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Copy Protection Galore

Posted by timothy on Fri Dec 22, 2000 04:17 PM
from the betcha-saw-this-coming dept.
Kirk writes: "SecurityFocus is reporting that the cable industry submitted an FCC filing last week indicating that digital cable systems will use a patented, Hollywood-approved copy protection scheme called Dynamic Feedback Arrangement Scrambling Technique (DFAST). Under the scheme, HDTV-compatible recorders will refuse to tape movies, shows and sports events that have a 'don't copy' bit set. Consumer electronics makers fear an end to fair use rights, but cable companies will force compliance with DVD-style licensing agreement and the DMCA." And the Register notes that all hard drives will include copy protection by next year, under a plan put forth by the manufacturers to please the entertainment industry. Alan Cox doesn't like it, but Alan Cox doesn't call the shots here. T13.org has more information, including the specifications and some presentations explaining the system.
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  • Re:backups by Desert Raven (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @01:07PM
  • Re:Sorry by Malc (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @01:09PM
  • New exploit; mark all data as 'play once' by Spoing (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @01:12PM
  • Re:So what .. by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:22PM
  • Re:A Note I Sent About The Hard disk Copyprotectio by Malcontent (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:23PM
  • Re:backups by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:13PM
  • by knarf (34928) on Friday December 22 2000, @01:14PM (#542805) Homepage
    I think there is only one final solution to this: give up on the mass media. Yes, you heard me. No more Hollywood-movies (no great loss). No more Britney Spears (who cares). No more mindboggingly stupid game shows (what a relief!).

    Does this mean you can not listen to music anymore? Of course not! People will still make music, and they'll probably still publish that music for wider consumption in 'canned' (or downloadable) formats. They may want to be paid for the privilege, and they will.

    But the 'media industry' is on a fast track to extinction they way their heading right now.

    Think I am joking?

    I'm not. Guess who got rid of his TV set last month? I still have cable, but that's for my modem :-) And if they tighten the thumbscrews on that as well, there's always wireless. Not through some sleazy company, but through a collaborative wireless 'amateur' network like they're building in Seattle.

    OK, they can buy some laws to outlaw all this, and we'll find some other means to connect. As long as the true '1984' vision of forced television consumption does not come true, there is a way out. And should such a scheme ever come to pass, well you only have to read Orwell to learn how it will end...

    "Omnis enim res, quae dando non deficit, dum habetur et non datur, nondum habetur, quomodo habenda est."
  • by Grendel Drago (41496) on Friday December 22 2000, @12:23PM (#542806) Homepage
    No way:

    SCSI is terribly, terribly expensive in comparison. And it's the *principle* of the matter, because once it's been done with ATA, it'll be done with SCSI, it's just a matter of time.

    No, this has to be seen for the very, very bad idea that it is. This is about *control*.

    And what's to keep them from denying storage of all unsigned/unvalidated media? Let's meditate on why having all media centrally approved is *bad*.

    grendel drago
  • Stock up now by Evro (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:16PM
  • Re:Repeat: "Physical security is no security" by Spoing (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @01:16PM
  • The point is, the Register wants to get us excited by arete (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:26PM
  • Discussed at K5 + comment by Register story author by DeeKayWon (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:17PM
  • Re:Idiotic by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:26PM
  • Re:As long as... by Gorimek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:28PM
  • Re:This is a bad joke, right? by Zurk (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:17PM
  • What happens to products like... by MrPotatoeHead (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:18PM
  • Re:This is a bad joke, right? by Zurk (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:18PM
  • Re:Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by ilsa (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:29PM
  • Re:Well, the gist of the HD article by mad_clown (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @01:19PM
  • by Christopher B. Brown (1267) <cbbrowne@gmail.com> on Friday December 22 2000, @12:30PM (#542818) Homepage
    ... And if you store data using Ext2 filesystems, or ReiserFS filesystems, or BSD filesystems, or ... ad infinitum, and don't mark blocks as protected, this prevents me from storing data on the disk precisely how?

    I will certainly grant that this misfeature provides some wonderful exploits for the nefarious. After all, how long will it be before some hacker constructs a WinTel virus that marks the whole disk as being "copy protected," thereby rendering it into so much chaff from the perspective of anyone that was planning to actually store data on it.

    Western Digital, Quantum, Seagate, and friends will be gloriously happy at that one; it's a wonderful opportunity to sell people more disk drives.

    But as for the number of ways that this is a Spectacularly Stupid Idea, I'm not sure I have enough fingers and toes to cope with counting it... I'll probably need a Pentium processor, one without the FDIV bug, hopefully!

  • Re:Hard drives... by n3bulous (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:31PM
  • Re:Virtualize by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:21PM
  • Re:A Note I Sent About The Hard disk Copyprotectio by QuantumG (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:32PM
  • Re:Vote with your wallet / purse / pocketbook by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:32PM
  • Dongle by Espresso_Boy (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:22PM
  • Well, the gist of the HD article by Unknown Poltroon (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:20AM
  • Workarounds by 10.0.0.1 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:33PM
  • Re:So what .. by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:23PM
  • heh... by enrico_suave (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:34PM
  • HDTV with copy protection by 11thangel (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:21AM
  • Err.. computer forensics??? by Zemran (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:37PM
  • Yeah, right... by mclove (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:25PM
  • Oh No by SomeOtherGuy (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:38PM
  • Re:Lauch an anti-trust trial against MPAA/RIAA by ksheff (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @01:26PM
  • I agree. by rebelcool (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:38PM
  • Re:New file systems by RickHunter (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:26PM
  • Even MS oppose it by Qube (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:43PM
  • Re:As long as... by RickHunter (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @01:28PM
  • Re:Hard drives... by patter (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:43PM
  • Re:So what .. by Masem (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:36PM
  • Re:That is so trivial to defeat by Lee Cremeans (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @02:44PM
  • Re:Open Source on 'Protected' HD's - I think not! by Your Login Here (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:36PM
  • by supabeast! (84658) on Friday December 22 2000, @12:36PM (#542841)
    Information wants to be free.

    The corporations want to dominate our content, but why do we need them to? Without the huge chunk of profit these corporations take from artisits, why will the artists stick with this?

    And why would the people tolerate this? They will not, and the corportations like the idea, because it keeps us trapped in their distributional paradigms.

    But we can just push forward with our own.

    Free content.

    Free music given away on Napster, web sites, etc.
    Free stories and novels given away for the masses to enjoy.

    What kind of content can we expect? The odd, the fringe, probably not the best. But the people will grow more and more dissatisfied, and the fringe will grow. People will find ways to pay the creators, beyond just advertising support. T-shirts, small print run books, etc.

    A perfect example of this new paradigm is web comics. The web comics make money off merchandise, from books to t-shirts to mousepads.

    It will be a low start, but eventually quality content will leave the domain of multinational corporations and return to the people.
  • Re:We need Legislation by burris (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @01:29PM
  • Re:A Note I Sent About The Hard disk Copyprotectio by QuantumG (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @01:31PM
  • Re:It was bound to happen by Gonoff (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:36PM
  • You mean DivX, not TiVo by Gorimek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:36PM
  • "And if you store data using Ext2 filesystems, or ReiserFS filesystems, or BSD filesystems, or ... ad infinitum, and don't mark blocks as protected, this prevents me from storing data on the disk precisely how?"

    Simple... The MPAA/RIAA will go back to their favorite puppet, "Judge" Kaplan and get Linux/BSD and anything else that can use ext2 illegal as a "circumvention device" under the DMCA. Furthermore, the Linux source code, as it contains this "illegal" code.

    Scary shit. This demonstrates how dangerous rogue judges are, and why the power of the judiciary needs to be curtailed and accountability increased.
  • Re:So what .. by scrytch (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @02:47PM
  • Re:Yeah, right... by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:34PM
  • Re:As long as... by nebby (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @02:54PM
  • Re:As long as... by whistler-z (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:35PM
  • Bill Gates the Savior? by Wntrmute (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:59PM
  • What next? No really, when does the madness end? by kettch (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:37PM
  • Re:Cracked by Hadlock (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:59PM
  • Alan Cox (Score:3)

    by electricmonk (169355) on Friday December 22 2000, @01:36PM (#542854) Homepage

    Alan Cox doesn't like it, but Alan Cox doesn't call the shots here.

    You silly Linux people. Always pulling out your Alan Cox at the last minute.

  • Re:Evil techies... by meldroc (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:00PM
  • What to do? by Keepiru (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:37PM
  • The media is evil, plain and simple. by Maul (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @01:37PM
  • Re:Lauch an anti-trust trial against MPAA/RIAA by Alatar (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:38PM
  • by jafac (1449) on Friday December 22 2000, @03:00PM (#542859) Homepage
    yes but if *I* break away from the RIAA, buzillions of other idiots out there will not. Trust me on this one.
    Get up on your soapbox, and nail that fucker to your feet, because you'll die up there before a statistically noticable portion of the population boycotts RIAA products.
  • Re:And 10 minutes for a driver hack that disables by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:38PM
  • Re:As long as... by Masem (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:38PM
  • Re:What the F*#*!! by Stavros42 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:02PM
  • by Alien54 (180860) on Friday December 22 2000, @12:38PM (#542863) Journal
    IANAL, etc.

    but I wonder what the odds of a class action or other suit would be?

    After all, they would not be forcing us to buy *their* hard drives etc. We could always buy someone else's, Right? Except that someone else's also has the same junk. And everyone has conveniently stopped carrying the older technology at the same time. Complete with re-designed controller cards, motherboards, etc. Everything else would be "obsolete"

    Further on down the road, can you imagine:

    "Sorry, you cannot access the internet at this time. This ISP has detected that you are running hardware that does not meet security standards. These standards are enforced for your protection.

    Your name has been forwarded to the Police for your convenience.

    They will help you in obtaining a compliant system.

    Have a nice Day."

    We obviously need to get a law passed ensuring Our property rights, and ensuring our ability to do the things we need to do.

    Strangely enough, according to the Register article, even Microsoft is upset with this. Maybe we need to make an alliance with them on this? [shudder]

    Agreed, it sounds paranoid now, but who knows about later?

  • Re:Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by cougio (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:39PM
  • Re:Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:41PM
  • Re:Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:42PM
  • Re:backups by BorgDrone (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:41PM
  • Re:Hard drives... by cabinboy (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:42PM
  • Re:Isn't it somewhat ironic that by Dreadcat (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:44PM
  • don't worry too much by twfry (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:03PM
  • Re:Wishful thinking by jafac (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @03:03PM
  • Re:Shaking Head by jafac (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @03:05PM
  • Re:The Evils of Planned Obsolescence by AtrN (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:44PM
  • Re:Hard drives... by jafac (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @03:10PM
  • Re:Re:Most poeple here are making an invalid by Grumpman (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:18PM
  • A disturbing trend (read this) by rebelcool (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:44PM
  • Re:As long as... by Masem (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @01:49PM
  • Re:A Note I Sent About The Hard disk Copyprotectio by zoftie (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:19PM
  • this is really fucking bad by jafac (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:23PM
  • Re:The article DOES mention SCSI... by Brian Knotts (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:45PM
  • Re:Workarounds by LiENUS (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:46PM
  • Re:What the F*#*!! by knight_23 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:25PM
  • Seems to me... by Jestrzcap (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:50PM
  • Never again by JaguarsRevenge (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:46PM
  • Re:New file systems by Mr_Reaper (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:47PM
  • Reality 101 by PrinceKheldar (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:54PM
  • Re:A Note I Sent About The Hard disk Copyprotectio by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:47PM
  • replacement for SETI by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:48PM
  • Question by Weezul (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:54PM
  • Re:The point is, the Register wants to get us exci by Forkenhoppen (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:49PM
  • Re:Cracked by Sloppy (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:50PM
  • Pro Homo Individualis by Ukab the Great (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @06:32PM
  • Re:We need Legislation by DrEldarion (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @06:36PM
  • Re:What the F*#*!! by LuckyDog (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @06:39PM
  • Re:Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by DrEldarion (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @06:43PM
  • Re:Hard drives... by thogard (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @03:31PM
  • Sadness by Nullsmack (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:31PM
  • Re:Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by Numinak (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @06:44PM
  • Re:And 10 minutes for a driver hack that disables by Skapare (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @06:44PM
  • Re:Virtualize (Score:5)

    by Skapare (16644) on Friday December 22 2000, @03:32PM (#542900) Homepage
    How do you know that you're really talking to the hard drive, instead of a software emulator that makes all hard drives look the same?

    First of all, this whole scheme is intended for media recording devices, such as TiVo, not for computers. The intention is to make it so that a movie recorded on the media cannot be played elsewhere, or copied by means other than what the media recording device permits.

    That said, the answer to your question is this. The media recording device will interact by sending a challenge hash to the drive, which encrypts it and sends back the result. This is essentially authenticating that the drive really does have CPRM implemented, enabled, and activated. The software emulator, not having the necessary keys, won't be able to complete the challenge, and the media recording device will know it does not have CPRM media (it may still function at some level without such media, for example to record only movies without copy protection).

    CPRM further is intended to prevent taking the hard drive media to a computer and copying individual files or cloning the whole drive to make an uncontrolled copy. The way this is done is via the encryption which will be different for every drive. Although the computer can use the CPRM device commands to access the read/only area, it won't have the recorder keys to make any sense of it.

    Swapping an older controller onto a newer drive with the same platter configuration may not work, as the recording of the keys, and possibly of all the data on the platter space, could be done with a totally different low level format which the older controller would not understand. The best you could hope for is being able to use the older controller to low level format the platters, but that would wipe off all the keys, so all you now have in a drive w/o CPRM.

    In it's current spec, CPRM is NOT something that interferes with normal computer functions, aside from reducing available capacity by 1 megabyte (get it back by low level formatting with an older controller, if you know how to) and increasing the cost by $0.17 or less. Whatever is written on the drive w/o the use of CPRM will read back the same on any computer. So you can still store "freed" movies on the drive with your BSD or Linux machine, and quite possibly even with Windows.

    This copy protection mechanism requires cooperation between the recorder (subject to laws requiring implementation of copy protection logic) and the media (not subject to those laws). The recorder could be implemented to not record copy protected content on media that doesn't implement CPRM, and this would probably be it's way to be compliant with the law. Non-CPRM media can still be made, but may not work in new recorders. Manufacturers of the hard drives will probably be happy to implement this on at least some of their production to sell to the media recorder market. They may also implement it on the entire production line simply to save inventory and production scheduling costs which would likely be more than the patent royalties involved, knowing that normal computer functionality is not impaired.

    What crackers will be seeking to do is extract and crack the keys, and probably implement some device that goes between a recorder and the media to completely fake the recorder into believing it has CPRM compliant media. What gets recorded may then be in the clear, or may at least be cloneable. Other potential cracks could be the ability to make a successful clone by emulating a media recorder with 2 interfaces and no copy protection. Whether crackers can crack these keys remains to be seen. Maybe the movie industry has learned and is using larger keys. OTOH, crackers have been way more resourceful than most of us have expected prior to successful cracks.

  • It was bound to happen by atrowe (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:23AM
  • Re:My response to "Hard drive copy protection"... by blurzero (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:55PM
  • Re:Copy Control and the Industry by symbolic (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:34PM
  • Re:By 2101, these facts will be myths... by sonofepson (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:55PM
  • Re:Well, the gist of the HD article by Kewlwolf (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:34PM
  • Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by AcidMonkey (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:23AM
  • backups by dghxc fhgxd (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:24AM
  • What about firewire drives? by gimp999 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:36PM
  • Intellectual Property Rights by the eric conspiracy (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:51PM
  • Re:Wishful thinking by Nightlight3 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @07:00PM
  • So what .. by Ashran (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:24AM
  • Re:All sites with Linux source code will be illega by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:56PM
  • Don't record bits. by Restil (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @03:38PM
  • That is so trivial to defeat by Julian Morrison (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:51PM
  • Re:Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by fwc (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:57PM
  • New file systems by indole (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:24AM
  • Pissed off? Join the EFF by Devil's Avocado (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:38PM
  • Today we lay to rest... by HobophobE (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:57PM
  • Shaking Head (Score:5)

    by Interrobang (245315) on Friday December 22 2000, @11:25AM (#542919) Journal
    The first question that occurs to me is, "Just who do they think they are?" I don't like to see people put the kibosh on Fair Use rights (or even my ability to grab something off the tube so I can watch it when I am home, or something).

    I guess it all comes back to corporate control...I always knew there was more to HDTV than met the eye, and I wondered why, ever since I heard about it, alarm bells were going off in my head. Now I know.

    Am I ahead of the Weltanschauung, or what?

    Interrobang
  • haven't heard of that one... by Danse (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:52PM
  • Personally, I think this is GREAT. (No, really) by Hentai (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:59PM
  • Re:Lauch an anti-trust trial against MPAA/RIAA by thogard (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:39PM
  • Discussion by Kwikymart (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:26AM
  • Idea for change by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:52PM
  • Re:haven't heard of that one... by s.a.m (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:01PM
  • Re:By 2101, these facts will be myths... by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:55PM
  • what about the hard drive makers? by darthpenguin (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:27AM
  • and this won't break raid? by sporty (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:02PM
  • Re:So what .. by Flower (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:56PM
  • I have a solution. by TheFlu (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:56PM
  • by Terri416 (131871) on Friday December 22 2000, @12:59PM (#542931)
    As I understand it ...

    The firmware in a new drive will refuse to store data if it contains a "don't store me" message. Actually, it's a single bit, but I want to generalise the technical issue to allow for more sophisticated (e.g. cryptographic or stegged) signalling.

    It seems to me that if the HD firmware never sees the no-copy message because cfs (or PGPdisk) has encrypted it, then the firmware can't do anything but assume that it's okay to store. Treating all data as no-copy by default would be the only counter-measure to this, and that would defeat the whole point of a HD. I can't see any manufacturer (or OEM or anyone else) falling for that.

    Do tell me if I've misunderstood the technical issues.

  • "consumer rights" by e_lehman (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @07:12PM
  • Balance. . . by Fantastic Lad (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @07:14PM
  • Hmph. by crashnbur (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:40PM
  • It is already too late by Rubidium (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @07:17PM
  • You mean DIVX, not DivX by iotaborg (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:45PM
  • *Twitch* by Legion303 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @07:25PM
  • Re:As long as... by DarkProphet (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:46PM
  • Great News for Open Source by bsdbigot (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:03PM
  • Re:All sites with Linux source code will be illega by Weezul (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @07:31PM
  • My response to "Hard drive copy protection"... by fatboy (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:27AM
  • by bfree (113420) on Friday December 22 2000, @11:28AM (#542942)
    DeDFAST
  • Re:Well, the gist of the HD article by plague3106 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @07:44PM
  • Re:Well, the gist of the HD article by Rakarra (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @03:55PM
  • Hard drives... (Score:5)

    by Yu Suzuki (170586) on Friday December 22 2000, @11:28AM (#542945) Homepage
    How can this be enforced? There's no "hard drive coalition" like the RIAA or MPAA. Anyone who wants to make a hard drive can -- and plenty of manufacturers do. Sure, the big ones will no doubt bow to the entertainment indus^H^H^H^H^Hcabal's demanads, but just as smaller DVD player manufacturers don't include regional coding, smaller hard driver manufacturers probably won't include any copy protection schemes. And there isn't yet a law that can force people to purchase a disabled hard drive; that would be an illegal restraint of free trade.

    When people find that their mainstream hard drivers don't have the functionality they want, they'll simply buy hard drivers from smaller manufacturers. No big surprise there -- we already saw the same thing happen to Circuit City's ill-fated TiVo. I don't see how this situation merits such doomsday predictions; it might be inconvenient, but people aren't stupid. They know what to buy, and it won't be copy protected hard drives.

    Remember, ultimately, companies are dependent on your dollar to keep them in business. Don't like their products? Don't buy them, and watch everything start to change.

    Yu Suzuki

  • Look at the DVD players by athmanb (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:06PM
  • Re:Nothin' to it. by Weezul (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @07:50PM
  • Re:Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by Rakarra (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @03:59PM
  • Re:Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by Schnedt Microne (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:28AM
  • Re:Gimme a little credit, here! by Roland Walter Dutton (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:08PM
  • by atrowe (209484) <adam@arowe.org> on Friday December 22 2000, @11:28AM (#542951) Homepage
    Not only that, but the supreme court has ruled that "time shift" recording is completely legal. The MPAA already got bitchslapped by the supreme court in their suit against VCR manufacturers. This is no different, it's just a digital medium as opposed to an analogue one. I highly doubt we'll ever see this scheme implemented in consumer devices.
  • Two points. by Rakarra (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @04:07PM
  • Copy Control and the Industry by hakker (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:28AM
  • Re:All sites with Linux source code will be illega by mikethegeek (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @02:09PM
  • Where's the Problem by senfman (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:30AM
  • Re:New file systems by Schnedt Microne (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:30AM
  • Not just that... by slackergod (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @04:10PM
  • Welcome to 1974... by Dwonis (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:10PM
  • Open Source on 'Protected' HD's - I think not! by Bonker (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:31AM
  • Re:So what .. by d0m1n10n (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @07:59PM
  • Re:Virtualize by Weezul (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @08:03PM
  • Here's an application... by Polo (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @04:17PM
  • Re:I really don't understand it.. by buss_error (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @08:08PM
  • Where are the controllers? by atrus (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @04:22PM
  • Re:We need Legislation by epcraig (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @08:09PM
  • Re:Virtualize by drinkypoo (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @04:31PM
  • Which year was the VCR court case taken place? by Taco Cowboy (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @08:12PM
  • by Cederic (9623) on Friday December 22 2000, @11:32AM (#542968)

    Ah, but what if Joe Sixpack wants digital cable. In fact, what if he wants any cable.

    Y'see, the cable companies will only broadcast digital. And they will switch to only broadcasting DFAST. So if Joe wants more choice from his TV, he's going to have to give up being able to record certain things - like PPV movies, major sporting events, etc.

    Of course, they'll still let you record the soap operas, the evening news, Friends and all the other shows that people get addicted to - but probably only on a 'one copy' basis. And so most people wont even notice that they don't have the ability to make two copies - most people don't try. And they'll accept that they can't record a PPV movie, because that's a sacrifice worth making if they want cable in the first place.

    So this technology can be introduced without upsetting the populace. And it will be.

    Don't worry, it'll get hacked. And someone will decide that you can't go to jail for hacking it, and that if you don't mass-copy (or put onto the Internet) your personal copy then you don't owe anybody any more money. And the studios wont like it, but hey, they'll buy a couple more laws to help them out.

    If it matters that much to you, then don't get cable, don't pay them the money in the first place, and don't watch any films or sporting events. You have that choice - most people just seem to forget it.

    ~Cederic
  • Re:And another thing... by ocie (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @08:17PM
  • Re:You really thought HDTV was for *your* benefit? by RiffRafff (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @04:33PM
  • :-/ by Dwonis (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:13PM
  • Re:As long as... by Masem (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @04:33PM
  • Re:The harder you tighten your grip, Tarkin... by peterwayner (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:13PM
  • Re:The harder you tighten your grip, Tarkin... by Assistant Madman (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @04:33PM
  • Re:Hard drives... by jidar (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:13PM
  • Re:As long as... by whistler-z (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:15PM
  • Re:Wishful thinking by Nightlight3 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @04:36PM
  • Guess I'd better... by sconeu (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:35AM
  • Re:Guess I'd better... by superyooser (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @08:37PM
  • It just doesn't make any sense at all. by Pig Hogger (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @04:38PM
  • Re:Look at the DVD players by Dwonis (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:16PM
  • changes in TV..? by maarten_delft (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:35AM
  • Re:backups (Score:3)

    by griffjon (14945) <GriffJon@Hotm[ ].com ['ail' in gap]> on Friday December 22 2000, @11:35AM (#542983) Homepage Journal
    Not only illegal--impossible. Even with your own OS/free OS/etc..

    This is so incredibly wrong-headed, I can't even begin. It's applying the DivX DVD-pay-per-use system to hard drives. What happens when it goes under? Do we all get 'free' aaccess to our hard drives for a year before they become paperweights with all our data locked on them??

    My ass. Time to start stockpiling non-compliant HDs and other devices.
  • Repeat after me: Hooooleee Shitttttt!!!! by crovira (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @04:41PM
  • They should call it ADFAST by Proud Geek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:36AM
  • Copy Protection Galore by vmarkwart (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @04:42PM
  • I really don't understand it.. by HeUnique (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @02:17PM
  • Entertainment... sheesh... by Ender Ryan (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:37AM
  • Mount through loopback, use XOR by Halo- (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:22PM
  • Re:ATA drives by Detritus (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @06:46AM
  • Re:A Note I Sent About The Hard disk Copyprotectio by cameleon (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @06:52AM
  • Re:A Note I Sent About The Hard disk Copyprotectio by Malcontent (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @08:37PM
  • What's in it for the Disk manufacturers? by jcr (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @06:57AM
  • Re:A Note I Sent About The Hard disk Copyprotectio by Malcontent (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @08:41PM
  • Foolish foolish content producers! by xigxag (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @07:04AM
  • Corporate perspective by Sinsterian (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @07:05AM
  • So we'll adapt our home pcs by dmaxwell (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @04:43PM
  • Re:Even MS oppose it by QuoteMstr (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @07:15AM
  • Problem is that the 15 year old will be arrested by crovira (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @04:49PM
  • Re:The Evils of Planned Obsolescence by QuoteMstr (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @07:19AM
  • ATA drives by The Mgt (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:37AM
  • Perhaps it is time for another "modem tax" alert? by anwyn (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @07:20AM
  • Hardly! by browser_war_pow (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @04:51PM
  • To be totally Machievaellian, they might need to pad their Q4 HD sales. What better way to do that than to release information that the next generation of HDs will be unusable?
  • Some points: by CapeDoryBob (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:22PM
  • Unwritable section of the HDD? by Mr. Flibble (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:39AM
  • 80GB EIDE drives... by LocalH (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:24PM
  • Re:New file systems by hrieke (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:39AM
  • What the F*#*!! (Score:5)

    by Faulty Dreamer (259659) <dreamer@NOsPaM.faultydreams.org> on Friday December 22 2000, @11:39AM (#543009) Homepage
    At what point did consumer rights just completely disappear? What happened to the idea that you try to please your customer? Where did that mentallity disappear to?

    I do not understand how this kind of garbage keeps happening. We used to have, under "fair use", the right to "time-shift" any publicly accessible media. Television and radio shows, broadcast movies and sporting events were allowed to be recorded by law. So, how do the media companies propose to remove the capabilities that the legal systems says are perfectly allowable? By introducing a "no record bit" in the signal. These proposals (well, they are more than proposals now aren't they? But I refuse to call them "standards") are seriously just another attempt to gather more money.

    But the thing that the industries involved here don't understand is that they are only going to hurt themselves in the end. Now, all of the people that have to work during their favorite shows will not only not be able to record those shows to watch them later, but they won't be able to watch them at all. How does that improve viewership of the shows that these companies claim are so important to their livelihood? If we have an evening where we are busy and we can't watch our favorite show, we can't watch that show at all. Forget about recording it because the industry says that's piracy. Be a good little consumer and sit in front of your TV when we tell you to. Well, what if we have lives beyond our television, but we still want to watch our favorite shows? Sorry, that's no longer allowed.

    It just seems utterly ridiculous to me that companies keep thinking that by "getting tighter control" of their media they are going to make more money. All they are doing is wasting a lot of money on things that are going to garauntee lower viewership, alienating viewers, and pissing people off in droves. The electronics market will suffer. The consumers will suffer. And eventually, when people get so sick of trying to find ways to watch their favorite shows that they stop watching altogether, the media companies themselves will suffer.

    Well, that doesn't really hurt my feelings too much. But it is amazing to see so much money wasted on something that is so utterly stupid. But, it seems stupidity is the only thing these companies are good at anymore. Once a business hits a certain size, that's it. You cannot be big and still play smart. It just doesn't seem to work.

    Now, having said all of that, is it possible that the FCC will reject this? It would be nice if there were that much common sense in a government agency. The whole intention of agencies like the FCC is supposedly to uphold the law of the land. The law of the land says that time-shifting is allowable. But the law of the green (as in the green of the money of the kickbacks the FCC is bound to be getting from the industries involved) says that time-shifting is just another way of sayhing "piracy". However this turns out, I'm sure it will be another "consumers are evil, business is good" turn of events.

    At what point will business realize that people are not evil just for being consumers? Legally, at least in the US, you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. But when it comes to business anymore it is automatically assumed that anyone that purchases any good is guilty of the most evil and vile crime that is possible with that good (or broadcast). It is not even thought, even for a moment, that a "consumer" may just be using something as it was intended, or if not exactly as intended, it isn't the evil and disgusting nature of the person causing them to do something "different" (Oh, that's a naughty word now isn't it?). It is just that they need to do it differently or they can't do it at all (especially in the case of recording a show because you aren't home at that time).

    But let them do it. Once a few million consumers are pissed off and stop watching/recording their shows every day while they are working, maybe these people will finally wake up. But I doubt it. They will probably just assume that we are illegally tapping into someone else's feed.

  • And why are they doing this? by Dante333 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:41AM
  • Most poeple here are making an invalid asumption by Grumpman (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @02:29PM
  • [John Gilmore wrote about this topic yesterday on several lists. Here's my reaction. I'm curious to hear what others think.]

    I'm glad that John spent the time and energy to write a good summary of what is going on in the hard disk area. He's spot on about the dangers to our liberties.

    But I was quite worried until I began to see the dangers for IBM and Intel in the scheme. This is not an easy play for them because it threatens much of the entire industry in these ways:

    1) This is going to increase the cost of using PCs dramatically. Hard disk crashes are going to go from major disasters to utter catastrophes. When the disks go bad, you'll need to buy all new copies of the software, images, movies, and what not. Backing up? Well, that will be another headache that won't be possible without the right permissions. They can wave their hands, but there's no getting around the fact that installing software is going to have plenty of new red tape.

    I don't see how they will be able to distinguish between the truth and a lie when a guy calls up and say, "uh, my hard disk crashed. I need to install it on a new machine." They either authorize it or they don't. In fact, they'll probably have to automate the process because it's so expensive to have an actual human on the other end.

    My mean time between hard disk failures is about 2 years, but I'm a heavy user. Can we really afford to create a new class of technicians who do special hard disk replacement for 20% of America each year?

    2) This really changes the nature of the business. Right now the PC and software manufacturers sell you a box, wave good bye and say, "Good luck." Support is a joke. Actually fixing the machines costs too much money. Anything worth under $400 is essentially disposable.

    If they put trusted hard disks in place, then there needs to be someone to care for these disks. They can't just keep waving good bye when you walk out the door. The business model needs to change to be something like cable television. That means hiring thousands if not millions of technicians who will come to your house and fix your hard drive.

    3) This is really going to slow innovation and that's really going to hurt IBM and Intel. Already the hardware guys depend heavily on upgrades to keep people buying machines. If people can't move their software to a new zippier computer, then they're not going to buy a new zippier computer. Take a look at the cable television world. Most people are still using 1970's era technology. It just takes too long for the service technicians to go to each house and replace things. But that's the only way you can run the world when you have trusted corrals for special data. You can't just let any schmoe upgrade their hard disk or any schmoe is going to be able to pirate Hollywood movies. Gosh, that's all us proles do all day long you know. Pirate content.

    4) This is another opportunity for the open source community to come in and steal market share. If the press reports in Slashdot and other places are to believed, it was only a few months ago that Microsoft marched into the offices at Virginia Beach and asked them to produce the certificates for their copies of Windows. You know, those neat hologram embossed slips of paper. They didn't have one for each PC so they had to pay more than $129,000. (http://slashdot.org/articles/00/12/01/0532206.sht ml)

    This is another opportunity for Red Hat or some other Linux box company to walk into companies and say, "Use Red Hat, Mozilla, and Star Office and you'll never have license problems again. The hardware guys claim that they can take care of rights management issues for you. So can we and we cost alot less."

    I think this may be the greatest thing that's come along for open source OSs yet. As Princess Leia said in the Hollywood content "Star Wars", "The harder you squeeze your fingers Vader, the more planets slip through the fingers." Do those content wrangling lawyers down there ever look at the content they protect?

    http://www.wayner.org/books/ffa/ for information on my book on open source software.

    p3@wayner.org
  • A conspiracy against SysAdmins? (long) by Peter H.S. (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @05:09PM
  • Re:The Evils of Planned Obsolescence by bartok (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:30PM
  • Unbelieable in the past by gallir (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:42AM
  • Relax on the hard drive thing, folks... by mrdisco99 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:31PM
  • Black Market by jo2y (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:42AM
  • Distributed Computing by jasonrobinson (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @02:32PM
  • Re:Hard drives... by Cryte (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @07:33AM
  • Re:Unwritable section of the HDD? by aozilla (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @07:34AM
  • Re:Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by RedX (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @05:10PM
  • Re:So what .. by scrytch (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @07:35AM
  • Copy from RAM disk to HD by EvilTofu (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @05:10PM
  • Re:Well, the gist of the HD article by calcfreak901 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @09:26PM
  • Copy "protection"? by chrylis (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @09:34PM
  • Re:ATA drives by Cryte (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @07:37AM
  • Re:Simple solution: give up on them! by charlesc (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @05:11PM
  • by Quietti (257725) on Friday December 22 2000, @11:42AM (#543028) Journal

    Now seems like a good time to consider the entertainment industry's giants as a big cartel and launch an anti-trust trial at least twice as big as the one we just saw against Microsoft.

    May all Actors and Musicians who have been shagged by those industries please take a stand now and help their audience put an end to the industry's disgusting monopoly and their influence on politicians, police and other industries!


    --
  • Re:Virtualize by vaginux (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @09:41PM
  • Why are they complying? by Big Torque (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:44AM
  • by TheCarp (96830) <sjc.carpanet@net> on Friday December 22 2000, @05:13PM (#543031) Homepage
    Unfortunaly I have to disagree here. This can and will work. For several reasons actually. This isn't like drugs.

    See with drugs, they are fairly easy to produce (even the toughest once require little more than a diligent chemist or botanist and a little inginuity - above the ability of the "average man" but not the average "trained chemist")

    This means you have laws aimed at stopping the supply and distribution. That never works. You simply can not stop people from obtaining goods that exist, or can be made in sufficient quantities from distributing them.

    However, in this case its different, only slightly, but still different. It is a long term process to be done in stages see...because this isn't the law stopping distribution, its the producers.

    This is just the first step. They start with little copy protections things. They seem "token" and silly. Easy to bypass, hardly a threat.

    Next thing you know, VCRs are a thing of the past, noone makes them. DVDs and DVD recorders replace them. The same for hard drives without copy protection etc.

    As time goes on, the switch to HDTV, your VCR dies out, VCRs are no longer produced etc etc. Next thing you know, the majority of devices automagically respect the copy protect bits. You can't even find hardware that doesn't. Old hardware that doesn't is no longer produced...and so supplies will begin to dwindle.

    its a stepwise process...eventually it leaves the producer in control. Fair use is gone, not by law but by media control. Check mate, in fact thats a good analogy, cuz its alot like chess....

    You can move around, but slowly, your world gets smaller and smaller, they move in, and the next thing you know, your trapped, check mate.

    The ONLY things that can stop this are renegade hardware manafacturers. Individuals doing things like "fixing" their own hardware will always be far and few between, wont even show up on the radar.

    If they do it slowly enough, then they win, because people will just get used to it, and will just accept the limitations...slowly. People tend to be accepting of slow changes and react violently to fast ones.

    -Steve
  • The article doesn't mention SCSI... by elmegil (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:45AM
  • I always wanted an excuse to go SCSI by dilvish_the_damned (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:45AM
  • Cracked by Shocker69 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:46AM
  • Spirit of Christmas, and of ideals... by noz (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @05:19PM
  • Copy-protecting HD's?? by kennylives (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:46AM
  • Need to get at the source by mssymrvn (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:46AM
  • by Saint Aardvark (159009) on Friday December 22 2000, @11:47AM (#543038) Homepage Journal
    NEW YORK (AP) -- In a surprise move, a coalition of hard drive manufacturers anounced that, beginning in the third quarter of 2001, all new humans would have copy protection implemented at the genetic level. The copy protection scheme would prohibit unauthorized reproduction of humans by parents, or "genome hackers" as they are known in the industry.

    "It's quite simple," said a spokeswoman for the group. "The Human Genome Project was in some financial difficulty, so we stepped in and cut a deal. By leveraging the techonology already in place in hard drive copy protection, we will be preventing unauthorized duplication of humans."

    Unauthorized human reproduction -- also known as "childbearing" to hackers -- has been estimated to cost content producers over $3 billion per year. Implementing copy protection at the genome level, the Holy Grail of the industry, is predicted to prevent up to 97% of "childbearing".

    But not all industry figures are thought to be onside. Microsoft in particular has been vociferous in its opposition to the plan, saying that it would effectively eliminate the potential market for its software rental scheme.

    "We demand the freedom to innovate," said Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer recently. "And that means being free to innovate for lots and lots of paying customers."

    Free Software Foundation guru Richard M. Stallman was unavailable for comment. A source close to the programmer said he was "scanning the personal ads frantically."

  • Re:ATA drives by mabinogi (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:47AM
  • DFAST ATA copy protection by Paracelcus (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @07:54AM
  • Re:This is the last straw. by Paracelcus (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @08:04AM
  • Re:Virtualize by defile (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @09:57PM
  • Re:All sites with Linux source code will be illega by fornix (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @08:38AM
  • Re:I'm looking for the Man in the Middle... by calcfreak901 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @10:10PM
  • Re:Securely signed DLLs by jeffry_smith (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @09:21AM
  • YAYYYYYYYY! Faux-Presidente Bush! Viva! by innermind (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @05:29PM
  • Re:I'm looking for the Man in the Middle... by The Monster (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @09:22AM
  • How will hard drive copy protection work? by swm (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @05:30PM
  • Re:Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by Striker5 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @10:24PM
  • Re:What the F*#*!! by fornix (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @09:26AM
  • Even MS is against it by WildBeast (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @05:30PM
  • by lewp (95638) on Friday December 22 2000, @11:48AM (#543052) Journal
    "Don't worry, it'll get hacked. And someone will decide that you can't go to jail for hacking it, and that if you don't mass-copy (or put onto the Internet) your personal copy then you don't owe anybody any more money. And the studios wont like it, but hey, they'll buy a couple more laws to help them out."

    Isn't this the kind of rational thinking that we've been hoping the courts would start using for a long time now? Personally, I'm through giving them this much credit. At this point I'm more likely to think something like the following:

    It'll get hacked. A scapegoat will be found amongst the millions who wanted to see it hacked. He will be humiliated, have all his computers confiscated, and will be brought to trial. Everyone here will remind each other of what we all already know, that this is all stupid, and it won't do any good. In the meantime another breach of our privacy/rights will happen and everyone will think "oh, they'll finally realize how stupid this is." I've noticed the cycle by now, haven't you?
  • Man, this is some _serious_ crap by Jarnis (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:49AM
  • by MoNsTeR (4403) on Friday December 22 2000, @11:49AM (#543054)
    By next year? HAHAHAHAHAH!!!

    From what I understand of this technology, market acceptance is nearly impossible. But if all the big bad corporations get together and cram it down our throats, it'll take absolutely YEARS to make the transition. For example, the first article I read about this indicated that a protected disk and a real disk wouldn't be able to interoperate at all, ie: you couldn't copy a file from one to the other, in either direction.

    And at any rate, I can't imagine anything at that low of a level actually working in a meaningful way. An HD processor hardly has the spare cycle to do the heuristics to see if I'm writing an MP3. And it wouldn't know how to read through the filesystem layer anyway.

    Call me overly optimistic, but I don't think this will ever happen.

    MoNsTeR
  • by The Monster (227884) on Friday December 22 2000, @05:40PM (#543055) Homepage
    ...attack, that is. Since the whole thing is based on the INT 13H interface, it seems to me that a kernel module (or a .DLL for the OS-challenged) can mediate between the application requesting "secure" storage and the drive allocating it.

    The easiest thing to do is simply open two files on the drive, one secured and one insecure. Then, whenever the paranoid app asks to write to the secure file, send that block of data to the insecure file, and send the same block to the secure one. Let the challenge/response mechanism built into the drive satisfy the app's desire to assure that it's talking to the Real McCoy, returning the status codes that come back from the secure file to the app.

    As an added bonus, throw in the old BBS download quota bypass, and when the last block of data is written, return an error code to the app, indicating that the file is not correctly committed to disk. Also, you can have the app tell the drive to delete the secure file, releasing one "lock" (some supported schemes allow you to make 3 "portable" copies at a time, requiring verified deletion of a copy before another can be made).

    Since the interface to the device has to be well-specified, this sort of approach is how the security will be circumvented. Having a copy of the .DLL will be a violation of the DMCA, of course, but so is having pirate copies of movies. Therefore, a version that can be loaded from a floppy will probably be quite popular.

  • Re:what about the hard drive makers? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:49AM
  • Re:A Note I Sent About The Hard disk Copyprotectio by drsoran (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @10:48PM
  • Re:When there's a will, there's a way by calcfreak901 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @10:48PM
  • Re:ATA drives by digitalmind (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @05:45PM
  • Re:Agreements are fine, what about law by squiggleslash (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @05:52PM
  • Re:Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by hammock (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:51AM
  • Re:Idiotic by fornix (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @10:03AM
  • Re:Simple solution: give up on them! by sjames (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @10:20AM
  • Re:Wishful thinking by Mike1024 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @10:50PM
  • Re:Intellectual Property Rights by fornix (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @10:29AM
  • Re:*Twitch* by GuNgA-DiN (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @11:43AM
  • When they came for my... by localroger (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @05:57PM
  • Re:Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by calcfreak901 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:26PM
  • Re:Don't mess with Joe Sixpack's TV by calcfreak901 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:30PM
  • 1984, Fareignheight 451, Brave New World, et al by Grahf666 (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @05:58PM
  • Re:Hard drives... by fireboy1919 (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:51AM
  • Re:Well, the gist of the HD article by Pugget (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @06:12PM
  • When there's a will, there's a way by Taco Cowboy (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @06:14PM
  • Unfuckingbelievable by The Dev (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:51AM
  • Re:Copying the MPEG stream from Tivo by drinkypoo (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @02:24PM
  • This is a bad joke, right? by petard (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:51AM
  • Re:Virtualize by Skapare (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @06:14PM
  • Re:That is so trivial to defeat by Mr. Hankey (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @12:06AM
  • Re:what about the hard drive makers? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:51AM
  • Re:Wishful thinking by steveha (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @12:32AM
  • Re:Intellectual Property Rights by epcraig (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @01:25AM
  • Re:De[a]DFAST already exists. It's called cfs! by turbod (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @06:17PM
  • contest by dR.fuZZo (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:52AM
  • Re:This is a bad joke, right? by petard (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:53AM
  • by kennylives (27274) on Friday December 22 2000, @12:04PM (#543085) Journal

    Putting copyright protection on the HD, presumably requiring the participation of the OS (not likely in the case of Free software anyway), essentially means that the PC must become a trusted client when running software.

    Bruce Schneier (the very same) speaks to the idea of trusted clients in the 15 May 2000 Crypto-Gram [counterpane.com]. Here he says:

    Other companies claim to sell rights-management software: audio and video files that can't be copied or redistributed, data that can be read but cannot be printed, software that can't be copied. The common thread in all of these "solutions" is that they postulate a situation where the owner of a file can control what happens to that file after it is sent to someone else.

    It's complete nonsense.

    Controlling what the client can do with a piece of data assumes a trusted (from the point of view of the initial owner of the file) piece of software running on the client. Such a thing does not exist, so these solutions don't work.

    Besides, such a thing would put such a damper on PC sales as to make the last quarter look like a windfall...

  • What to do? by cr0sh (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:04PM
  • Sorry by Shocker69 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:53AM
  • Re:New exploit; mark all data as 'play once' by dietcrack (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @06:23PM
  • Seems simple by girth (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:54AM
  • Isn't it somewhat ironic that by enjar (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:04PM
  • by drivers (45076) on Friday December 22 2000, @12:04PM (#543091)
    Fight fire with fire. We need to push for legislation that forbids the sale of technology whose primary purpose is access control and which also has the effect of denying fair use rights. I wish I had more to say about it, but that pretty much sums it up.
  • Maybe a good idea (Score:5)

    by KevinMS (209602) on Friday December 22 2000, @12:06PM (#543092)

    My first reaction is, of course, this is terrible, but then I realized, the more they push me away from tv, the more of a favor they are doing me.
  • Re:What the F*#*!! by ahodgson (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:06PM
  • Re:It was bound to happen by h4x0r31337 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:07PM
  • Re:Cracked (Score:4)

    by dR.fuZZo (187666) on Friday December 22 2000, @12:07PM (#543095)
    Can someone give me one copy protection scheme that actually has worked?

    It's called book burning.
  • Re:Intellectual Property Rights by the eric conspiracy (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @02:41PM
  • Re:Intellectual Property Rights by the eric conspiracy (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @02:56PM
  • Re:Virtualize by Skapare (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @03:03PM
  • Re:Virtualize by Skapare (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @03:26PM
  • Re:what about the hard drive makers? by bonzo (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @04:35PM
  • Don't expand government, fight the DMCA! by medworth (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @01:39AM
  • Securely signed DLLs by acb (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @02:37AM
  • Re:Hardly! by acb (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @02:46AM
  • Re:Intellectual Property Rights by fornix (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @08:20PM
  • What have we come to? by Dawn Keyhotie (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:54AM
  • Congratulations. You are now a criminal. by acb (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @03:06AM
  • Re:The point is, the Register wants to get us exci by acb (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @03:09AM
  • How long 'till read-only hard drives? by jmv (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:54AM
  • Not just American by acb (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @03:15AM
  • A pointless(?) move... by brogdon (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:54AM
  • Re:Copy-protecting HD's?? by Betcour (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @03:28AM
  • Hard drives by Frijoles (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:54AM
  • What angle to work, and our Radar Failure... by clyons (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @03:31AM
  • Re:And why are they doing this? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:07PM
  • Agreements are fine, what about law by cwhicks (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:56AM
  • Re:We need Legislation by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:07PM
  • Re:This is a bad joke, right? by la1n (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:07PM
  • As long as... (Score:3)

    by Masem (1171) on Friday December 22 2000, @11:56AM (#543118)
    I knew the copy bit was coming -- the fight's been set for a long time, and it's not over, since thise was mainly a filing of the method with teh FTC. And one can start to argue fair use, etc etc. First, we're still not at a point where we know what HDTV format will be used to send out info; sets and equipment for recieving are STILL too expensive, and the TV broadcasters are dragging their heels: the complete switch is to be done by 2006, and we're nowhere close.

    But all that aside, I do agree that this bit is necessary particularly for cable and premium channel -- broadcast channels should NOT be allowed to set this bit at all because they don't make their money sending data out ot the consumer, they make it in commercials. On the other hand the consumer is paying for the content on the cable stations (ehhh, somewhat), and since it's not broadcasted freely to everyone, there is need to copyright protection. Particularly in the case of premium stations like HBO, etc. However, there should be significant penalties for abusing the don't set bit -- Nick at Nite, for example, has no reason to use it.

    What needs to be developed, besides the HDTV equivalent of he VCR, is the TIVO like thing where programs with the 'don't copy' bit set can be recorded locally on the machine but in no way can be pulled to any other device or media. Yes, that means propriatary hardware, but this would take care of fair use time shifting problems for the cable people.

    But this is going to the Supreme Court at some point. I'm hoping someone follows the Aussie lead and take DVD region encoding to the Court, and the deCSS case will be taken there as well. The entertainment industry is trying to fight piracy from the wrong end, and instead should be looking more to the problem of offshore data pirates. Once the implications of these 'restrictions' hit JQ Public, there is going to be a major outroar on this.

  • I doubt it will be that easy. by J.C.B. (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:08PM
  • This is good news by pac4854 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:56AM
  • THAT DOES IT!!!!! by zooz (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:08PM
  • Re:Hard drives... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:09PM
  • Re:Shaking Head by s.a.m (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:10PM
  • New life for old computers by Deanasc (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:13PM
  • Re:Question by Skapare (Score:2) Sunday December 24 2000, @02:26AM
  • Re:Intellectual Property Rights by the eric conspiracy (Score:2) Sunday December 24 2000, @04:53AM
  • Sounds fishy to me too... by Betcour (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @03:32AM
  • Re:Congratulations. You are now a criminal. by Deanasc (Score:1) Sunday December 24 2000, @05:04AM
  • Re:Copy-protecting HD's?? by mikethegeek (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @03:47AM
  • Re:Agreements are fine, what about law by cwhicks (Score:1) Sunday December 24 2000, @11:40AM
  • Re:A Note I Sent About The Hard disk Copyprotectio by mikethegeek (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @03:53AM
  • Re:Intellectual Property Rights by fornix (Score:2) Sunday December 24 2000, @12:18PM
  • Failures (Score:3)

    by Veteran (203989) on Saturday December 23 2000, @04:01AM (#543133)
    Copy protection schemes failed the first time around because they made the hardware less reliable and more of a hassle to work with; all copy protection schemes work by 'breaking' the hardware under certain circumstances. Designing a computer so that it works properly is a very difficult thing to do; a computer which works is right at the limit of what humans are able to do. Deliberately sabotaging the equipment makes that job way harder.

    However the situation has changed since then (the 1980's). Several factors have come into play which did not exist back then. The first is in the pre Windows days people expected computers to work more or less correctly, and they noticed when copy protection broke their machines. Most computer users raised on Windows 9X don't have any expectation that computers work reliably ; Windows 9X crashes so often that most people accept computer crashes as a fact of life . Most people have never operated a machine which will run for months without a reboot - and don't believe that such a machine can be built.

    Secondly Windows has conditioned people to expect that doing anything with a computer involves a fight with the computer to get it to do what the person wants; in the simplistic MSDOS days one gave commands to the computer - and the computer did what it was told without argument - so people noticed when the machine failed to do as told - this made copy protection hassles stand out like a sore thumb.

    Under Windows everything you do is a hassle, and people are used to wrestling with their machines to get something done.

    Example:

    • DOS - copy *.doc a:
    • Windows: launch explorer click on the proper directory in the tree - re-sort the directory on file type - holding down the shift key click and drag cursor across all .doc files (assuming you have 'display file types' turned on in Explorer) once the files are selected - right click on one of them - select copy from the pull down menu - go to the other section of Explorer - find the A: drive icon - right click on the drive icon - select 'paste' from the menu - and you are done!

    That is what I mean by 'wrestling with the computer'. Because everything in Windows is a hassle adding more hassle to the process is not very noticeable . Don't expect the average person who never does backups anyway to notice that he now can't do backups. Most businesses don't even do backups.

    The third factor that has changed is the DMCA. Because most people just obey laws without questioning them - the DMCA has the effect of causing most people to just blindly go along with it; sheep don't mind being herded.

    By the way - under the DMCA any hard drive that doesn't have the copy protection scheme is a piece of hardware for circumventing copy protection and thus illegal. That is what the IBM spokesman meant when he said that the scheme would be on all hard drives by next summer - the manufacturers have no choice in the matter.

    Don't count on consumer outrage to stop this mess - it won't be like it was in the 80's. This is going to happen the same way that DVD region coding happened - it will be a fait acompli before most people realize what is going on.

  • Re:Agreements are fine, what about law by squiggleslash (Score:2) Sunday December 24 2000, @12:26PM
  • What next? by jo42 (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @11:57AM
  • Re:Intellectual Property Rights by the eric conspiracy (Score:2) Sunday December 24 2000, @03:43PM
  • direct hardware control has gone by pdundas (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @04:10AM
  • By 2101, these facts will be myths... by mikethegeek (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @11:59AM
  • Re:Well, the gist of the HD article by ripicheep (Score:1) Sunday December 24 2000, @04:11PM
  • Crack anyone? by thorazine (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @04:59AM
  • Re:top secret by Mr. Flibble (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:00PM
  • Re:I'm looking for the Man in the Middle... by Now15 (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @05:06AM
  • Idiotic by Sanity (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:00PM
  • This is the last straw. by Blackheart2 (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @05:16AM
  • *** How to Break It *** by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:00PM
  • You probably will still be able to record... by singularity (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:01PM
  • Who wants to be a Millionaire by ManDude (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:13PM
  • Re:Hard drives - applies to ATA drives...BUY SCSI! by ayden (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:13PM
  • by Greyfox (87712) on Friday December 22 2000, @12:03PM (#543149) Homepage
    If the MPAA was paying attention they'd have noticed that we went through a copy protection phase back in the '80's. A lot of those companies went out of business. If your content is not conviently accessable, people will go elsewhere. And that's before we get the anti-monopoly laws in gear, or do you really think the courts will support legislation which makes it impossible for you to express yourself without the express approval of some media company somewhere? No one ever seems to realize that these controls will make it next to impossible to generate free content outside the corporate infrastructure. Which is a rather convienent side effect. If you're a corporation.
  • what a bunch of shit by Pheersum (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:15PM
  • Re:Man, this is some _serious_ crap by bellings (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:04PM
  • Re:History Repeats Itself by Vulcana (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:15PM
  • Re:Copy-protecting HD's?? by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:16PM
  • Re:Cracked by Zurk (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:17PM
  • Re:Hard drives... by ckedge (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:18PM
  • Now tell me... by niekze (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:18PM
  • Re:Intellectual Property Rights by fornix (Score:2) Sunday December 24 2000, @05:51PM
  • Re:A Note I Sent About The Hard disk Copyprotectio by QuantumG (Score:2) Sunday December 24 2000, @06:52PM
  • Re:A Note I Sent About The Hard disk Copyprotectio by QuantumG (Score:2) Sunday December 24 2000, @06:57PM
  • by lie as cliche (266319) on Saturday December 23 2000, @05:29AM (#543160) Homepage
    Yes, they're forming a new protocol. If they don't manage to get this one into place, they will continue until they do. Finding technological defeats is oodles of fun, but I see it as a quick-fix for a symptom rather than a cure for the actual problem: what to do with an increasingly seller's market which applies strategic pressure on a government to change the rules in its favor. It's now beyond Monopoly... a successful corporate entity can and will terraform its environment to become more favorable to it, rather than adapting to said environment, and as it becomes more and more successful will alter things even more to its liking, in a system of beneficial feedback. Beneficial to it that is... at the expense of all other entities (resembling the model of what the human race has done with "its" environment at the expense of other species).

    In this instance, buying foreign alternatives is also a quick-fix, albeit one that will serve up to a certain point and then run out of steam, as the problem isn't exclusive to the United States. Eventually it will no longer be an option, and what then?

    I offer a permanent defeat. It isn't strictly technological per se, but there is a way to render all legislation harmless to oneself. For those that haven't heard yet, it's sovereign citizenship, a way to opt-out of federal and what most people think of as state government. It's an individual option, not requiring voting for a certain candidate or lobbying for a cause (which means you don't have to wait for a statistically significant portion of the lemmings to wise up). You just opt out, with the appropriate paperwork. You then are able to lawfully live in the united States, but are out of jurisdiction in terms of legislation and so-called income (actually excise) taxes. Nothing is illegal for you. If someone challenges you on that, you're welcome to sue them in court; courts have been consistently backing sovereign citizenship up against johnny-come-latelies such as the IRS. Personally, I'd like to see the outcome of a soveriegn citizen's lawsuit against these people for intentionally crippling a drive to be compliant with legislation of the federal United States, which the courts have declared to be "a legal fiction" with no sound basis in law.

    There are also a few crafty offensive weapons here for anybody who feels like going on the offense. One that springs to mind is a commercial lien against the people setting this attrocity into motion. A commercial lien was designed to give merchants an equitable way to reach justice... it's done out of court, and involves filing papers against specific individuals which damage their credit rating.

    I think the most effective weapon is propogating awareness of sovereign citizenship itself. The mainstream media is too well-heeled to touch it, but as awareness of it continues to snowball, a lot of the assumptions we've previously had about the way things are run and exactly who is working for whom will become challenged. Legislation like this wouldn't even be seriously considered if the majority of people understood that federal legislation binds only entities who admit to engaging in interstate commerce (and most Americans are tricked into it via fraudulent wording in common forms). This also means that n a business not engaged in interstate commerce isn't subject to the legislation either; any sovereign citizen who wants to start churning out non-compliant hard drives is welcome to do so... and depending on the wording of the proposal, all they'd need to do is sell them to a third-party who would distribute them coast-to-coast. It works for every legislation one wants to circumvent... and allows a company in this country to do things which are simple legally impossible for other companies to do. As government contnues to encroach, I imagine that will make the prospect increasingly profitable.

    For more on sovereignty, have a look at my write-up [go.to]. Antishyster [antishyster.com] has more detailed info on commercial liens, among other things.


    "I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate commerce."
    -- J. Edgar Hoover
  • Re:That is so trivial to defeat by Lee Cremeans (Score:1) Sunday December 24 2000, @07:04PM
  • this is a relatively minor issue really by davonds (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @05:29AM
  • Re:All sites with Linux source code will be illega by lie as cliche (Score:1) Saturday December 23 2000, @06:05AM
  • Re:"consumer rights" by Faulty Dreamer (Score:1) Wednesday December 27 2000, @03:53AM
  • Re:Cracked by Shocker69 (Score:1) Wednesday December 27 2000, @05:28AM
  • who wants a check... by jasonu (Score:1) Wednesday December 27 2000, @07:44AM
  • Time for a free alternative... by bero-rh (Score:2) Saturday December 23 2000, @06:21AM
  • Re:Agreements are fine, what about law by cwhicks (Score:1) Thursday December 28 2000, @09:51AM
  • Re:I have a solution. by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:00PM
  • Repeat: "Physical security is no security" by Spoing (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @01:00PM
  • Wishful thinking (Score:3)

    by Nightlight3 (248096) on Friday December 22 2000, @01:01PM (#543171)
    There is no way, even in principle, to get kind of protection they're looking for. The data has to be descrambled on the local machine, decompressed and sent off to the video and audio subsystems. User can have an intercept module sitting anywhere along that path to capture the data, re-compress them and save them to the disk or send them to a network card.

    They keep calling these schemes encryption, when in fact in this situation it cannot be anything but fancy, CPU hungry, data scrambling. You don't have the encryption situation when your key and the "encrypted" data both reside at some point in the hostile hands.

  • by sickman (212256) on Friday December 22 2000, @12:18PM (#543172)
    I think that is a very important point, not just. We tend to blame industry execs for every ridiculous leap away from the fairness of balance of the old copyright system to the heavy-handedness on the side of property owners in the new. However, the blame, really, belongs on the people who let them get away with this, specifically us. Don't like the MPAA? Don't buy their movies. Don't like the RIAA? Don't buy CD's. It is not as hard as it seems to break away from these industry's controls. If they saw that there was a limit to how far they could push these types of technologies before people just walk away, you can bet they would calm down. I think most of us get enough EM radiation at work. Go out, go to a bar, get laid, do something else. We got along fine before these industries made us dependent on their technologies, we can get along fine without them. But we don't need to, all we NEED to do is show them that we're willing to get along without them, and the battle will be ours. Until then, they will continue to win.
  • Re:Where's the Problem by myster0n (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:03PM
  • Re:And another thing... by mikethegeek (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:19PM
  • American west to become vast prison.. by zooz (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:03PM
  • Re:Unbelieable in the past by Don Symes (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:19PM
  • Why copy-protected hard drives are doomed. by MAXOMENOS (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @01:03PM
  • Re:top secret by Bonker (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:19PM
  • wrong solution by 31: (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:19PM
  • Re:De[a]DFAST already exists. It's called cfs! by mikethegeek (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @01:05PM
  • Re:What the F*#*!! by Faulty Dreamer (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:20PM
  • Virtualize (Score:5)

    by Sloppy (14984) on Friday December 22 2000, @01:05PM (#543182) Homepage Journal

    How do you know that you're really talking to the hard drive, instead of a software emulator that makes all hard drives look the same?

    This will only work in absolutely closed systems, where 3rd parties never have the ability to write drivers, and where the CPU doesn't have the ability to trap on I/O. Even MS Windows (as we currently know it, at least) running on x86 is waaay too open and functional for this to ever work.

    Pet Peeve: This is not copyright protection. It's copy protection. The bad guys' goal is to make the public think that these two wildly different terms are synonymous.

    Copyright protection is something that protects copyright. An example of this would be a watermark that identifies who a copy has been sold to, so that if it ever turns up in the public, the copyright infringer can be prosecuted. I don't have any objections to copyright protection.

    Copy protection is a completely different beast: it makes it difficult for people to make copies, even copies that do not infringe copyright. I have objections to copy protection.

    When people (innocently or otherwise) confuse these two terms, they should be corrected.


    ---
  • broadcast too by eostrom (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:20PM
  • Re:Agreements are fine, what about law by CaptJay (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:21PM
  • Re:This is a bad joke, right? by Zurk (Score:1) Friday December 22 2000, @12:21PM
  • I wouldn't worry by QuantumG (Score:2) Friday December 22 2000, @12:22PM
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