DVD Truce Between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD?

An anonymous reader writes " Reuters is reporting that Toshiba and Sony are in talks about reconciling the two next-generation DVD formats. Ideas floated in the article include a unified DVD arch which could use "Blu-ray's disc structure and HD DVD software technology" (Sony's idea) or "HD DVD disc structure and employing Sony's multi-layer data-recording technology" (Toshiba's idea)"

Does format matter?

This article although informative, didn't do the best job in technical explanations, that is when I spotted the following line... A PC maker, for example, would not have to equip its computers with hard drives compatible with both formats.

I didn't realize the hard drive had to be made to be compatible. I guess speed could somehow come into play, but no, never mind, they don't know what they are talking about.

"It could take both camps some time to develop products based on a new standard, which leaves the risk of development delays for Sony's next-generation game console," Goldman Sachs analyst Yuji Fujimori wrote in a note to clients.

Does this really matter? Couldn't Sony still release their next PlayStation with BlueRay discs as their format? I mean, they did use UMD for the PSP, and they isn't a common format. If you know more about this let me know, but this to me would mean it could prevent more illegal copying of game discs.

Re:Does format matter?

Does this really matter? Couldn't Sony still release their next PlayStation with BlueRay discs as their format? I mean, they did use UMD for the PSP, and they isn't a common format. If you know more about this let me know, but this to me would mean it could prevent more illegal copying of game discs.

My guess would be that they want a BlueRay more widely accepted for their broader media goals, like movies and music and so forth. UMD doesn't really have that much market potential in those areas, I guess. This is pure speculation, but it's a possible answer to your question.

Re:Does format matter?

Sony wants their console to be compatible with popular media formats so they can sell more of them. Also, the PS2 helped expand the installed base of DVD players among gamers; The PS3 can help expand the installed base of (insert next-generation video standard here) among gamers, as well. That helps the format succeed. Also, it helps the PS3 succeed, because people who might not have bought one will buy it because it's a video player AND a game console - just like the PS2.

Too bad they didn't put VideoCD support in the PS, although I hear that you can get a plug-in module to do that (and play mp3s.)

Re:Does format matter?

This is pure paranoia. The author obviously meant to write "optical drives compatible with both formats".

Re:Does format matter?

Don't you people know anything?

The "hard drive" is the big metal boxy thing that sits on or under your desk and you plug your keyboard and mouse and TV into it.

It also goes by the names "CPU", "processor", "modem", "computer", "box", and "thingy". They all mean the same thing.

smart move

well, it looks like they got smart all of a sudden, because, unlike dvd+ and dvd- R and RW...bluray and HDdvd are so far apart you practically need 2 drives for total support..

not to mention the COST of bluray media...yeouch.

Re:smart move

Is it fair to judge Blu-Ray media prices now? I know there are some limited numbers of commercial products available (primarily in Japan), but it's hardly been exposed to mass production.

Are we learning yet?

Good deal- Perhaps Sony's learned lessons from "Beta" and "Memory Stick".

Without standards, there's no volume.

It's about time

Finally these guys have decided to put their egos aside and work on a compromise. If they had thought about this in the first place, imagine how much money these corporation would save on wasted R&D.

Wasted R&D?

Even if they end up using a hybrid of the two, the R&D isn't wasted. Along the way, both companies have learned a lot, including finding out a lot of things that *didn't* work.

A lot of R&D is failing and figuring out why.

It's not like we're talking about Xerox PARC, where Corporate wasted the opporunity to commercialize the wonderful things which were developed. A compromise on the new DVD format will still bring both companies/consortia licensing revenue.

Which, of course, begs the obvious question -- if they're both contributing IP, will they both be charging royalties and price the technology too high?

The age old question.

You got your chocolate in my peanutbutter.

You got your peanutbutter on my chocolate.

Too late?

So they've got to:

Sort out the details
Get out a new spec
Prototypes
Verification
etc. etc.
All before the impending releases of if nothing else the PS3 and XBox2, never mind the PC & TV players?

Why do I get the feeling that this is a token gesture never intended to resolve the disputes, but instead to allow them to look back later and say "well we TRIED to get a common format but everyone else was in too much of a hurry!" If they were really serious about a common format, they would have done it long before now.

Deceipt at it's best!

FrankenDVD...

FrankenDVD... it was born on a cold slab of stone, when Drs. Sony and Toshiba concurred. Hundreds knew better, thousands said it was unnatural and against nature, millions didn't care as long as they could watch Star Wars: Episode VII, Revenge of the Return of the Imperial Jedi Sith...

See villagers...

See Torches...

See lightning flash and hear thunder roll...

See the monster fill a small screen near you

Scream in terror as you re-purchase all your DVD collection, while in a dark sinister lab, the next format is considered...

RATED: R

Re:FrankenDVD...

KRYTEN: Frankenstein was the creator, not the monster. It's a common misconception, held by all truly stupid people.

Sorry, was that rated R+ or R- ?

RATED: R

Sorry, just to clarify... was that R+ or R-?

Blockwars [blockwars.com]: Multiplayer Tetris like game

Finally,

My DVD burning buying descision will turn out to be simpler. I have hesitated in the past because of the price and the 15 current "standards". Cheers to Sony and Toshiba !

Isn't this collusion?

I clearly do not fully understand how anti-monopoly laws work, but aren't competing companies prohibited from doing exactly this? Instead of each company selling it's product and letting the market decide which is better, they're working together to restrain the industry and keeping products that might benefit the consumer off the market. Isn't that collusion? Isn't it illegal?

Someone please explain why it's not, I really would appreciate it (not kidding here, genuinely cuious).

This is not collusion

Collusion is illegal when companies are working together to keep another company's product off the market by predatory pricing, for example. But when two companies (or consortiums) work together to choose a common standard, that is just plain good sense. The companies are wisely (I hope) seeing that the market will not welcome competing standards, and that the market (and thus their pocketbooks) are bettered by there being exactly one new DVD standard. There is no illegal activity here because no-one is being prevented from doing anything and they are not controlling prices by choosing to implement a common standard. There is no anti-competitive behavior.

Now, if the companies fixed the pricing of this standard and refused to allow anyone to undercut the pricing and used their size in the marketplace to control the availability and cost of the new DVD players, that could be collusion. If they were somehow working together (like a cartel) to prevent another company from competing in the marketspace, that might be collusion. (Depending on the tactics, etc.) However, just agreeing on a common standard does not collusion make.

The best hybrid

why not just use Blu-Ray technolgy and HD-DVD name (silid's idea)

Lets have one technology and an agreed royalty share - an effective buy-out. At least this way it will save millions in marketing in a format war, and both groups get a degree of guarenteed success.

and more importantly will allow me to enjoy the format sooner as i won't have to wait for winner.

A solution for the HD-DVD naming confusion

Will we also see a specification for the new audio and video formats on the old DVD discs?

That seems to be the meaning [apple.com] that apple gives to the term "HD DVD". Which is why I never liked the brand HD-DVD for a new otical format.

n-squared?

Uh, wait... so we just went from 2 competing formats (Blu-Ray and HD DVD) to 4 (Blu-Ray, HD DVD, Blu-Ray+HD DVD, and HD DVD+Blu-Ray)? Thats an n-squared rate of growth. Surely someone could come up with something more efficient, along the lines of nLog(n) perhaps?

A better idea!

Let's have representatives from each side to fight it out to the death! I haven't seen a good death match in a very long time.

Blu-Ray all the way!

I'm in favor of all out Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray is an actual technology to fit more data onto a disk. HD DVD is simply a format. You can still store HD DVD format using Blu-Ray technology. Also, HD DVD uses red lasers, and can only store between 4 and 7 gigs per disk. Blu-Ray can store 25 gigs on a one layered disk, 50 gigs on a dual layered disk.

Re:Blu-Ray all the way!

Wrong. [wikipedia.org] It uses a blue laser, and is 15 GB for a single-sided disc and 30 for dual-sided. I agree that Blu-Ray is better, but try and get the facts straight.

Re:Blu-Ray all the way!

Actually, HD-DVD uses the a 405nm blue laser, as Blu-Ray does, and stores 15GB (single-layer) or 30GB (dual-layer) per disc. The discs themselves have significantly different configurations, which is why the storage capabilies are different. Regards...

They're wasting their time

These new disc formats are all dead in the long run.

Perhaps not immediately, but within a few years a system will exist which will allow the streaming of any movie ever made via broadband instantly. Why would you want to bother keeping an anachronistic collection of shiny discs, when you could have anything you want, instantly.

These format wars will all look quaint in a few years when the bandwidth for home delivery of such a system is widely available.

Re:They're wasting their time

Perhaps not immediately, but within a few years a system will exist which will allow the streaming of any movie ever made via broadband instantly. Why would you want to bother keeping an anachronistic collection of shiny discs, when you could have anything you want, instantly.

Because, as we've seen, the trend in streaming media is towards temporary ownership. Sure, with DVDs, my ownership options are (supposed to be) limited -- I can't copy it, &c. -- but at least I have it forever (or at least as long as the media lasts). I'm sure still more restrictions will be in place with these new discs, but, judging from the previous market failure of `temporary discs', at least I will still have them forever.

With streaming media, it seems likely that we'd see a `pay-per-view' set-up. Besides that, what about out-of-print movies? If I buy a DVD and the manufacturer stops printing those DVDs, I can still watch it -- but what if I want to stream a DVD no one wants to host? We could lose a lot of important movies this way.

online content

When you get your content, or your applications, online, you are then at the mercy of:

1) He who controls where the content or apps are stored, controls YOU.
2) Your connetion (being up or down, or slow, or high latency)
3) Security issues

But, if you like all that, feel free to check out the Phantom gaming system; you'd probably like it. :)

Two companies working together?

Vizzini: Inconceivable!

Good and bad

Whilst I welcome this news, isn't it a bit late?

I can just imagine a last-minute solution that aims to keep the suits happy in all companies involved (so that they save face). This compromise could result in a poorly thought out and badly designed standard.

A little later, someone will release another (better) standard and we will be back to square one of having two similar but incompatible standards.

Fuck, who cares?

You know, we haven't even fully exploited the potential of current DVDs so I am not exactly in a hurry to have 4-5 kinds of media to juggle. I am cool with just CD-R, and DVD+R/DVD-R (I never use the "W" rewriteable media myself, it tends to be dodgy). While good DVD burners will burn either + or - variety media, soon we shall have the dual layer disks in greater profusion and that will be a new kind of media requiring new hardware. Where does it end and what's the point of it? Why should we care?

HD seems like a big ripoff to me. The benefit is just not worth the price, there are too many issues to contend with. I am still perfectly happy with my plain old DVD player and jumbo CRT type TV. I get the sharpest picture that way even if it's not 10 feet wide. Hell, I am only sitting 5-10 feet away from it anyway.

This new media shit is just that - shit.

Bah...

I think they need to trash discs as a whole and record everything on little green holographic cubes... How stinking cool would that be. :-P Funny that i saw this done on TV like 7 years ago....and nothing has really come from it at all. Kinda makes me wonder why.

Color me skeptical

They're each talking about keeping their own core hardware and layering the other's controllers and software on top of them. But of course it's the hardware that's the key piece. If they use the same core technology it doesn't matter much what the rest is: they could easily produce a dual-format drive with the rest of the differences fudged in firmware.

So it sounds like they're both saying "Be reasonable, do it my way".

The best format of all...

...would be one that allows me to buy a single season of a one-hour drama on 1 to 2 discs for no more that an average price of $10/disc. Maybe $15 if it's only a single disc. I don't want to spend $51 for Stargate SG-1, $75 for CSI, or $106 for Star Trek Voyager.

Not in this lifetime

Prices are not even remotely linked to media costs/capacity! DVDs cost LESS to make yet sell for MORE than VHS. CDs cost LESS to make yet sold for MORE than audio tape.

If they want to charge you a lot for it, they still will. You erally think the scum will say "oh, since it all fits on one disc now instead of 4 saving us $0.40, we'll only charge you $20 instead of $100?"

HAHAHAHAHA! Not likely. Saddam becoming the next Pope was a much safer bet than that. Reality is that what you'll hear from their mouths is "BluHDRayDVD is 100x better, so we'll charge you 2x as much. You win by a factor of 50, aren't we kind?"

This can only mean one thing..

This can only mean one thing.. They've decided to join forces against their common enemy -- the consumer..

Better solution.

Let's let the Chineese come up with a OPEN solution that doesn not belong to anyone and has no royalties attached to it.

i'm betting THAT one would be accepted by everyone within minutes.

I have a compromise

We allow them to use either DVD technology - as long as the one that's not used gets 75% of the profits.

We stay 50/50 on the storage medium - sign that into law, and see which corporation switches it's stance faster.

Blu-Ray wins!

While I could care less what "data format" is used, the Blu-Ray disc itself is far superior in capacity and data rate, and I'm glad it won.

With a paltry 15mbit per second, HD-DVD's disc would not have a high enough data rate to encode 1080p video in MPEG4 (or any other codec) at any reasonable quality, essentially crippling HD until the next generation. (For comparison, the highest bitrate allowed in DVD video is 10mbit. D-VHS allows 30 mbit, Blu-Ray allows over 50mbit (section 3, bottom of page 5) [blu-raydisc.com])

Of course, more space per disc is always nice. Whether you're just trying to cram the Janitor's Commentary track into the extras, or providing Star Trek with a Klingon subtitle track, every little bit helps. More space also allows for movies to use that 50mbps data rate for longer periods of time. Fans of superbit DVDs would drool all over the promise of superbit Blu-Ray discs.

hurry up already

They're going to screw around and screw around and, this time next year, holographic storage will beat them to the punch with a much greater storage capacity.

Is the market really ready?

I'm still not convinced that we even need a next-generation format. HDTV is insanely scarce outside of the US [and most "HDTV" units already in the US are 480P EDTV anyway and most of the ones that actually are HD are rear projection units sitting in sunny rooms with the factory settings intact] and DVD is the most successful format in history. Obviously Hollywood wouldn't mind due to what I'm sure is much stronger DRM on new formats but we currently have two superior formats to CD and for consumers the convenience of lower-quality sound from digital files is winning out. Only a tiny percentage of audio nerds [and it's even a fraction of them because many audiophiles are terrified of any digital equipment] have bought into the new formats and they're people who ahve no problems with rebuying their favorite music over and over. The same may happen with movies.

Look at Laserdisc - far better picture and sound than VHS, no rewinding and pretty good studio support for a while but the cost, convenience and durability advantages of tapes won out in the end.

Storage Technology up in the Air

When it is all done and said, " I dont know if
Blu-Ray / HD-DVD, Holographic Storage or some
other technology will rule the day."

We all need to stay tuned because the storage
landscape is about ready for a Tsunami Attack.

Interesting Thought...

Could Sony be doing this to delay the XBox360 release? Microsoft has been gaining a ton of momentum with software developers of late, something it never had with the current xbox.

Microsoft will most definately hold off releaseing the next xbox if the new DVD standard's release is impending. That'll give Sony a nice window to get caught up.

It's a bold move, but I think it could help Sony immensely if the timing is right.

I thought the pr0n industry had decided this

What happened to the rumor that the porn industry had gotten together and decided to support [one format or the other]? Thus the rest of the media would follow since they represent 1/[your number between 1 and 6 here] of all DVDs sold.

Well it makes a good story anyway.

I don't care what physical format is used...

Just as long as the data is encoded in the format that DVD Jon favors.

Trouble with HD-DVD (tin-foil hat time)

The trouble with HD-DVD is that its capacity is insufficient for 3 hours of true HDTV (in fact, its barely sufficient for 2 hours).

Just a guess is that Hollywood would prefer to sell us HD-DVD's (you know, the ones we just bought in DVD format) in some intermediate format, and then in another 5 years, sell us the same movies again in yet a better format.

Plus, it doesn't match up with expectations. If a CD holds 700M and a DVD (single layer) holds 4.7 G, then you expect the information density to increase by a factor of 7 with a new generation. Therefore, you'd expect about 30G from a new format.

HD DVD just doesn't cut it. It doesn't work for data storage, it doesn't work for HDTV.

I don't know anything about Blu-Ray and I frankly don't care. I just know that HD-DVD is too little.

Gimme a blue laser pointer

Fuck the drives - I want one of these blue lasers.

All they really have to do...

..is engineer a player that can read both types of physical media, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. They can work on common data formats too if they want (it would probably be nice), but that's just software. A common player is what's REALLY needed.

Once consumers are assured their player can play whatever they buy, there can be two types of media on the market and it's okay. Publishers can use the cheaper or better media; consumers can choose the cheaper titles, or the higher-resolution / higher-bitrate / fewer-compression-artifacts / longer-playing titles (can you guess my favorite? Yep, Blu-Ray).

Nash's Game Theory

"We both profit more if we cooperate."

Waiting...

Until a true 1080p TV costs less then a car, and the next generation media is under a dollar... why should I care exactly?

99% of the 10% of humans that even have a computer, don't care about any of this until it's AFFORDABLE. By which time, the margins will be so low that none of this battle will matter. And I'd bet backups to IDE will still be cheaper TCO-wise.

Also, a system with 10x the storage will be out in a year.

space

As long as it has 50 GB of space and not that wimpy 30 GB that HD-DVD has.

it dont look like they are working together

Ideas floated in the article include a unified DVD arch which could use "Blu-ray's disc structure and HD DVD software technology" (Sony's idea) or "HD DVD disc structure and employing Sony's multi-layer data-recording technology" (Toshiba's idea)"

Looks like they are still fighting.

Article is Bunk

Sorry for all of you hoping for some Standard, but in one of the professional Home Video (sorry, should say commercial Home video Rental magazines, don't remember which one, my work gets them.) had a talk with Sony head of BluRay Development and had a quote that said

'the only Reconcilement that would be fesible is to have the HD DVD camp Join the BluRay Camp...'

Which I find rather annoying, since I feel that Both Opticle mediums suck, give me flash or some hybridized HDD that would store data.

Re:cost??

Really?

I prefer whichever is the best (usually the most expensive). I've always been like that. Sometimes it's also the most popular, and sometimes it isn't, but as long as I'm happy I don't really mind.

I got a C64 (instead of a Spectrum), an Amiga (instead of an ST), a Betamax (instead of VHS), a widescreen TV (instead of a 3:4 one), surround sound (instead of stereo), Opera web browser (instead of IE), etc.

In the end, if the cheaper option doesn't do what you want, then you have wasted your money. If you get the best and pay a bit more, you have something that has given you more value for money. That's the way I see it anyway.

---
Help me get a free Opera licence. Click here [opera.com]. It just takes you to their site - nothing nasty. Close the page after that.

Re:cost??

I think cost is really only a factor when starting out. Just like any technology released, the more it's used, the cheaper it becomes.

I would rather have the better technology become the standard (whether it's Blue-Ray, HD-DVD or a combination of both). Whichever one becomes the standard, will be cheap eventually.

Re:cost??

With all things one must consider more than just the original cost of the device. I see all these duo layer dvd recorder now and wondered if I should buy one of them until I looked into the cost of the blank media. One disk is $7 and is not even rewritable. I just purchased 25 dvd+rw disk for about the same price which means I got over 12 times as much storage. I for one hope that I will not need or want the new disk as I hope that broadband will increase it's speed to the point where I will not need local storage.