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Opera Tells EU That Microsoft's IE Hurts the Web
Posted by
Zonk
on Friday December 14, @02:25PM
from the ow-right-in-my-infrastructure dept.
from the ow-right-in-my-infrastructure dept.
kastababy writes "In yet another instance of up-and-coming browser developers fighting back against the Microsoft behemoth, the makers of Opera have filed a complaint with the European Union against Microsoft. In their complaint, they allege that IE's 77% market share abuses its dominant position by tying IE to Windows and its refusal to accept Web standards, causing significant interoperability issues. The complaint also requests that the EU's Antitrust Division force Microsoft to separate IE from Windows and accept several different standards, thereby resolving major interoperability issues and providing consumers more choice in the browser market." Update: 12/14 19:47 GMT by Z : We also discussed this yesterday.
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Your Rights Online: Opera Files EU Complaint Against Microsoft 454 comments
A number of readers have sent word about Opera Software ASA's antitrust complaint against Microsoft filed with the EU. Here is Opera's press release on the filing. The company wants the EU to "obligate Microsoft to unbundle Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers pre-installed on the desktop" and to "require Microsoft to follow fundamental and open Web standards accepted by the Web-authoring communities." The latter request makes this a case to watch. Will the Commissioner take the Acid2 test using IE7?
Opera Tells EU That Microsoft's IE Hurts the Web
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Dupe? (Score:4, Informative)
This is just sad.
Re:Dupe? (Score:5, Funny)
You must be new here.
Re:Dupe? (Score:5, Funny)
Not new enough apparently.
Re:Opera? Cry me a river... (Score:4, Interesting)
Funnily enough, I do agree with Opera on this one, though I don't use Opera.
It may be faster and nicer in many ways, but some Firefox extensions are simply way too valuable to me.
EU: hard of hearing (Score:5, Funny)
In other news... (Score:4, Funny)
about time (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:about time (Score:5, Interesting)
SVG is almost on the bottom of my wish list. How 'bout meeting the CSS 2.1 spec without having to implement any hacks? I'd be plenty happy with just that!
Question [slashdot.org]
Answer [slashdot.org]
Re:about time (Score:5, Insightful)
CSS2.1? How about they start with something simpler to fully implement, like
If there's anything I forgot, it belongs on that list. IE has never fully supported anything.
Re:about time (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's limit us to address books for example.
Outlook express 4 and 5 not compatible:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/244459 [microsoft.com]
MS outlook to MS spam software, not compatible:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/179962 [microsoft.com]
Outlook E supports folders in address book, but not exporting folders:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/241875 [microsoft.com]
That was only from the first result page using keywords address book import error... If they can't standardize on a way to store contact information, can you even claim that microsoft makes *standards*? There is nothing standardized in that company. Show me a single nontrivial webpage with CSS that looks the same in IE 5,6 and 7 WITHOUT any nonstandard hacks. Even when following Microsofts own guidelines, or software that is not possible.
Re:about time (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:about time (Score:5, Funny)
Problem in Accepting Standards (Score:4, Insightful)
But in IE's case, it seems almost to be a complete disregard for the standards.
Decoupling IE and Windows... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Decoupling IE and Windows... (Score:5, Insightful)
I, personally, have no qualms with Microsoft shipping IE with Windows. It is their product, after all. BUT they should give OEMs the option to strip it out and replace it with Firefox/Opera/Safari/K-Meleon if they so desire. Which, really, is what this is all about.
Re:Decoupling IE and Windows... (Score:4, Insightful)
What about Opera's dominance on the Nintendo Wii?
Dual-system regulation (Score:1)
Exceptions might be made for very low-cost machines.
Work to Change it (Score:2, Informative)
Opportunity (Score:1)
they spoke on behalf of ALL developers ! (Score:2)
Why separate? (Score:1)
So.... (Score:2)
(and, to dupes on Slashdot...)
Microsoft is a world wide monopoly... (Score:2)
By denying access to it's communication protocols, Microsoft inhibits competition for network services.
By creating media formats that are secret and proprietary it inhibits competition for media creation and playback.
By creating a browser that is non-standard it skews the entire browser market and online experience.
By creating document formats that are proprietary with unpublished protocols Microsoft effectively locks customers into a continuous cycle of purchases once again locking out competition.
That is why Microsoft was found guilty of being an aggressive predatory monopoly. The only reason Microsoft didn't have to face any consequences is because the Bush administration was flush with Microsoft dollars when they came to power.
Microsoft must be held to a higher standard of conduct because of it's monopoly market condition. Unfortunately, Microsoft uses it's vast wealth and power to stifle competition at every turn. Whether it's a children's learning tool in Nigeria or gaming a world standard or a groundswell of support for Linux in China, Microsoft attempts to suppress competition with bribes and corruption.
I sincerely hope the EU takes their head off because we sure can't rely on the Americans to do the right thing.
Ed
Re:Microsoft is a world wide monopoly... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know if you recall the purpose of the web. But it's main goal and design is meant be a cross-platform, cross-architecture design for handling content on the "world wide web" - granting access to all who adhere to the recommendations/standards from the formation of standard organizations such as the w3c, ISO/IEEE and others. Microsoft has broken the design of the web in ways that I consider is anti-competitive.
Embrace, break standards (so other software does not work well with Microsoft's implementation) and extend with proprietary lock-ins.
Dupe! Awesome! (Score:2)
Dupes: they're not a bug, they're a feature!
My opinion, in case anyone cares: I dislike MS and IE as much as anyone else here, but I think Opera is full of shit on this one.
Standardized IE's impact on other browsers (Score:4, Insightful)
Not necessarily. End users don't pick their browsers for standards compliance. They do pick them by questions like, "Does this browser work with my bank's website?"
If the most-used browser (IE or otherwise) is fully standards-compliant, that lowers the bar for developers to build sites that work with multiple browsers: target standards and you get something that works in IE8, Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc., instead of targeting IE6, tweaking for IE7, tweaking for Firefox, and deciding anyone running another browser is just SOL.
End result: More websites are compatible across the board, so when people try Opera, fewer of them will run it for 2 days and say, "Well, I sorta like it, but the POS browser can't handle my favorite website. I'm going back to IE."
But... (Score:2)
My Nokia 770 browser is an Opera product (Score:1, Troll)
IE came before standards (Score:2)
As I explain in detail here [slashdot.org], the issue is more complicated than most people see.
Most of us don't fit into these two sides:
1. We hate the big guy side -- Firefox is God, Linux is God, they can do no wrong, the world will be saved if we go to Linux/FF.
2. We distrust the little guy side -- Firefox is funded by Google, Firefox is a revenge project against MSFT, you get uneven results in open source, the world will be doomed if we leave browsing up to volunteers.
But enough loud people do that the truth is as usual obscured. Firefox/Linux fanboys are the Amiga fanboys of the 00s!
Opera is my favourite, but like a woman it has ... (Score:2, Informative)
I run Opera 9.24 (int) and Firefox 2.0.0.1 (de)
Opera_int (6.3 MB)
Firefox_de (5.7 MB)
1.) ODD
- Opera is very slow handling
ebay.de/.com
reichelt.de (radioshackalike)
pages, for these pages I use Firefox.
- not OpenSource
2.) Beauty
- win32/bsd/linux
- Email Client (IMAP/POP3)
- Addressbook
- lightweight
- can close all tabs (beautifull and slick)
- restores sessions faster than firefox
- Wand (Password manager) == awesome
- speeddial
- Bookmarkmanager, it's a mighty tool in contrast to FF
- abook/bookmark/mail export/import function == very good
- Widgets (addons)
- uses Mozilla Pluggins
These features are built in, and must not be installed manually,
like you would do with Plugginfox.
Well and as you can think this post was written within Opera/win2k
here comes my advise
Just try it out, and judge.
Well; (Score:2, Funny)
What about Maxthon and company? (Score:2)
Subpoena Windows Source Code (Score:1)
Since Windows is now Open Source, and a way exists for Open Source to periodically call Closed Source's cards, the nature of the playing field will be changed.
Windows is called before the court, source, build process, build, statistical analyses surrounding the build.
Yes. All that bloatware clogs the tubes. (Score:2)
IE the bady!!! (Score:2, Interesting)
Keep an old browser handy (Score:2, Interesting)
Am I the only one... (Score:1)
Opera happy... (Score:1)
Shameful! (Score:2)
Opera. Thanks. But no Thanks. (Score:1)
Apolitical (Score:2, Funny)
Not the whole way... (Score:2, Interesting)
Basically a lot of people are not able to change platforms due to one piece of software which has been in windows since windows 98... Nearly all games currently available need directx to run, which is deeply embedded in windows. If microsoft is forced to distribute directx separately from windows and charge for it per installation (per seat), I think a lot of game developers will choose a different api, thereby allowing games to be ported easier to other platforms.
Another thing: Microsoft should be stopped from tampering with the hardware market. As it stands most "cheap" motherboards and laptops have trouble running anything other then windows due to a severely foobar'ed acpi (for which we can thank the severely broken microsoft acpi compiler).
Opera, EU, and Microsoft (Score:1)
Re:Great (Score:2)
Re:Great (Score:1)
Re:Opera (Score:1)
Simple (Score:2)
That is why.... Simple isn't it.
The EU ( not all European Counties are members, Norway, Switzerland, Serbia etc) has a bigger population that the US + Canada.
Re:Waaambulance (Score:1)
Re:Opera (Score:3, Insightful)
s/Opera/Internet Explorer/ and I'll agree with you.
Re:Opera (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This message is posted using Opera (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Opera (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Been a while since I've heard of "Opera"... (Score:3, Interesting)
And, in yet another instance of duplicated posts, (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:Waaambulance (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Waaambulance (Score:5, Informative)
Microsoft will fight tooth and nail to keep IE closed source so that they can continue to use it strategically to throw a wrench into the standards. As long as stuff doesn't quite work right on IE and IE is the majority browser Microsoft can continue to stall and delay anything that challenges their dominance.
Re:Waaambulance (Score:5, Informative)
You are aware that Microsoft is a member of the W3C [w3.org], right? And that they contributed to the development of such standards as CSS2? And that Microsoft pledged to support these standards back in 1998, and yet somehow their competitors support considerably more parts of that spec than they do? (I suspect ceasing all development other than security fixes for 3-4 years had quite a bit to do with that.)
A bunch of companies didn't get together and say, "We don't like how Microsoft does the web, let's design another one." A bunch of companies including Microsoft got together and said, "Here's how we're going to design the web," Microsoft signed off on it, and then went off in their own direction.
Re:And, in yet another instance of duplicated post (Score:2)
Re:Been a while since I've heard of "Opera"... (Score:1)
Do you think that if Windows didn't come with IE that anyone would voluntarily pick IE?
Re:Waaambulance (Score:2)
Re:Been a while since I've heard of "Opera"... (Score:3, Informative)
I think it's more a case of Opera being pissed that it's not funded with Google money like Mozilla Firefox is.
Wait, so Opera is pissed at Google and Firefox, so their solution is to sue Microsoft? Oh, yeah, and who said Opera doesn't take money from Google?
If "developers" are going to "fight", how about developing something the market cares about instead, eh?
Maybe they'll appeal to the market once the market is actually choosing the best browser instead of having IE forced on it?
Re:I use Camino. . . (Score:2)
For that to be true, both browsers would need to be built using the same methodology, programming skill, management techniques and the same post-release customer response.
Keep this in mind:
There is notoriety in cracking into systems that are considered secured.
If I found a way to exploit a browser on OSX. I could get a lot of notoriety, and make money providing a solution.
Re:Waaambulance (Score:4, Informative)
No, the "IE won and thus reigns king" crowd needs to accept that IE doesn't even have its own set of standards and that this is the real root of the problem. Version to version, we see some bugs fixed, some bugs ignored, and wholly *new* ones appear. When you do a QA cycle on a site and find that IE6 actually renders something mostly okay while it totally breaks in IE7, you can see how ridiculous this is.
Yes, it's a tremendous pain in the ass when there's a standard everybody else either complies with or at least makes a sincere effort to comply with, but when the one player who doesn't follow it doesn't even prove itself to be consistent internally, the resulting product is worthless. They don't even provide any documentation as to what coding standards *should* be followed for their browser; this is why they outright recommend conditional comments [microsoft.com] as a fix for (qutoing them) "pages that display correctly in browsers other than Internet Explorer."
Now, you can either keep lying to yourself, or you can accept the fact that IE is crap and in need of either serious repair or published documentation of how to code for it, and will remain crap until such a time.
Re:Been a while since I've heard of "Opera"... (Score:2)
I don't think so. They're just coming into their own, as a light and fast mobile browser. I use Opera Mini all the time on my XDA, it makes mobile web browsing less of an annoyance and more of a useful tool.
Re:Been a while since I've heard of "Opera"... (Score:2)
Re:Opera (Score:1)
Re:Opera's Web Standards? (Score:2)
Re:Of dupes and dopes (Score:3, Insightful)
If IE supported all current standards properly, users who switched away from it to other browsers would not see so much of a difference in web content, because they would be looking at a page which should render correctly in _all_ browsers, not just one. Does anyone but me remember what Microsoft's website looked like in Firefox 1.0 before they re-did it to make it compatible?
I rest my case.
Re:Been a while since I've heard of "Opera"... (Score:2)
Fun fact: Opera is free now because of the money they get from Google. It's not as much as Mozilla gets, but then again, Opera has a significantly smaller userbase.
Re:EUTells Opera... (Score:1)
Re:I use Camino. . . (Score:2)
If IE was a standard, there would be a way beyond trial-and-error or reverse engineering for other browser manufacturers to implements its particular interpretation of HTML. Opera already do, using IE "compatibility" whenever it seems likely the user wants it, but this compatibility is something they had to spec themselves based on observing behavior.
Re:Opera's Web Standards? (Score:2)