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Sun Microsystems

Co-founder Joy to leave Sun 362

Posted by CmdrTaco from the insert-setting-sun-joke-here dept.
TheLinuxWarrior writes "An article at CNET says Bill Joy, Sun Micro co-founder and chief scientist, is leaving the company." You'd think after two decades of working at Sun, they could've found a better picture!
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Co-founder Joy to leave Sun More

Co-founder Joy to leave Sun

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  • So I guess... (Score:3, Funny)

    by MarvinMouse ( 323641 ) * on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @10:51AM (#6909874) Homepage Journal
    It really is a Joy to leave Sun. ...
    Thank you, I'll be here all evening. :-)

    • Re:So I guess... (Score:5, Funny)

      by bluethundr ( 562578 ) * on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @10:54AM (#6909933) Homepage Journal
      It really is a Joy to leave Sun. ... Thank you, I'll be here all evening. :-)

      :::sound of slashdot crickets:::

    • Re:So I guess... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:04AM (#6910098)
      Lame attempts at humor notwithstanding, I found it a great joy to leave Sun. Though working with Joy up in Aspen would be a fine scenario.

      When I started working with SunOS in 1992, I thought that working at the pioneering company would be a great career path. After several years, I finally got there, and was immensely distressed at the culture of "not invented here" and "zero career growth" as unspoken rules. They build lovely campuses to work in, but boy did it suck to be a minion there.

      • Re:So I guess... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @01:15PM (#6911954)
        After several years, I finally got there, and was immensely distressed at the culture of "not invented here" and "zero career growth" as unspoken rules.

        Same with nearly all companies. There are two philosophies of running companies.

        Method #1: "Core Technology Group" - Form your core technology group with experienced staff. Then recruit project managers to manage software engineers. Any strangers will only get offered the dead-end jobs while nieces/nephews and trusted staff get the good software engineering jobs. This is great if you're an senior engineer/architect. The advantage of this method is you keep your senior staff. The disadvantage is that you keep losing your junior staff.

        Method #2: "Everyone gets pushed up into management". In this method, the philosophy is to get the new graduates to bring in new ideas. Whenever somebody comes along and has experience (from another company or an university project) an existing member of staff is promoted to team leader. After several pushes they get pushed into a project manager (and promptly leave to set up their own company). In some states/countries management will slap on a Non-Compete-Agreement if they can get off with it. This usually ends up with the brightest entry-level graduates not applying to the company. The disadvantage is that even if you are loyal to the company you'll more often than not get bogged down in some tedious but critical part of a project, only to see new graduates get to work on the latest technology.

        This is great when you're an entry level graduate. The disadvantage to the company is that they keep losing their senior staff. Smaller companies seem to be run this way.

        Be lucky you haven't applied to a company which uses grad-fighting as an interview technique: Invite 10-12 graduates to an interview session and sit them around a table for a debate. Tell them that there are several positions available and that these will go to the individuals who make the most contribution to the debate. Then sit back and watch the fight take place.

        • Re:So I guess... (Score:3, Interesting)

          by tetra103 ( 611412 )

          Same with nearly all companies...

          Yes, sad but true. I'm sure everyone has their own dead end career stories, but here's mine: A few years ago I was hired as a UNIX systems administrator. I came into the company as a senior UNIX systems administrator. With the typical corporate downsizing, most of the middle management was cut and we're more a flat manangement style with only a few higher ups and alot of peers. Anyway, during my raise review this year I was informed that I was being overpaid and hen

          • Re:So I guess... (Score:4, Insightful)

            by BuffPustule ( 519330 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @02:59PM (#6913161) Homepage
            You owe it to yourself and your self-esteem to start looking hard for an alternative to this job. Once your boss belittles your worth and contribution, your best answer is to find another job (not that I'm recommending you jump out of the pan and into the fire, though) because:

            a) you will learn something new at a new job

            b) you will feel better for having found work where you are appreciated

            c) you will allow your former boss the opportunity to determine for himself just how important your contribution really was

            By the very fact you read this web site, you are more informed than many and your desire to stay abreast of current developments in tech means you most likely have retained (or even added to) your senior admin skills during your time at Kodak.

            Consider non-standard jobs, or start contributing to existing free/open source projects in your spare time now, and that may help you connect with people in a position to hire.

            Good luck, and don't let bozos make you feel bad!

    • Re:So I guess... (Score:4, Funny)

      by TopShelf ( 92521 ) * on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:27AM (#6910444) Homepage Journal
      So when will the poets start chiming in?

      There is no Joy in Sunville,
      Mighty McNealy has struck out...
    • Q: What do you call one senior executive leaving Sun?

      A: A start, at least.

  • I knew it.. (Score:5, Funny)

    by grub ( 11606 ) <slashdot@grub.net> on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @10:52AM (#6909885) Homepage Journal

    It's a conspiracy, hear me out before you think I'm off my rocker.

    "Sun" has 3 letters, so does "SCO" and "Joy". "Bill" is also the name of some guy at Microsoft.

    SCO claims it is making no money (0), there are eight letters in "MICROS~1" (8) and SCO thinks they are the sole owner of UNIX and Linux (1). Apply those numbers to SUN:

    rot0 S == S
    rot8 U == C
    rot1 N == O

    That's not all; note how SCO and Sun both start with "S" which looks a lot like a dollar sign? What is the 3rd letter from the right in "MICROS~1"? An "S". 3 companies with "S" in their names, third letter from the right is an "S". S looks like a dollar sign.. you know the inevitable conclusion..

    The above facts speak for themselves: Bill Joy is in the pockets of SCO and Microsoft. He's leaving Sun to enjoy his millions of ill-gotten gain.

    Don't even think of getting me going on SGI in the equation.


    now where is my tin foil hat..
    • I is the third letter from the left. ~ is a non-alphanumeric character.

  • file not found. (Score:5, Funny)

    by ChrisTower ( 122297 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @10:52AM (#6909903) Homepage
    You'd think after two decades of working at Sun, they could've found a better picture!

    Geez, The man is a scientist, give him a break. Asking for a good picture of a scientist is like asking for a serious shot of Alf.

  • Position filled (Score:5, Funny)

    by Simsypoo ( 619319 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @10:53AM (#6909922) Homepage
    Joe Angry will now step in and fill the vacated spot .

  • Adios, Mr. Joy... (Score:5, Funny)

    by kurosawdust ( 654754 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @10:53AM (#6909925)
    Here's hoping that he founds a new start-up with a guy named "Pride"...

  • So, what's he doing next? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by djh101010 ( 656795 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @10:55AM (#6909958) Homepage Journal
    Whatever it is, I'm going to buy stock in it. This guy is a genius, and has truly initiated world-changing technologies. I'm going to be closely watching to see where he goes, because it's going to be impressive.

    I wonder, though, what this means for the future of Sun...

  • A better picture? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @10:56AM (#6909972)
    You'd think after two decades of working at Sun, they could've found a better picture!

    That is the better picture.

  • Those in glass houses.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by stratjakt ( 596332 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @10:57AM (#6909986) Journal
    You'd think after two decades of working at Sun, they could've found a better picture!

    Let's see a good picture of you, Taco.

    This guy looks like a GQ model compared to any given slashdot editor.
  • Replaced by Greg Papadopoulos. I bet that guy got beat up a lot as a kid.

    Reminds me of the delivery guy in Big Daddy, trying to say Hippopotamus.
  • from the insert-slashdot-joke-here dept.
    TheLinuxWarrior writes "An article at CNET says Rob Malda, Slashdot co-founder and editor, is leaving the company." You'd think after two decades of working at Slashdot, they coulda changed the graphics and page layout a bit!

    But, if you can take that joke, taco, I guess you are free to joke at Sun all you'd like ;-)

  • geek picture (Score:3, Redundant)

    by ramzak2k ( 596734 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:00AM (#6910024)
    You'd think after two decades of working at Sun, they could've found a better picture!

    Cmon, we bad looking geeks take pride in our bad pictures. Its something like having a lot of cables under the table, messy desktop etc. That picture must make Joy proud.

  • pic (Score:3, Funny)

    by Washizu ( 220337 ) <bengarvey@co m c a s t . net> on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:00AM (#6910036) Homepage
    "You'd think after two decades of working at Sun, they could've found a better picture!"

    How about this one [nanoquest.com]?

  • Rats leaving a sinking ship? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by rf0 ( 159958 ) <rghf@fsck.me.uk> on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:02AM (#6910055) Homepage
    I dunno I always get worried when a company is generally in trouble and people leave. However it might in turn be a good thing as it depends on his motives if he feels that he is burnt out and wants a fresh challenge.

    Of course I can think of at least 1 company where there is large reductions but the people in the top still live in the ivory tower.

    Rus

  • The other Sun folks probably checked... (Score:5, Funny)

    by falzer ( 224563 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:02AM (#6910067)
    The other Sun folks probably checked his past history and discovered that he wrote VI. No wonder he's "leaving." ;)

  • BSD, SUN, etc... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by djcdplaya ( 220461 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:02AM (#6910070) Homepage
    For those who don't know, this is sort of the original founder of BSD.

    He wrote the BSD IP stack while at Berkeley (BSD, duh).

    Let's hope he works on his terms somewhere and stays away from the business/corporate world.

    • and vi (Score:5, Informative)

      by tigersha ( 151319 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:08AM (#6910166) Homepage
      And he was responsible for vi. For this I cannot decide whether he should be praised as a computer great or be disgraced as the author of the greatest horrible-excuse-for-an-editor known to man.

      http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~kirkenda/joy84.html

      • Re:and vi (Score:4, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:23AM (#6910391)
        > as the author of the greatest horrible-excuse-for-an-editor known to man.

        one word: edlin

      • Re:and vi (Score:3, Interesting)

        by RevMike ( 632002 )
        And he was responsible for vi. For this I cannot decide whether he should be praised as a computer great or be disgraced as the author of the greatest horrible-excuse-for-an-editor known to man.

        I'm a pro-vi (vim, actually) bigot, but I don't want to start a religious war. At least not today.

        Remember to place vi exactly in its context. Vi placed a useful set of extensions on ed/ex, and so enhanced an established tool. Enhancing an established tool has advantages and brings baggage.

        Pro-vi points...

        • Re:and vi (Score:3, Informative)

          by Daniel Phillips ( 238627 )
          vi represents the "Unix-way" of small efficient single purpose tools.

          daniel@moonunit:~$ sudo apt-get remove vim
          Reading Package Lists... Done
          Building Dependency Tree... Done
          The following packages will be REMOVED:
          vim
          0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 to remove and 151 not upgraded.
          Need to get 0B of archives.
          After unpacking           15.3MB disk space will be freed.
          Do you want to continue? [Y/n] y
      • vi is like democracy. It's the greatest horrible-excuse-for-an-editor known to man; except for every other editor.

        KFG
      • For this I cannot decide whether he should be praised as a computer great or be disgraced as the author of the greatest horrible-excuse-for-an-editor known to man.

        Praise for both. vi is an excellent editor allowing full control from the QUERTY keyboard home position. After 26 years or so, it is still the standard UNIX editor (no ed jokes, please). It is fast and small yet has few annoying limitations (line length is annoying but rarely a real issue). It doesn't second-guess the programmer yet is smart
        • vi is an excellent editor allowing full control from the QUERTY keyboard home position.

          You must have a really mutant left hand.
          • You must have a really mutant left hand.

            No, I just have a proper UNIX keyboard with the Control key between the Shift and Tab keys. PC keyboards suck.

            • The thing that really ticks me off is that at my school there are certain Sun keyboards that have the Ctrl key where you describe and others where that put it in the more expected place.

              It can be a real bitch to get used to the configuration of the machine you happen to log into.

          • Re:and vi (Score:3, Funny)

            by Jeffrey Baker ( 6191 )
            You have to be completely ignorant of the meaning of QWERTY to be able to mistype it. The keys are all right there in a row!

        • After 26 years or so, it is still the standard UNIX editor (no ed jokes, please)

          Well, ex was the reliable fallback.

          My first few years on UNIX I used vi until emacs(Gosling, then Stallman's flavo[u]rs), but one of the big hassles back then was all the different terminal types documented in /etc/termcap, with the vt100 only a fuzzy standard.

          I remember dropping into ex instead of either vi or emacs because I couldn't stand the wait for a full 24x80 character screen refresh over a 1200 baud modem.

      • I felt the same way about vi when I first used it in the late-1970s, but after using it I realized that its user interface was masterful in the way it took advantage of touch typing in the editing process. Yes, the "modal" interface can be a bit confusing but once you know it your fingers never forget, and they never have to leave the home keys.

        The internals of Bill Joy's vi code, however, were butt-ugly at the time. The input loop was a giant switch statement with all kinds of flags and special cases. Mor
  • is it possible he is headed fro Apple?
    • is it possible he is headed fro Apple?

      By George, that is a 'fro in the photo ...

    • BIll does not care about Operating systems anymore. His interest is in research and development. Sun is cutting this to meet wall street expectations. Also has Sun really innovated anything in the last decade? Java and in the 80's large mainframe like capabilities with server level hardware. That is it.

      Its time to go. He may actually be a professor at a college and work on grants. They are more liberal and he does not have to worry about researching topics that profitable.

  • Am I the only one who read "Co-founder of Joy to leave Sun" and thought this was about dishwashing soap?
  • We all owe you a lot. Good luck.

  • Picture.... (Score:3, Funny)

    by simetra ( 155655 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:09AM (#6910170) Homepage Journal
    Wasn't he in the 80's Super Group Foreigner? Or Journey?

  • Picture? (Score:5, Funny)

    by devphaeton ( 695736 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:10AM (#6910190)
    How can he be an innovative, impressively accomplished UNIX(r) guy?

    HE HAS NO BEARD!!!
  • Dear me! That photo's worse than the one of the Microsoft founders as spotty twentysomethings.

    Chris

    Like fiction? Try espresso stories

  • When will it end? (Score:5, Funny)

    by GeneralTao ( 21677 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:15AM (#6910259) Homepage
    First Love, now Joy! What's NEXT!?!?

  • The article is slightly incorrect (Score:5, Informative)

    by watzinaneihm ( 627119 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:16AM (#6910279) Journal
    The article says sun was co-founded by Scott mcneally an Bill Joy. Actually there were 4 of them [wikipedia.org] out of which 2 have already quit. So with the third guy on the way out it leaves only Scott behind.
    Bill Joy can easily take a lot of credit for Java though
    • It is amazing how most of the American tech press is either ignorant of this or does not want to acknowledge it. Maybe it has something to with Khosla being an Indian immigrant and therefore not worthy of serious consideration. I mean, placing Khosla alongside superhuman prophetic 'native' American geniuses like Bill Joy and Scott McNeally? C'mon, the audacity! It is almost subconscious, the way immigrant contributions to Silicon Valley are automatically forgotten. And weeded out of its historical accounts

  • A 20 year old interview with Bill Joy (Score:5, Interesting)

    by tigersha ( 151319 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:17AM (#6910290) Homepage
    Here is a cool 20 year old interview with him, written as far as I can see just after the first Mac came out. It makes for interesting reading:

    http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~kirkenda/joy84.html
    • Great!

      A favorite quote: "EMACS is a nice editor too, but because it costs hundreds of dollars, there will always be people who won't buy it."

      Another one: "Real programmers use cat as their editor."

    • If that scrunch had not happened, vi would have multiple windows, and I might have put in some programmability - but I don't know.

      Since I sort of invented the editor that was most complicated, I thought I would compensate by also designing the editor that was most simple. But I got distracted. If I had just spent another day on it... I could actually edit a file on it. I actually used it to edit itself and scrunched the source code - sort of old home day, because we used to do that all the time.

      I wonde

  • Bill Jpy's resignation letter (Score:5, Funny)

    by sys49152 ( 100346 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:18AM (#6910320)
    :q!

  • bad news for Sun (Score:5, Interesting)

    by esarjeant ( 100503 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:26AM (#6910430) Homepage
    This does not bode well for Sun. Bill Joy was truly a visionary and they are going to have to make significant changes in R&D strategy to compensate for this loss. Note that SUNW stock is reacting accordingly, I expect we'll see $2.80 before the end of '03.

    Joy is such a luddite that there really is no threat of him starting another technology company. It's likely he will pursue more writing and pontificating, while Sun will flounder aimlessly as they seek a niche in this new technology market.

    • Re:bad news for Sun (Score:2, Informative)

      by oldmanmtn ( 33675 )
      "Score: 4, Interesting" my ass.

      The author claims that Joy is such a visionary that Sun's entire R&D strategy will have to change. Then in the next line he says that Joy is such a luddite that he'll never get involved with another tech company. Which is it? Visionary or luddite?

      This is so plainly just somebody looking for a way to bitch about Sun that I can't believe anybody bothered to mod it up.

  • No Joy for Sun (Score:4, Insightful)

    by digitaltraveller ( 167469 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:27AM (#6910455) Homepage
    It's unusual for founders to leave like this.
    This is probably over a major senior management disagreement. A dispute about the best way for Sun to haul it's ass out of the fire. What other subject would they have time to talk about at Sun HQ? McNealy is schitzophrenic, one day he's wearing a penguin suit the next day he's funding SCO's fud campaign against Linux to slow down SUN's haemorraging bottom line.
    I guess Bill was on the losing side. The last few things I have read in the trade press (mostly from some ponytailed hippie VP named Johnathan Schwartz) sounded like Sun still hasn't got that they need to take bold risks to stay relevent in today's computing world.
    So by virtue of having stayed silent I think Bill Joy has more of a clue about company direction then these other clowns.
    Sun (like the town of Gotham) needs an enema. If I was in McNealy's shoes I would hire somebody like Tim O'Reilly to come in and give the company a wake up call on corporate strategy.

    • Re:No Joy for Sun (Score:2, Insightful)

      by oldmanmtn ( 33675 )
      It's unusual for founders to leave like this.

      Oh, BS. It's enormously unusual for a tech company to last 21 years, let alone have half of the founders still involved.

      This is probably over a major senior management disagreement...What other subject would they have time to talk about at Sun HQ?

      And more BS. Joy was a founder, but he's not involved in the day-to-day "management" of the company. Regardless of what Sun management talks about at "HQ", Joy has been in his Aspen lab churning out cool st

  • Seperated at Birth? (Score:3, Funny)

    by trix_e ( 202696 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:33AM (#6910537)
    Bill [com.com] and Gene [istar.ca]
  • The decade of the "Bill's" is fading.

    Bill C.
    Bill J.
    Bill G.

  • Why would anyone choose sun? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by T-Ranger ( 10520 ) <jeffw@cheMENCKENbucto.ns.ca minus author> on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @11:55AM (#6910892) Homepage
    This is a serious question.. I mean why?

    Sun's traditional products have been Unix workstations, and because there necessary for unix workstations, unix servers. And of course software to run on them.

    In the grand scheme of things, only recently has Sun started producing realy big boxes. And simotaniously, the need for big boxes has decreased: its clusterd micros as far as the eye can see.

    For a general purpose unix workstation, a PC with Linux is cheeper, and more powerfull.. I daresay that the likes of Redhat is easier to manage then Solaris. For high end deskops for visualization, get a (Intel based) SGI with its fancy software. For entry level server, linux rocks. For mid range stuff, a cluster of linux boxen on Intel based SMP boxes is better then a single, or a smaller cluster of Suns. And for realy high end stuff, IBM is the only game in town: whatever else you can say about them they have made rock solid mainframes for 50 years, that work all the time, period. If you need such a machine, why would you risk getting one from a company that has been in that market for what? 2 years.

    I priced a Sun PCI SCSI card last week. $500. No RAID, no cache, just a vanila SCSI card with a Sun sticker (and solaris support). Thats just insane.

    So why? Why would anyone ever go to Sun for anything?

    • Re:Why would anyone choose sun? (Score:5, Informative)

      by pmz ( 462998 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @12:23PM (#6911256) Homepage
      I priced a Sun PCI SCSI card last week. $500. No RAID, no cache, just a vanila SCSI card with a Sun sticker (and solaris support). Thats just insane.

      One thing you do get is peace of mind in an environment where time == money. It is very likely that Sun-branded card was integration tested with their machines and Solaris, so the odds are very very good that it will serve you well. Contrast this with the PC world, where the odds are simply good. The difference is not trivial, IMO.

      If I had a business, where revenue was good enough that I didn't have to survive on peanut butter and scrapped-together computers, I would seriously consider Sun equipment. It can be refreshing to simply plug in a card, do a boot -r, and have it ready to go. Along with SunSolve and docs.sun.com, Sun doesn't often leave people wanting for documentation, either. It seems they generally treat their customers pretty well. With PC companies, things are less predictable, and a big brand name doesn't really imply any amount of quality (often they are worse than the white-box suppliers).

    • I priced a Sun PCI SCSI card last week. $500. No RAID, no cache, just a vanila SCSI card with a Sun sticker (and solaris support). Thats just insane.

      So why? Why would anyone ever go to Sun for anything?

      Because the only alternative in many cases is an IBM AIX Server, just try to keep one running without very expensive IBM tech on site every week or so. Sun is like the Macintosh of servers, it just works. Of course, you try to use Linux/BSD whenever possible so you don't ever have to see a $995 pricetag f
  • Bill in the Ultimate taxi [ultimatetaxi.com]..

  • he talks about music industry officials doing what they are doing in order to support their crack habits?? He spoke of it when he gave a lecture somewhere, and it was very interesting. A URL would be much appreciated. I have been looking for this article for a long time.
  • Having to stare at a crying baby face for a Sun while they drink their Java before starting their day all because Joy has left their lives...
  • For all of the real innovations you have contributed to the community.
  • Bill Joy is quoted as saying... "For 21 years, I've enjoyed the opportunities for innovation provided to me at Sun, but I have decided the time is now right for me to move on to different challenges,"

    Another interpretation could be "there are no more opporunities for me at sun".

  • this seems pretty topical/relevant: (Score:4, Interesting)

    by weileong ( 241069 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @01:04PM (#6911834)
    Article from SFGate [sfgate.com]:

    Michael Dell, who built an empire selling computers based on other companies' innovations, argued Monday that the future in the technology market belongs to players who embrace industry standards, not proprietary systems.

    The 38-year-old chief executive of Dell Inc. also strongly suggested that one of his company's top Silicon Valley rivals, Sun Microsystems, may never get back on its feet because it's stuck in a business model that no longer works.
    "I think there are parts of the industry that will never recover, and the reason is that their business is fundamentally based on things that people aren't going to buy very much of anymore," Dell told The Chronicle after his keynote speech at OracleWorld, Oracle's annual user conference in San Francisco.

    "They're waiting for (demand for proprietary systems) to come back," he added. "Sorry, it ain't going to happen."

    Larry Singer, Sun's senior vice president for global market strategies, disputed Dell's view of the Santa Clara company and the trends in the technology industry.

    "When Michael Dell gets up there and says those who don't follow industry standards won't make it, it's a bit disingenuous," he said in a phone interview.

    "Innovation still matters. Market standards come from new innovations and new technologies."

    Like other major companies such as Hewlett-Packard and IBM, the Texas firm sells computers, servers and other hardware based on widely used technologies developed by such companies as Intel and Microsoft.

    On the other hand, Sun, which was once recognized as the top provider of corporate computing, has been a major industry player by offering products based mainly on its proprietary systems.

    Asked if he believed that the struggling Sun would never recover, Dell, who typically shies away from comments on competitors, answered: "I sort of said that, but I didn't say that.

    "But if you look at their peak revenues and where they are now, it's a pretty big difference, right?" he added. "And if you look at what people are buying now and what they were buying then, it's a big difference."

    Singer defended Sun's strategy and performance.

    "For Michael Dell, his definition of a market standard is the company that's selling the most today, and that's a pretty easy standard to pick," Singer said. Citing the rapid expansion of Sun's Java technology, particularly in mobile computing, he added, "The definition of what a standard is is beginning to change."

    Dell's remarks underscored the debate over the role of innovation and research and development in the tech industry as top players, such as Dell, Sun and HP, maneuver for advantage in the anticipated rise in corporate spending on technology.

    Dell Inc. became a tech behemoth by selling directly to consumers and keeping its spending on research and development down.

    But rivals like HP and Sun have portrayed the Texas firm as a technological lightweight that grew on the backs of other companies' hard work in research and development.

    Dell Inc. has made inroads in the low-end server market, defined as systems under $100,000 each.

    But its critics scoff at the company's bid to move up the corporate technology market, arguing that only companies that invest in innovation can afford to compete in the mid-range and higher-end corporate markets.

    Sun lost $2.38 billion in its fiscal year that ended in June, compared with a loss of $587 million the previous year. But the company has remained a respected technology innovator, particularly in the high-end market.

    "The companies that will survive will be those that innovate technologies," and that means spending on research and development, Singer said.

    But Dell has been unfazed by such criticism. In the interview, he reaffirmed his belief that hefty R&D budgets can be overrated and don't necessarily lead to hi

  • No Joy at Sun (Score:2, Interesting)

    by randall_burns ( 108052 )
    Sun has lost over 95% of its shareholders' non-cash equity the last 3 years. More importantly, McNealy has lost serious credibility. I worked at Sun as a contractor for 2 years [outlander.com] 10 years ago. Sun had a collection of really bright people, but the decision making process was flawed even then. McNealy had aspect of a class act. Unlike many Silicon Valley execs, he actually worked to be visible. The basic problem here though: the old guard that made these guys has largely been booted or is horribly demoralized(

  • he quit for human reasons (Score:3, Interesting)

    by shakuni ( 644197 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @01:11PM (#6911900)
    I dont know Bill Joy at all but from his accomplishments and his contributions like this one http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy_pr.htm l he seems like a great mind. He admits that he is not a scientist as someone in the previous postings have indicated. He is more a computer architect. His view is that scientists have a bigger role to play in advancement of computing than computer engineers. But most importantly he has pointed to the much needed change to human ideal of a utopian world. He urges us to change ultimate human goal to compassion from blind pursuit of scientific knowledge. In fact, I think he quit his pursuit of technology and he is going to be in the realm of fighting battles against unbridled pursuit of scientific excellence which has the potential of a larger destruction than the current dystopia of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. all the best in the pursuit Bill. Its great to see people believe in and pursue goals that are aligned with the bigger objective than most can see or comprehend but reap the benefits of. Carl Sagan in his book Cosmos had a chapter called "Who thinks of Mother Earth?" which showed human parochialism. Bill has echoed this sentiment quite strongly and persuasively in his articles and work which talks about maximising narrow gains at the expense of larger humanity wide goals.

  • One down, one to go. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by IGnatius T Foobar ( 4328 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2003 @06:02PM (#6915269) Homepage Journal
    This is not a troll, so give me a chance here before pressing those mod buttons.

    Lately, Sun has has two really big problems holding it back. Those problems are named Scott McNealy and Bill Joy. Stuck in unixland. They were the only "minicomputer" company that didn't jump to Windows NT back in the early 1990's, and they won big time on that bet. Unisys, Data General, etc. where are they now?

    Sun stuck with Unix and it turned out to be a good play for them. Now the big man on campus is Linux, and the Sun top brass think they can make the same play again. But this time it's different:
    • Moving from Unix to Linux is easy
    • Customers don't have oodles of cash anymore
    • Linux, unlike Windows, does not suck.
    • It's time for Sun to stop being schizophrenic, and embrace Linux as much as SGI, HP, and IBM have. Linux is the name of the game, and I really believe that it's been McNealy and Joy holding them back. Joy is now gone. If McNealy bails out too, then Sun can find its place in the Linux world. As a true open source pioneer (NFS anyone?) they know how to make the engineering happen. Let's hope they manage to pull it off.


    • I would also hate to see OpenOffice orphaned. We need this package.

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