds to the existing 3 or so billion tires allready in landfills

      60% of land in, near and around urban centers is given up for transportation.

      In the US 95% of nickel, 20% of steel, 12% of aluminum and 10% of copper all go to the production of cars.

      The US spends about 80 billion dollars a year on maintaining transportation infrastructure and 68 billion is spent annually on services such as highway patrols, traffic management, and traffic accident police work.

      I tried to find some statistics of how much of their income the average family spends on cars, fuel, insurance and up keep but couldn't.

      Oh and I wasn't really picking on just the US with those stats, they were just the most readily googled!

      In my experience with bikes is that they are far more useful that most Americans realize. Most people where I work bicycle to work. In the winter it does snow a fair amount where I live, and while I don't bike during winter, many of my younger co-workers bike all year. Rain, sleet, snow all are no big deal because if you are prepared for it you exposure is not that great. Most of those who do bike during winter do so as a matter of choice, they own cars & motorcycles. Sometimes it is snowing or raining hard enough that many people choose to drive to work, but this is only a few days a year! I carry luggage and groceries all the time on my bike, I can carry most of what I need. Sure cars are useful at times but most of the time they are just not needed! If, for example, I go out and buy a new sofa; I rent a small truck for an hour or two or have it delivered, I don't need to own the truck. This same thinking applies to cars. If I want to go to a nearby city I can take the train (which I know is not easy in the US) or I can drive, if I didn't own I car I could rent one for the day or weekend. Or to apply the thinking the other way around: Just because I own car does obligate me to drive everywhere I go.

      Alternates to cars are also easy to maintain (bikes, for example, are very easy to maintain). I do all the work on my bicycle, most of the work on my motorcycle and almost no work on my car. Modern cars are very, very complicated, and I found that for even simple things like oil changes (due to oil disposal) and seasonal tire changes (due to tire storage) I find it just makes more sense to have a qualified mechanic to worry about the upkeep.

      So in summary I find all the arguments that people make about why the have to have their car very week. I'm not really anti-car, I own one. But I don't use it every day because I don't have to, also by biking often I'm in better shape and healthier!

  • Gas prices suck (Score:3, Funny)

    by NanoGator ( 522640 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @11:43AM (#9215910) Homepage Journal
    I was about to write a post here flaming the guy for 'hating cars'. Then I remembered the $2.50 per gallon gas price here in California. Now I'm thinking "More power to ya, man!"

  • a few responses... (Score:3, Informative)

    by H0NGK0NGPH00EY ( 210370 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @12:09PM (#9216253) Homepage
    A few responses to the comments so far:

    "What are bicycles and public transportation, Alex?"
    As I stated in the submission, bicycles aren't really an option. Not only the distance, but I live in the Seattle area, so there are a number of rather daunting hills along my 18 mile commute. As far as public transportation goes, I have looked into that, but commuting from Kenmore to Monroe [msn.com] by bus would take over an hour, and require three bus changes. There just aren't any routes that run directly between the two.

    The biggest problem with commuter electric vehicles is that most of them consume more energy per mile than an economy car with one occupant. ... depending on how your electricity is generated.
    As stated above, I live in Seattle, so the majority of our electricity comes from the dams [wa.gov]. Almost certainly cleaner than burning a gallon of gas every 30 miles.

    You can buy an older, used car for $3,000-5,000. If you learn to work on them yourself, you can save money on repairs and maintainence.
    I already have an older used car, [fueleconomy.gov] that I only paid $2000 for six years ago. And, I already do work on it myself. The point isn't just the cost, but the waste of space and fuel. Even though I get 30mpg, [fueleconomy.gov] it still feels like a waste.

    suck it up and get a motorcycle. ... Stop whining because it's not everything a car is and do something to make things better.
    First, who's whining? Second, I'm not prepared to take the risks associated with a motorcycle. Too many drivers are blind to them, and here in Seattle, the weather is not very friendly to motorcycles for much of the year. Believe me, there are tempting aspects of motorcycles, but they don't hold enough advantages over my cheap clunker car to woo me to them.

    Then why, do you have as the #1 thing on your 'wish list' on your website, a Chrysler PT Cruiser?
    See above [slashdot.org]. Good point, and I have changed it. (^_^)

    Yes, rideshare. Carpool, vanpool, bus, train, SOMETHING where there is another driver.
    I'm actually working on that. Working way out in sticks, most people at my small company (less than 2 dozen employees) come from different directions than me, or work different hours than me. One person comes from my direction, and we're working out a plan to carpool at least a few days a week, even though we usually work different hours than each other.

    Basically I'm saying.. move to a better place, heck you might even make some money in real estate in the process :)
    Hmm, not likely, considering two factors: 1) I don't own a house. 2) I'm only paying $250 a month for the two-bedroom I'm at now. Again, given that I'm living in the greater Seattle area, [cityofseattle.net] moving would be an incredibly foolish financial decision.
  • Is tele-commuting an option? nice DSL line with a VPN into the company? Saves you using any sort of transportation at all.

    T.
  • You will be in a fiberglass 'box' instad of a steel one.

  • I love my motorcycle (Score:3, Informative)

    by codeButcher ( 223668 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @12:13PM (#9216322)
    Disclaimer: metric / southern hemisphere-centric. Please do your own conversion.

    I started riding motorcycle 'bout 3 years ago. My first one was a BMW F650GS. Gave me about 4.2 liters / 100km (even with heay riding, maxing the speedo out at 160km/h). Dirty? Comes standard with a catalytic converter. Only dirty part was that chain, that needed to be lubed regularly. Noisy? Not really. Heck, in Europe even the Harleys are silent :-). Cold? Mind you, Johannesburg's winters may be not as harsh as other places, rarely goes below 0C, but those heated handlebars come in quite handy from May to Sept. The great thing: it's a real rush hour beater. My commute is about 40 km, and in Johannesburg's insane traffic, it still takes me no more than 45-50 minutes.

    Then again, feet have proven quite sufficient for thousands of years :-p

  • Ok - only once a week or so, but it is quite nice. Consider it takes me just over an hour to bike it, and a 1/2 hour to drive (yes the roads are getting that bad in the bay area again). So it is only costing me about 45 minutes MAX to bike.

    Well I get to save a trip to the gym that is at least 45 minutes, plus I get to look at the pelicans in the bay on my way to work rather than the idiot that didn't know how to merge this morning

  • I would get a motorcycle, but in my mind, it's only better than a car on one count, it's size. It still uses gasoline, is dirty, noisy, and has too many moving parts. Plus they don't protect me from the weather.

    You are complaining about the wrong things and to the wrong people. It is possible to build a quite motorcycle, but I'll let you in on dirty little secret. They wouldn't sell. Those that buy motorcycles like big, noisy, powerful machines. Motorcycles can go up to 180 mph easy and still get great m
  • It's cheap and if you get into an accident, you just mold it back into shape.

  • Afforable, safe ait transportation (Score:3, Interesting)

    by scorp1us ( 235526 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @01:06PM (#9217318) Journal
    I have to drive 30 miles to work on some of the most congested roads. Without traffic, it takes 30 minuts, on a day with a avgerage-substantial amount of traffic it takes 1:45.

    This has me seriously looking into helicopters. You can get them about about $20,000, but the licensing and all will cost another 50k.

    There are some 1-person ultra small helicopters that you don't need a license for, these are ~50k, but don't need a license. The smaller ones have much smaller rotors, and I could land them in the parking lot at work. I'd still have to fill up the same amount and on the same scedule though. So no gas savings, but I get 2-3 hours of my day back.

  • 18 miles is not too far for a bicycle! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by aquarian ( 134728 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @05:13PM (#9220331)
    As an avid cyclist, I can vouch for the fact that 18 miles is not too far for a bicycle. After a month of commuting by bike, you'll find that distance (36 miles per day round trip) is like nothing. Of course this depends on terrain -- if the roads are dangerous or extremely mountainous, or if the weather is bad, it might not be practical. But the distance isn't a problem. I can haul my sorry 40 year old butt along at over 20 MPH on flat terrain, and 16-17 MPH in the mountains -- indefinately. You can too.

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