Vint Cerf Talks About The "Interplanetary Internet" 169
Uncle Humph1 writes "There's an interesting article at NewsForge by Robin (Roblimo)Miller about Vint Cerf giving a presentation to NOVALUG about the Interplanetary Internet and having lunch with them afterward. An interesting read. One of the quotables by Vint with regard to security reads 'We're building in security from end to end,' he says, 'because we don't need headlines saying, '15-year-old takes over Mars.'" Here is some more information about the interplanetary Internet.
One obvious question (Score:1)
sigh.. (Score:1, Funny)
Already done? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Already done? (Score:2, Funny)
Surely it was Appletalk or something, which is why everyone seemed to be using Macs...
Otherwise everyone would have netstumbled their wifi network and slashdotted them out of the sky :)
Re:Already done? (Score:2)
No, wait, that wasn't until OS 9, ID4 was 1996....
Maybe he just FTPed the thing to them. Yeah that must be it.
ahhh to tired for funnies
Re:Already done? (Score:3, Informative)
Note that 120 sec is defined in the protocol as the maximum possible RTT. I guess we'll have to use something other than TCP to talk to the University of Mars.
Interplanetary Internet means.... (Score:5, Funny)
A universe of spam (Score:2)
Yeah, I can't wait until my inbox is crammed full of "All-natural proven method to add inches to your tentacles!" porno spam.
GMD
Re:Interplanetary Internet means.... (Score:1)
(Don't mod me off topic for your not getting the humor.)
Re:Interplanetary Internet means.... (Score:2)
"Bill Gates is paying everyone 5 galactic creds for every email you forward to another planet!"
"see the galactic famous trisexuals!!"
"Hi, I am the spouse of an important king on omacron 6. I need to transfer some money off world....."
I would put up with spam from an galactic empire. Its a small price to pay to be part of an galactic empire, that consists of more then just the human race. Unless they want to devour us.
15?? (Score:1)
Congrads... Reminds me of anti-counterfieting of currency... This bill should take them at least 18 months to duplicate.... 3 months later you start to see the fakes.
Sheesh! (Score:4, Funny)
Pinging marsrover.co.mars [68.179.57.159] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 68.179.57.159: bytes=32 time=12100ms TTL=4300
Reply from 68.179.57.159: bytes=32 time=12000ms TTL=4300
Reply from 68.179.57.159: bytes=32 time=11000ms TTL=4300
Reply from 68.179.57.159: bytes=32 time=12000ms TTL=4300
Ping statistics for 68.179.57.159:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 11000ms, Maximum = 12100ms, Average = 11700ms
Won't be playing UT with these guys anytime soon...
Re:Sheesh! (Score:4, Interesting)
there's a comment lines 590-604 saying:
* we do not increase the rtt estimate. rto is initialized
* from rtt, but increases here. Jacobson (SIGCOMM 88) suggests
* that doubling rto each time is the least we can get away with.
* In KA9Q, Karn uses this for the first few times, and then
* goes to quadratic. netBSD doubles, but only goes up to *64,
* and clamps at 1 to 64 sec afterwards. Note that 120 sec is
* defined in the protocol as the maximum possible RTT. I guess
* we'll have to use something other than TCP to talk to the
* University of Mars.
*
* PAWS allows us longer timeouts and large windows, so once
* implemented ftp to mars will work nicely. We will have to fix
* the 120 second clamps though!
*/
Found on http://www.wcug.wwu.edu/lists/netdev/200005/msg00
The guy in the post proposes a 240 second clamp as upper limit, but I guess that wouldn't really help with this special problem...
Re:Sheesh! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Sheesh! (Score:1)
Re:Sheesh! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Sheesh! (Score:2, Funny)
FTL Communications (Score:5, Funny)
However, FTL Communications are probably possible, [quantumfields.com] so we can hope that our overweight, velour wearing descendents might at least talk dirty with some green alien women.
Of course, based on today's internet, those green alien women would probably be fat, balding green alien men and green alien FBI agents on green alien sting missions against the sexually deviant human race.
Unfortunately, this proposed FTL method requires you to ship the quantum-coupled-er...thingies from place to place FIRST, which means we'd have to exchange ambassadors with the green aliens FIRST... meaning Captain K is back in the shag house, big time.
And then, the quantum communications might be a bit, well, odd, as you might recieve cryptic messages like this:
Reply from 68.179.57.159: qubits = 256 95% confidence -11fs<time<-4fs, measured from point of transmission, 95% confidence -14fs<time<-6fs, measured from point of reception.
Which is a reply to the following command:
Pinging hotbabes.co.vulcan [68.179.57.159] with 256 qubits of data.
Which you had not yet actually run. Anyone want to suggest changes to TCP/IP that would allow you to handle when acks arrived before the message they acknowledge has been sent? Just asking.
Re:FTL Communications (Score:3, Funny)
Sure: If you receive an ACK to a packet you haven't sent, put it into a buffer. Each time you're about to send a packet, check to see if you've already received an ACK for it. If you have, adjust the window as apppropriate and don't send the packet.
Re:FTL Communications (Score:5, Funny)
Naughty, naughty. Still need to send the packet or you generate a causality loop. You already received the response for the packet you're about to send, you see. If you don't send it, then what was the response to?
It's bad enough having inexperienced coders leaving memory leaks and infinite loops lying around; now we'll have reality leaks and causal loops to watch out for, too. "Woops, I forgot a semicolon and now French people speak German..."
Re:FTL Communications (Score:2)
Do people NEVER learn? You should NEVER speak in infinitives. You will ALWAYS be proven wrong.
Traveling faster than light is impossible.... Just as impossible as the 4-minute mile, 70MPH travel, faster than sound travel, space travel, etc.
NOTHING is impossible for people, unless they limit themselves. (You will notice how I speak about people in the third person {:-> )
Quantum Ack... This feature is already in IPv6. Unfortunately, it looks like it would be easier to change the physics of the universe than to get people to leave IPv4.
Besides, addressing this issue in TCP/IP should come second. First we have to address it when it happens in our overclocked processors.
http://bbspot.com/News/2000/5/clock_rift.html
Re:FTL Communications (Score:2, Funny)
Damnit, I spilled pop all over my screen...
Re:FTL Communications (Score:2)
Re:FTL Communications (Score:2)
Did you read the paper that you quoted? It basically said "well... theory says that FTL communication isn't possible using quantum correlations... but the theory could be wrong!" Yes, it's true, the theory could be wrong - and the same could be said for any number of things, but it's not where I'm going to place my money.
No one - read, no one has managed to send information faster than light. They've managed to collapse EPR states, they've managed to distort a photon's wavepacket such that a significant portion of it arrived faster than light would, but no one has managed to send information yet, because all of these experiments have the side caveat: no, we can't send information this way - but it's still interesting to see what we can do!
Re:FTL Communications (Score:2)
Re:Sheesh! (Score:1)
Re:Sheesh! (Score:2)
Think more along the lines of marsrover.olympusmons.mars.sol.
The
Steve.
Re:Sheesh! (Score:2)
So they split it up into a domain name, and a location identifier - that is, "mars.ibm.com, mars.sol". This is easily extendable to other galaxies, although there's no real need - parent stars will always be uniquely identified, I imagine. But "mars.ibm.com, mars.sol.milkyway" still sounds fine.
Re:Sheesh! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Sheesh! (Score:2)
Re:Sheesh! (Score:1)
reread those numbers (Score:2)
Not Really... (Score:1)
At a minimum... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:At a minimum... (Score:2)
Protocol in Independence Day? (Score:1, Redundant)
Love the link. (Score:2)
News: RIAA invades Alpha Centuri over filesharing. (Score:2, Funny)
Re:News: RIAA invades Alpha Centuri over fileshari (Score:1)
"the lawsuit is based upon the stated copyright violation of mars orbital satelites 3,4, and 5. said satelites, whos orbital speed and trajectory are an exact duplicate of several earth-orbital satelites are violating the artistic integrity of said earth satelites. under intergalactic law, no two orbital patterns can be duplicated without the express permission of the originating orbital satelite."
this of course would be followed by several pay-as-you-go networks, where for a small fee each satelite would have the right to use the orbital pattern of previous satelites, assuming that all royalties have been duly paid.
--Stupidity should be as painful as Windows.
Re:News: RIAA invades Alpha Centuri over fileshari (Score:3, Funny)
The 15 year old we dont need to worry about (Score:2)
If slashdot did link to it...it would be like having a server running on a dial-up.
Re:The 15 year old we dont need to worry about (Score:1)
Great - Now Mars will be slashdotted in 5 minutes! (Score:1)
A Better Idea (Score:1)
Quotable... (Score:2)
"...and we're collaborating with Worldcom [wcom.com] because we want headlines saying:
Profits From Interplanetary Internet Exceed Wildest Expectations
"Hot Stock! Buy Now!" Say Analysts
Ridiculous! (Score:1)
*sob* Willis gets fired. (Score:3, Funny)
Shouldn't this be titled... (Score:2)
Re:Shouldn't this be titled... (Score:2)
now that mars is in the picture - whats the area per IP upto now?
Vin Cerf's dog has a sweater... (Score:2)
Virtual Xenocide... (Score:1)
Built-in security (Score:4, Funny)
Whenever I play quake against guys from Mars, its always the same: they just stand there, and I frag 'em. They must have a latency of several minutes, at least! Other planets are even worse. I once waited all night just to download a 1k faq on Plutonian mining operations, and I can't even COUNT how many connections I've lost completely with servers on Jupiter.
Who could hack those anyway? Of course, it would take forever. Plus, as we all know (having seen Independence Day), servers in space run MacOS (otherwise how would the guy have easily uploaded a virus with his iMAC), which is a bit difficult to hack anyway.
I don't think they have anything to worry about. Except Uranus. I hear they're using unpatched IIS servers there.
Glass Spheres (Score:2)
Don't look now, but we ARE the third world. (Mars, Venus,
Re:Built-in security (Score:2, Funny)
a ploy to get to IPv6 (Score:1)
Re:a ploy to get to IPv6 (Score:1)
IPv6 is definitely needed.
Re:a ploy to get to IPv6 (Score:2)
I'd rather see... (Score:1)
Subspace Ethernet (Score:1)
Re:Subspace Ethernet (Score:1)
We could just move Mars closer to Earth.
Re:Subspace Ethernet (Score:1)
Where did you get this information? Gravity waves (if they exist) will propogate at the speed of light, like light waves. And if the gravity wave isn't there yet, there's no gravity effect. If you could somehow instantaneously transport the sun to a different solar system, it'd take the Earth 8.5 minutes to find out and start heading for interstellar space.
Re:Subspace Ethernet (Score:3, Insightful)
If the sun teleported elsewhere, Earth would be in interstellar space instantaneously!
Re:Subspace Ethernet (Score:1)
The speed of gravitational waves and "the speed of propagation" could be two different speeds, although that's just theory. http://216.239.35.100/search?q=cache:uDPNhqhck6kC: research.spinweb.com/_tp/000001fe.htm+gravity+spee d+of+light+%22gravitational+waves%22&hl=en&ie=UTF- 8 [216.239.35.100]
No one has been able to test that gravitational waves travel at the speed of light, it's speed is only inferred through Einstein's general relativity.
I don't know how one would go about broadcasting and receiving something over the speed of propagation, but it's interesting to think about.
This was already on Slashdot... (Score:1)
Remeber your physics... (Score:4, Informative)
Don't expect to be able to play Quake across the galactic sea, as you have mulit-minute ping times.
In addition, Telnet seems right out.
The most probable form of interplanetary networking, barring successful use of Bell's Theorem (it has to do with quantum physics, and it is an observed behavior that (A) two particles in contact have spins which eventually synchronize and (B) once split apart, no matter how far apart the particles are, the spins are still in perfect sync), is going to be a store-and-forward systm, like email.
You make requests for pages, a smart terrestrial gateway will spider the links appropiately, hopefully remove the bloody ads and spyware (since one must make the probabilisticly correct assumption we're going to have windows-dependants on the receiving end)... and in about 1.1-1.5t (where t is the period of time it takes for light to get between where you are Earth and back) you get your content.
This system makes bookmarking pages more important, since it could gather pages based on a pre-defined list (like checking out what's on CNN, BBC, Slashdot, etc. etc..)
Re:Remeber your physics... (Score:3, Informative)
Sorry, try again.
Re:Remeber your physics... (Score:1)
of course the direction of the 1s and 0s would have to be somehow dependent upon the inverter, but there is still uncertainty
the inverter could be created in the same way as any entanglement situation is created
within the next century, our current beliefs on superposition will most likely be disproven anyways
Re:Remeber your physics... (Score:2)
If you're talking about forcing the "1s" in one state before you even send them out, then you're encoding the message before you send it out, in which case, the message takes, well, the travel time of the package to the destination.
You can't do it. It's really too bad that the EPR experiment and Bell's Theorem get so much air time. So many people get so excited about nothing.
UUCP is the answer (Score:2)
Re:Remeber your physics... (Score:2)
Stuff like Akamai, but on a planetary scale for most major sources (or just most commonly reffered sources).
Would suck to be a bored mars colonist trying to surf the Earth web at night thou, all those old pages being un cached and stuff.
One word (Score:2)
CACHING
Better keep those cache expiration intervals high.
Re:Remeber your physics... (Score:1)
Re:Remeber your physics... (Score:4, Informative)
This isn't some sci-fi, pseudo-science. This is quantum physics we're talking about here. Unless you are one of the theorists, chances are you're a parrot. I'll readily admit I don't grasp most of it, since I'm not doing it full-time and most of the QP stuff gives me migraines on a bad day.
However, what I mentioned casually in the article (with the thirty-second explantation) is Bell's Theorem. Link provided here [utoronto.ca], here [berlinet.de], here [ncsu.edu].
Punch up Google, type in "Bell's Theorem", and enjoy stuff that makes your tiny little mind explode.
Re:Remeber your physics... (Score:3, Informative)
Bell's Theorem says that quantum mechanics is fundamentally right. Wave functions collapse instantaneously (barring a nonlocal hidden variable theory). That would seem to imply that we can send information faster than the speed of light, but that's not true - there's no information contained within the wavefunction itself. You can't send information. No. No chance. No way. No how. Go ahead. Try. You'll never be able to.
"Things" travelling faster than the speed of light is not surprising. It is normal. Imagine two planets, say, 1 light year apart from each other. Now imagine you're thousands of light years away from them, perpendicular to the line joining the two planets. Now you shine a biiig flashlight on them, and wave it back and forth between the two planets. Now think about the shadow (or "lack of flashlight") - passing back and forth. Do the math - it's going to be going back and forth at several times the speed of light.
Is this a problem? Hell no. There's no information in that "shadow". There's no way for planet A to use that shadow to transmit information to planet B (without sending it to you first, which would... well... defeat the point).
Bell's Theorem basically says that the wavefunction is the quantum analogue of the magnetic vector potential - a quantum "shadow". Yes, it propagates faster than the speed of light. No, this isn't a problem. The EPR experiment, and others similar to it that Bell's Theorem addresses, cannot be used to send FTL messages. If they could, you'd be damned sure we'd already be doing it!
I've a thought (Score:2)
Not really the interplanetary internet (Score:3, Interesting)
For all he invented the internet, Vint, whether making proposals of this kind or wielding a knife in the draughty halls of ICANN, shows no signs of putting its well-being over that of his employer.
Takes the pressure off the koreans. (Score:2)
This will take the pressure of the Koreans, first with the Lunarians, and then Martians, who will make the Lunarians look speedy.
I can't just see it now.
Diablo Player 1: Man, those fucking martians, always lagging down the game and spamming those "Give me items messages"... why don't they play with their own people. Diablo Player 2: (several minutes later) HELP ME PLEEEZ... NEED SOJ Diablo Player 1: Fucking Martians.
Duplicate archives (Score:2)
Now the problem is, who could afford to do this? Only large organizations, companies, and governments, probably. Also, sites that depend on relatively low-latency interaction (like Slashdot) rather than simple reference libraries (like dictionary.com) might not have duplicates. More likely, you'd end up with functionally-identical but content-different sites... for example, we'd still have
Re:Duplicate archives (Score:2)
But then again, even at these distances, while you would have huge latency, you could still have pretty high bandwidth. It probably wouldn't be too hard to maintain a spider that would run around and collect a local cache of the whole net. Any page requests hit the local cache and are relatively fast. The spider would take advantage of forsight to pull pages people are likely to look at (or even ALL pages) and the 42 min orund trip would be eliminated.
Orson Scott Card (Score:1)
RFC20063: IP-over-Ansible.
Note the date of the article (Score:1)
The Buggers would be proud (Score:1)
Another dream come true (Score:1)
It looks like we'll soon be able to FTP the University of Mars...
Heard this speech personally (Score:2)
Hopefully. (Score:2)
ET (Score:3, Funny)
Will the Interplanetary Net support . . . (Score:3, Funny)
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1437.html
To no good someone is up (Score:1)
At
By
About
To
About
With
I think this sentence is suffering from a severe bout of prepositional indigestion.
DDOS (Score:2)
The Poor Pigeons! (Score:4, Funny)
Incoming interstellar hen!
Two small, minor issues (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Two small, minor issues (Score:4, Insightful)
Before sending people we will send bots. And to download information from bots TCP/IP may be good choice.
Re:Two small, minor issues (Score:2)
The whole idea of this isn't some science fiction idea of humans on Mars. The real reason is that the DSN (Deep Space Network) is overloaded. It's going to have to be replaced soon, and NASA's thinking, well, why not do it with something that's extendable?
What does this do for the stock price? :-) (Score:1)
Kevin
Vint Cerf is a tool (Score:1, Troll)
End to End Security (Score:2)
Re:End to End Security (Score:2)
Well, Cerf's already had the experience of developing TCP/IP, which emphatically didn't have any useful security built in. Maybe this time he'll do a little better. Or maybe he'll get a clue and simply adopt something like DECnet or SNA which really does have protocol-level security and robustness built in.
Hack the planet (Score:1)
having been at the meeting in question... (Score:2, Insightful)
this is not "hey, I'm on mars, let me browse the 'net" stuff. this is "okay. we need to drop 50 or so data gathering probes, which need to send their info back to a central broadcast point, which will send its info to a satellite, which will send it back to earth" stuff. The reason they're developing open and standard data protocols for this should be obvious - if you craft it from scratch (as they had been doing previously) it's REALLY expensive. I found "the Interplanetery Internet" to be a bit of a misleading title myself at first. but considering that the internet was itself a research tool first and formost, this is only because of prejudices already in my head.
Bob Z and bandwidth (Score:2)