Who Cares If Privacy Is Slipping Away? 393
IAmTheDave writes, "This morning MSNBC's home page is topped by the opening story in a series, Privacy Under Attack, But Does Anybody Care? Privacy rights have been debated to death here on Slashdot, but this article attempts to understand people's ambivalence towards the decline of privacy. The article discusses how over 60 percent of Americans — while somewhat unable to quantify what exactly privacy is and what's being lost — feel a pessimism about privacy rights and their erosion. However, a meager 6-7% polled have actually taken any steps to help preserve their privacy. The article's call to action: '...everyone has secrets they don't want everyone else to know, and it's never too late to begin a discussion about how Americans' right to privacy can be protected.'"
"Real life" (Score:5, Insightful)
Privacy issues won't arise for the general public untill it's them directly affected. They see no reason to care untill they see what happens when they don't care.
Hardly surprising (Score:5, Insightful)
Interestingly, many people just give privacy away (Score:5, Insightful)
Millions of Dead Soldiers (Score:4, Insightful)
World War II saw the deaths of millions of Americans to protect our rights and privacy from the Third Reich.
I think there have been millions of people who have died with the intent of their final efforts providing us a future were we are ensured a right to privacy.
I think the descendants, relatives & comrades of those people do, in fact, care about our ebbing privacy. But perhaps I just haven't been properly upgraded with the most recent version of our brainwashing firmware. "All power to the centralized government!" just ain't my thing.
Everybody has Secrets? (Score:5, Insightful)
In a society that codified and archives data and facts online, protection of information can only be assured via unassailable proofs, cryptographic methods and legislation to support this right. I think this is where the media has done all of us a disservice. We should / could all benefit from this issue being presented as a serious concern, otherwise we will soon find ourselves not only without any privacy, but without any means to defend it.
Re:"Real life" (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh Americans are directly affected right now. They are under constant video surveillance, their government is "legally" spying on them and their friends, and their bank records are closely watched for "terrorism". We aren't allowed to protest publically if the President is affected, we aren't allowed to voice our opinions silently "in there" without a hassle and threats of police action, and we aren't allowed to protest publically w/o the threat of being added to a FBI watchlist for "Homeland Terrorism".
So, while Americans are conditioned to believe that they are not having their privacy and freedoms infringed on, it is.
People do care about losing privacy... (Score:4, Insightful)
It's more convenient without privacy. (Score:2, Insightful)
A quote that has been rattling around in my head.. (Score:2, Insightful)
- Benjamin Franklin
My Wife (Score:5, Insightful)
She's always afraid to ask me about this stuff because I tell her the truth.
1. You have no privacy. As a result, the average individual is one step away from character assasination whether they know it or not. It's been this way for decades now.
2. Whatever privileges you had before are being taken away. When I explained to her that a Tivo doesn't allow her to "keep" stuff like a VHS tape among a host of other limitations and intrusions. (It's hers to enjoy in her home right? Today. Probably. But tomorrow?) Not to mention the more frequent, "TIVO's great but I wish I could give you a copy to watch. It was great." we get from TIVO owners.
These days, "new" things are cheaper not because they are innovative, but because they are taking features and privileges away from you. It's okay though, because it's the "Free Market" in action. It's the Will Of The People.
My question back is how is that innovative? Is the politicians promise of lower cost and greater service/features being kept? Am I any safer? Is my kid any safer?
Re:Interestingly, many people just give privacy aw (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Interestingly, many people just give privacy aw (Score:5, Insightful)
Awareness of loss of privacy is the problem, or rather lack of it. Many people naively expect people to be trustworthy, especially when it comes to things they are not aware of, or informed about. Sadly, I think it will be a hard fight to make people aware of the precarious position that their private data is in.
I think this entire trend is a problem, partly because of a trend towards less and less personal responsibility and partly out of a feeling of defeat in improving our government. People give out info because they assume the government protects them from abuse of this data (as they do in many other countries). Others, feel their information is already "out there" and while they know the government does not protect them, these are the same somewhat pessimistic people who have no faith in our government or in the ability to change it. I've heard comments like, "do they even count our votes anymore?" spoken in all seriousness. And honestly, I'm not sure that they do.
The lack of concern or privacy does not surprise me because those who trust the government, assume they are protected or don't know about the privacy problems. Those that don't trust the government are the same ones who don't trust companies with their data, and they've given up on the government.
Re:"Real life" (Score:3, Insightful)
I have been working for close to 25 years and have never accepted a position that requires more than 40hrs/week. Any company requiring you to work more, is badly managed and should be avoided at all cost.
Re:"Real life" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:"Real life" (Score:3, Insightful)
Dude, this is America. You don't "figure it out", you go out and buy a new car stereo -- or more preferrably a new car -- that has an iPod dock built in. You then go out and buy a Genuine Apple iPod(tm) to plug in. Oh, and while we're at it, they aren't "mp3s" they are "tunez", also soon to be a TM of Apple. Make sure to spend several hundred $$ on Apple's iTunes (TM) for over-processed, teeny bopper, psuedo-music.
Get it thru your head, you are NOT a citizen, you are a CONSUMER. Go consume something! Help our economy! If you don't the terrorists will win!
Re:Help Youself (Score:4, Insightful)
The author also sells them directly, and you can pay with cash. His reputation is worth more than your $20, so don't fear paying in cash.
Re:"Real life" (Score:5, Insightful)
People tend not to take on things much bigger than them. When the leading front runner for a president to replace the one we have now, is the wife of the previous president, people should smell something is rotten in Denmark. But even if they did realize that it's fishy only two or four families have a shot at governing the country of 300,000,000 people, what's one person going to do about it if they have to work 9 hours a day just to live and eat where they are?
Part of the problem (Score:3, Insightful)
But good citizens don't have secrets! As long as the discussion keeps getting entangled with this whole issue of "keeping secrets", our right to privacy will continue to be eroded.
Personally, I'm sick of hearing people say "It doesn't bother me because I have nothing to hide"... and believe me I've heard it a lot since you-know-when. That's not the point!
Privacy isn't about keeping secrets - it's about being safe from intrusion and unwarranted observation. There's nothing secret about the places I go or the things I do, but that doesn't mean I'm OK with having my activities showing up in a database or on a video monitor somewhere.
Real Life Examples (Score:5, Insightful)
I once asked my accountant about what he was going to do with the hard-drives contained in the old computers he was about to throw away. It hadn't occured to him that somebody could be digging up valuable info from what he considered scrap. It didn't take him long to realise what the risks were.
People will in time develop sensitivity and common-sense about privacy, but they first need to be thaught about the value of information. Most
Re:"Real life" (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes the things in motion do effect the citizens of the US (and others as well) but not yet to the point where it pops their little bubble of a happy world. Basically unless these violations of privacy come up and slap these people across the face HARD and knock them out of their daily grind onto their ass they're going to continue to be apathetic about it and ignore it.
Re:What's good for the goose (Score:5, Insightful)
You're not ready to share that information with the rest of us? Then you can butt the hell out of my information.
You're on the right track, but the tit-for-tat principle won't solve anything. I don't care if the president wears a web-cam-helmet 24/7 -- that still doesn't grant government the slightest moral right to spy on me. (Spying is a form of harrassment as it goes against the victim's will, i.e. an initiation of force. Does your neighbor have the right to spy on your private affairs? Why not? How is government different?)
Anything less will be settled with guns.
It already has been: everything government does and could possibly do is backed by the threat of force (yes, Virginia, that means guns). Force is the essence of government. (Government is defined as the organization holding the unique "right" to initiate force or threat thereof -- i.e. employ coercion -- as its means within a given territory; anyone else who does so is a criminal. That is the only objective, unambiguous definition of government that applies to all governments past, present, and future.)
I'm just as pissed off as you are, my friend, but it was inevitable that government would eventually reach the size (measured in both revenue and power over the people) where spying on peaceful citizens is par for the course. The Bush administration certainly wasn't the first to try to spy on peaceful citizens, but they are the latest, and being the latest means holding the reigns to the most powerful government (and world empire) that has ever existed. How could it possibly have turned out any different, given the sheer size of this government? They've got to keep spending your money in order to get even more, and this is one great way to do it.
Re:"Real life" (Score:3, Insightful)
Thanks for proving that Americans are conditioned to believe that they aren't being directly affected and that as long as the government is creepily looking "from a distance" that it doesn't matter.
If I may put it in context. (Score:5, Insightful)
First they came for the communist terrorists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist terrorist;
Then they came for the socialist terrorists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist terrorist;
Then they came for the trade unionist terrorists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist terrorist;
Then they came for the Jew terrorists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew terrorist;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
You lose your Rights piece by piece. And each loss is "justified" because, after all, you don't want to support the "enemy", do you? You don't want to be a "traitor", do you?
Fascism begins when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the Rights of the People.
Re:"Real life" (Score:2, Insightful)
Someone Explain, Please (Score:3, Insightful)
It works both ways you know (Score:3, Insightful)
Once the government understands that a glass house is transparent in both directions, perhaps they will enact laws to at least protect themselves. Eventually that will lead to a greater expansion of privacy after the inevitable revolution that will follow.
And if you're concerned about being arrested/sued for posting information about government officials, then incorporate first. Hey, other businesses can sell information about you, then as a business, you should be able to sell information about THEM.
Show them what it's like to live in their own mousetrap.
TTYL
Brian C.
Best Quote (Score:5, Insightful)
"If you have nothing to hide, please take off your clothes right now."
Guns? (Score:3, Insightful)
If your government is run by tyrants, why don't your precious militia's do something about it?
Re:Help Youself (Score:2, Insightful)
Honestly, can you envision in the next 20 years, everyone who has a garage sale, rummage sale or lists something for sale in the paper to not accept cash?
Besides, if you're that paranoid, then you REALLY need that book. It'll introduce you to things like anonymous debit cards; alternative mail delivery; registering property thru LLCs; ghost addresses and more.
Not just in computing (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:"Real life" (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't forget, as a prominent example of why Total Surveillance is WRONG, that ex-Marine and Iraq weapons Inspector Scott Ritter was speaking out about Bush's full out lying prior to the Iraqi invasion... and was raided for kiddy porn due to an FBI investigation of his internet habits.
Big fuss. Ritter was never asked back on TV again to speak. And the FBI dropped the case, no real reason given. I guess it was about the lack of evidence. Nice coincidence, tho, being monitored while he was speaking about Bush's lying.
Mission fucking accomplished. Critic disarmed and ruined, thanks to TOTAL SURVEILLANCE, CITIZENS! WE NEVER LIE OR USE THIS NEW ILLEGAL MONITORING SYSTEM FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES. NO. YOU CAN'T SUE US. WE DON'T EXIST. AND WE'RE NEVER WRONG. EVER. NOW SHUT UP, TINFOIL HAT WEARER.
Orwell? (Score:4, Insightful)
Every morning we wake up and the painting on the barn has changed and nobody can remember what it used to say.
When I read that book I was so frustrated by how stupid the animals were. How could they fall for such obvious exaggerations?
Now I'm just frustrated at the people around me. How can they fall for such obvious exaggerations?
Re:"Real life" (Score:3, Insightful)
That's exactly what I would expect. Intel-gathering, as you call it, is no longer an identifying characteristic of a threatening person. Innocent people are likely to be openly engaged in photographing public places, while the real terrorists are able to gather their photos using completely hidden cameras. So I would expect a reasonable government to focus their limited resources on more fruitful activities, such as identifying, hiding, or hardening important targets. Instead, they're effectively reducing the number of watchful eyes around some targets (like photographers--and the guards being distracted by the photographers--near chemical plants), and creating brand-new, very attractive targets (like long lines at security checkpoints, or mandatory backdoors in IT systems).
Re:"Real life" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:"Real life" (Score:3, Insightful)
You left out "one of those people who believes in the presumption of innocence"?
In isolation, taking pictures of bridges, dams, national monuments, even government buildings (which frequently have some of the neatest architecture) should not arouse enough suspicion to earn a visit from a TLA(gency). Now, if PREVIOUSLY KNOWN (or apparent at the time) causes of Reasonable Suspicion exist, I don't have a problem with a casual chat with the FBI (by which I don't mean spending 16 hours under a hot light asked the same stupid questions over and over). But just taking pictures? No. Doesn't cut it.
Re:"Real life" (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:If I may put it in context. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Someone Explain, Please (Score:3, Insightful)
``Second, the vast majority of people do something that some part of our society disapproves of. "So what?" you might ask. Well the thing is, if everything about your life is transparent, but everything about the lives of the wealthy is not necessarily transparent, how can someone who is not born wealthy ever successfully run for a major, political office? So where does that get us? In the same situation we have now except with even less chance of ever electing someone not born into the wealthy elite.''
That is assuming that, if everyone's (or at least, many people's) life is transparent, people will still care about all the somethings they disapprove of.
``Would you like to live your entire life denying your sexuality''
That's something that people do _now_. When your sexuality is common knowledge there's no point in trying to hide it. It might just be that more openness about sexuality will lessen the taboos that surround it.
Re:If I may put it in context. (Score:1, Insightful)
Because when this happens, to be against the government is to be against the state, and hence against the people. Thus, to be in opposition is to be a traitor. And *then* you know you're looking at fascism.
Re:"Real life" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:"Real life" (Score:2, Insightful)
How many of us have had our taxes screwed with now that its been outsourced? How many of us have been denied employment (actually, quite a number, many who don't know it) because of the political comments we have voiced in e-mail and in print? In a corporate hegemony, the slights and attacks come so fast and silently one simply cannot presume to know what will "get in the way of a person's daily business or leisure activities."
Re:"Real life" (Score:3, Insightful)
Honestly...yes...I am one of those people.
I really do not fear the terrorists as much as I do the govt. invading sacred US citizen privacy and taking away our rights.
While I am all for them trying to prevent terrorist attacks....I don't want it at the expense of my rights to privacy, and to travel and photograph whatever legally photographic object I feel like doing without any intervention or observation of the govt.
I feel I have more of a change of dying in a car accident, than getting harmed by a terrorist.....
I feel that if I have to give up rights I expect to 'protect' me from terrorism, then the terrorists have already won.
I notice you appear to be female. I do find that many women I know lean way more towards being so cautious as to be willing to give up your rights...to overlook govt intrusion where it has never been in the past. I see it more in the fairer sex than I do in most men I know....can you explain why? Is it the maternal instinct working do you think?
Not trying to troll, honestly.....just commenting on a trend I have been noticing for awhile, and curious about your answer....
Re:"Real life" (Score:3, Insightful)
Modern Version Re: Surveillance (Score:3, Insightful)
1) We're installing cameras in selected areas for limited purposes, eg. at street intersections to catch speeders. Don't be paranoid; we'd never link 'em up into an all-purpose surveillance system.
2) We're expanding the camera network to pedestrian areas to fight crime and, if you're in the UK, "anti-social behavio(u)r" (shudder). Don't be paranoid; it's not like we're trying to track you everywhere you go.
3) We're linking up the cameras [usatoday.com] into a region-wide surveillance system. How can you complain? You already accepted the monitoring itself, and now we're just coordinating our law-enforcement efforts among various places and agencies. It'll help us protect you better.
4) We're adding new software capabilities to the surveillance network, such as automatic license-plate reading, identification of "suspicious behavior," [foxnews.com] and cameras that bark orders [dailymail.co.uk]. What's wrong? You already agreed to be watched everywhere you go; now we're simply going to look a little more closely.
5) We, who rule you, hereby exempt ourselves from monitoring. Transparency is for our side of the glass.
Re:Guns? (Score:2, Insightful)
(from the U.S. Declaration of Independence)