How Open Source is Faring in Retail 259
SilentBob4 writes to tell us MadPenguin is running the first of two articles taking a look at the 'world of retail as Tux is experiencing it'. From the article: "Of the stores we visited, only Linspire Linux was sold pre-installed on computers in-store. Those FOSS boxes were often among the store's best volume sellers, primarily because they were the cheapest, according to store staff. The staff believed, based on conversations with frequent customers, that most customers were buying the boxes to install Windows on them. But that is not surprising to us, because, as we discuss in section two, brick-and-mortar "computer" stores are still part of the Microsoft distribution chain. The fact that there were some open source products at all in these stores is actually surprising, as Microsoft guards its distribution chain jealously, and punishes those business partners who stray into carrying FOSS products."
Surprised? (Score:3, Interesting)
And if they sold systems with no OS, they'd sell like hotcakes. Take your pick: pirates or people sick of buying an XP license each time they want to upgrade to a new machine without the trouble of buying it part-by-part?
Exactly (Score:3, Insightful)
Then again, im not really shocked. I think to some degree people view pirating an OS or pirating from Microsoft in general as a lesser form of pirating.
Re:Exactly (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Exactly (Score:5, Informative)
OEM operating system licences live and die with each pc - they are not transferable
http://www.microsoft.com/uk/windows/licensing/howt ouse.mspx [microsoft.com]
Re:Exactly (Score:2, Informative)
Now it's not a new computer, I just replaced some worn out (and now broken, due to some strange lack of jumpers) parts in my old PC.
Just because Microsoft says you can't do something doesn't mean they're right.
Re:Exactly (Score:2)
The viability of EULAs and "pack-in" licences has never REALLY been tested in court, there is little case law on the subject. But existing case law seems to rule against them on numerous grounds, the chief three being:
1) Agreeing to a contract normally requires ACTIVE consent, and "pack-in licences" or practically non-optional licences like those of OEM computers only offer "implied consent" (the user consents to the contract by using the item).
2) Contracts are required to be in understandable
Maybe (Score:2)
Kind of crappy if you ask me.
Re:Maybe (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Maybe (Score:3, Informative)
So you will accept as legal contract
which I
Re:Maybe (Score:3, Informative)
the first is the one you mention: it's delivered after-the-fact. you've already bought the s/w, and a lot of stores won't take open boxes back, so it's a major headache if you don't agree with the terms.
You don't BUY the software. You pay money in order to enter a contract with the owner of that software. By paying money, you have acknowledged that you accept the terms of the contract, whatever
Re:Maybe (Score:2)
"Yes, you can enter into a contract to not move the software to another computer (and using an OEM version of Windows is absolutely considered entering into such a contract.) Yes, it is legal."
The legality of is questionable under the "first sale" doctrine.
Think about. Is it legal to say that you can not use the hard drive from one computer in another computer? You got that hard drive at a discount compared to buying it as a single part. The RAM, Power cord? When you buy an item it is reasonable to assume t
Re:Maybe (Score:2)
Re:Exactly (Score:2)
Re:Exactly (Score:2)
I personally just call it fair use - I owned two legal copies of XP up until last week (where I sold an old laptop on eBay incl. license, so now it's just one from a fairly old dell system). I only interact with one main computer on a regular basis. My fileserver is running XP simply because a) I know it'll share over the network properly with other comps and b) I couldn't be bothered to download
Re:Surprised? (Score:2, Informative)
There's a very good reason why so many manufacterers "recommend Windows XP" for using their products.
Re:Surprised? (Score:2)
I doubt it. Anyone capable of installing an OS is probably capable of finding a computer store that will sell you a blank box. (example [novatech.co.uk]) Besides that, with a blank box, you won't get support, so that rules it out as an option for many people, and MS may just have a problem with their retailers selling other OSs preinstalled.
Someone who knows what they're doing with a pc won't buy it from PC World (or local equivalent).
Re:Surprised? (Score:2)
In your dreams.
The PC had been sold as a plug and play home appliance and office machine for over twenty-five years.
The OS free system is for the institutional buyer and the Geek. It is not mass-market.
wow... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:wow... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:wow... (Score:2, Informative)
Nuff said.
Re:wow... (Score:4, Interesting)
Anyway, It doesnt really help around, no one will keep the Linux OS, unless they find someone who has it too (so they can share something, at least get some questions answered), they will wipe it out and install a pirate Windows as soon as the kids neighbor brings he's last game, or dad comes with his compay soft. Thats the ugly truth on pre-installed soft, at least here.
Here in Argentina almost all of the electrodomestics and supermarkets chains that commercialise PCs have Linux pre-installed, there is even a local Linux company selling Linux Distributions to these chains (the distribution has much the ways as Linspire, they DO NOT SHARE what they build, they only (ab)use GPL'ed software and build around propietary configuration apps, and give support for the distribution to the final user), this company even implemented a License KEY, just like Windows, so you dont copy the ISO... Which is quite depressing.
Most of the employees tell them to get a technician, format the drive and install a pirate windows, even some of them go do the work as an extra influx of money.
I just think that this kind of things give Linux a bad reputation, they make people believe that its trash and that 'nothing works', so you have to go to windows, which of course they dont pay, because if they actually had to put 1 buck for it, there we would see some massive migrations to Linux.
Re:wow... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:wow... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not. I'm starting to get tired of cult of victimization. Microsoft may be a 500 point gorilla, but it is a 500 pound gorilla that can't take your money without your permission. Since the days of the first IBM PC there have been alternative systems. Some of them, like the Mac, are even household words.
Whiner: "Microsoft doesn't give me any choice"
Realist: "Get a Mac"
Whiner: "But you can't build a Mac yourself"
Realist: "So go build a PC *without* Microsoft!"
Whiner: "But Macs are more exp
Re:wow... (Score:2)
Re:wow... (Score:2)
But it's false marketshare. I'm a little disheartened with this attitude that, "As long as it looks like more people are using Linux, it's all good."
Then again, I suppose perception is reality...
Re:wow... (Score:2)
True, but given the freely downloadable, installable on multiple systems off one disk nature of Linux, I would think any other marketshare numbers are already low.
I'm a little disheartened with this attitude that, "As long as it looks like more people are using Linux, it's all good."
True again, or at least I agree with you
Then again, I suppose perception is reality..
That's OK (Score:4, Funny)
I hereby grant my unused Windows Licenses to Linspire "customers."
Re:That's OK (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:That's OK (Score:4, Insightful)
Because sometimes, the price to the consumer winds up actually being cheaper even with the cost of the "Microsoft tax." That's because larger suppliers can get better deals at every point of the supply chain. The extra money for Windows doesn't necessarily wipe out that advantage.
Re:That's OK (Score:2)
MS punishing for FOSS? (Score:5, Informative)
At all three places we talked openly to MS reps about offering Linux to keep prices down. At one of the OEMs we went from all MS to about 20% Linux in the space of a year. Not once did any of that hurt our relationship with them. This sounds like a bunch of FUD to me.
Re:MS punishing for FOSS? (Score:5, Interesting)
For example, when Sony first came out with transistor radios, which were disruptive of RCA's big desktop radios, none of RCA's channel partners would carry Sony's transistor radio "toys for teenagers", which were considered by RCA's best customers, adults who wanted high sound quality, to be crap. Instead, Macy's picked up the transistors, and Sony grew its distribution chain from there. RCA is now a shadow of its former self, because it couldn't figure out how to get transistors into its "best products". Microsoft can't figure out how to monetize the production of open source code, and THAT is the key nature of the challenge that Microsoft is facing. THAT is the point of my story. The distribution channels are changing. This story just documents one key little step in the the change, as Microsoft's distribution channels slowly take on the disruptive products from open source challengers.
Re:MS punishing for FOSS? (Score:2)
RCA had one and only one priority in the fifties and sixties: Television.
Re:MS punishing for FOSS? (Score:2)
Re:MS punishing for FOSS? (Score:2)
Retail outlets all charge the same price for XP so, can't see how it would matter to them.
Re:MS punishing for FOSS? (Score:2)
Unless it should somehow infringe on Microsoft's shelf space, of course...
It's too bad you didn't actually say anything beyond talking shit. That seems to be typical for Microsoft employees on slashdot. They get all defensive.
Re:MS punishing for FOSS? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:MS punishing for FOSS? (Score:2)
Punish? (Score:4, Insightful)
And the source for this little gem is what? Do you suppose the DOJ would be interested if it were true? Do you suppose that MS' competitors would be screaming if it were true? Do you suppose that with the size of MS' market, the number of retailers and speed of the internet, if this were true it would be on the front page of the New York Times, Washington Post and Wall Street Journal?
Re:Punish? (Score:2)
Um...yeah, I'll get right on that.
The author seems to miss the point that half the FOSS solution is the "F" part, and that "F" doesn't involve paying a premium to pick up the crappy computers shilled by your local big box.
Re:Punish? (Score:2)
Re:Punish? (Score:2, Informative)
And the source for this little gem is what? Do you suppose the DOJ would be interested if it were true?
If you read the article closely, you will see that the source spoke to me on condition of anonymity. The source is someone who works in retail tech, and knows whereof he / she speaks.
The point is that people are so afraid of the ramifications of giving quotes like this
Re:Punish? (Score:2)
Re:Punish? (Score:2)
The news media will just have to learn to do a little investigative reporting, or else get some more courageous informants.
Re:Punish? (Score:2)
Crediting your information (in the article) to "
Using an anonymous source is bad enough. Fai
Re:Punish? (Score:2, Informative)
Mainstream news media do this all the time, and I'll bet you don't question it. The news media would loose its ability to challenge the powerful without anonymous informants. In thi
Re:Punish? (Score:2)
A bet you would lose.
Yes, court proven punishment. (Score:3, Interesting)
See here [slashdot.org] for original story of the "delicate dance" vendors are expected to perform.
Arg, formating and active server pages suck. (Score:2)
http://web.archive.org/web/20020321092752/http:/ /www.eweek.com/article/0,3658,s=1884&a=24242,00.as p [eweek.com]
http://www.eweek.com/article/0,3658,s=1884&a=24242 ,00.asp [archive.org]">link
Re:Punish? (Score:2)
Re:Punish? (Score:2)
My latest system has a DFI LanParty SLI-DR Expert motherboard.
It has 2 gigabit ethernet adapters built in. Windows only supports one of them. Linux supports both.
It has 2 different SATA RAID chipsets. Windows supports only the SATA1 it fails to support the SATA2. Linux supports both.
All of it was supported
Re:Punish? (Score:2)
Re:Punish? (Score:3, Insightful)
You didn't really believe the orignal DOJ case was all about the consumer did you? The case came about through the efforts of competitors and once they received their money no further action was needed or taken. Business as u
Remember 1998? (Score:3, Insightful)
You don't need fancy sociology about "disruptive technology" to explain why Linux distros do or don't have prominent in-store displays. If the makers write their checks to the store, they get their displays; otherwise, they don't.
Re:Remember 1998? (Score:2)
When I go into a CompUSA in Chicago I see plenty of Novell SUSE boxes on the shelves. And I usually see a person or two checking them out. You'll most likely never see anybody checking out Windows XP (Pro or other wise), since they most likely have it installed on their PC already.
Re:Remember 1998? (Score:2, Interesting)
I work at CompUSA, and we have Linspire, SUSE, and Xandros right next to Microsoft's paid displays. I'd go so far as to say that their numbers aren't terribly unbalanced, either. Considering the fact that Microsoft pays for approximately 75% of the space in that aisle, I find it rather interesting that no version of Windows XP represented in that aisle outnumbers each Linux product by more than a 2:1 ratio.
As for the lack of experience, yes, I'll certainly agree with that. However, I, personally, tried fo
Re:Remember 1998? (Score:2)
Easily amused (Score:2)
This guy needs to get out more. I would have thought 'amusingly' to be enough overstatement but, 'hilariously?'
Re:Easily amused (Score:2)
Considering the fact that he used the word twice in one sentance, I've got a crisp $5 bill that says it was on his word-of-the-day calendar.
customer support needs to be there first... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:customer support needs to be there first... (Score:3, Insightful)
i think a big problem is a lack of people who could answer any questions on these machines
That and a lack of hardware quality. I non-technical friend of mine, a certified, card carrying Microsoft hater, bought a Linspire box from Fry's. The first thing he did was try to get a printer to work. He spent hours doing that, then finally took it back to the store. Turns out there was a hardware problem. So if time is worth anything, the Linspire became quite a bit more expensive than the $180 he spent for it.
I
Check MicroCenter (Score:2, Interesting)
From a slightly different angle... (Score:5, Informative)
In the UK, the PC World [pcworld.co.uk] chain is the main purveyor of PCs at retail. It, err...well. How shall we put this? It doesn't have the greatest reputation for knowledgeable staff and customer service. Alternative names I've heard for it are PC Woe and The Purple Temple Of Sadness (which is the best term I've heard for the place).
As you'd expect, it pushes cheap* PCs and whilst the odd Mac sits at the back somewhere, it's pretty much a Windows-only place, happily pushing Microsoft Anything and Norton at people.
It came as a surprise then, when I needed to grab a router right that moment and so went in, to find internal stock lists and part numbers getting checked using OpenOffice spreadsheets. Interested, I had a word with the guy doing the check and he said OpenOffice was used throughout the store.
I'm not certain as to whether he meant just that store or the entire chain, but it was interesting to see OpenOffice having taken over a shop so strongly identified with WinTel and Microsoft-only solutions.
Cheers,
Ian
*Not that I have anything against cheap PCs - all depends on people's needs really.
Re:From a slightly different angle... (Score:2)
Jaycar [jaycar.com.au] use linux to access their stock control system at the point of sale. Strange that their website uses ASP, though.
Re:From a slightly different angle... (Score:3, Insightful)
in a business environment you don't have time for brand loyalty when your competitor is shaving $0.03 every transaction cost by going with the best deal regardless of brand.
I misinterpreted the title too (Score:2)
Re:From a slightly different angle... (Score:2)
Ah, so you guys do have Fry's Electronics!
So,,, what's the problem here? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not all Microsoft's fault (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's not all Microsoft's fault (Score:2, Informative)
blatant contradiction detected. (Score:2)
with XP I hardly ever experience a full OS crash and I leave my system up for weeks at a time.
Then:
my firefox install, which has been crashing quite frequently recently.
So which is it? XP stays up for weeks or crashes frequently?
if I were to try to switch the rest of my family over it would be a nightmare.
Let's shell over to the wife's box. Hmm, uptime 121 days. She sits there emailing and chatting with her web friends way more then she should.
Let's shell over to the 4 year old
Re:blatant contradiction detected. (Score:2)
Re:It's not all Microsoft's fault (Score:2)
I want to experiment with stuff and Microsoft licensing terms are not amenable to hobbyists and explorers. (I saw recently that they require a new license for an upgraded motherboard. Sheesh. Sometimes I think they forget whose machine it is.) Well it's their right, but I've chosen to not use Windows unless someone is paying for my time, and I'm unable to figure a way to use my Mac instead. Now when I build or re-purpose computers, in other words, have fun, I put FreeBSD or Linux on them because these are
Re:It's not all Microsoft's fault (Score:2)
Good for them! (Score:2)
I would imagine that this Linspire is profiting on these units. Linspire has provided financial support to a wide variety of projects which is a good thing.
If sales are as good as this article makes out -- it would stand to reason that these retails (And others) would be more open to stocking additional models (perhaps higher end) and provide some add
Where can I get one? (Score:2)
Re:Where can I get one? (Score:2)
Wal-Mart is FOSS's Friend (Score:3, Insightful)
Wal-Mart will go to any means to sell a computer $0.99 cheaper than the guy down the street. They will lead a FOSS retail revolution, if the right distro can be pulled together.
Like laws and sausages, retail computer marketing is not pretty.
I could have sworn... (Score:2)
It's been a long day.
Installing Windows on them? (Score:2, Insightful)
Have the people who think this ever tried to do a Windows install on a computer that didnt have it pre installed? If they think Linux is hard to install they have no idea the problems they will run into. Where are they going to get the drivers? That modem, sound card, and video card will most likely not work right if at all. How are they going to get the drivers with n
Umm... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:That is a shocker (Score:2)
Re:That is a shocker (Score:2, Insightful)
Who, exactly, is forcing you to buy hardware with Windows installed on it?
If you really want to buy your systems complete, Dell sells Linux systems or systems with no OS.
Re:That is a shocker (Score:2, Informative)
Re:That is a shocker (Score:2)
(most|all) of those tablet PCs you see out there exist because MS pushed their Tablet PC software.
Tablet PCs are useful because of their software. So, if MS is going to charge $200 for their software, so what? I know... you'd want it for free...
Re:That is a shocker (Score:2, Informative)
This is a good place to start. http://techbuilder.org/recipes/163101045 [techbuilder.org]
Re:That is a shocker (Score:5, Informative)
Maybe now you can after this poor dude, David Zamos, tried to sell his copy [clevescene.com], and faced the wrath of Microsoft's lawyers. But David fought back. An amazing and sad story, IMHO, how big corps expect us pee-on consumers' to just roll over.
Re:Ridiculous argument (Score:2, Interesting)
I know microsoft got into trouble a few year ago for charging PC distributers for a copy of Windows (Or DOS maybe, oh shit I feel old) even when they requested a different OS preinstalled. Several years later they were fined and told to stop but they appear to have just found a more subtle way of achieving the same result
Re:Ridiculous argument (Score:2)
Microsoft also agreed to never use a per-processor pricing model. And yet, Windows NT Workstation can't seem to use more than two...
Re:great 'business' model (Score:2)
No, actually Dell selling Windows preinstalled is spoiling the Linux numbers because many Dell and other computers end up running Linux, in far greater numbers than Windows gets installed over Linux.
I am personally responsible for +2 Linux and -2 Windows in the OS count, and I am about to "upgrade" one more computer.
Re:great 'business' model (Score:2)
Re:great 'business' model (Score:2)
Re:Who cares? Software in boxes is obsolete. (Score:2)
Re:Who cares? Software in boxes is obsolete. (Score:2)
2nd, if you have a 50% failure rate on burned ISOs your CD-writer is crap, you are using sub-par CD media or you are burning at too high of a rate. With my cheapo CD burner I get around 5%
Re:I wonder... (Score:5, Insightful)
I suspect that, years after Vista is released, you will still find a BUNCH of machines running XP.
One thing I have noticed is the maturity -> longevity effect for computer hardware and software. Years ago, the rapid pace of hardware development and the commensurate evolution of end-user software meant that a three-year-old box was not just NOMINALLY obsolete, it was obsolete IN FACT. New hardware peripherals and (above all) new applications could effectively not be used on systems just a couple of years old.
Nowadays, however, even though an Intel or AMD processor-based system from four years ago might have rings run around it by current stuff, the old systems are still very serviceable and can run almost any software you car to install short of the latest games. And they can be upgraded enough (e.g. video card) where even the "gaming barrier" can be negotiated in large part.
I suspect that a brand new AMD64 X2 processor-based system of today will stil be VERY useable eight years from now despite the advent of Vista or any other software technology. They're just not really coming up with very many "new things" to do with a PC (look at MS Excel 2003, for example. Does it REALLY look or work that differently from a Windows-based Excel spreadsheet from ten years ago?)
And FWIW, you can ALWAYS take an obsolete box, install the latest Linux distro onto it, and breathe new life back into that puppy like you wouldn't believe.
People are keeping their automobiles longer now, and I'm sure that's coming to be the same for PC systems.
Re:I wonder... (Score:2)
Yep, processor speed isn't increasing as fast as before, so people have less reason to upgrad
Re:I wonder... (Score:3, Insightful)
This assumes there is no fundamental change in how a PC is used.
Vista for the home is a media center oriented OS and specifically an HD-media oriented OS. Audio and video. In 2006 that is marketable, in 2009, and beyond, that may be essential.
Re:I wonder... (Score:2)
At work, we regularly take a look at the number of people using certain browser/OS combinations on our web site, just to see what we need to keep supporting for our compatibility tests. It's surprising how many people remain on Win98/IE5. Sure, they're not the
Re:better than some bare bones systems (Score:2)
Windows 98SE. It installed just fine on my wifes new 256M/64bit Intel (dual-boot OpenSuSE10). With the all the Win98 updates installed, its reliable and super-fast. The bonus is that you don't have to call Microsoft and prove your not a thief. She stays in SuSE most of the time but occasionally has to boot to Windows to use our Lexmark scanner.
Enjoy,
Re:morans (Score:2)