Bruce Perens on UserLinux and Ubuntu 212
SDenmark writes "Ever wondered what happened to UserLinux, and how it's faring now that Ubuntu has stolen the spotlight? Linux Format has an interview with Bruce Perens, founder of UserLinux, the Open Source Initiative and Linux Standard Base. Perens discusses the impact of Ubuntu, how industry bodies are helping open source and why figureheads are important for the Free Software community."
Money talks (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Money talks (Score:2, Informative)
Plenty of Linux distributions have money behind them. Doesn't make them any better than the next. In fact, Debian works just fine for me (and has for several years now).
Re:Money talks (Score:2, Interesting)
latest version has PAM older than
that last one was the last straw for me and i proceeded to wipe that ext3 partition and load Fedora Core 5 on it.
For all it's faults atleast things work right with Fedora Core and I can compile mythtv with miniminal effort
Re:Money talks (Score:2, Insightful)
Odd. My Ubuntu didn't have any build tools installed by default. But when I installed then ("apt-get install build-essentials" or somesuch) they all worked without problem.
Re:Money talks (Score:3, Informative)
I blieve this is correct, and is also the new Debian-way of doing things. This has never prevented me from compiling anything. Perhaps you are misusing
People tend to overuse
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
many multimedia applications require
Re:Money talks (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
Like I said - I went back to my favorite distro since it works.
(I was going to use Ubuntu for a mythtv box)
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
pam_console (and therefore /etc/security/console.perms) is Red Hat specific and isn't in Debian because of security issues (apparently; I don't know/care about the specifics).
If you need /etc/ld.so.conf, uhm well, why not just create it?
What kind of problems did you have with GCC4?
Re:Money talks (Score:4, Funny)
For all it's faults atleast things work right with Fedora Core and I can compile mythtv with miniminal effort
I know! My wife said the same thing when I installed Ubuntu on my home computer. "WTF! PAM is really old! We can't let the kids use this!"
I mean really, compiling mythtv is absolutely necessary on a desktop distro. How are the newbs going to get past that? Having no ld.so.conf is definitely not userfriendly.
Re:Money talks (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
Caveat: i was using Kubuntu (another idiotic thing: a fork just for a different window manager?)
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
But, KDE is MUCH more than a WM. You might have noticed the TONS of kdelibs-based programs, the kioslaves, the kparts, etc. etc. This integration is the difference between a desktop environment and a window manager. In fact, a window manager IS PART of a DE (KDE's window manager is called KDM).
Re:Money talks (Score:3, Interesting)
Coincidentally, if you are doing development from within linux, you should use a distro you are comfortable with and actually know how its configured. Did you spend any time on ubuntuforums.org or (especially) on the irc channel asking for help? I've never come across a more nub friendly fr
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
Old PAM IS a crime when it doesn't support a feature you critically need for what you're doing.
Flame On
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
Re:Money talks (Score:5, Insightful)
i have tried over the years to convert many loved ones and friends to linux. It failed because of the "hard" factor.
Every single one of them LOVE Ubuntu and will not switch back to windows. Why? installing new software is brain dead easy... Far easier than windows and MAC os has ever been, plus they all do not care about running brand name apps but simply something that works.
The biggest thing they all love, no viruses and no spyware.
Re:Money talks (Score:3, Interesting)
It sounds like your family and friends really don't need that much in the way of software. There are a lot of people that can basically live in a browser. That's fine, but once you need to step out that repository universe, installing software bec
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
Because one of the few things all the package maintainers for distributions can agree on is that autopackage is horribly broken, and even the autopackage people themselves basically say `just use this for addons, it doesn't work for "the system"' ... where "the system" is really code for "the hard cases our broken design doesn't work
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
Basically the same thing, just a matter of preference (and sometimes one works and the other doesn't, especially if you're playing with the development version [Dapper]
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
Far easier than Windows and MAC os has ever been
Dude, you need qualify that. I use Mac OSX, Windows, and Ubuntu. Synaptic is easy if the application exists in the database. However, not all applications are distributed through Synaptic. Take, for instance, doom 3 as an example. Windows and Mac OSX iinstallation involves putting in the CD, running the installer, and following instructions. Linux, first, requires you googling "linux and Doom3" to get instructions, cut and pasting .pak files, running an inst
Not quite. (Score:2)
How do you install Camino in MacOS X?
1) Drag the Camino icon to your Applications folder!
How do you uninstall Camino in MacOS X?
1) Drag the Camino icon from your Applications folder to the trash.
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
The usual thing that happens with me on Windows or Mac OS X: I'm browsing around and find some developer's site with a new game, or I hear about some cool new program that does X, or I'm looking for a program to fill need Y - I download them and run them.
The apt-get+GUI solution: I'm browsing around and find some developer's site with a new game (but there's no version for Ubunto/myDistro, only source, or no Linux version at all), or I
Re:Money talks (Score:3, Informative)
This requires the administrator (root) password, since we don't want just anybody to be able to install software. (i.e. viruses embedded into emails)
Then, you just scroll through the categories, and the programs in them, and when you find something you might be interested in, you click on it, see the description of the software on the right side of the window, and if you like it, you put a check in the checkbox next to it.
You keep
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
More accurately, it requires the users own password, not root. Ubuntu has root disabled by default. There is, effectively, no root. You can add one if you want, though.
This interface is a dumbed-down (I don't mean that pejoratively) and much cleaner-looking version of Synaptic. The parent is correct in comparing it to the Windows add/remove programs GUI, as
Re:Money talks (Score:2)
My primary concern is how it will begin talking from the other side of the table. Case in point, intellectual property [slashdot.org]. Now, I'm no fan of the state of our patent system but this discussion was interesting because not a single person brought up the issue of legality. Now, Ballmer recently hinted [forbes.com] that Microsoft are putting together an IP war against Linux.
I work for a pretty large company so management is very conservative (side note, I do realize that those aren't mutual - its just the
OSDL Desktop Linux (Score:4, Informative)
BP:Well, some of the industry bodies try to help open source. OSDL is actually handicapped in one very important way, which is that the majority of OSDL's membership have a conflict of interest where the agenda of open source is concerned.
Re:OSDL Desktop Linux (Score:2)
Because imho Desktop Linux always had the feel of a publicity stunt/political exercise.
I got sick of all the Ubuntu hype (WOW!!!1 With Ubuntu Randy Rabbit stuff "just works"... half as good as in Fedora or SuSE 5 years ago!!~! Ubuntu is like the bestest thing evaRR!! OMGPonies!! - admittedly that got better over time - just like it did with other hyped distros like Gentoo - and *Ubuntu* got better over time so now it can live up to the hype - mostly - which in itself makes it much less annoy
Re:OSDL Desktop Linux (Score:2)
From what I've seen of Ubuntu, the hype is deserved.
First off, a friend of mine, who isn't the most computer savvy fella, was wanting to install Linux on his laptop. I had him on FreeBSD for a while, but he simply wasn't up to keeping it up to date or configuring beyond what I set up for him. I suggested he try Kubuntu, as he had been using KDE in
Figureheads? Let's do it Hollywood style (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Figureheads? Let's do it Hollywood style (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.linuxforum.com/linux_wallpapers_full/1
I can see it now. (Score:5, Funny)
Honey I Shrunk the Embedded Ubuntu.
Star Wars XV: Attack of the CentOS (Didn't this happen in Tuttle, OK?)
Miss Fedora Universe (Make the Geeks go crazy for models in Fedoras)
A Beautiful Distro (A Linspiring movie)
OK, I am done. But why not have product placement, much like Apple has done in popular culture for the past few years.
Re:Figureheads? Let's do it Hollywood style (Score:2)
What is Userlinux? (Score:5, Informative)
Every open source project should have a quick 2 line description at the top of the webpage. It shouldn't take me 6 clicks to get a BASIC description of your project.
Before you criticize, here's what I did:
"Main announcements have been moved to the UserLinux web site at http://www.userlinux.com/ [userlinux.com] . "
and
"# See http://www.userlinux.com/ [userlinux.com] and http://www.userlinux.com/about [userlinux.com] for more information. "
Great, so I click on http://www.userlinux.com/ [userlinux.com] and end up back at http://www.userlinux.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl [userlinux.com] . No luck there!
This site is parked via OpenSourceParking.com .
No-Cost Parking, only Open Source / Free Software are used.
Proceeds from advertising will go to political and promotional efforts on behalf of Open Source / Free Software.
Now, you can do some good with that parked domain!
I still have no idea what UserLinux is. And that was what, 7 clicks?
Compare this to Ubuntu.com. It took me 10 seconds to read the 2 line blurb at http://www.ubuntu.com/ [ubuntu.com]:
"Ubuntu is a complete Linux-based operating system, freely available with both community and professional support. It is developed by a large community and we invite you to participate too!
Re:What is Userlinux? (Score:4, Informative)
Not to be an ass, but what is Userlinux?
See UserLinux description on Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]. And I do agree with you, there should be a better description on Userlinux.com website. I still don't know why one would use UserLinux rather than Ubuntu.Re:What is Userlinux? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What is Userlinux? (Score:2, Interesting)
Ubuntu/Userlinux comparison from 2005 (Score:2)
Re:What is Userlinux? (Score:4, Informative)
but then I realized...
They don't even have that question on the FAQ. Wow, so yea, you're absolutely right.
Re:What is Userlinux? (Score:2, Insightful)
Somehow in science we learn to convey the key message of an article in its abstract... but apparently in OSS sometimes this is not the case. And without clear description of what is the stuff about, well... unless you've
a BASIC description (Score:2)
Try Wikipedia Next Time. (Score:3)
Lots of projects are like this (Score:2)
MANY projects lack this most basic piece of information.
UserLinux (Score:3, Interesting)
When Perens announced at the Desktop Linux conference in MA a few years ago, it sounded like a pretty half-baked idea.
Re:UserLinux (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:UserLinux (Score:2)
Re:I'm a User and I'm not impressed. (Score:2)
DVD support couldn't be included due to legal issues. Same with MP3 and some other codecs.
These two programs are scripts to install these for you. They are both GUI programs and are dead simple to use. Download, extract (they're compressed files, that you download), navigate into the extracted folder 'till you find an executable file by the name of the program (EasyUbuntu, in the case of the first one), double click it, hit "run", and it goes. Just tell i
Ubuntu...why is it so special? (Score:2)
Re: Ubuntu...why is it so special? (Score:2)
Re: Ubuntu...why is it so special? (Score:2)
Myself, I use Ubuntu for my desktop because it is easy to install, configure & upgrade. The install was painless. With Debian, I found that I spent too much time trying to get my video card working, managing packages, and searching for modern packages on 3rd party websites
Re: Ubuntu...why is it so special? (Score:2)
Like Fedora Core
Re: Ubuntu...why is it so special? (Score:2)
Re: Ubuntu...why is it so special? (Score:2)
Re: Ubuntu...why is it so special? (Score:4, Informative)
Because there are a lot of people - myself included - who have used Debian for a long time. We like it for various reasons including it's proper Free-(as in speech)-ness, the apt/dpkg package management system, the fairly hands-on approach to system configuration and all sorts of other reasons that vary from person to person. The biggest problem with Debian is that it sucks as a desktop distro because it's too out of date. Ubuntu gives those of us that are long-term Debian fans what we need on the desktop without sacrificing what we love about Debian - except, arguably, a certain level of stability since Debian stable is tested like crazy.
To put it another way, here's why I don't use a selection of other distros: Redhat - too commercial, Suse - ditto, Fedora - can't stand the package management, Mandriva - ditto, Gentoo - would rather spend my time configuring the package well rather than compiling it. I have Debian on my server and love it, and have the closest thing to Debian on my desktop.
Re: Ubuntu...why is it so special? (Score:2)
When you say RedHat too commercial and SUSE ditto I am assuming you are speaking of their Enterprise offerings. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned F
Re: Ubuntu...why is it so special? (Score:2)
Re: Ubuntu...why is it so special? (Score:2)
Ubuntu might not be "so special" for Linux veterans who are fine with compiling their own kernels and drivers and whateve
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Ubuntu...why is it so special? (Score:2)
UserLinux was never going to work (Score:5, Informative)
BRUCE: I can't tell you who I'm working for, but there's a lot of money behind this project. So, we have to be serious about this. What should we call this distro?
BOB: SuperLinux!
FRED: Enterprise-D Linux!
ELMER: CoolNIX!
BRUCE: No, no, no! You have to be serious about this! There's a lot of money behind this project. I can't tell you whose money, but we have to come up with a name for our distro that they'll like!
FRED: If they have that much money, why don't *they* pick a name?
BRUCE: I want this to be a community effort! How about 'UserLinux'?
FRED: Boring.
BOB: Generic.
ELMER: Ditto that.
BRUCE: But the community has to be serious about this! There's a lot of money behind this, and the companies that I can't name won't use Linux without a professionally named distro!
ELMER: So, this is a community effort, but the decisions will be made by fiat?
BRUCE: No, the community has to be a part of this. Now, KDE or GNOME? My clients only want GNOME. What do you think?
ELMER: That we should take this seriously because there's a lot of money behind this project from companies you can't name?
BRUCE: Exactly! So, KDE is out!
Eventually, there was a big rumble and KDE got shoved back in. I dropped the list some time after that, because it was clear that the community was meant to rubber-stamp a project that some large companies wanted to produce on the cheap.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Times change, people don't (Score:3, Insightful)
`Back in the day' when I had my first experience with Linux, you had the Red Hat Camp vs the SuSe Camp. (Real hackers used Slackware then, btw).
Then Red hat became the evil empire, people started yelling `Debian' at each other, while SuSe became something you didn't talk about.
Around then Mandrake finally made a proper installer (albeit a very limited one if you knew what you wanted) and raked in Windows users by the dozen.
Then that position was attacked by Lindows(C), which was so effective it got in trouble with Redmond itself.
In the meantime, Red Hat looked out of the Windows (pun inteded) and started to make some money. So they started Fedora to keep the free code coming (and stay somewhat compliant to the GNU GPL). And Debian went out of the picture again.
Now I'm hearing Ubuntu on all sides (still sounds like an African dictator to me, but whatever), while my work PC suddenly runs CentOS (where did that one come from?).
UserLinux? Never heard of it either, so must have been a pretty weak spotlight in the first place...
Wonder what the next `Must-have-distro' will be.
I'll make the switch when they stick to one for more than a year, until then, I'll use Windows and BSD.
Just my $0.02...
Re:Times change, people don't (Score:2)
You left out Knoppix and Gentoo from your must have super buzz distro list.
Of course the good thing is each of those distros actually brought something inovative to Linux. The only holy wars left now comes down to desktops Gnome vs KDE vs something fast and light and package systems apt-get vs emerge vs yum and or yast.
BTW if you think that only Linux has these issues you must n
Re:Times change, people don't (Score:2)
VI vs EMACS
Much to my shame I really don't like them. I use Joe for my light editing and eclipse for my development ide. I started with Turbo pascal so the wordstar command set is like an old friend.
Re:Times change, people don't (Score:3, Informative)
True, I do agree, Linux distros come and go, but the OS never really takes off. They need one Distro to rule them all, but the Linux camp is so disorganized and filled with too many individuals trying to be the hero that Linux will never be an effective replacement or competitor to Win
Re:Times change, people don't (Score:2)
Re:Times change, people don't (Score:2)
When I first started u
Re:Times change, people don't (Score:3, Funny)
Tuttle.
Cheers,
Ian
Re:Times change, people don't (Score:2)
Well, every time there's a Columbus' egg [wikipedia.org] all the other Linux distros scramble and do it. Despite what all the "one Linux desktop" people want, it's just not going to happen. Imagine that for a little while your distro of choice got a helluva lot of traction, set some groundbreaking standards and united all of Linux desktops under one banner - a rather unlikely prospect to begin with.
What's going to happen? Ten new d
Re:Times change, people don't (Score:4, Funny)
Alas, poor wretch. Then misfortune shall be thy lot.
Re:Times change, people don't (Score:2)
1) Lizard by Caldera was the first graphical installer for a major distribution.
2) Suse was still in German at that point
3) At the time Debian came out the big distributions were stuff like Yggdrasil not Redhat.
4) Suse vs. Redhat (for the US market) was not until United Linux which was in 2000 and by then everyone had an installer
5) Mandrake's cl
Re:Times change, people don't (Score:2)
You came to linux fairly late, then.
There were several distributions before slackware. In fact, more than a handful of people ran linux even before ready-to-install distributions existed.
Re:Times change, people don't (Score:2)
The first real distro I used was SLS 0.99pl13, I think. Took a while to install it, though, and I never did get X to work with my Diamond Stealth VRAM card.
I also remember distros like TAMU, Slackware Pro (Morse Telecommuni
Re:Times change, people don't (Score:2)
There's a name long forgotten. Did Yggdrasil ever actually have a working distribution? I remember them as "open source vaporware", i.e. a product that consist primarily of usenet posts. But I could be wrong.
Re:Ethnocentrism at work (Score:2)
Best (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Best (Score:2)
Re:Best (Score:2)
Re:Best (Score:2)
A wise Linux guru (Score:3, Informative)
I highly recommend http://perens.com/Articles/Economic.html [perens.com]this paper to anyone who has not read it yet. It is much more interesting than the interview itself (which is short, and, in my opinion, quite uninteresting given the experience and knowledge of Bruce Perence -- the interviewer(s) did not get as much of him as they could have).
The article is quite long, but very well researched, and definitely worth spending some time on it.
Cheers,
j.
Re:A wise Linux guru (Score:2)
Holy misleading excerpt, Batman! (Score:4, Insightful)
In any event, the writer should consider himself chastized. Excerpts like that are only useful if they give you an idea of what the article is about, and in this case it says (when taken out of context and then edited) something totally different than what the person who said those words meant.
Doomed to failure (Score:2)
Stock (Score:2)
As far as Canonical is concerned, one thing that struck me about Mark is that he really insists on control. For example, when I considered being an employee one of the things standing in the way was the fact that Mark doesn't give his employees stock in his companies. If I'm going to work for someone I'm going to be a little entrepreneurial about it, so I felt that although Ubuntu and Canonical could do a great deal for Debian and be excellent community members, they were never going to be the co
What about good ol' Knoppix? (Score:2)
Why is Ubuntu such a big thing in comparison?
UserLInux was a step on the way to a great distro (Score:2, Informative)
Ubuntu has taken over on my desktop because of better USB integration. Ubuntu handles my USB scanner, printer and camera and UserLinux doesn't.
UserLinux made the extraordinary Debian software and package environment accessible without the without the inadvertent and uncontrolled negative Gurella marketing presence that has undermined the mainline Debian distribution.
I'll tell you a UserLinux story:
Back in the days w
Re:Ubuntu (Score:2)
Annoying isn't it. You must work for Novell?
Re:Ubuntu is not quite ready for prime time (IMO) (Score:2)
Re:Ubuntu is not quite ready for prime time (IMO) (Score:2)
First, the support for USB devices is spotty
USB is spotty in ANY os. I think Ubuntu would be perfect for the n00b - the install cd includes browser, mail, picture viewer etc & lack of vulner
Re:Ubuntu is not quite ready for prime time (IMO) (Score:2)
USB is spotty in ANY os.
Thats is wrong. USB has been pretty well understood with Windows and Mac OSX. Every device has a unique identifier that OS uses to match it with the appropriate driver. The OS identifies the vendor and the device just from that. All you need in those OSes is the appropriate driver and it will just work. An examples is 3com's 802.11g wireless USB dongle. 3com only supports Windows. Windows recognizes the device and uses the appropriate driver provided with CD. If I try to use a diff
Re:Ubuntu is not quite ready for prime time (IMO) (Score:2)
Re:IMHO, Linux is just a mess. (Score:2)
It's only a mess if you're the kind of person who can't resist the siren call of "something other than what works for me, currently." Fortunately, this doesn't include the bulk of the human race.
Re:IMHO, Linux is just a mess. (Score:2)
SPARCworks C Compiler 2.0.1, 3.0.1,..,4.0,5.0
Sun Forte WorkShop 6.1,,6.2a,6.2
Sun ONE Studio 8
Sun Studio 9
Sun Studio 10
Sun Studio 11
gcc versions ???
Intel, Sparc32, Sparc64
different versions? Who is counting?
Re:IMHO, Linux is just a mess. (Score:2)