U.S. Plans Targeted Draft for Computer Personnel 1212
waytoomuchcoffee writes "The US Selective Service System is drawing up plans for a 'special skills draft'. There is already a system in place to draft health care personnel, and this system would be expanded in order to 'rapidly register and draft' computer specialists."
sure, why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
There are worse things, I guess (Score:5, Insightful)
Move along, nothing to see here. (Score:5, Insightful)
The draft in its present form is also very unconstitutional because it discrimates between men and women. In this day and age, that makes it a political untouchable. To require women to register will spark protests, but to not require them to do so would lead to court injunctions halting the draft process.
Congresspeople also have learned something from the Vietnam war. If a war is so unpopular that we are out of "weekend warrior" reserves and we can't convince people to join on their own, as a politician you should be voting to force a withdrawl rather allow the war to continue. To be depleted to the point that a draft is needed in modern times is a sign that we've already lost and just can't admit it.
The only people in Congress who called for a draft during recent years have been those who oppose the president's military plans. By rolling out a draft, or even raising the possiblity of a draft, a war effort suddenly becomes less popular.
Bottom line... the Selective Service exists only as a tool to be used in a doomsday situation, just like all of the city fallout shelters that were built in the USA during the cold war to be prepared for a nuclear bomb that never came. I'd consider anything new we hear from the Selective Service to be a rarely-used bureaucracy trying to justify its existance because in tight budgets, cutting the Selective Service's staff is always a low-pain cut.
Related Question: Benefits of Voluntary Service (Score:4, Insightful)
What's a guy make with a freshly-minted bachellaureate in computer science make, working for the military? Where do most of them end up, both in geographical and task-related terms? How much control over where they put you does a new officer have?
Oh, great.... (Score:4, Insightful)
So, it is stuff like this that is going to make anonymity much more important than it is now. The problem of course is that unless you are completely disenfranchised from society your academic records are known, any published writing you have is known, your credit rating is known (believe it or not, certain government agencies look very carefully at your credit rating when recruiting you), and "virtual" persona are relatively easy to correlate with specific persons (all of you anonymous cowards take note). And all you folks that think: "Well, my Ph.D. or M.D. is going to keep me out of the draft", take note. If you are under the age of 45, we are prime candidates.
Freedom comes at a price (Score:3, Insightful)
A much better idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Draft is not unconstitutional (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:sure, why not? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Move along, nothing to see here. (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Move along, nothing to see here. (Score:1, Insightful)
There is no shortage of folks willing to enlist, but the military branches just weren't able to take them all due to policies limiting the size of the military.
Then, the current administration started mobilizing large numbers of troops and therefore, we needed to dip into the Reserve. Unfortunately, the Reserves are not as well trained as full-time soldiers.
Quite the opposite (Score:1, Insightful)
Equal Oppertunity! (Score:5, Insightful)
The US Selective Service System is drawing up plans for a 'special skills draft'.
Would this include women?
Years ago in high school, a female friend once angrily declared the draft "sucked". I looked her straight in the face and said "What do you care?" "Huh?" "You' can't be drafted, only men can be." This was apparently a major revelation, and shockingly, the draft was forgotten about almost immediately.
Main theories I've heard are that a)"our nation's daughters" coming home in body bags during a war would be political suicide, and b)"women aren't as [strong/smart/whatever] as men". Oh, then there's c)"women would use their feminine wiles to distract the men busy fighting!"
Ever notice how feminists just really aren't torn up about any of that, even though most of it is deeply sexist? Also notice how Jessica Lynch was supposedly(according to the Army) beaten, raped, tortured, etc- when all evidence(and her own comments, before she developed permanent amnesia of events) point to all her injuries coming from the car accident she was in, and that Iraqi doctors took exemplary care of her? It's like the Army was saying "look, this is why you don't want women in the military! They're brave but helpless, and can get RAPED! Isn't she cute? She could be YOUR daughter!"
Closed captioned for the politically impared (Score:3, Insightful)
The Selective Service, as it exists now, will never be called upon again according to experts. Therefore, it risks being totally deleted from the budget. Only if they can sell Congress on a modified plan do the bureaucrats keep their jobs, so of course the bureaucrats have written a modifed plan and are trying to sell it.
However, Congress doesn't seem to be buying.
Re:Move along, nothing to see here. (Score:5, Insightful)
The fundamentals have not changed between WW2 and now, and a draft was certainly needed to prosecute that "good war". While other parts of your comment may indeed be "insightful", this part most certainly is not. There's no reason to think that every war worth fighting can be fought with volunteers.
If the US is ever again drawn into a conflict as large-scale as WW2 was, be sure that a draft will be put in place. This will not be a sign that we've "already lost", but rather a sign that we are willing to do what it takes to win.
Re:Booyah! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Contingency plan? (Score:2, Insightful)
When Did Being an Officer Start to Suck? (Score:3, Insightful)
If the military was seen as providing something to their employees, they wouldn't have a recruiting problem.
Doesn't matter. (Score:3, Insightful)
Doesn't matter. They never put you to work in your specialty anyhow.
Or do it nearly so - like the expert electronics guy they assigned to dig (by hand) trenches to drive the radar trucks into so only the antenna was above ground, back in WW II.
Re:Related Question: Benefits of Voluntary Service (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not a direct translation from tax cuts = jobs. When businesses get a tax cut it all doesn't re-enter the economy. When the government takes in money it is spent (actually Bush spent an extra 500 billion this year). Which do you think will help the economy more 100% spending or something less.
Granted simple economics and math elude most people but the "businesses create more jobs" bullshit is getting old. I guess you forgot that businesses hired people when Clinton was in office and taxes were supposedly high.
Re:Move along, nothing to see here. (Score:1, Insightful)
Not all wars can be withdrawn from, popular or not. What would happen if we decided to stop the Global War on Terrorism? And what about the '91 Gulf War. Lot of good it did us withdrawing. War is a choice between bad and worse. When you choose not to go to war hopefully you are choosing 'bad'. As Jeanette Rankin said "You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake".
Re:Move along, nothing to see here. (Score:5, Insightful)
It also takes an act of congress to declare war. declarations of war were probably originally intended to be used only in doomsday situations as well. Now we now that the concept of war has been perverted and twisted so that while our politicians claim to wage a successful war, they have also carefully made sure that war was never declared, bypassing the checks and balances that you originally suggested will protect us from the draft.
Amateur Radio (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Related Question: Benefits of Voluntary Service (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:i already pay my taxes... (Score:2, Insightful)
**chokes on drink in astonishment of your stupidty**
You mean you can't flee *anywhere*? Son, sit down and tell you whom you should tell that too: the millions of illegals in THIS country.
Mama never said you AC's were very bright.
Re:Related Question: Benefits of Voluntary Service (Score:5, Insightful)
Its not like most of the people here have any moral objection to being complicit in murder.
Re:Booyah! (Score:3, Insightful)
That only works if people have jobs. (Score:3, Insightful)
Too many people don't have jobs. People without jobs are NOT paying taxes. People without jobs ARE taking money in the form of unemployment benefits. If someone loses a job, that person goes from a net gain for the system to a net loss for the system.
Bush's theory is that if you give lots of money to rich people, then they'll hire more people and there will be a enough additional people paying taxes to offset the loss of the tax cut.
Except that the people being hired are NOT US citizens in the US. So the government is taking in less money because of the tax cuts and the jobs are going to India so the US citizens aren't being hired so they can't pay into the system to offset the original tax cut.
Now, this means BIGGER profits for the corporations which mean BIGGER profits for the execs of those companies.
But rich people do NOT spend money the same way the average person does. One person buying $500,000 boat is NOT the same as 25 people buying $20,000 cars.
So, tax cuts and increased profits actually yielded ZERO new jobs last month.
There seems to be a very basic flaw in your logic. Your process does not accurately predict events.
Re:Move along, nothing to see here. (Score:5, Insightful)
While it's true that Clinton downsized the military, blaming him for having to call up the Reserves and Guard is silly--or have you forgotten Desert Storm?
The simple fact is that we've ALWAYS relied on non-regulars when it comes time to fight a real war. In EVERY major war the US has fought, the bulk of its forces have been made up of reservists, guardsman, draftees, militia, whatever, and not regular military.
I'll move to Canada... (Score:4, Insightful)
Besides, I'd rather put effort into improving infrastructure than destroying it. Give every Iraq cable TV and start a bunch of McDonalds and they'll be too lazy and fat like us Americans to give a shit about their government.
draftees? running computers? (Score:3, Insightful)
Can you imagine the complete and utter lack of motivation of drafted rear echelon computer guys?
Besides the fact that most geeks tend not to be the most motivated people when it comes to things that are forced on them, I'd venture to guess that 50%(conservative? I think so) would be disqualified outright, for either being a bit too hefty or for other medical reasons.
Also, geeks are pretty bright and shall we say rather "inventive" when it comes to thinking up excuses (i.e. hemorrhoids) and getting doctor's notes etc.
And, of course, those not bright enough to avoid the draft are not the ones you want running your IT, but that is getting back to the whole conscript thing.
Re:Oh, great.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think perhaps we've swung a little too far into paranoia because so few Americans currently serve in the armed forces. I am a captain in the army reserves, and I get the strangest questions from people who have NO idea what being in the military is like. This wasn't true during my parent's generation.
What I'm saying is this: if we want war and an uncertain future, the best way to achieve this is to not serve, to not care, and to put the power to control such decisions in an increasingly smaller and smaller circle of "good ol' boys."
Being a soldier means as much about loving war as being a firefighter does about loving fire.
Now, first things first, we need to get a new fire captain soon... he keeps saying to us, can of gasoline in hand, that, "I'll have some work for you guys in a sec."
Re:never too late... (Score:1, Insightful)
There are lots of ways to serve one's country and it doesn't always mean to go and kill and possibly die. The presumption that everyone makes that being in the army is service while being an accountant isn't is just fucking stupid.
Re:Related Question: Benefits of Voluntary Service (Score:4, Insightful)
According to the Department of Treasury on their
Looking at the yearly figures for public debt, it never experienced a drop during Clinton's administration, in fact over the term of his presidncy it increased by $2 trillion. Granted it has increased a little faster under Bush, at $1.4 trillion, but I am not seeing this magic 10 trillion surplus.
Now, one possibility is that instead of paying down the debt with the surplus it was spent elsewhere with a little extra debt thrown in (in less than a year), but then, considering who was in office at the time, this would not be surprising nor would it be Bush's fault.
Also, generally plural usage of a word denotes multiple occurences. Saying "running 1/2 trillion dollar deficits " with the implication that we have been running deficits of this size is only true if we round up, sometimes by quite a bit.
Next: I was unaware that Bush has been in office for 10 years, and generally re-elections are for 4 years not 5.
Heh. heh. Ok, so you are saying he has done nothing on these few points or has at most only played to the public eye, then you continue to basically blame American citizens for not making intelligent decisions, etc.
So in essence, things aren't going your way and it is everyone elses fault? So sorry, next time we will all sit around and let you make our decisions for us, rather than try to think for ourselves...right after we stop looking up information from the source, like looking at the US treasury dept for public debt information.
I'm not supporting the 1.4 trillion increase in public debt or the current president. I think there are more than enough real issues (backed by real numbers) to talk about without dreaming up new ones...
Given me? Like war, pesitilence and famine? (Score:1, Insightful)
In case you weren't paying attention, this war isn't for America, this is a war for oil and for big business.
We were lied to. There was no threat from Iraq. There were no WMD's. All lies.
You want me to give something back? After the same government gave me so much, like letting Ken Lay crash the economy, and letting him go scotfree. Or importing tens of thousands of foreign workers to undercut our wages. Or exporting hundreds of thousands of jobs overseas.
Or how about my fine healthcare? Or you must be talking about our precious freedoms?
Please, this country didn't give me shit. You can't exercise your right to protest without some fascist like Miami's Timoney calling you an "anarchist" and shooting you in the head with lead filled beanbags.
This country is worthless to me. All the good ole USofA ever did to me was tax the fuck out of my paychecks when I did good, and give me the shaft when I did bad.
My state government and local government did give me quite a lot - a good public education, and a good community college - but no thanks to the fed.
Wake up. You were programmed to say, like an Pavlov's dog, "America is the best country in the world", and "America is a free country".
Really, please, wake the fuck up. Don't you see what's really going on? We have a fucking moron in office who got there by manipulating the republican primary (which he was losing to McCain) and then by blatantly cheating in Florida. He made sure his brother Jeb kept black people from voting to make sure he won the election.
Then, 9 months later, after the longest vacation in Presidential history, 9/11 happens. Where was our military that fine morning? Where are the squadrons of F-16s that are supposed to keep us safe?
Where? THEY WERE ORDERED TO STAND DOWN.
Everyone would know it if our imperialist leader wouldn't be such a coward and actually testify in front of the 9/11 commission.
This is a country where democracy was overthrown by the top 1%. They own the politicans, they own the voting mechanism and they own the media. They tell you what to think and what to say.
I've given enough to this country. I vote and I pay taxes. I see my taxes go to corporate welfare and my votes go nowhere, because they don't count.
I saw my job dissappear and unemployment skyrocketing. There is no assistance for us, but there is plenty of money to bail out American Airlines. And now, you're telling me I should give something back?
I'll give them what they gave me. I'll give Bush a one-way ticket to Crawford Texas. I'll give them crushing bills for things people in other countries take for granted - like health care and education.
The middle class have been stepped on long enough. They have devastated the manufacturing industry, and now the information industry. They short change their middle class investors, have congress grant them monopoly powers by abusing copyrights and patents, and then use these new laws to invade our homes with bullshit subpeonas because we want to exercise fair use of media. They stand by while companies like lil' Dick Cheney's Halliburton does business with Iraq, Iran and Libya, and then give them huge contracts to rip us off in Iraq.
They demoralized and ruined the military by abusing the Guard and Reserves. Our vets get the shaft at VA hospitals and the GI Bill is a joke, you can't pay for college with what they give you.
Now, because they can't get any more dupes to go fight for oil, they want to draft me? Fuck that noise. Let the chickenhawks go and fight. Or better yet, why don't we do the smart thing with the middle east? Develop clean, renewable alternative energy so we can tell those SOBs what to go do with themselves.
Or, we can take your advice and get our asses shot off so Halliburton can charge $40 for a gallon of gas, in the place where's its made.
Re:never too late... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:never too late... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Related Question: Benefits of Voluntary Service (Score:3, Insightful)
We do have this massive trade deficit thing going on...
Re:flamebait... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I doubt they'd want me. (Score:2, Insightful)
I can't stand Ashcroft and want him arrested for crimes against the Constitution, but that isn't on the draft lottery number.
The draft is an equal opportunity employer.
*bzzt* Wrong guess! (Score:2, Insightful)
The "bachelor's degree" = "officer" assertion hasn't been true since the seventies. Of the eight people I went through basic and AIT with, five had their B.S., in engineering, physics, physical therapy, and english (2). None of us were officers.
Three did not have their B.S. The individuals without degrees tended to make a little less money from the beginning of their service, but time in service requirements are hard to get a waiver for, and so they tended to be promoted at the same time, or a little later, than those with a degree.
Re:Move along, nothing to see here. (Score:2, Insightful)
Since none of the Several States has a draft, how exactly does the 14th amendment apply?
Re-read the first part of the 14th Amendment, Section 1: "No state shall..." Maybe you meant to say Due Process?
Re:flamebait... (Score:2, Insightful)
Funny how all the warmongers sit in their mansions while the serfs get convinced that they are ones who have to 'kick raghead ass'. It's a crock of shit. You don't owe any goddam thing to your goddam country except to pay your taxes and defend it's borders.
The Draft is coming ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now class, can anyone tell me why there would be such a large, quite push to restaff so quickly? Mark my words, the draft will be back.
Here's my guesses:
1. If something goes really wrong this summer in Iraq or Afghanistan (like the Tet Offensive in Vietnam) then they will quickly draft and deploy before the November elections.
2. If Bush is reelected then the draft will start Jan or Feb 2005, slow for the first few months and then when they are up to speed they'll start pulling large amounts of young men.
3. If Kerry is elected I can't guess what he would do. I don't if there would be a major difference.
Watch how the US Govt handles draft, induction, training and deployment this time. You'll see companies created that go through boot together, post recruit train together, deploy together, what's left of them will get discharged together and the company disbanded. No more singles in, singles out. This is much more like WWII than Korea or Vietnam.
If you are 14 - 20 years old then I'd seriously start making plans on what you'll do. Speaking as someone who toted a 16 for his uncle I'd recommend not going at any cost. We use to say "the only thing worst than cleaning a body bag is being in one". As a parent I would do whatever it took to keep my son away from any unjust and immoral war like that clusterfuck going on in the Mid East.
As Frank Zappa once said: "What they do in Washington is take care of number one and number one ain't you. You ain't even number two."
Re:never too late... (Score:3, Insightful)
it's not cowardice, it's a lacking of the courage to fight for your convictions, whether they be to fight the enemies of the government, or to fight your enemies IN the government. But it's not a black & white issue.
Some people just don't have what it takes.
Re:You're all safe (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:sure, why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Conscription is forced labor.
Yeah, that's a real stretch of a comparison.
Re:Related Question: Benefits of Voluntary Service (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, I also seem to remember my platoon leader (a very cute female 2nd lieutenant) bitching about how officers have to pay for a lot more than the enlisted folks. The get allowances, granted, but get less for free.
Re:Freedom comes at a price (Score:5, Insightful)
I am the country -- I and 300 million other Americans. The country is not some capricious god that we dump offerings on.
When you can clearly demonstrate to me how blowing up chunks of Iraq has significantly benefitted We The People, then I'll happily join up.
A draft takes place when people don't care about something enough to want to risk dying for it, but do want to force someone else (who feels the same way) to do something about it. Since there are a number of ways of avoiding the draft, and since money and political influence played a role in avoiding Vietnam, I would say that a draft is a stunningly divisive and politically unsound way of achieving that goal.
If there were a horde of Bush's stereotypical black-swathed turban-wearning terrorists mowing down innocent people outside my front door, would I shoot back and risk my life? I'd at least give it serious consideration. That's a cause that's worth fighting for. Attacking a bunch of Iraqis for political goals that are at best extremely unclear and perhaps poorly chosen, and at worst downright corrupt and evil is not something that I am interested in dying for. Frankly, given a choice between firing a shot at either Ashcroft or a random Iraqi citizen, I can tell you right now who I'd be aiming at.
While I don't want to be drafted to fight in Iraq, also I don't feel that anyone else should be drafted to fight there. As a matter of fact, I feel very strongly that we should not be involved in Iraq at all. I think that US actions in Iraq have caused political and social repercussions that hurt the United States more than help it. So, no. I would not be "fighting for the the country", I would be fighting against it.
Re:sure, why not? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:A much better idea (Score:3, Insightful)
Uh, you got an extra $900,000,000 sitting around?
The military already employs major numbers of "40-something geeks", or "Defense Contractors", as they prefer to be called. Those guys work for Northrop and Lockheed designing UAVs and JSFs and are highly compensated. They're no more likely to volunteer for the military than any random US citizen is to mail the IRS an extra $30,000 to help out the war effort.
Re:sure, why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
If these people didn't already have a "trained career path" they wouldn't be subject to this draft, and if the pay and benefits were really so great they could fill the position without putting a gun to anybody's head.
This is forced labor... no matter how sugar-coated it is, that's slavery.
Re:never too late... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm continually astonished that people who will object to environmental regulation, "because it violates my property rights", will at the same time support the notion of the draft. Working to abolish the draft, in all forms, sounds like my patriotic duty. Blind support of the government, and forcing others to die for, and to kill for, policy they disagree with hardly sounds like serving *my* country. Maybe you live in a dictatorship, but I live in the USA.
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." -- Senator Carl Schurz -- February 29, 1872. That's patriotism. The word for what you are endorsing is "jingoism" [wikipedia.org]. I prefer patriotism, it takes more thought, and requires more bravery.
good (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:never too late... (Score:2, Insightful)
If you really don't want to serve in any position in the military during a draft, your options are basically A. prove yourself unfit for service B. run away to where you won't be found until it passes or C. Spend a couple years in jail, as some who refused to work in the conscientous objector positions they were offered chose during Vietnam.
There are usually other outs (students, people who do great works in the community, etc), but we'd have to wait for a draft to be enacted to know what would and would not be allowed this time.
Re:That only works if people have jobs. (Score:2, Insightful)
I also find it amusing / tragic that in the last month where several thousand American jobs were created, they were created in the government / public sector and not in the private sector. I mean, if the government is the only one hiring, maybe we should reinstitute those taxes so we could put more people to work.
Re:sure, why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
Voluntary military service can be thought of as the ultimate form of democracy: can't get enough people to volunteer to fight your war? Too bad, guess you can't fight it then. I can't see how forcing me to kill for a cause I disagree with is anything but slavery.
Taxes are a different deal, mainly in that they don't force me to kill, or force me to risk my life. I may disagree with how my tax dollars are spent, but as a civilian I still have all my rights and can aggitate for change. A soldier can, quite legally, be punished for disagreeing with government policy (this is why you no longer see non-anonymous interviews with soldiers who disagree with the Bush Government's policy. The first few who did so non-anonymously suffered retribution). A civilian can protest, write nasty letters, run for office against the politician who is spending his money, etc. A soldier can do none of those things. The draft is not equivilant to paying taxes.
Re:Equal Oppertunity! (Score:3, Insightful)
A is true. The president who is in office when time puts on there cover a picture of stacked dead women might as well close up shop.
There were many women who knew perfectly well they couldn't be drafted, and fought to have it stopped anyways. One twit doesn't speak for all activists.
as for C, women can e distracting, but not becasie of there 'wiles' but because men are programmed to think of there nads first. In stress situations, it is ot un common to have a desire to couple, as it were.
Now, Imagine what would happen the first time a pregnant military person was killed.
as far as I remember, the reports that her injuries were sustained in the car crash only came from one source, whose credibility was question able.
Now, Instead of wasting effort trying to get the other half of the population killed in the front lines, why don't you spend some time trying to help prevent the half that has to go to war from dying?
Re:never too late... (Score:3, Insightful)
Excuse me? You know nothing about me. You couldn't even be bothered to check my extensive posting history -- had you done that you would have seen numerous posts opposing the Iraq war and the current administration. If that's buying into "the whole pack oflies and propaganda" then I guess I'm guilty as charged.
I believe that most "crises" that America has faced recently and ones we will face in the so-called "War" on terrorism are almost entirely caused by the actions of our own military and political leaders
Did I say the current event was a crisis? Stop putting words in my mouth. I said that in the event that a draft was ever reinstated it would likely be a life or death situation for our country. Then I went on to point out the reason why I think this is so: Mainly the fact that if we currently had a draft then the idiots who are currently in charge would not be able to launch these unjustified wars (Iraq -- not Afghanistan -- that was completely justified) because the public wouldn't stand for it. That was the lesson of Vietnam. Whereas with the current all-volunteer force most of the public doesn't really have a stake in it. The rich people who are in charge certainly don't have a stake at all. With a fair draft system (read the Selective Service [sss.gov] website) like we currently have they would have a stake in it. Do you think Bush would be so gung-ho to take us into Iraq if his daughters had to go?
I still fail to see how my previous statements can be seen as buying into a pack of lies and propaganda. Please explain that to me -- or just maybe you were the person moving the argument to the level of insults.
they realize that the US system gives then NO VOICE in what is happening and they realize that they are being used to ends far beyond their control
I guess all those elected representatives on all levels of Government (local, state and Federal) count for nothing then. You do have a voice. People who think they don't have a voice and give up (by moving to Canada or even worse: not bothering to vote) are the true enemies of any democracy.
For the record I wouldn't go if they reinstated a draft for Dubya's oil wars in Iraq. But I would go if I believed our way of life to be threatened or in danger. And I would have the courage to stand up for what I believed in -- running away to Canada is the cowards way out. Mod me flamebait instead of debating me -- you only prove me correct.
Re:never too late... (Score:2, Insightful)
There is a world of difference between a soldier and an accountant. Sure, both an accountant and a soldier can serve their country. But one is risking his life while the other is risking his paycheck. What is the worst thing that could happen to Mr Greenspan? People boo him until he quits his post? How about for the soldier?
What kind of reward does the soldier get for doing his job? Not much. How about for Mr. Greenspan? Yeah, he's recognized across the world. So Mr. Greenspan doesn't have a hazardous job, is recognized across the world for his sucesses, and has little consequences for failure. How does this fare for the soldier?
People in the military should be honored for risking their necks vice being booed on slashdot. The fact that they are booed instead disgusts me.
Re:Contingency plan? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:never too late... (Score:3, Insightful)
And my Grandfather lost 75% of his lungs in France during WW2. He had a hellva lot more respect for those that stood up for what they believed in (and paid the price for it by going to jail) then those that ran away to Canada.
Some people just don't have what it takes.
Then take equivalent civilian service. Join the local volunteer fire-dept (that's an out if I'm not mistaken). That is an option available to you. Running away is cowardice in my eyes. Saying that "I don't have an obligation to my country" (like many of the people in this discussion have) and comparing the draft to slavery is disgusting. Maybe they should leave if that's their opinion of our country.
There's simply no excuse for running away when you have the option of performing similar civilian service and giving back to your country in another way during the time of crisis.
BTW: Thank you for your service to our country in whatever service and war that you fought.
I won't volunteer, but I'll go if compelled to (Score:2, Insightful)
However--as I always say when a discussion of the draft comes up--I also realize that what has enabled me to acquire a family and a house and be able to drive down the street and buy a gallon of milk for $3.00 is the fact that there are people willing to fight for those things.
Yeah, I'm a computer person. I love computers. Computers are putting food on my table and a roof over my head. I don't want to leave if I don't have to.
But if it ever got so bad that I was drafted, well, yeah I'd go. I'd go and fight so that others can have the same things I've been so fortunate to get. Things like freedom and happiness and generally living in a (mostly) free country.
My sentiment is probably not popular in this day and age. But if they tell me to go, I'll go. I'm not making a run for the border.
Myrrh
Re:sure, why not? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ask then, just how much of a "free society" it is when people are forced to work for it against their will.
Then ask how much of a "free society" it is if people are forced to pay for it against their will.
The key here is not that taxation justifies conscription, its that conscriptions provides an extreme example of just how wrong taxation was/is in the first place.
You know how they're recruiting, right? (Score:2, Insightful)
The draft never stopped a war! (Score:5, Insightful)
The draft is slavery. I am a veteran, and I proudly volunteered. But if they were to show up claiming they had a right to my life and time - I'd go to jail first.
Re:Booyah! Overweight? (Score:3, Insightful)
You're a guy with no right and a sadistic drill sargeant whose job it is to make you lose those 100 pounds.
I suspect you wouldn't go to prison; you would be compelled to lose those pounds or die trying. Remember, the military has guns, they will smack you around, they will break you down and remold you.
And if you think you'll outsmart them, keep in mind that today's military training is a result of 1000's of years of human experimentation on how to make good soldiers.
You are a young boy who hasn't been able to wipe your ass for 20 years. I suspect thousands of years of experience gives them an edge in ways you're not capable of.
Look sonny, just lose the weight. It will be easier now than with a drill sargeant beating you down.
Re:Booyah! (Score:3, Insightful)
Methinks you may well have been drafted into the tinfoil hat brigade. A General Draft would require YEARS worth of infrastructure to be built: we don't HAVE the facilities to house or train that many new recruits/draftees/etc.
Remember, armchair generals study strategy and tactics. REAL Generals study logistics, and the logistics for a massive draft just aren't there. . .
Re:Booyah! (Score:3, Insightful)
Still, I did get the draft papers when I was eighteen. I vaguely recall the wording:
"Would you die for your country? Of course you would! Now is your chance! Please sign here. Your signature will contribute to our 'Not throwing your ass in jail' resistance effort and enter you into our 'Being shoved overseas and watching people die and being traumatized beyond any conceivable help' sweepstakes! Enter now, slave!"
There were a few differences here and there but that's the gist of it. Good luck escaping to Mexico.
Re:Booyah! (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd bet that if Bush wins re-election, he will suddenly find a critical need for a draft. Amazing how the need to get win an election keeps officials from supporting unpopular issues.
Re:Related Question: Benefits of Voluntary Service (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:draftees? running computers? (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe the opposite argument is more compelling: do you really want a bunch of volunteers who all think this is a really good idea running your operations? Isn't that like have a team trainer who has money on the game evaluating whether a player's health and career are at risk by going back in? Jimmy Carter thought it dubious; and that's why he (probably the most anti-war president in decades) reinstituted draft registration
I'd rather have press-ganged specialists who are experts and bring a professional set of ethics than a bunch of gung-hos who got their jobs because of a bureaucratic assignment after basic.
Re:Booyah! (Score:5, Insightful)
What do you think the draft is? WHat do you think happened in WWII and vietnam? Do you think people were trained in "facilities to house or train that many new recruits"? Do you live in 2004?
The draft is real, like it or not. The government maintains the selective service specifically so they can draft people immediately when needed. Volumes of poeple, Hundreds of thousands if needed.
You are sadly mistaken if you believe for one second that the US Government has no infrastructure to draft people. It can happen in a heartbeat. It doesn't take "years of planning and building"
It sounds like you are the one with the tinfoil hat on. I think the metal is seeping into your bloodstream and giving you poisoning.
Correct. (Score:5, Insightful)
Its like the lottery, except when you win you lose. Don't like it? Kick out Bush and his PNAC buddies.
Re:Booyah! (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:never too late... (Score:1, Insightful)
I think your reaction was precisely the kind that the parent was referring too.
You are equating risk of one's life with the value of the service they are providing. The parent seems to dispute that, and I agree. So what if Mr. Greenspan is not in a hazardous position, that does not have any bearing on the contribution he provides for the country. A soldier may be risking his life, but for what? I will definitely agree that through the course of time, there have been many instances where soldiers were heros, but it is silly to think that is always the case just because they put themselves at risk.
With your irrevocably retarded argument, we would be led to conclude that Roy Horn is the greatest patriot.
pfft.
Re:Wrong sequence of events - and facts (Score:3, Insightful)
The simple fact remains: the US government supplied weapons, technology, and money, to Iraq during a period when it was known that Saddam Hussain was engaging in murder, rape, torture, etc. Donald Rumsfeld (currently Secretary of Defense) visited Iraq during this period, shook hands with Hussain (known at the time to be a vile dictator), offered help, etc. Whether other countries did worse is irrelivant. The actions of the Regan and Bush I administrations make it pathetically obvious that concern for human rights in Iraq is not the reason for the current war. The actions of the Bush II government in supporting and providing aid to the thugs in charge of Uzbekistan (among other places) demonstrate two things: 1) they haven't learned not to cozy up to dictators yet, and 2) human rights simply aren't a concern for them. This leads directly to the conclusion that there must be a non-human rights motive for the war. Nothing you wrote did anything to disprove this conclusion. Do try again though, I would be interested in anything that could prove my conclusion wrong.
I will also add that during the lead up to the current US/Iraq war several members of the Bush government, including President Bush himself, specificially excluded human rights violations as a justification for war. It is only now, after the fact, that the Bush government is claiming that human rights abuses were among their cuases for war.
I will also mention that this is not a partisin issue. The Clinton administration, and all administrations during the past 50 years, have made it policy to support dictators and surpress democracy. The actions of the US government are directly opposed to the values that make the US a great country. I am curious as to why you want to defend these anti-American people and their policies. Could you explain?
Re:Bingo! (Score:4, Insightful)
Not everyone has the option to take up another citizenship. Some people are shit out of luck in that department. Though I think I would enjoy my time in prison for refusing a draft; that's the most honorable way out of a compulsary service requirement. No one can accuse you of joining the national guard to get out of a draft if you spend a few years in the hole for your country. There is simply no other way to emerge from a period of unjust war with your honor completely intact. You can try to repair it after serving in the military like Kerry did, but that's just window dressing. Every innocent man, woman and child your service killed will never come back. You have to refuse service and refuse taxes and do your jail time for it, until your country is out of the mess, if you want to be able to say you are a patriot without further dishonoring yourself with a lie.
Not that I'm much for nationalism these days, I would go 'hiking in Maine' long before my number came up.
Re:never too late... (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't eat the seed corn (Score:4, Insightful)
For example, if you let all of your young college students go off and enlist, where exactly are you expecting to get your next generation of officer corp in the event the war is protracted? If you put rifles in the hands of engineers and others who are keeping your industrial machinery (which you need to prosecute the war) running how exactly are you going to continue to be able to fight?
Look at the experience of Britain in WWI. All of their young idealistic college students dropped out and enlisted. When the war dragged on they discovered they'd eaten the seed corn. They'd thrown their best human resources away as grunts on the front lines early in the war.
Re:Booyah! (Score:2, Insightful)
All I know is that I only got a *real* job after Bush became President.
Humm...
Seems that, personal, anecdotal evidence is bogus evidence.
I do not think NEED means what you think it means. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:never too late... (Score:1, Insightful)
And one is contributing towards a peaceful society, whilst the other is killing people. It's fallacious to suggest that putting yourself at risk implies that the deed is therefore good.
The problem is that not all wars are necessarily just. In the case of risk of invasion (eg, World War 2), then the soldier is certainly doing a great service to his country. But the wars America has been involved with lately hardly come anywhere close to it.
There are arguments for and against whether such wars are justified - but it's absurd to suggest that the original poster is not "serving his country" because he doesn't want to be forced to take part in whatever wars the US decides to start in future, and as the other poster said, there are plenty of more constructive ways one can serve their country.
People in the military should be honored for risking their necks vice being booed on slashdot. The fact that they are booed instead disgusts me.
It seems to me that generally (ie, outside of Slashdot) it's the accountants, businessmen and so on that are booed or at best ignored, whilst the military are looked on highly, and it seems to be a great taboo to say otherwise (I remember when the Iraq war started, people would say "It doesn't matter that you were against the war - now you have to support our boys"). But personally, I'd prefer a world were accountants were viewed more highly than the military.
Re:Booyah! (Score:3, Insightful)
The Army is experiencing a serious manpower crunch. Probably because military careers don't have as much prestige as they once did and pay so damn poorly. And deals like the Army Reserve don't seem so hot any more now that they are pretty much brought into every active conflict in large numbers to bolster the ranks of the regular forces.
Re:Booyah! (Score:3, Insightful)
What you're missing is that in the case of WW2 we were suddenly--overnight--in a major war with multiple world powers. Money came out of the faucet, and we built everything that was needed with little regard to cost and every emphasis on speed.
As for Vietnam, it didn't happen overnight. The system had years to prepare for the numbers of draftees required.
Unless there was a serious emergency (real or manufactured, whatever floats your boat) you would NOT see an instant induction of hundreds of thousands.
Re:Necessary truths (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Booyah! (Score:2, Insightful)
The Draft is instituted at a point in time where there is a shortfall in bodies; not necesarily in a particular career field. Oh, and for the record, personnel in my AFSC, Computer Programming, are being denied early retirement, as well as those in most other Computer Fields.
Insofar as a targeted draft goes, I think it's a bunch of bunk. The United States military is an all-volunteer force for a reason; and as such has remained highly motivated, and will continue to be that way as long as it remains an all volunteer force. I'd expect to see more force shaping, possibly in the form of reassignments done on a voluntary basis first; and if that fails to bring numbers to an acceptable level, then non-vols will be selected for retraining. If both of those measures fail to bring numbers then you finally get to a decent likely hood of a draft; but I wouldn't bet on seeing one prior to that.
Re:Running Scared like all the politicians. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd imagine not, considering that you are already in the military. There are those of us, balls notwithstanding, that have become accusomed to our current ways of life and would not like to be forced into military service. There are also those among us who again, balls notwithstanding, would simply prefer not to die.
I can not think of any people other than my own for whom I would risk death to secure freedom. Using volunteers for our charity work around the world is all well and good, but I think drafts shold be reserved for actual threats to the nation's security.
Re:When Did Being an Officer Start to Suck? (Score:3, Insightful)
Potheads (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Running Scared like all the politicians. (Score:4, Insightful)
> that have become accusomed to our current ways
> of life and would not like to be forced into
> military service. There are also those among us
> who again, balls notwithstanding, would simply
> prefer not to die.
There are two ways to look at it:
1 - Afraid to die/lose your current way of life
2 - Want to kill someone/change your current way of life
Most of the people who join the USMC fall into that second catagory. If their recruiter is even vaugely honest with them (which, I'll admit, is a streach for even the mildest mannered recruiter), they let prospective recruits know that, in the end, it's about killing the enemy dead either by pushing a button, pulling a trigger or by putting your fscking kbar through his heart.
Anyone who forgets that and still thinks military service is a good idea from them should probably join the peace corps and go off to get high with the natives in the next country that the USMC will be visiting shortly.
Personally, I'm with Robert Heinlein: No service, no vote.
Re:never too late... (Score:2, Insightful)
Unfortunately, as admirable as standing up for your principles is, you have to base your actions on how they might hurt others. It's probably easier to support a family in Canada than in jail.
Running away is cowardice in my eyes. Saying that "I don't have an obligation to my country" (like many of the people in this discussion have) and comparing the draft to slavery is disgusting.
You have an obligation to do what's right, and for the most part you just follow the law and pay your taxes. You might do a a few things you find distasteful because the law says so, and you might break a few rules without hurting anyone else, but if it's a big deal you can resort to voting or media attention to try and get it changed. If you're asked to put your life in danger, then you have to look pretty hard at why you're being asked to do that.
If the country is truly in peril, then you serve to protect your loved ones, or your way of life, or whatever is important to you that's threatened. Getting killed in some foreign country for no good reason or going to jail doesn't do any of those much good.
Re:Booyah! (Score:3, Insightful)
Moreover, since it probably won't happen, it's enough to make people believe it's a possibility.
Re:Necessary truths (Score:2, Insightful)
Obviously you can go over and over again how the fringe of society attacking one person in a fit of rage. Usually they get harsher sentences than OJ Simpson did for mercilessly slaughtering two people in his own home. But these are separated subjects, in third world countries the masses are frenzied into terrorism by there local religions and frequently supported by the very figureheads that claim to be messengers of god.
If you want the facts straight; the average joe in American isn't running around killing 100's because he thinks their religion is perfect, instead tolerance has tempered that WAY down.. But when you see 100's or 1000's killed by one person you have to wonder if the system or even the beliefs are skewed.
I don't think it is the society itself but the people who control the religion, because frequently in these third world countries they are also the ones that lead the army, and have the money as well.....very bad connection if you ask me...if the pope as the richest man in Europe and controlled 3 world armies i think we would have a similar problem of misconstrued belief systems.
RTFA: This is a pure "What if" role-playing (Score:5, Insightful)
This makes clear that the "U.S. Plans Targeted Draft for Computer Personnel" headline is pure scaremongering. No one is about to get drafted. This is not "Tin soldiers and Nixon coming" for those of you trapped in the 1970s. This is deep, long-range contingency planning by a government agency that needs to look busy to keep their funding from being cut.
Too many people seem to be ignorant of the difference between "contingent" and "imminent." Just because, say, for example, FEMA updates its plans on recovering from a nuclear war DOESN'T MEAN we're planning to launch a nuclear war. Likewise, that whole "Pentagon plans for possibility of global climate change" had nothing to do with them planning for what they thought was going to happen, but everything to do with laying in contingency plans for what MIGHT happen, just like we had "rainbow" plans before World War II as to what we might have to do if involved in a global war against various enemies; just because we made plans for a global war against England, Russia and China (as well as Japan and Germany) didn't mean such an event was likely.
Will anyone here on Slashdot be called up? If, say, al Queda or North Korea nukes DC or Los Angeles, maybe. Otherwise all this talk is a bunch of blather from people who like to over-react anytime anyone in the Bush administration mentions the words "national security" and "computers" in the same sentence.
Re:Wrong sequence of events. (Score:3, Insightful)
2 = anthropomorphic [tnellen.com] current United States 1 = current US gov't
2 = elements of the Reagan administration again
The US is a vague, abstract, amorphous, non-human characteristic-having blob that changes continuosly over time, and it's fallacious to refer to it as the same thing across different swaths of time, having human characteristics or to confuse the US with the US government or a past US government. People do this all the time and it annoys the hell out of me.
Re:Booyah! (Score:4, Insightful)
Sir.Cracked is right about the force shaping program. In point of fact, it's no secret that the Air Force is having a problem with getting people TO LEAVE. (something about patriotism, job satisfaction, being a part of something bigger than yourself)
We don't WANT a draft, don't NEED a draft, and don't LIKE the draft.
1. Draftees have to be trained like everyone else. Volunteers (by virtue of wanting to be there) tend to learn better than draftees. Since we need specific skillsets, more training is going to be required. (e.g. knowing Arabic does not an intelligence officer make)
2. Draftees only stay for a limited amount of time. With a draft, the AF loses a well-established incentive program that has managed to keep a lot of people with needed skills for a long time. With a draft, we'll have a lot of people for two years, max.
3. The AF has had an all-volunteer force (AVF) for over thirty years. There are but a handful of personnel still on active duty who joined when the draft was still in force. If we go back to a draft, the culture shift would be devastating. Every single policy decision, every strategy has, directly or indirectly, has to consider how it will impact the volunteer force. A draft would be more work than those skills gain.
4. The skills the Selective Service is planning to draft all require careful security screening and trust. These are not areas that draftees would be just dropped into.
5. Why draft when you can contract? Contractors can be found in every aspect of military forces. They're no longer being kept back in the US--they're on the front lines. Easier to buy a ready-made capability than draft it and force it out of the draftees. You draft infantry, not computer techs.
6. The AF is doing pretty well, despite what "experts" on here might think. The Army might be hurting, but I doubt it. Look at the millions being poured into recruiting (airforce.com). The DOD isn't about to abandon this strategy.
My opinions are my own.
Re:Running Scared like all the politicians. (Score:5, Insightful)
So long as we understand "service" properly:
Never confuse serving the state with serving your country.
Re:Running Scared like all the politicians. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Correct. (Score:3, Insightful)
What makes you think that the PNAC loons are only into Republicans?
Re:never too late... (Score:3, Insightful)
My grandpa dodged the draft. He got a draft notice just like your grandpa, the difference being that he was 15 and being asked(well, told) to join the Imperial Japanese Army. I don't exactly blame him for dodging that one. Should he have gone to jail?
Now, I agree that the U.S. is more worthy of recieving service than imperial Japan, but I disagree with your argument that one owes one's life to the government. Your argument could just as easily apply to a guy living in Japan, Germany or Iraq as an American. Should an Iraqi who was told to serve Saddam have an obligation to do that or otherwise serve "his country", ie, his government?
I feel that serving the current U.S. government is good, even if I dislike the current president. But the reasons why I think it is good have to do with things like the consent of the governed and freedom to oppose the gov't, things which my grandpa did not have. I think that instituting the draft would undermine the message that the U.S. is trying to send to the world. Right now, they could point at any U.S. soldier and say, he is there because he supports the country, believes in it enought to risk his life. After a draft, all you can say is that he's there because it's better than jail time.
Please think about what they're being told to do - to risk, and possibly give, their lives. Right now all they're doing is asking that you do, but in a draft that request turns into a demand. What right do they have to do that? My grandfather had at least one older brother die in the army - what gave them(the gov't) the right to take that? Because he was born there? Because he benefitted somehow from the gov't?
I feel that serving America is good, but that there is no obligation of service to any government.
Re:Necessary truths (Score:2, Insightful)
remember to tell your wife she was a parasitic growth up until she remembered her first mental images....remember to tell your son you meant nothing to him until he came out of the womb. And up until he cried he was basically a tumor. The only thing that most people dont understand is that abortion is all fine and dandy on paper, because most people think it happens early early in the game of baby+mother hood. We are not a secular society, a secular society would say no to feelings, beliefs, religion, and the individual. Unfortunatly most people still don't understand that our forefathers weren't secular but infact the people that populated this country had MANY religions all of which did not support abortion.
quote me on this: "the day that you decide to put your life into the hands of people that want to kill you, then you can mandate wether or not a tumorus baby or parasitic wife lives or dies."
Besides this being a far cry from the original post, i still reitterate my original post, i believe that the draft is nothing to run from.
Re:never too late... (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a difference between this war, and WW2 and WW1. In both world wars, we were attacked. In WW1, our merchant ships were being sunk. People protested against the draft because the enemy wasn't attacking our shores. But nonetheless, we were attacked.
In WW2, we had pearl harbor. We almost didn't need a draft with the amount of support for a war that generated. Even though the whole thing is suspicious, both my grandpa's faught, and my mothers father saw a lot of stuff in that war, he never talks about it. That's the price he payed to stop 3 tyrranies (Or rahter, a tyrrany, a dictatorship, and a bunch of crazy japanese people) who's ideas would've destoryed humanity as we know it.
In vietnam, the only reason we faught was to stop the experiment known as communism and attack soviet russia on foreign soil, like we did in the middle east (and we created a bunch of dictatorships in the process). Our lives weren't in mortal danger, our economies in danger of being destroyed. Infact, there was no real reason for the vietnam war, and people refused to go through a draft.
In a time of war, a draft shouldn't be needed. A Draft is there to take the fearful and pair them with the fearless. The fearless are the ones who run into combat and know what they must do. Nowadays, people are afraid. They view their own police force as a occupational army, and the police act that way. When there's such widespread distrust of the goverment and people begining to organize against that institution on a grass roots level, what do you think a draft will do?
I can understand the need to take down those dicatorships, our fathers made mistakes and the sons will pay for their sins. Those dictatorships have grown to dislike the US, and their people hate the US and their dictators. That doesn't mean another generation must die and be wounded on the battlefield to institute another set of dictators or to make foreign lands ours.
I'd fight to free those people, as I consider it my duty as a christian. But not under Bush, not under Rumsfield. Not with the FBI and CIA in existance, not with blood of crimes like MKULTRA and the bombing of the Liberty by Israel on their hands. I don't trust those people. Not if I know my kids, if I ever reproduce, will fight again on the same soil for the same reason.
Protesting right now is getting bad, the media won't cover it but it's everywhere. New york for christ sakes revoked the Patriot act. Civil disobedience from cities is a bad thing for our republic, it serves to tear it apart.
Say bush is re-elected, and a draft is instituted. Do you think a civil war will happen? I certainly hope not, but that's what it may come to. Nobody I talked to trusts our goverment, nor feels like they can do anything about it. What happens if a group rises up to unite these people? Gets them to come out of the woodwork and do what's right. Even our right to vote is under attack, that may be lost this election.
People aren't stupid in america. Most of america is in the middle class, and they've got stuff they don't want to lose, things they don't want to rebuild. They are patient, it's a staring contest. The first to blinks looses.