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Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

I think the point of dispute is between one aspect of the Yishuv government (the use of terror against the British) and the total proto-government that became Israel. The Yishuv used terrorism along with public pressure to counter the growing resistance to Jewish immigration from Arab states. It is equally if not more true that Israel would not have existed in 1948 without the citrus boom of the late 1920s. So one could equally say using your definition, "Israel was founded on the citrus boom". One could just as easily say "Israel was founded on Arab resistance to Jewish immigration" since that's equally as much a cause.

That's why I think the analogy is Jane's wardrobe not an individual dress. Terrorism was just a small part of what founded Israel. Sure remove terrorism and possibly the date is pushed back. But who knows maybe without terrorism the British don't feel like they are losing face, like the Yishuv more and get out sooner so they can focus on places like India and Iran.

The statement about terrorism is simply too misleading to take a minor cause and elevate it to that extent. I agree with you that terror is what sealed the deal and that likely without Israel likely is founded later. But the main causes are things like the Jews excellent organization in Agriculture, the Hebrew language movement, the Holocaust...

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

There wasn't just a little bit or organization there was, especially leading up to WWII a proto-state. That's why the Jews were able to fight a war because the proto-state existed. The Jewish community in Philadelphia might be able to throw some nice parades but they couldn't fight a war. Obviously as you go back further in time the Yishuv becomes more like a tribal authority and less like a proto-government. But I'd say that by the early 1920s you clearly have something which is acting in the capacity of at least local government in most areas where Jews are concentrated

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

I think we are having a linguistic dispute. I wouldn't object to a statement like "Israel wouldn't not have been founded in 1948 without terrorism". I would object to "Israel was founded on terrorism". That's a much broader statement.

"Jane would not have acquired that dress on Tuesday without shoplifting". Is not remotely similar to
"Jane's entire wardrobe is based on what she can shoplift".

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

The Yishuv's weren't a full state yet but they were tribal authorities that administered local law. Its primary function was territory planning: land acquisition and agricultural settlement. That's a de-facto if not de-jure government function.

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

The Yishuv had wider popular support within Palestine. That was the point of the comparison it was a popular government with the people it governed.

As for the Holocaust... its unclear what would have happened without it. Nationalism in Eastern Europe was still picking up. Without the holocaust there might have been waves of immigration more similar to what Israel experienced from Arab countries and then later Latin America and Eastern Europe in the 1990s.

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

First off a vital component and founded upon are different levels. As I mentioned the founding of the State or Israel was far more dependent on clearing swamp to establish farms than terrorism.

But even if we grant the confusion The Yishuv was quite successful. The terrorism ended an unprofitable British occupation. The British were unlikely to stay much beyond the early 1950s regardless. I don't know whether the British would have eventually been indifferent to Jewish immigration as Arab nationalism became more powerful or not. Alternative history is a complicated thing.

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 3, Informative) 441

One more thing I forgot to say. The Jewish reaction to the Holocaust was not to get a few lawyers together and work for a better United Nations. Rather it was to start the process of galvanizing support among the remaining European Jews for Zionism. The reaction was not the Geneva Convention to protect Jews. Jews had seen international conventions protecting them be ignored many times over the last 1900 years. Rather the reaction was to form a Jewish army and stop being a stateless minority. The mass migration to Palestine had the support of European Jewry after WWII.

And to a great extent the success of the Zionist project then caused a nationalist surge in the other major bodies of Jews. The mainstream Jewish political philosophy of a century ago looks nothing like it does today. Circumstances changed ideology.

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 2, Informative) 441

When I grew up, people used to say, "How could the world stand by silently when Jews were being killed?"

I gave you the facts regarding the Holocaust comparison. You are simply ignoring them and responding with "bad stuff happened in both places". The Warsaw ghetto was part of a program that was almost uniquely bad. The Palestinians in Gaza are experiencing losing wars and on the scale of what happens to people who start wars with superior powers is rather humane. Both things are bad. But you simply lack any ability to make moral arguments when you sit there and lie about the facts via. making a comparison which is wholly inaccurate for shock value. If you have read about the holocaust you wouldn't be making the comparison.

As for the world, the world didn't stand by silently when the Jews were destroyed. The world protested mildly. The world wasn't going to do much about it but they certainly were willing to tsk-tsk Hitler and the Nazis over it. Which is the same thing that happens other minorities are destroyed.
The world tsk-tsked over Tibet.
The world tsk-tsked over the Guatemalan civil war.
The world tsk-tsks over North Korea.
The world tsk-tsked over East Timor.
and so on again and again and again.
Your little vow to never let it happen again to anyone was a total failure. But of course you don't give a crap about the victims or you would be focusing on things like North Korea. The issue is the perpetrators. It offends your moral sensibility to learn that when Judaism decided to stop being the ghost of Judea and return to being a living breathing nation it went back to farting, having bad breath and sneezing. "Oh it was so much more refined as a ghost". Nations are born in blood. Get over it. Israel will do what any nation does when its existence is threatened. Israel is not going to allow the Palestinians to establish a hostile state.

I've been to Israel. The Palestinians could make great Israelis. But they didn't go down the path of integration and instead have gone down the path of a century long struggle against the Jews losing war after war after war. After 1936-9 they should have just accepted defeat and admitted the new society arising in mandate Palestine was going to be Israel not Palestine and become part of it, the same way my great grandparents became part of America. But instead they keep fighting pointless in the name of their dead society. I don't like that they are destroying themselves by putting their hand and then arm over and over and over again into the blades of a lawnmower believing that somehow they will convince the lawnmower to give up. But I don't blame the lawnmower. The Greeks knew that the elpis (expectation of help from Zeus) was the worst of all tragedy to befall men. The Palestinians unfortunately believe that their situation will change magically rather than accepting that if they want to live in the Palestinian territory they will need to do so as Israelis.

I don't think Gaza declared a state of war,

Electing a party whose primary platform is "armed resistance" and then immediately engaging in it. Again you really need to work on your honesty.

I saw the Israelis brag about the inadequate food they were supplying

This is a lie. Israel restricts dual usage materials. Almost all usage is not dual usage.

After WWII, a movement of international lawyers -- led in large part by Jewish lawyers, motivated by the example of the Nazi crimes -- wrote a body of law to make these activities illegal. Those were codified in the Geneva Conventions and other international laws.

First off by definition a law requires an enforcing power. If a power is unable to enforce it has opinions it doesn’t make law.

Second your history is wrong. International agreements on peace became popular in response to the death toll in the Napoleonic wars. WWII’s death toll certainly shocked people but the 4th Geneva convention is not fundamentally different than the ones that went before it and before WWII in most respect.

Even the Israeli government's own lawyers, such as Theodor Meron, their chief legal counsel in 1967, said then and now that the settlements are illegal. Even the U.S. State Department considers them illegal.

They were illegal under Israeli law in 1967. They became Israeli policy in the early 1970s and thus became legal. The enforcing power changed its mind. The US State department considers them unhelpful not illegal. It has consistently refused to consider them illegal. Again you are making up facts.

What's your excuse for the Israelis? How do you explain it away?

My excuse for the Israelis? I thought you were an advocate for the Geneva convention which holds that people aren’t collectively guilty for the acts of individuals? Interesting so collective guilt should apply to Jews but not to Palestinians.

Of course the Israeli society is collectively oppressing the Palestinians because the Palestinians are collectively engaging in terrorism agains the Jews. My excuse is that Palestinians need to start obeying the laws of the country they live in. The Israelis do lots of bad things. But bad stuff happens to criminals everywhere. It is impossible to separate the Israeli behavior from the context of continuous criminality on the part of the Palestinians.

If the Palestinians want violent oppression to stop, they need to agree to create a context in which violent oppression is not a vital function of the state. And that means they need to genuinely come to terms with existence of Israel. The Palestinians prefer delusion to reality, because the reality that their nation died in 1936-9 is too hard to bear. They aren’t going to come to terms with the fact that they are an Israeli ethnicity and not a nation as long as people like you feed their delusions that the world will step in and resurrect Palestine from the dead. My excuse for the Israelis is that people like you create the violence by feeding Palestinian delusions.

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

The blockade is a response to a coup by a government with a declared policy of not respecting the border with Israel. The original claim was that the Palestinians wanted peace but the settlement enterprise... Gaza shows that's not true. With no settlement enterprise they still refuse to just live in Gaza.

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 2) 441

It reminds a lot of Jews, including me, of the Warsaw Ghetto.

Between 1940 when it was established and mid-1942 when the uprising started the 1,125 calories a day allocation caused over 1/5th of the population of the Warsaw Ghetto to starve to death. When the first uprising happened the Germans killed another 10% of the population within 3 months are exported the remaining population to death camps.

In Gaza the death toll from multiple uprisings is around 1/4%. The starvation is not remotely similar. It is an obscenity to compare the Warsaw Ghetto to If you are a Jew, you ought to be ashamed of yourself for saying something like that.

Gaza is surrounded on all sides by a blockade which doesn't allow them to import or export any significant goods, or leave and come back to a university, for example.

Gaza has declared a state of war. The parent asserted that the Palestinians were interested in peace but the settlement enterprise prevented it. Gaza has no settlement enterprise.

If that's true, then logically, the Israeli government is responsible for the illegal land grabs and killings by the settlers [in the West Bank], for example

I don't know how something that the operating government permits can be "illegal" but of course the Israeli government is responsible for the settlement enterprise. The population of Israel are the ones doing it. Israeli infrastructure connects to it. Israel subsidies it. The Israeli army protects it. Who should be responsible the Martians?

Israel would also be responsible for the illegal killings of civilians during the Gaza wars, including the "white flag" incidents where Israeli soldiers killed Palestinians, including children, who came out carrying a white flag as ordered (documented in the Goldstone report)

Assuming this happened, which soldiers did it? To prosecute someone you need to prove their guilt. Some people tossed rocks and molotov cocktails at police during the St. Louis riots most weren't prosecuted because we don't know who did it.

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

Certainly ISIS terrorism (violence against civilians in conquered areas) is one of their primary means of establishing control, while the Yishuv had wider popular support. But given all their other activities I wouldn't say ISIS is just terrorism either.

Comment Re:Apartheid (Score 1) 441

So what? If Israel allowed the West Bank Palestinians to vote on whether to leave or not, then they would be willing to live in peace? Is that what you are saying? Doesn't Gaza and the problems Israel had in the 50s-70s with Palestinians in foreign countries disprove that?

"Oh my! An `inflammatory attitude' in alt.flame? Never heard of such a thing..." -- Allen Gwinn, allen@sulaco.Sigma.COM