Follow Slashdot stories on Twitter

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Linux Business Caldera

SCO Responds to OSDL Legal Aid Announcement 473

Greyfox writes "SCO has issued a response to the earlier OSDL legal aid announcement. Basically the same old story, noting: 'If vendors feel so confident with the intellectual property foundation under their massive contributions into Linux, then they should put their money where their mouth is and protect end users with true vendor-based indemnification.' The release also refers us to their SCOSource web site, which they claim in their announcement shows 'proof' of infringement. I was unable to find any such 'proof' other than their claim that they own errno.h. Since I'm obviously too much of an idiot to find the 'proof' they claim they're showing, maybe someone else could go look and tell me where it is."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

SCO Responds to OSDL Legal Aid Announcement

Comments Filter:
  • System V (Score:4, Insightful)

    by numbski ( 515011 ) * <numbskiNO@SPAMhksilver.net> on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:01PM (#7955659) Homepage Journal
    They claim to own System V, but give no evidence regarding linux ownership.

    Unless System V == Linux

    I don't think so.

    Solaris...well....
    • Re:System V (Score:5, Interesting)

      by gwernol ( 167574 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:13PM (#7955806)
      They claim to own System V, but give no evidence regarding linux ownership.

      They do indeed claim System V. They also claim that this ownership (in the form of copyright to the source code and design, I believe) automatically extends to all works derived in part or whole from System V.

      Unless System V == Linux

      This means that according to their claim, Linux in fact does not have to be the same as System V, it only has to be derived from it for them to have ownership of (part of) the Linux source code.

      IANAL, but it seems to me that this claim of derivation is extremely tenuous. But copyright law does recognize the general notion of derived works, so its just possible that they are right about this. It will take a court - and probably several appeals courts - to decide this.

      Even if they did establish that their copyright of System V gave them rights to derived works in the way they are claiming, I suspect they would also need to separately show that Linux was derived from System V in that way.

      Again, their claim is not so much that specific blocks of code have been copied from their codebase into Linux, but that the general specifications and design (as well as code) of System V is present in Linux. If they are right about this then recoding specific infringing code may not be enough to satisfy the courts.

      I suspect their case is deeply flawed, but it does seem at least based in a reading of the law.
      • Re:System V (Score:4, Interesting)

        by plj ( 673710 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:37PM (#7956121)
        But copyright law does recognize the general notion of derived works, so its just possible that they are right about this.

        Well, this is still seems to be mostly U.S. problem.

        In Finland - and I think in many other European countries too - the copyright law does not know about derivative works; you can draw Donald Ducks here without paying any royalties for Disney, as long as the stories are your own.

        So maybe Linus should just return home to Helsinki and mail Darl that your law doesn't apply to me. ;-)

        But well... I sorta agree that claiming Linux illegal in U.S. could somewhat disturb its development...
        • Re:System V (Score:4, Informative)

          by harlows_monkeys ( 106428 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @05:09PM (#7956528) Homepage
          In Finland - and I think in many other European countries too - the copyright law does not know about derivative works; you can draw Donald Ducks here without paying any royalties for Disney, as long as the stories are your own.

          Wrong. Finland adopted the Berne Convention, which includes pretty much the same rules about derivative works that US copyright law does.

        • Re:System V (Score:3, Interesting)

          by arivanov ( 12034 )
          Well, this is still seems to be mostly U.S. problem.

          Not really. The most interesting parts of system V have been through an industry standard process where representatives of ATT, Novell and SCO/Caldera were present. If they attempt to put any claims to anything that has gone through that process they are up to the same serious shafting as RamBus(t).

          Actually, it is interesting that IBM did not put this in their counterclaims. Possibly they are holding that one in reserve just in case SCO wins. Because,

      • Re:System V (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Deusy ( 455433 ) <<charlie> <at> <vexi.org>> on Monday January 12, 2004 @05:22PM (#7956687) Homepage
        I suspect their case is deeply flawed, but it does seem at least based in a reading of the law.

        This would be an acceptable statement iff the BSD lawsuits did not exist.

        System V from the BSD OSes is public domain. That has been decided by a court of law.

        Correct me if I'm wrong, but this BSD fallout all happened around the time that Linux was born. Which would make it quite logical that Linux could have taken the System V code at the time, which has since been iterated over time and time again.

        Derived works of public domain code, maybe. Derived works of SCO IP? No.

        They have no case. There is no reading of law basis to their case. It's something printed on much smaller sheets and, worryingly for the western world, more important than law.

        Don't you know? The SCO Group and all the individuals associated with it have made a fucking fortune. And you can bet your bottom dollar they're gonna milk it for every dime they can.

        Worse still, it's an identical principle to the one the US government uses. If you repeat a lie enough, eventually it becomes a truth that people are willing to accept. And then you can get away with highway robbery with their approval.

        Please, by saying that "they have a case based in a reading of law" you are not only being patronising, but condoning what should be and could be a criminal act and one that they will get away with.
        • Re:System V (Score:3, Informative)

          by endx7 ( 706884 )

          System V from the BSD OSes is public domain. That has been decided by a court of law.

          Noo....As far as I know headers might public domain (only one way to implement it, yada yada), but the rest is still copyrighted. The difference is the license the BSDs are distributed under is extremely unrestricting. Free of most all restrictions and public domain are different things.

        • Re:System V (Score:5, Insightful)

          by danb35 ( 112739 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @07:08PM (#7957705) Homepage
          System V from the BSD OSes is
          public domain. That has been decided by a court of law.
          No, that has not been decided by a court of law. The judge in the BSD case, in non-binding dicta, expressed doubt that any copyright on the SysV codebase could be enforced. However, since that issue wasn't actually before him at the time, that statement isn't binding on anybody (though if SCO ever gets around to filing a copyright infringement action against anybody based on SysV copyrights, it'll almost certainly be introduced to try to persuade the relevant court).

          Now, if the judge had written something to the effect of "I find that there is no enforceable copyright in the SysV code", any copyright claim based on that material would be immediately sunk. Since he didn't, such a claim would still be sunk, but it'd take more work to sink it.

      • Re:System V (Score:5, Informative)

        by Crispy Critters ( 226798 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @06:27PM (#7957368)
        "This means that according to their claim, Linux in fact does not have to be the same as System V, it only has to be derived from it for them to have ownership of (part of) the Linux source code."

        You have to be careful to interpret the law using the legal definition of derived work, not a vernacular definition.

        A derived work contains material that is covered by copyright taken from another work.

        Imagine I take some numbers from a table in your book to make a graph to put in my book. In a colloquial sense you might say my work is derived from yours, but it is not a derived work in the legal sense, because all I took was information, which is not protected under copyright law.

        To justify a claim that Linux is a derived work, SCO would need to identify specific elements copied and show that these elements are protected by copyright law. In theory, non-literal elements in the design could be protected, but given the great variety of Unix-y operating systems that exist and the complicated history of their dissemination, it would be difficult to protect non-literal elements unless they exist uniquely in SysV.

    • Re:System V (Score:3, Informative)

      by nate1138 ( 325593 )
      Solaris...well....

      Well, it's irrelevant, since Sun holds a license from SCO.
  • Pfft! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:01PM (#7955662)
    If SCO feel so confident with the intellectual property foundation under their Linux kernel personality, then they should put their money where their mouth is and protect end users with true vendor-based indemnification for all 5 of its remaining UNIXWARE customers.
    • Since I'm obviously too much of an idiot to find the 'proof' they claim they're showing, maybe someone else could go look and tell me where it is.


      If ever a post cried out for a goatse troll linked behind the words, "here's the proof", this would be it!

      Sorry, but I just can't bring myself to actually do it...

  • Not tired of it yet (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Ryosen ( 234440 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:02PM (#7955667)
    While some people are tired of the daily (hourly?) SCO update, I, for one, am not. This is a fascinating story and the first true (iirc) challenge to the open source movement. The outcome is much more important than the future of Linux, or even OSS in general. If you're tired of the stories, filter them out.
    • Preach it, brother.
    • I would if Slashdot would make an SCO-specific filter.
      • by Chmarr ( 18662 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:12PM (#7955793)
        Why not filter on 'Caldera' ?... that'll do exactly what you're asking for.
        • by Tim C ( 15259 )
          No it won't - I alrady have Caldera filtered. Unfortunately, I don't have "Businesses", "Linux Businesses" or "Technology/IT" filtered, which are the other categories this story is in.

          In fact, judging from the "main" icon (the one next to the story), I'd assume that this is in Linux businesses primarily, with a sub-categorisation of the others, including Caldera. Thus, my filtering is to no avail.

          Of course, nothing was stopping me (or the OP) from simply *ignoring* the story... ;-)
      • I would if Slashdot would make an SCO-specific filter.

        They do, except it's labeled Caldera.
        • Not intended to be a troll, but why do people bother commenting that they don't like seeing SCO stories? I mean, if I don't like potato peelers, I don't hang out in the kitchen utensils aisle and reminding the customers of my beliefs.

          I...[gasp]...go somewhere else.

          • by Pharmboy ( 216950 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @08:35PM (#7958393) Journal
            Not intended to be a troll, but why do people bother commenting that they don't like seeing SCO stories? I mean, if I don't like potato peelers, I don't hang out in the kitchen utensils aisle and reminding the customers of my beliefs.

            Its very misleading. They don't really mean to say "I hate all these SCO stories". What they really mean to say is "I love to bitch about something, and the SCO stories are a great bandwagon to jump on".

            I see all kinds of stories that are meaningless to me. As a matter of fact, MOST of the stories on slashdot are not of interest to me, but they are to others, and thats the idea, to appeal to a broad audience.

            The SCO situation is one of the more important issues to ever face Linux, GPL and Open Source in general. Ever. While most of us have faith that the courts will see the light, we know that we can't take this for granted. (ie: OJ) This will hopefully answer lots of legal questions on Linux, and in the end, be to the benefit of Linux and the GPL. Even the people bitching know this.

            My conclusion is very simple: They just want to bitch, and like many other llamas, they are just following yet more llamas, and using SCO stories as a target for their bitching. Since it takes 100x more effort to post and complain than to ignore, this is obvious.
    • by NMerriam ( 15122 ) <NMerriam@artboy.org> on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:11PM (#7955788) Homepage
      I agree completely.

      What excites me is that this potential major court case involving open source will not be a david and goliath mismatch as I always feared would cast an unfair chill on free software.

      Having IBM and Intel (among others) battling to protect the GNU license and clarify code ownership will ensure that the OSS side can't be simply defeated by burying them in paperwork and expensive legal maneuvers.
    • by vinton ( 161350 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:41PM (#7956184)
      My theory is that this is yet another golden age of slashdot trolling. Not since Jon Katz was writing regularly could someone get modded up for a post as off-topic, unimaginative, inflammatory, and whiny as "I don't want to read this. You guys suck!".
      • by Anonymous Coward
        Not since Jon Katz was writing regularly

        Wouldn't a Jon Katz editorial on the whole SCO deal be such a perfect topper to all this absurdity?

        C'mon, Jon... we know you're listening. Give us the write-up!

    • by Greyfox ( 87712 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @05:36PM (#7956856) Homepage Journal
      Oh is it supposed to go in "Caldera"? I was looking for a separate "SCO" category and didn't see one. I suggest one be added, with a thumbnail image of the goatse.cx guy as the graphic (Assuming we can get his permission of course, don't wanna violate his copyright...)
  • by grub ( 11606 ) <slashdot@grub.net> on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:02PM (#7955668) Homepage Journal

    By now I'm sure everyone now knows that entering "miserable failure" and clicking "I'm Feeling Lucky" on Google will bring them to a certain politician's homepage.. well if everyone reading this were to link "litigious bastards" to SCO's website [sco.com] on their webpages..

    Ya never know :)
  • Say..... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by devphaeton ( 695736 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:03PM (#7955685)
    Isn't today ShutUP or PutUP Day for SCO?

    How long until we know how this shakes out in court? :o)
    • Yeah, I think you're right. Maybe they're waiting to drop the bomb online until after they've showed everyone up in court.

      Or maybe they really are just full of it.

      Damon,
    • Re:Say..... (Score:5, Informative)

      by JoeD ( 12073 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:06PM (#7955730) Homepage
      Tomorrow, according to Groklaw [groklaw.net].
      • Re:Say..... (Score:5, Informative)

        by Yobgod Ababua ( 68687 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:09PM (#7955756)
        And even then it'll probably be a few days before IBM can look over whatever SCO gives them tomorrow, and possibly some unspecified period after that before information about what 'it' is starts leaking out.

        Breath-holding is likely to be ill-advised.
        • Yeah. Ten dollars say that they deliver the whole kernel source (or a vast majority of it) and say that that's the infringing code. We're not going to be seeing CVS commit logs or detailed timelines.

          Unless, of course, SCO actually has something legitimate that we've all missed. I can't say I'm very worried.

          • Re:Say..... (Score:4, Informative)

            by canajin56 ( 660655 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @05:43PM (#7956927)
            They did that last time. IBM complained. The Judge agreed with IBM and gave SCA a verbal reaming, and told them EXACTLY what they have to give, with no room for doubt. He said they need a list of file names, version numbers, and line numbers for each case of infrigment.
    • Re:Say..... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by axlrosen ( 88070 ) *
      Isn't today ShutUP or PutUP Day for SCO?

      Yes, but:

      "I have been seeing a lot of expectations about Monday, but personally, I don't expect to know much until the next court date on the 23rd, if SCO is being truthful and actually does turn over significant answers and documents. SCO may have media pronouncements to make, but IBM has to look over what they are given and evaluate it and that takes time. They aren't given to trying this case in the media, so my best guess is that our next event in the IBM matte
  • by hotspur_fan ( 210395 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:03PM (#7955689)
    The word proof never appears in the pr response. So I guess the quotes around proof in Greyfox's post are the hand-waving quotes, not the quote-unquote quotes.
    • The press release refers to "evidence" at the scosource site, but I looked and was unable to find any. It might be hidden somewhere, or I'm an idiot because SCO says they've been completely honest and forthcoming with that evidence.
      • The actions of these vendors today doesn't change the fact that SCO's intellectual property is being found in Linux. Commercial end users of Linux that continue to use SCO's intellectual property without authorization are in violation of SCO's copyrights. SCO continues to publicly show evidence of this infringement.

        A post at Linux Daily news had an interesting take. Sentence one makes a true statement because we all know SCO (as Caldera) contributed to the kernel. Sentence 2 is also a true statement as u
  • by warlockgs ( 593818 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:05PM (#7955710)
    Call me crazy, but isn't that basically what the legal defense fund is? Vendor-based indemnification usually == the vendor will pay legal fees etc. if you wind up in court for using product X. Considering OSDL is technically a linux "vendor" (i.e. they "manufacture" portions of the "product" and distribute it....) and since the OSDL is basically a community figurehead type operation and Linux is a community project.... you can tell where I am going with this right? ;)
    • by Jaywalk ( 94910 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @05:00PM (#7956426) Homepage
      but isn't that basically what the legal defense fund is?
      Nope. A legal defense fund agrees to pay for your lawyers. An indemnification means you'll pay for any judgements against you. This is the worst of both worlds for SCO. It means that if they sue some dinky little Linux shop they can be up against top-notch lawyers, but without a hope of getting at the money that pays those lawyers.

      The reason the big players haven't wanted to offer indemnification on SCO's terms is that it allows the possibility of SCO getting some money. Suppose IBM offered indemnification for its Linux users and one of those users -- without IBMs knowledge -- did something improper with UNIX and Linux. Depending on how the indemnification is worded, IBM could be on the hook for the legal judgement. IANAL, but I believe that the size of the judgement is often based on the defendant's ability to pay. SCO could wind up spending huge bucks in legal bills for chicken feed.

      And the truly shocking part: it looks like Wall Street noticed. The story showed up in the newspapers around noon, so I figure the release must have happened a couple of hours before that. And look at what happened to SCO's stock [yahoo.com] right around ten.

  • by lightspawn ( 155347 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:05PM (#7955712) Homepage
    The Scottish/Irish prefix Mc [houseofnames.com] means "son of".

    Son of.. the bride? It seems she has already given birth before the wedding ceremony. Which means the baby was born out of wedlock.

    So it's obvious the CEO of SCO hails from a long line of bastards.
  • by PeteQC ( 680043 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:05PM (#7955714)
    Woah, nobody must have pay the 699$ because they don't seem to be able to buy themselves a decent scanner so their exhibit would be readable!
  • The release also refers us to their SCOSource web site, which they claim in their announcement shows 'proof' of infringement. I was unable to find any such 'proof' other than their claim that they own errno.h. Since I'm obviously too much of an idiot to find the 'proof' they claim they're showing, maybe someone else could go look and tell me where it is."

    No, see, you misread their site. They aren't claiming to own errno.h. That is there official statement - as in:

    IBM: Show us the infringing code.

    SCO: Um, well, Err..... NO!

  • by bstadil ( 7110 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:06PM (#7955725) Homepage
    Darl Presenting the sum total of the evidence [buz.org] today outside the court house in Saltlake City.

    Look how Darl has aged, this has clearly taken its toll.

    • U.K. Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain waving the "Peace in Our Time" document whereby Germany agreed to play nice in Europe and never to go to war with England again.

      In 1938.

      We all know what happened next.

      Darl's "proof" probably has as much value as Neville's scrap of paper.
  • by Romancer ( 19668 ) <`moc.roodshtaed' `ta' `recnamor'> on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:07PM (#7955734) Journal
    Why can't we all just find an automated form to sue SCO for violating the GPL? There's got to be one online these days with all the lawsuits.

  • No fair! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Krow10 ( 228527 ) <cpenning@milo.org> on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:07PM (#7955737) Homepage
    If vendors feel so confident with the intellectual property foundation under their massive contributions into Linux, then they should put their money where their mouth is and protect end users with true vendor-based indemnification.
    In other words, Hey, no fair! This makes it so it isn't cheaper for a company to defend itself against our frivolous litigation without giving us a rich insurance company to intimidate! Tough luck, Darl!

    Cheers,
    Craig

  • by Dark Lord Seth ( 584963 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:08PM (#7955745) Journal
    From: Darl McBride [dmcbride@sco.com]
    To: OSDL Staff [abuse@osdl.org]
    Subject: A message from his majesty.

    To whom it may concern,

    Now you have done it. I am not amused and if you don't quit defending yourselves, I'll say it again! Also, out of frustration, I kicked my pekinese cat and refused to feed Chriss Sontag and Laura DiDio. I hope you are happy with the pain and suffering you are causing!

    Love, Darl.

    PS,
    Call me!

  • by u-235-sentinel ( 594077 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:08PM (#7955749) Homepage Journal
    "If vendors feel so confident with the intellectual property foundation under their massive contributions into Linux, then they should put their money where their mouth is and protect end users with true vendor-based indemnification," said Darl McBride, president and CEO, The SCO Group, Inc."

    ::sigh:: This is such a bunch of crap. I called up Microsoft and asked them about this. I'm running XP Pro (for gaming only... honest!) and wanted to know what if SCO started the same crap against Microsoft end users. Will I be indemnified for the use of their product? The answer was of course yes. Ok.. so how much then? If I'm reading the EULA correctly, I'm protected up to the purchase price of the product. So OEM that's what? $100? $150? They were unable to answer my question unfortunately. I think we all know what the answer is however.

    "The actions of these vendors today doesn't change the fact that SCO's intellectual property is being found in Linux."

    I can see it now. At then end when they are crushed. Daryll will say "Honest... we thought we owned the IP. It's not my fault!" Only thing he could say to try and stay outta jail.

    SCO is full of it.
  • The press release claimed their was evidence that SCOs IP was in Linux, and even provided a link. But I couldn't find any. Has anyone poked around scosource.com enough to find a deep link to this alleged evidence?
  • So far it's [OSDL] raised $3 million from a group of companies that includes IBM, MontaVista Software and Intel.

    link [com.com]

  • No SCO proof, but (Score:5, Informative)

    by narfbot ( 515956 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:09PM (#7955763)
    "Since I'm obviously too much of an idiot to find the 'proof' they claim they're showing, maybe someone else could go look and tell me where it is."

    This is not SCO proof, I couldn't find any either, but proof that SCO is laying claim to code they did not write:
    http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kern el&m=107 212616605523&w=2
  • Look! Over There! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by TurboStar ( 712836 ) * on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:09PM (#7955765)
    I don't get it? Isn't the legal fund a type of indemnification? What kind of indemnification do I get from any software company? As far as I can tell it only protects me from being sued if I follow their license. What if they sold me something they had no legal right to sell? Akin to me buying a stolen radio. Aren't I screwed here when the licensed is deemed invalid in the courts? And when was the last time you got a software vendor to warrant their product for a particular use. Or what about lost revenue due to defects in the product? All this talk about indemnification seems like a distraction technique to me.
    • Re:Look! Over There! (Score:3, Interesting)

      by IPFreely ( 47576 )
      The difference between a Legal fund and indemnification would be like this:

      Legal fund: We have this much money to defend you with. I hope it's enough.

      Indemnification: We take full responsibility. Any legal action will come completely though us, no matter the cost.

      You can see why not very many companies do it.

  • The company also announced plans to make binary run time licenses for SCO's intellectual property available to end users. The license would apply to all commercial users of Linux based on a 2.4 or later kernel.

    Why, dear SCO, is there a difference between a commercial user and a hobbyist all of the sudden? I hereby deem myself a commercial user. Come and get me.
  • by ewhac ( 5844 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:10PM (#7955774) Homepage Journal

    With respect to SCO's claims on errno.h, perhaps copyright historians/experts can help me out here:

    Since when did the association of a number (e.g. 12) and its specific meaning in a specific context (EACCES: Permission denied when accessing a file) become copyrightable?

    Does this mean I can assert copyrights over /etc/X11/rgb.txt?

    Schwab

    • by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:47PM (#7956261) Homepage
      The paragraphs of such things as e.g. building codes are obviously copyrightable in the US. "The association of a number and its specific meaning in a specific context" sounds pretty much exactly like paragraph numbers and their related meaning.

      "Sorry, your building application is rejected under paragraph 14." "Can I get a copy of what paragraph 14 says, so I can correct it?" "No, it is copyrighted, you have to *buy* a copy." "And if I don't want to?"

      As for the rest of the conversation, it'll go something like this (adopted from Douglas Adam's The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

      "But Mr. Dent, the building code has been available in the government office for the last nine months."
      "Oh yes, well, as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."
      "But the code was on display..."
      "On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
      "That's the display department."
      "With a flashlight."
      "Ah, well, the lights had probably gone."
      "So had the stairs."
      "But look, you found the building code, didn't you?"
      "Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display on the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard.'"

      Even so, while they'll have a much harder time copyrighting error codes, rather than complex building codes, there's no clear precendent you can point to and outright dismiss the claim. It'll be word against word until settled by a judge.

      I know they wouldn't be copyrightable here (in Norway). But then again DeCSS is legal here as well. What's that? You claim we're hiding Osama here? Invade? Aiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!!!!

      Kjella
  • by teamhasnoi ( 554944 ) <teamhasnoi@yahoo. c o m> on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:13PM (#7955801) Journal
    But I am not going to tell you which one out of hundreds of millions PuddingCups it's in. You might take the proof out and enjoy the pudding!

    Signed,
    Darl McCosby

  • SCO's FAQ (Score:5, Informative)

    by fuxoft ( 161836 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:14PM (#7955819) Homepage
    SCO has interesting FAQ over here [sco.com]. It seems to me it contains several points I haven't read before.
    • Re:SCO's FAQ (Score:3, Interesting)

      by big_groo ( 237634 )
      45. I am running BSD. Am I required to purchase a license?

      No, you do not need to purchase a SCO IP license to run BSD.

      Veeery...interesting....
    • 36. Does the SCO IP License for Linux include a media kit?

      No. Nothing needs to be installed on the client, server or embedded device. ...great. so you've just purchased literally nothing. Good job, dumbass.
  • You know... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Cytlid ( 95255 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:15PM (#7955836)
    ...I should just shell out the $699 for my "license". By the time they're done compiling all the different options I want for my kernel(s) (applying patches, maintenance, testing kernels, new features, etc), I bet they'd lose that $699 in manhours in the first week! And that'd only be for one cpu!

    Just goes to show how rediculous it all is.
  • by junkymailbox ( 731309 ) * on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:16PM (#7955853)
    went to check this out: Binary Licensing Program [sco.com]


    Gotta love #6 and #45:

    6. Why doesn't SCO just simply publish this code so that it can be taken out of Linux if it is indeed infringing? And why do you require a non-disclosure agreement to view some of this infringing code?


    Intellectual property forms the basis of the value of any software vendor. IP is confidential throughout the industry to protect competitive advantages one vendor has over another. Other industry vendors such as Microsoft and Apple do not routinely contribute their IP as vendors spend millions of dollars creating a competitive market.



    SCO has confidentiality clauses in all of our contracts with more than 6,000 licensees that specifically state that this UNIX source code has to be held in confidence. If SCO published this UNIX source code, SCO itself would be in violation of these contracts.


    SCO has a legal obligation to hold this source code in confidence, so it requires that individuals who view this code sign a non-disclosure in order to see it.

    #45


    . I am running BSD. Am I required to purchase a license?

    No, you do not need to purchase a SCO IP license to run BSD.

    • > If SCO published this UNIX source code, SCO itself
      > would be in violation of these contracts.

      Of course, SCO has already published some offending UNIX source code (in its opinion). Has it violated its confidentiality clauses?

      If not, they're playing with words, most likely. "this UNIX source code" could just be a reference to the whole body of UNIX source code it got (has on loan) from Novell. If they published *the* UNIX source code, yes, they'd be in hot water.

      Sorry if any of the above was vauge
  • by herrvinny ( 698679 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:16PM (#7955859)
    If some Linux guru could answer this quickly: I thought SCO was saying that only Linux kernel 2.4.x+ infringed on SCO's intellectual property. But don't the files SCO shows as evidence exist in previous kernels? Thanks.

    • If some Linux guru could answer this quickly: I thought SCO was saying that only Linux kernel 2.4.x+ infringed on SCO's intellectual property. But don't the files SCO shows as evidence exist in previous kernels? Thanks.


      I believe you're right. SCO's gamble is that the majority of people would listen to law and lawyers as their "proof" rather than listen to the hairy-scary magicological technical people.
  • by fiannaFailMan ( 702447 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:21PM (#7955911) Journal
    If vendors feel so confident with the intellectual property foundation under their massive contributions into Linux, then they should put their money where their mouth is and protect end users with true vendor-based indemnification
    Translation: "If vendors want to protect their users, then we can help. We'll make them an offer they cannot refuse. Capiche?"
  • Novell to idemify? (Score:5, Informative)

    by pitr256 ( 201315 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:21PM (#7955912) Homepage
    Novell Inc. has decided to follow Hewlett-Packard Co.'s lead and indemnify its enterprise Linux customers against possible legal action by The SCO Group and/or others

    More at:

    eWeek [eweek.com]
  • They be very smart (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BubbaTheBarbarian ( 316027 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:21PM (#7955916) Journal
    The question is why are they so pissed about this and keep asking for indemnification?
    Easy answer.
    First, it means that they cannot go after small time users. This kicks the legs out from under them, as they cannot build up case history by suing end-users and getting them to surrender (like the RIAA). This means the only thing they can do is go after companies in a vulnerable position, like Google (who in the midst of an IPO would HATE to have the pub of a SCO lawsuit)
    Secondly, when a company indemnifies, all of the claims are paid out (most of the time) by it's insurance company. This would give SCO the ability to get money to eternity by suing end-users, have them spin to the company, and the company would pay via it's insurer. This is a brilliant move on OSDL's part. SCO was baiting them to push for the indemnification, but by NOT pushing for it and then getting the ability for end users to defend themselves, they have effectively castrated SCO in at least three strategies.
  • by AtariDatacenter ( 31657 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:22PM (#7955936)
    This Yahoo! message post [yahoo.com] does a good job of breaking down the SCO press release. There is a simple rule when it comes to reading SCO press releases and public statements. They're communicating on two levels at the same time.

    First is the perception level. This is what you're supposed to get the feel of when you read the statements. The second is the literal/factual level, which is far less impressive, and what keeps the SEC and other agencies off of their butt. But most people don't read at this level. It is *fun* when you do!

    In short, the art of lying while telling the truth. You'll see it in the Yahoo! posting.
  • by Space Sku ( 552294 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:30PM (#7956013)
    With the whole errno.h "proof" and the binary license they are selling, arent you technicaly paying for the right to use the numbers 1-124?
  • Cool chart (Score:3, Insightful)

    by gr8_phk ( 621180 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:31PM (#7956019)
    They have a cool chart that shows how Linux 0.01 is derived from earlier unix. I don't see how this is possible since Linus didn't start with Unix source code. Frankly, I find a high correlation between the use of the word "pedigree" and people who are entirely too full of themselves. The pedigree chart is interesting anyway.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:32PM (#7956026)
    According to http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=ftp.sco.c om, SCO is
    running its FTP site using SCO Unix. However, I FTP'ed the site to see for
    sure:

    >ftp ftp.sco.com
    Connected to ftp.sco.com.
    220 ftp.caldera.com Ready.
    User (ftp.sco.com:(none)): anonymous
    331 Anonymous login ok, send your complete email address as your password.
    Password:
    230- Welcome to SCO's FTP site!

    This site hosts UNIX software patches, device drivers and supplements
    from SCO.

    To access Skunkware and Supplemental Open Source Packages, please
    connect to ftp2.caldera.com.

    230 Anonymous access granted, restrictions apply.
    ftp> cd bin
    250 CWD command successful.
    ftp> ls
    200 PORT command successful
    150 Opening ASCII mode data connection for file list
    zcat
    gzip
    ls
    tar
    226 Transfer complete.
    ftp: 21 bytes received in 0.00Seconds 21000.00Kbytes/sec.
    ftp> get gzip
    200 PORT command successful
    150 Opening ASCII mode data connection for gzip (142512 bytes)
    226 Transfer complete.
    ftp: 143032 bytes received in 1.08Seconds 132.68Kbytes/sec.
    ftp> quit
    221 Goodbye

    Examination of the gzip executable with the strings command reveals that it
    contains the string:

    @(#) The Linux C library 5.4.22

    As well as the text of the standard "NO WARRANTY" header found in
    GPL source files.

    So, apparently their FTP site is running Linux, but they are hiding that fact
    with deceptive http headers (or whatever it is that netcraft uses).
  • by Jonny Royale ( 62364 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:32PM (#7956033) Homepage Journal
    FYI - if you read the FAQ here [sco.com], you'll see that in order to see the proof, you have to sign an NDA agreement. Here's the chunk from the FAQ:
    15. Is SCO willing to show any examples of source-code violations to Linux users?


    SCO has been showing examples of direct line-by-line copying of UNIX code into Linux to hundreds of industry analysts, reporters, customers, partners, and industry influencers since June of this year. To view this code, interested parties have had to sign a non-disclosure agreement verifying that they would keep this code in confidence. SCO continues to identify and show this code to parties willing to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

    16. Why does SCO require an NDA to be signed to view evidence of UNIX System IP in Linux?
    Showing proof of UNIX System V IP in Linux requires SCO to disclose UNIX System source code. SCO is obligated to protect this source code, both to preserve its value to SCO and its shareholders, as well as to prevent devaluation of the source code that it has licensed (at considerable expense) to many customers. Thus SCO will not exhibit UNIX System source code to anyone except under protection of an NDA or a UNIX System source code license. The NDA only applies to the UNIX System source code; it doesn't restrict the disclosure of other materials and information presented in the IP discussion.


    So, basically you can't rebutt the claim since you can't see the source...and you can't see the source until you can't rebutt the claim (via NDA).
    Has anyone contacted the ghost of Joseph Heller about this?
  • by EMR ( 13768 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:33PM (#7956051)
    14. How can SCO expect me to purchase a license when its case with IBM hasn't been resolved yet? What if SCO loses its case against IBM? Will it reimburse Linux customers who purchased a SCO IP License for Linux?

    Some Linux users have the misunderstanding that the SCO IP License for Linux hinges on the outcome of the SCO vs. IBM case. If that case were completely removed, Linux end users would still need to purchase a license from SCO to use the SCO IP found in Linux. The IBM case surrounds mis-use of derivative works of SCO UNIX. It does not change the fact that line-by-line SCO IP code is found in Linux.

    Ie.. the court case has nothing to do with the Linux licenses.. and by SCO saying that there is infringing code, you are required to pay a license fee to them for your use of linux, without any proof.
  • by Camel Pilot ( 78781 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:36PM (#7956100) Homepage Journal
    I still do not understand how SCO can threaten companies with a copyright infringement without first testing their claim in court.

    If this is legal then what would stops Joe Schmoe from claiming they had input in some book on the top best seller list and start walking around threating BN and Amazon or anyone who bought the book. Why not since there is nothing to lose and maybe they will pay off.

  • Unhappy with SCO? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by stuffedmonkey ( 733020 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:37PM (#7956116)
    I would call their handy 1-800 number to complain! 1-800-726-8649 Call and say that you believe thier practices are unacceptable - on thier dime!
  • found it (Score:4, Funny)

    by mabu ( 178417 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @04:44PM (#7956217)
    A careful search of my source libraries revealed this:

    #ifndef _SYS_ERRNO_H_
    #define _SYS_ERRNO_H_

    #ifndef KERNEL
    #include
    __BEGIN_DECLS
    int * __error __P((void));
    __END_DECLS
    #define errno (* __error())
    #endif

    #define EBULLSHIT 666 /* (c) SCO/AT&T */ ...

    #endif /* _POSIX_SOURCE */
  • by mabu ( 178417 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @05:13PM (#7956575)
    While searching on the net, I came across this report [hightech-iplaw.com] (PDF form) by Dr. Stephen Lesavich, entitled, "Patent Enforcement: Extortion, Shakedown, Blackmail or the American Way?" It's a pretty interesting report. It outlines what the author calls the standard "Patent Enforcement Business Model" which seems to be what SCO is engaging in now, and cites other entities such as PanIP and Techsearch LLC who have also engaged in this kind of activity.

    The author is an IP attorney, so you can imagine that the report ultimately has the lawyeresque resolution of, "Don't ignore any request - speak to an attorney" but it still reveals a lot of insight and info into the dynamic at play here.

    What I find most troubling about this are some of the figures cited in the report:

    From 1991 to 2000 there was a 48% increase in patent suits. I'd estimate that there were probably as much in the most recent three-year period as in the previous nine.

    Average cost to prepare an answer to a suit is $250,000.

    83% of these cases never come to trial.

    Many people may not realize that it's much more likely that SCO will settle and this case may never come to trial, in which case SCO will have accomplished its objective of putting a dark cloud over Linux and continuing to extort unproven licensing fees from various users.

    I don't know if there is, but there should be A CONDITION placed upon the donations and use of this fund so that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES CAN THE MONEY BE USED IN A SETTLEMENT. We need to push for this trial to go all the way and not wuss out near the end, which would be a victory for SCO.
    • Many people may not realize that it's much more likely that SCO will settle

      That presumes that IBM will let them. IMB is currently in the process of dropping Microsoft operating systems. They have a lot invested in Linux, including the future of their company. Any kind of settlement will only substitute SCO for Microsoft as their lords and masters.

      IBM has vowed to crack SCO's bones and suck them dry of marrow, and has considerable incentive to do so. And considerable ability to do so, as well.
  • by josepha48 ( 13953 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @05:17PM (#7956614) Journal
    .. go to this web site http://www.sco.com/ibmlawsuit/

    Is is their lawsuit page (SCO's)

    Click on the link that says "August 6, 2003 Defendant IBM's Answer to the Amended Complaint and Counterclaim-Plaintiff IBM's Counterclaims Against SCO"

    Then read the small print in the PDF. Page 1 at the bottom where it says that this document is for the intended reciepiant and that distributing this document is a violation of attorney ... blah blah blah..

    Your honor, if they can't keep their own attorney documents privelidged, then how can you expect them to keep their source code under control. I submit that SCO is responsible for letting loose the code in question and that their company should be divided up and diseminated, and that the owners of the company be all put in jail for being a bunch of dodo's!

  • by WCMI92 ( 592436 ) on Monday January 12, 2004 @06:04PM (#7957131) Homepage
    And it's 100% provable. They are STILl distributing GPL code (the kernel) while claiming that the GPL itself isn't enough authority for people to run it.

    Even IF SCO has some copyrighted bits in the kernel that they can prove they didn't place there, and didn't authorize, they still don't own all the OTHER millions of lines of code they didn't author...

    Which they are STEALING for themselves to exclusively profit from if they insist that ONLY having their "Linux license" are you allowed to use it.

    SCO lost all legal rights to that code the minute they declared their DISAGREEMENT with the GPL. The GPL alone gives anyone authority to copy, use, modify, redistribute any of the code in Linux.

    To claim that the GPL is illegal, SCO is confessing to violating US copyright law, unless they have seperate agreements from EVERY copyright holder of that code!

    This is why I think their threats to sue Google, or another Linux user over COPYRIGHT issues are complete FUD. They have shown their hand. They are going to pick out some of their OWN customers who licensed SCO Unix in the past and sue them for breach of contract for using Linux...

    Very, VERY weak if you ask me.

    SCO wants to stay the HELL away from copyright and stick to breach of contract (which is all the IBM suit is) but use those cases to "win" the copyright case in the court of public opinion (and thus defame all Linux people) because a court of LAW is the last place they want to have to answer for the fact that they themselves have pirated MILLIONS of lines of code illegally just by continuing to distribute Linux...
    • I have thought more on this subject after having already posted a note.

      The idea of a class action lawsuit makes even more sense IMHO.

      1) SCO has already disavowed the GPL. I believe this is in their court filings. As such they have no legal right to use or distribute any GPL code.

      2) This fact is easily provable. The court documents already are filed. As such - in many jurisdictions this is a summary judgement matter.

      3) It costs only a couple hundred bux to file a statment of claim and a summary judge

Avoid strange women and temporary variables.

Working...